We want to clarify the rules for the Idle OOC forum. The biggest confusion seems to be that sometimes people think it is a totally unmoderated free-for-all, but at the very least we feel we need to prevent flaming and interpersonal abuse.
Before writing down a more formal set of rules, we want your feedback. What do you think the Idle OOC rules should look like?
This is a hard question.
"No flaming." That's already part of the general forum rules, isn't it?
"No interpersonal abuse." Where does teasing end and abuse start? Maybe this is the kind of thing where you can't define it, but you know it when you see it.
I've really got nothing else.
IMO, the OOC forum shouldn't be a free-for-all or thought of that way, because we're still a community even if we're not talking about the game.
You can obviously reiterate the forum rules:
Quote from: forum rules
1. Please don't flame. While you can criticize the opinions of other people, do so with respect for them as a fellow human.
2. Do NOT post information that is IC-sensitive. While debates over definitions of this term have raged in the past on the discussion boards, one fact has emerged: some people really prefer to experience things in the game, rather than inadvertently have the experience spoiled for them from reading this board. Therefore, when asking yourself whether or not what you're posting is too IC-sensitive, err on the side of caution.
3. We reserve the right to edit or delete any post or thread.
And not to put too fine a point to it:
4) Avoid offensive material: Demeaning personal comments, racism, religious insensitivity, sexism or bigotry in general are inappropriate. Contentious topics can be discussed, but in an appropriately sensitive and respectful tone.
5) Stay on topic. Just like any other forum thread.
staggerlee's proposed rules look good to me.
Staying on topic is good for the rest of the board, but I don't care if Idle OOC derails a bit. I like how the threads there are a bit more free-form thought.
No offensive material is a big one.
Please for the love of god mark NSFW material in the thread title.
Quote from: Fathi on August 21, 2008, 11:59:37 PM
Please for the love of god mark NSFW material in the thread title.
Or, y'know, don't post it.
Idle OOC is by far the biggest reason I'll probably never introduce anyone to Arm. That, and the level of obscenity that gets randomly thrown in even to many of the non-OOC threads.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 22, 2008, 12:07:36 AM
Quote from: Fathi on August 21, 2008, 11:59:37 PM
Please for the love of god mark NSFW material in the thread title.
Or, y'know, don't post it.
Idle OOC is by far the biggest reason I'll probably never introduce anyone to Arm. That, and the level of obscenity that gets randomly thrown in even to many of the non-OOC threads.
But you're always there so much ;D
Quite honestly, I don't see anything wrong with Idle OOC. Except for some of the flaming. However, I've never seen many outright flames.
Staggerlee summed it up nicely, I believe.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 22, 2008, 12:07:36 AM
Quote from: Fathi on August 21, 2008, 11:59:37 PM
Please for the love of god mark NSFW material in the thread title.
Or, y'know, don't post it
Eh, there's some stuff that's NSFW that really isn't that 'offensive.' I'm not talking about topless photos or anything, here. Just stuff that generally would not be considered work appropriate like that dirty jokes thread, for example.
Quote from: staggerlee on August 21, 2008, 05:15:43 PM
5) Stay on topic. Just like any other forum thread.
Yes, please. The whole board in general could be better at this, but Idle OOC is often unreadable because of off topic diversions.
I think Idle OOC chatter should operate like /b/.
Free-form discussion about absolutely anything, but with moderated restrictions on the super-obscene, which never happens here anyway.
I don't think we should throttle potentially offensive discussions because, let's face is, offensive material is often subjective, and some people actually enjoy participating in those types of discussions.
If you don't like it, stop reading. It's unfortunate that an offended minority is catered to, when there's a silent majority out there that understands that the internets are not serious business.
Now that I've spat out my little manifesto, here's what I'd like to see the rules look like.
1. Do not upload, post, discuss, request, or link to, anything that violates local or United States law. This will be severely punished and strictly enforced.
2. Flaming and trolling is frowned upon. If it gets out of hand, your posting privileges will be revoked. Period. Use your common sense to determine the limit - we are not babysitters.
Pretty simple.
...I actually agree with that. Idle OOC is pretty much how we would talk to each other in Real Life ... at least, it's the way I would. If you don't like it, don't read it, or stay off of that board. Anything that involves the game should be monitored with the utmost care, but Idle OOC ... meh.
That said, I know that that's not going to happen. And that's fine too. The boards are just fine, in a way. Now and then I get annoyed by subject content, like when everybody takes a doodoo on religion as a whole and such (that rankles me more than anything at all, actually), but real racism doesn't tend to surface, and sexism doesn't bother me at all, no matter the sex of the person who starts it. And I always have the option to ignore it, so it never strikes me that anybody should be banned for anything I've ever seen. Although, I'd probably knock them down in RL if they had the balls to say it face to face in the way they do here...
Heh.
Bottom line? Leave it like it is now. I think it's alright.
I don't know about these rules.
If they're pass then I, a Christian, have the right to ask for a thread lock if anyone makes fun of Jesus?
Hmmmm. So everyone is pretty much okay with a Horray for Jesus thread?
And additionally, it's okay to make fun of gays under these rules?
Hmmm. I'm not going to say anything insensitive here.
Dammit, where's Borat when you need him?
Quote from: touringCompl3t3 on August 22, 2008, 08:31:22 PM
I don't know about these rules.
If they're pass then I, a Christian, have the right to ask for a thread lock if anyone makes fun of Jesus?
Hmmmm. So everyone is pretty much okay with a Horray for Jesus thread?
It's pretty simple, man. If something offends you, STOP READING IT.
Quote from: manonfire on August 22, 2008, 09:15:49 PM
It's pretty simple, man. If something offends you, STOP READING IT.
LOL, actually that was my point. But isn't that a more sensible rule than other people are posting? I mean I usually know better than to read threads with titles like:
"Post links to pictures of your tits here"
or
"Who you should vote for in the next election"
or
"Fun things to do with soiled diapers"
and I think that's why I have less trouble than average on these boards. Other people take it more srsly and want a large host of rules to govern behavior.
Granted, I'm not really all that opposed to making more rules.
Meh. I don't really care either way. I'm a stuffy old dude who wouldn't really mind if the boards were cleaned up a bit. But if we institute political correctness, are we really gaining anything?
I say let the high school kids have their fun posting stuff that would tick off their parents if they got caught. Isn't that in the grand spirit of teh interwebs??
Quote from: manonfire on August 22, 2008, 09:15:49 PM
It's pretty simple, man. If something offends you, STOP READING IT.
My God, do you actually have Toadies lyrics on your signature?
Jesus. I saw them in like 1995 and again in 1997.
teh Awesome.
Yeah, behold my greatness.
I'm seeing them next Friday.
The thing is, new players get part of their early impression of the Arm community from the GDB. So we should at least consider that.
I find the game far more offensive to my sensibilities than Idle OOC Discussion.
What's more offensive; a chat about crazy political theories, or getting graphically eviscerated and impregnated by worms?
I like how things are loose, in Idle OOC.
I don't read threads that look like they're going in a direction I've no desire to get involved in.
I quit reading threads that devolve into something I dont' feel like being involved in.
I like having that choice. I'm an adult, I'm capable of saying "Gee, I wont' read this any more." I want the option to say, "Hey, this is sorta interesting, and I feel strongly, so I'm gonna post my two cents!"
And that's my two cents. Wheat penny.
I think it is pretty silly to think about regulating the idle OOC more then putting a disclaimer up for new players in bigger letters. I pretty much steer clear of that forum myself but I also think that it is needed, allows eople to chat as a community and does a LOT to keep non-game related stuff off the game related forums.
Something the old old GDB did not have.
As somebody else said, We are mostly adults or near adults here and are perfectly capable of not reading things we do not want.
The only thing I wish is that I could actually exclude idle OOC from the "show unread posts option" That would be sweet.
Quote from: X-D on August 24, 2008, 02:00:11 AM
The only thing I wish is that I could actually exclude idle OOC from the "show unread posts option" That would be sweet.
Go into OOC, click "mark all as read" and then click "show unread posts"
Sure, it takes 10 extra seconds (less if you, like everyone else but me, is on something faster than 56k dialup), but it's not hard to do either.
Edited to add - Oh and on topic... I agree, if it offends you, don't read it. If it's so horrible, disgusting, or otherwise deemed unsuitable for our GDB, then chances are an Imm will decide so, shut it down, and give the reason why.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 22, 2008, 08:08:02 PM
Idle OOC is pretty much how we would talk to each other in Real Life ... at least, it's the way I would. If you don't like it, don't read it, or stay off of that board. Anything that involves the game should be monitored with the utmost care, but Idle OOC ... meh.
That said, I know that that's not going to happen. And that's fine too. The boards are just fine, in a way. Now and then I get annoyed by subject content, like when everybody takes a doodoo on religion as a whole and such (that rankles me more than anything at all, actually), but real racism doesn't tend to surface, and sexism doesn't bother me at all, no matter the sex of the person who starts it. And I always have the option to ignore it, so it never strikes me that anybody should be banned for anything I've ever seen. Although, I'd probably knock them down in RL if they had the balls to say it face to face in the way they do here...
Heh.
Bottom line? Leave it like it is now. I think it's alright.
Yeah, the only time I take issue with the forums at all is when people think it's okay to make personal jabs at people so long as they aren't outright saying "Fuck You Asshole." A flame is still a flame whether it is direct or an attempt at a subtle attack on someone. People are entitled to their opinions on race, religion, sex, etc. So long as you don't attack me for my opinion I don't care what you post.
Idle OOC rules?
Bah.
One thing that got brought up is itneresting is the moderation of off-topic threads. This is something that takes a lot of moderation effort, and in the case of idle OOC doesn't really help in terms of quality feedback on the game, which we really want... its something we'd consider not doing for Idle OOC. Thoughts?
Quote from: Raesanos on August 25, 2008, 12:28:49 PM
One thing that got brought up is itneresting is the moderation of off-topic threads. This is something that takes a lot of moderation effort, and in the case of idle OOC doesn't really help in terms of quality feedback on the game, which we really want... its something we'd consider not doing for Idle OOC. Thoughts?
This will be met with much approval from the Dioscoreaceae family.
Why not make Idle OOC a section of the forums that you need to register an account to view?
Quote from: mansa on August 25, 2008, 12:36:39 PM
Why not make Idle OOC a section of the forums that you need to register an account to view?
I totally agree with Mansa on this.
Quote from: mansa on August 25, 2008, 12:36:39 PM
Why not make Idle OOC a section of the forums that you need to register an account to view?
Nice, we can rename the forum "Armageddon's Shame"
Though its not actually a bad idea
Quote from: Raesanos on August 25, 2008, 03:37:12 PM
Quote from: mansa on August 25, 2008, 12:36:39 PM
Why not make Idle OOC a section of the forums that you need to register an account to view?
Nice, we can rename the forum "Armageddon's Shame"
Though its not actually a bad idea
Catchy name, too! ;)
There are other forums I would suggest to also, 'hide'.
Also, I want to be the moderator of Armageddon's Shame.
I like Idle OOC how it is.
It isnt so moderated that it becomes a boring "Happy Rainbow Paradise of Niceness" to the point that people are sugar-coating their thoughts so much that you never get their real thoughts.
I dont want to read a bunch of stuff that is posted in a way that the poster was so self-conciouss over being "Twitted" that they fail to put any true emotion into their posts.
Maybe Big Brother could just step down for Idle OOC purposes.
I like it how it is.
Sometimes when I want to say..."Look shit-face, go eat a maggot, you are a stupid."...Or when I deserve for someone to tell me the same thing...It doesnt happen.
I think thats a good level of moderation.
We cant be openly blatantly vulgar and rude to one another in most cases. Most of us wouldnt anyways. I think thats enough.
If it ever gets to the point that specific groups of individuals can call down the..."We are offended" flag on someone who didnt blatantly call them a "Fuck-face douchebag."...I will just stop posting.
(I know you guys will miss me so much)
If you cant run with the big dogs, stay on the porch. The world is a tough place, everything you encounter isnt going to make you feel rainbow bright inside, and thats just the way it is. Stop reading if you dont like it. Typically, noone is attacking you here anyways. We dont tolerate personal attacks. Atleast blatant ones.
Attacks on groups, ideas, thoughts, and beliefs....Yes, we have those in plenty. Personal attacks, we dont have those.
We have people who chose to take attacks on their thoughts, beliefs, and ideas, and groups personally...But that is because they are often too sensitive and in general...They need to fucking grow up and realize its a GDB for a fantasy game. In short...Get over it kiddo.
We dont have personal attacks here and I dont think we need moderation beyond that point for OOC purposes.
Because Desertman is tough and generally good-humored and can take it I say this: I would suggest a level of moderation that crimps Desertman's style by an additional 20-35%.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 25, 2008, 04:17:30 PM
Because Desertman is tough and generally good-humored and can take it I say this: I would suggest a level of moderation that crimps Desertman's style by an additional 20-35%.
We already had that instated...but the drop was by about 80-85%.
Desertchoad to Desertman.
Dessert man IS 50% of ooc. ;)
Quote from: Raesanos on August 25, 2008, 12:28:49 PM
One thing that got brought up is itneresting is the moderation of off-topic threads. This is something that takes a lot of moderation effort, and in the case of idle OOC doesn't really help in terms of quality feedback on the game, which we really want... its something we'd consider not doing for Idle OOC. Thoughts?
I can agree with this, though I think quick scans and the ability to report a post still are needed, just in case anything that deals too closely with IC info needs to be knocked out. Some topics in OOC get way out of bounds dealing with IRL. That said, we can always stop reading. I also think that the community as a whole knows when to stop before it gets too bad. Individuals can choose to do bad, for instance, but most of us can choose to stop responding and reading a thread that goes too far.
I have to do it all the time with religious threads. Otherwise, I'd be twitted permenantly.
My biggest concern would be certain groups determining what "Bad" and "Good" were and then other people getting the Twit Shaft for it.
Quote from: Desertman on August 25, 2008, 05:21:52 PM
My biggest concern would be certain groups determining what "Bad" and "Good" were and then other people getting the Twit Shaft for it.
Not if the moderators moderate the post and then send the original post to the Staff, who would still choose who is getting the Twit Shaft or not.
Quote from: Malken on August 25, 2008, 05:24:04 PM
Quote from: Desertman on August 25, 2008, 05:21:52 PM
My biggest concern would be certain groups determining what "Bad" and "Good" were and then other people getting the Twit Shaft for it.
Not if the moderators moderate the post and then send the original post to the Staff, who would still choose who is getting the Twit Shaft or not.
Yeah, I could buy that.
But only if after the origional post went to staff and if it was determined "Not Twit Worthy" the origional post was put back up.
I would hate to see a stream of "Moderators" moderating things based on their own personal beliefs and what personally offends them, only to have the staff turn around and say..."Wait a minute, thats not twit-worthy. Sure its a little dick-ish, but he wasnt attacking anyone personally."
So moderate it if you want, but if the staff determines its not twit-worthy, it need to put back the way you found it.
I could go for that.
I think that the ugly, offensive free for all that unmoderated forums tend to become would probably have a profoundly negative effect on the community, if racist, sexist or otherwise offensive posts are allowed to flourish I can imagine I'd lose a lot of respect for the posters responsible very quickly, and let's not pretend that feelings like that don't carry through to their personality on the gdb as a whole or how comfortable individuals feel partaking in a game together.
In short, we're here to play a game together. There are plenty of unmoderated forums where you can be as offensive as you want, why do we need to ruin the GDB by doing it here?
Quote from: staggerlee on August 25, 2008, 05:29:08 PM
I think that the ugly, offensive free for all that unmoderated forums tend to become would probably have a profoundly negative effect on the community, if racist, sexist or otherwise offensive posts are allowed to flourish I can imagine I'd lose a lot of respect for the posters responsible very quickly, and let's not pretend that feelings like that don't carry through to their personality on the gdb as a whole or how comfortable individuals feel partaking in a game together.
In short, we're here to play a game together. There are plenty of unmoderated forums where you can be as offensive as you want, why do we need to ruin the GDB by doing it here?
I dont find anything wrong with a post that expresses racism, sexism, or otherwise offensive material...So long as that post is not used to directly and blatantly attack another individual on a personal level.
In short, we're here to play a game together. There are plenty of sugar-coated forums where you can be as rainbow-bright as you want. Why do we need to fake and fluff the GDB by overmoderating here?
Quote from: Desertman on August 25, 2008, 05:33:15 PM
Quote from: staggerlee on August 25, 2008, 05:29:08 PM
I think that the ugly, offensive free for all that unmoderated forums tend to become would probably have a profoundly negative effect on the community, if racist, sexist or otherwise offensive posts are allowed to flourish I can imagine I'd lose a lot of respect for the posters responsible very quickly, and let's not pretend that feelings like that don't carry through to their personality on the gdb as a whole or how comfortable individuals feel partaking in a game together.
In short, we're here to play a game together. There are plenty of unmoderated forums where you can be as offensive as you want, why do we need to ruin the GDB by doing it here?
I dont find anything wrong with a post that expresses racism, sexism, or otherwise offensive material...So long as that post is not used to directly and blatantly attack another individual on a personal level.
In short, we're here to play a game together. There are plenty of sugar-coated forums where you can be as rainbow-bright as you want. Why do we need to fake and fluff the GDB by overmoderating here?
There's no sense of community on the GDB.
I know I don't care about 95% of you, which is something strange for me because I usually care about the community I'm involved with in other games and other internet places I'm involved in.
I wish I cared more about the people I spend half of my days playing with.
I love you, Malken.
LOVE ME BACK.
Quote from: Desertman on August 25, 2008, 05:33:15 PM
Quote from: staggerlee on August 25, 2008, 05:29:08 PM
I think that the ugly, offensive free for all that unmoderated forums tend to become would probably have a profoundly negative effect on the community, if racist, sexist or otherwise offensive posts are allowed to flourish I can imagine I'd lose a lot of respect for the posters responsible very quickly, and let's not pretend that feelings like that don't carry through to their personality on the gdb as a whole or how comfortable individuals feel partaking in a game together.
In short, we're here to play a game together. There are plenty of unmoderated forums where you can be as offensive as you want, why do we need to ruin the GDB by doing it here?
I dont find anything wrong with a post that expresses racism, sexism, or otherwise offensive material...So long as that post is not used to directly and blatantly attack another individual on a personal level.
It's pretty easy for white males to be okay with sexism and racism. But that's not the point. Your comfort level is not the same as everyone else's comfort level.
Quote
In short, we're here to play a game together. There are plenty of sugar-coated forums where you can be as rainbow-bright as you want. Why do we need to fake and fluff the GDB by overmoderating here?
This is a game, first and foremost. There are a lot of people that aren't going to be comfortable in a community that allows flagrant bigotry or personal attacks of the sort that tend to happen when forums are unmoderated. You need regulations and guidelines on the forum so that you can actually attract and keep players.
Why the overwhelming need to fight for the right to be an asshole on a public forum, even at the cost of players?
I care about my community. There are a few people I would like to meet a great deal. There are some of you I would like to knock down to size just one time, to help you if you've never had a knock down before. And most of you, I just like, which is more than I can say for most people I meet day to day.
I wish that people could restrain themselves from innane topics of their own accord and not push the lines so far. It's not that hard, frankly. If more folks were mature enough to keep really stupid thoughts attacking sensitive topics to themselves, the whole world would be a better place.
Most of the stuff that needs moderation is nothing but rehashing of intolerance and hatred. It's that part that saddens me. Debate and arguments don't. I don't care if you don't agree with me - I do care when you tell me that I'm an idiot for thinking differently than you. Grown folks monitor theirselves, and 90% of you wouldn't talk like that to another person face to face. We like to call ourselves mature for playing a thinking game like Armageddon. Well, act like it. Personally, I can without question say that if OOC becomes unmoderated, there will be a point in time when I avoid it completely for a lengthy time.
With such a choice, to not moderate OOC, I would ask Staff to offer me a way to collapse the OOC forum so that I can not see it at all, or options in profile to veiw or not to view certian forums, as though they don't exist.
Quote from: staggerlee
It's pretty easy for white males to be okay with sexism and racism. But that's not the point. Your comfort level is not the same as everyone else's comfort level.
Now, If I were a white male, I might know what you talking about.
But I'm not a white male. I'm a halfbreed. (Caucasian, Native American)
Also, making an assumption about the general mindset and offense levels of a gender and race based solely on their gender and race is racist and sexist in my book and find it offensive. I believe your post should be moderated due to the fact that I personally find this to be racist and sexist and such it has offended me on my own personal levels.
(I dont really, I could care less. But see how having to conform to someone else's sense of "Offended" can really start to over-do the whole..."That offended me" shit?)
Quote from: staggerlee on August 25, 2008, 05:52:38 PM
There are a lot of people that aren't going to be comfortable in a community that allows flagrant bigotry or personal attacks of the sort that tend to happen when forums are unmoderated.
Please see my post. I specifically deviate the difference between "Personal Attacks" and Non-Personal attacks. I am not for personal attacks. Freedom of speech and expression yes, but not when your application of the two personally and blatantly attack someone.
There is a difference between saying...
"I believe females in general are not as strong as males."
And
"Hey you skank!!! Why dont you get over here and wash dishes, shouldnt you be barefoot and pregnant?"
You see, there is a big difference between sexism as a personal attack, and not as a personal attack. The same goes for racism and all other "offensive" aspects of conduct.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 25, 2008, 05:54:06 PM
I care about my community. There are a few people I would like to meet a great deal. There are some of you I would like to knock down to size just one time, to help you if you've never had a knock down before. And most of you, I just like, which is more than I can say for most people I meet day to day.
I wish that people could restrain themselves from innane topics of their own accord and not push the lines so far. It's not that hard, frankly. If more folks were mature enough to keep really stupid thoughts attacking sensitive topics to themselves, the whole world would be a better place.
Most of the stuff that needs moderation is nothing but rehashing of intolerance and hatred. It's that part that saddens me. Debate and arguments don't. I don't care if you don't agree with me - I do care when you tell me that I'm an idiot for thinking differently than you. Grown folks monitor theirselves, and 90% of you wouldn't talk like that to another person face to face. We like to call ourselves mature for playing a thinking game like Armageddon. Well, act like it. Personally, I can without question say that if OOC becomes unmoderated, there will be a point in time when I avoid it completely for a lengthy time.
With such a choice, to not moderate OOC, I would ask Staff to offer me a way to collapse the OOC forum so that I can not see it at all, or options in profile to veiw or not to view certian forums, as though they don't exist.
Very good post.
I dont agree with 7DV on almost all topics, but he has never once said..."Hey Desertman, you are a fucking idiot."
He always disagrees with me, and he always does it in a way that is not a personal attack.
I try to be the same way.
This is what I'm talking about. We can disagree with each other, we can even dislike each other, but we can still be relatively respectful to one another.
I think the GDB we have now is pretty good about moderating its self. I very seldom see anyone personally attack someone else.
Quote from: Desertman on August 25, 2008, 06:05:36 PM
I very seldom see anyone personally attack someone else.
I've seen you do it, but it seems like you don't think you have. The question is, who's right? That's what moderation is for.
Personally, I'm supportive of the requirements of ARM community over the "free speech rights" of individuals.
I don't always disagree with you!!
Wait, I just did, didn't I?
*sigh*
;D
Honestly, I actually share a lot of Desert's thoughts on the world in general, like for instance that mess with the mental patient protectors or whatever that was. That was dumb on their part.
I tend to differ with Desert once he starts rampaging on topics like religion and starts goading other posters (most generally female posters in regards to sexism). I think he's funny more times than I'll admit, but he just has this ... thing about him that makes me feel a little off. It's not creepy or anything, and there's a good chance that IRL we could probably manage to get along. Shit, we might even manage to be friendly, because IRL I'll argue with him without end, and call him all sorts of names, just like I suspect he'd call me all sorts of names. And IRL, he probably wouldn't be quite so ready to say something really off key and completely antogonistic, the same as I'd be unlikely to do.
But the internet offers us the freedom to think less and say more, and it can tend to cause us to make mistakes in judgement. Annonimity gives us freedom to be seperated from reaction, and in a way, is the reason we no longer have the personal relationships people did in years gone by. It has helped us become colder, harder, less friendly, less caring, detached ... perhaps 'helped us' is an oxymoron.
Tend yourselves, people, and make yourselves at least act like you care about the other members of this community we make a part of our lives. We are select, frankly. It takes a certain amount of intelligence, maturity and a certian niche interest to stay here. We are smart, we are dedicated (as a whole), and we are alike. Let's act like we are, and let's cherish each other in, at the least, a fellow soul way.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 25, 2008, 06:15:22 PM
Quote from: Desertman on August 25, 2008, 06:05:36 PM
I very seldom see anyone personally attack someone else.
I've seen you do it, but it seems like you don't think you have. The question is, who's right? That's what moderation is for.
Personally, I'm supportive of the requirements of ARM community over the "free speech rights" of individuals.
And that is the glory of it.
I'm sure you have seen me do it. I have done it. So, if you didnt see me do it, trust me, its been done, I can point you to some links. Very likely many more times than once actually.
Most of the time, I think I am being subtle enough that people wont notice. Sometimes I fully expect it to get moderated.
I am not the model poster. BY FAR. That is not the point I am trying to make.
The point I am trying to make is the folks here are typically well-behaved enough that we dont need a Big Brother type moderation system in place.
You may have seen me "Personally Attack Someone"....
But to what extent?
I have never once said..."Hey Manonfire, go fuck yourself you nasty filthy whore. I want you to die and burn in hell and also, I'm going to rape your dog!!!"
(I used Manonfire, because 1. He isnt a sensitive shit. 2. I dont mean it. and 3. He wouldnt give a fuck if I did mean it.)
That is the type of personal attack I am talking about. Not me making snarky comments about your sex or religion or gender aimed at your sex, religion, and gender, instead of specifically at you.
There is a big difference between that and snarky veiled quips. I am fully of snarky veiled quips, however, I am not full of rude personal attacks.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 25, 2008, 06:19:30 PMShit, we might even manage to be friendly, because IRL I'll argue with him without end, and call him all sorts of names, just like I suspect he'd call me all sorts of names. And IRL, he probably wouldn't be quite so ready to say something really off key and completely antogonistic, the same as I'd be unlikely to do.
I once told (actually more than once) a Christian friend of mine I would "Fuck his Jesus in the ass with a Bible.".
I can honestly and without a doubt tell you that I have said much WORSE things to my RL friends than I say to you folks.
Its just a guy "buddy" thing I guess. We say awful shit to each other then laugh about it.
You see, the difference is how that comes across in text and how it comes across in person.
You people seem to think that a lot of the time I am sitting behind my keyboard burning a Bible and masturbating before I shoot my load onto its ashes while I type these things to you about your ideas, beliefs, ect....
I'm not...Most of the time I am laughing and getting a real kick out of "What I can come up with."
I could get along with anyone because I am a good-natured and easy-to-get-along-with-fellow. Some of you seem to interpret me as a "Dick" when in fact I probably just have an entirely different sense of humor than you do. Or atleast a sense of humor that doesnt translate well in text.
Bottom line, I don't think you should have any say on this, Desertman.
Quote from: Malken on August 25, 2008, 06:28:31 PM
Bottom line, I don't think you should have any say on this, Desertman.
You are entitled to that opinion and I appreciate you expressing it in such a way that was not a personal attack.
I whole heartedly respect your opinion though I will say that I am glad you have no authority on the situation.
Quote from: Desertman on August 25, 2008, 06:27:39 PM
Its just a guy "buddy" thing I guess. We say awful shit to each other then laugh about it.
You see, the difference is how that comes across in text and how it comes across in person.
Precisely. This is nearly entirely accurate.
Though I think that we'd figure out what was ok to say around each other and what wasn't. 'Cause I woulda hit you for that one. And no, that don't make me no better Christain. But I woulda sinned for that one.
Heh.
Quote from: Malken on August 25, 2008, 05:40:14 PM
There's no sense of community on the GDB.
I know I don't care about 95% of you, which is something strange for me because I usually care about the community I'm involved with in other games and other internet places I'm involved in.
I wish I cared more about the people I spend half of my days playing with.
*Tear*
I care about you. If for no better reason than I find you entertaining to play with IG. Isnt that what really matters?
I can always count your GDB personality to disagree with mine...As such I can always depend on you to offer up some good bit of this or that for me to reply to, and there you have it, I have found a silver-lining to the cloud.
Sometimes, you just have to look at the glass half full, instead of half empty.
We dont even agree with each other, and I appreciate the fact that I still have you around. Without your oposition, I would have one less person to reply to.
Cant you atleast care about me as much?
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 25, 2008, 06:34:03 PM
Quote from: Desertman on August 25, 2008, 06:27:39 PM
Its just a guy "buddy" thing I guess. We say awful shit to each other then laugh about it.
You see, the difference is how that comes across in text and how it comes across in person.
Precisely. This is nearly entirely accurate.
Though I think that we'd figure out what was ok to say around each other and what wasn't. 'Cause I woulda hit you for that one. And no, that don't make me no better Christain. But I woulda sinned for that one.
Heh.
Well obviously lol. I wouldnt say something like that to someone I just met IRL. These are buddies I have had since I was a small child.
I generally treat all of you on here the way I would treat a really good friend of mine. So, I dont see what the problem is. I'm just real friendly with you people.
And I grew up in East Texas, I am completely accustom to that brand of Christianity.
Quote from: Desertman on August 25, 2008, 06:27:39 PM
Its just a guy "buddy" thing I guess. We say awful shit to each other then laugh about it.
The "guy buddy thing" is not necessarily the best standard of conduct for this community. The reason being that we do not have just "guy buddies" in the community, nor do we wish to attract just "guy buddy" types as players. I'm 100% certain (yes, I have the data) that I'm not the only woman who has been massively offended at your (and others') conduct on the forums toward myself and other women. Sometimes the stuff I've seen has been enough to make me feel like quitting the game; and the only thing that keeps me going is having an active character I enjoy.
The OOC forums should not be an obstacle to new players or minority-group players (women are a minority group in ARM). Currently, they often are.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 25, 2008, 06:41:32 PM
Quote from: Desertman on August 25, 2008, 06:27:39 PM
Its just a guy "buddy" thing I guess. We say awful shit to each other then laugh about it.
The "guy buddy thing" is not necessarily the best standard of conduct for this community. The reason being that we do not have just "guy buddies" in the community, nor do we wish to attract just "guy buddy" types as players. I'm 100% certain (yes, I have the data) that I'm not the only woman who has been massively offended at your (and others') conduct on the forums toward myself and other women. Sometimes the stuff I've seen has been enough to make me feel like quitting the game; and the only thing that keeps me going is having an active character I enjoy.
The OOC forums should not be an obstacle to new players or minority-group players (women are a minority group in ARM). Currently, they often are.
And for all this, you're still reading his posts.
Sorta like a car crash, isn't it?
Is ignoring someone -really- that hard?
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 25, 2008, 06:41:32 PM
Quote from: Desertman on August 25, 2008, 06:27:39 PM
Its just a guy "buddy" thing I guess. We say awful shit to each other then laugh about it.
The "guy buddy thing" is not necessarily the best standard of conduct for this community. The reason being that we do not have just "guy buddies" in the community, nor do we wish to attract just "guy buddy" types as players. I'm 100% certain (yes, I have the data) that I'm not the only woman who has been massively offended at your (and others') conduct on the forums toward myself and other women. Sometimes the stuff I've seen has been enough to make me feel like quitting the game; and the only thing that keeps me going is having an active character I enjoy.
The OOC forums should not be an obstacle to new players or minority-group players (women are a minority group in ARM). Currently, they often are.
I am often offended by the fact that you are so easily offended.
When you become offended by something that I believe isnt offensive, I take that to mean that you believe I am a mean and hateful person.
I take that to mean that you are saying..."Hey Desertman, I think you are a mean and hateful person."
Being called a mean and hateful person offends me. Perhaps you shouldnt post that I offend you? It offends me, because I dont think that I am offending you.
Thats all bullshit of course...
But we cant cater to every single minority group that comes along. The internet is a melting-pot of minorities and majorities....When it all comes down to brass tacks...You have one group...."Internet People"
We are all..."Internet People"...If you say..."I think halfbreed males are stupid."
I am not going to take personal offense...that has nothing to do with the internet personality I present you with.
If you say..."I think Desertman is stupid."
Thats completely different. That is a personal attack.
When you come onto the internet you take the risk of having your foundations shaken. Thats the real world.
But until someone says..."Hey Gimf (something horribly personally offensive)."
Get over it. If a random post on a GDB for a fantasy game hurts you so deeply IRL, maybe you really should consider avoiding it. It would seem that a person
that emotionally fragile should really be very careful about the places the frequent, the internet being a major red flag for that scenario.
Desert, you have a point, in a way. But so does Gim, and her point is more real.
You (and everyone else here) should be working on preserving this game and enhancing its appeal. If the way you want to talk hurts the game, why wouldn't you have a thought along the lines of, "Hey, I like this game, and I want it to grow. Let's give off that good image. I don't have to actually be nice, but I can keep my offensive viewpoints (and you know they are offensive, and you revel in that fact - let's not kid ourselves here, Desertman) off of the boards and express them instead in AIM and IRL."
For that reason alone, you should consider curbing your ways. This isn't your playground, it's ours, and we need more kids for tag. It doesn't hurt to share the sandbox now and then.
Quote from: Desertman on August 25, 2008, 06:49:11 PM
Get over it. If a random post on a GDB for a fantasy game hurts you so deeply IRL, maybe you really should consider avoiding it. It would seem that a person that emotionally fragile should really be very careful about the places the frequent, the internet being a major red flag for that scenario.
Maybe you should be the one to get over it, is my point. Why do I have to change something, and you get to keep on doing whatever you want to do?
I'm also amused you're trying to paint me as emotionally fragile. The fact that you are offensive doesn't logically lead to the conclusion that I'm over-sensitive.
Here's an extended analogy for you guys:
Imagine ARM as a village where we all live. We all work at the same place, that's the main forums. On the main forums, because there are some rules, we're all pretty polite together and we stay on topic because that's the job.
The OOC forums are the bar where we can go hang out after work. There's only one bar in our village, so if you want to hang out, that's where you've got to go. There are no other options.
Currently, the bar can be very scary at times. There's a group of rowdy young men who feel like they should be able to say anything to anyone they want, and occasionally they corner someone...often a woman, and do just that. It's very intimidating. Even just seeing it happen once, to one woman, can be enough to make other women shut up. Some women don't come to the bar anymore due to this.
My question is: How come only the guys get to relax at the bar, and if the women want to hang out they have to be OK with the abuse?
Clever argument technique, Gimf. Equating to what Desertman does to misogyny is a bit despicable though.
Of course, Desertman can get pretty annoying. I would definitely like to see some checks and balances so that he can't spew his blowjob/sex stuff all over the place. It gets old.
Quote from: Yam on August 25, 2008, 07:05:52 PM
Clever argument technique, Gimf. Equating to what Desertman does to misogyny is a bit despicable though.
I have no idea if he's a misogynist or not. I think he picks the target that's available, and we have more women here than we do people of other minority groups he likes to be an asshole about.
I agree with 7DV and Choad on this topic...so far.
As to anybody being offended.....I fail to see how anybody could get offended by anything typed on a message board by a basicly faceless person who knows how many miles away etc etc. What I normally see with people who do seem to get offended on the GDB is people who simply cannot stand the fact that other people have differing views and opinions then they do and for some reason consider that wrong and a personal affront.
I also think that the GDB as a whole is already far over moderated.
Quote from: X-D on August 25, 2008, 07:10:49 PM
I agree with 7DV and Choad on this topic...so far.
Err, homie ... :o ... Choad and I like, completely disagree! How can you agree with both of us?!?
Unless you're saying that you agree with Choad's view on life but also agree with me that this isn't really the place to say
everything that pops to mind, and that people should act like adults and monitor themselves for the good of the game, as opposed to the good of themselves.
That, I can understand.
Another possible solution is to have the forum software upgraded to the newest version, which allows users to ignore other users' posts. I still think the OOC forum would need to have some moderation, but I would be overjoyed just to be able to actually put Desertman and a few other posters on ignore.
Another possible solution is, instead of having the Immortals spend their time installing new software, easily offended posters could educate themselves on the intricacies of ignoring posts.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 25, 2008, 07:16:17 PM
Another possible solution is to have the forum software upgraded to the newest version, which allows users to ignore other users' posts. I still think the OOC forum would need to have some moderation, but I would be overjoyed just to be able to actually put Desertman and a few other posters on ignore.
As long as I could just ignore the part where he talks about his wife or politics or science or religion or sex.
Everything else is fine.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 25, 2008, 07:16:01 PM
... this isn't really the place to say everything that pops to mind, and that people should act like adults and monitor themselves for the good of the game, as opposed to the good of themselves.
People need to do that
regardless of moderation. The Staff aren't our parents.
The advantage to rules for the forum is that we're no longer relying on that subjective sense of what is and is not offensive as Desertman has so frequently pointed out; instead it would be laid out in a document that can be referenced, thus avoiding having the staff review everything on a case by case basis. Make the line of what is and is not appropriate on the forum
objective rather than
subjective. Having the staff review complaints on an individual basis would be more work for them and require that they actually start mediating, not just moderating. That's no good at all.
I can honestly say I have never been "offended" by a GDB post from anyone.
Even the ones that are hateful towards me.
You know why?
Because its a GDB post. I'm sorry, but I will never have the emotional make-up to understand how that could ever offend anyone. So I guess I will never understand your point of view.
I lack the ability to be offended by an internet GDB post, I just..lack it. I'm sorry, but because of this, I can never comprehend where you are coming from.
I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree.
QuoteUnless you're saying that you agree with Choad's view on life but also agree with me that this isn't really the place to say everything that pops to mind, and that people should act like adults and monitor themselves for the good of the game, as opposed to the good of themselves.
Both...AND the ability to agree to disagree. The ability to understand that other people have differing views while still continuing on with your life. I could be wrong, but I think both of you at least understand that in the end, It simply does not matter.
(Edit) Blinks, I think me and Dman just said the exact same thing.
I think the Idle OOC should be moderated very liberally as we are a liberal community.
Murder. Corruption. Betrayl. Hell we should add lust after what I've heard about you guyzes IG romps.
It astounds me that playing a game of this nature people on her can claim to get offended easily or feel tentative about religion and so on.
Regardless, I say let's keep it liberal.
No posts of a racist nature.
No posts of a sexist nature.
No posts that are offensive or target people based on sexual preferance.
I do not want to see the GDB lock down from what I gather we are a very liberal people here, if we weren't we couldn't play this game that is actually surrounded on prejudice.
Quote from: ale six on August 21, 2008, 07:22:38 PM
Staying on topic is good for the rest of the board, but I don't care if Idle OOC derails a bit. I like how the threads there are a bit more free-form thought.
No offensive material is a big one.
There is no way to define this, different people are more easily offended and by different things.
Speaking as a moderator, if someone gets offended by a post, and reports it, and there is a rational reason for them to be offended (racist/sexist comments, profanity, threats, flames, trolling), I will very likely moderate the post.
I do not like doing this, because I am an Armageddon Storyteller and not an Internet Policeman. But this is a game. Players should be having fun and enjoying our community, not being offended by other players on the GDB. I do not see the GDB as a place to prove how macho/intelligent/argumentative you are, or as No Rules Internets Arena. It is primarily a place to discuss Armageddon, and secondarily a place for players of Armageddon to come together and form community.
There are plenty of other forums on the internet. It isn't really a goal of the GDB to be a place to let people say whatever they feel like no matter how offensive. The goal of this place is to let all the players have fun.
Quote from: Rahnevyn on August 25, 2008, 08:31:25 PM
Speaking as a moderator, if someone gets offended by a post, and reports it, and there is a rational reason for them to be offended (racist/sexist comments, profanity, threats, flames, trolling), I will very likely moderate the post.
I do not like doing this, because I am an Armageddon Storyteller and not an Internet Policeman. But this is a game. Players should be having fun and enjoying our community, not being offended by other players on the GDB. I do not see the GDB as a place to prove how macho/intelligent/argumentative you are, or as No Rules Internets Arena. It is primarily a place to discuss Armageddon, and secondarily a place for players of Armageddon to come together and form community.
There are plenty of other forums on the internet. It isn't really a goal of the GDB to be a place to let people say whatever they feel like no matter how offensive. The goal of this place is to let all the players have fun.
I agree with -THIS-.
You can't agree with Rahnevyn, -I- agree with Rahnevyn; and as previously established, you and I don't agree. Are you sure you didn't misread?
NO -I- AGREE WITH RAHNEVYN.
I'm Rahnevyn!
I think we all think the same thing, to be perfectly honest, most of the times.
It's the mark of a good Staffer to subtly show us that fact.
As a result of this thread, I hope I see more self-policing from our posters.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 25, 2008, 08:42:29 PM
You can't agree with Rahnevyn, -I- agree with Rahnevyn; and as previously established, you and I don't agree. Are you sure you didn't misread?
Does the I agreed first dance.You will have to agree with...Sanvean or something, Rahnevyn is MINE!!!
The brown-haired man says towards the Rahnevyn, wiggling his eyebrows, "Its just you and me. Forget all of those other GDB personalities. Take a stroll over into Desertman's garden of lurve."
No flaming, no IC info, no . . . illicit links.
I think those rules cover everything, really. It might be nice to have them expanded and explained somewhere, like a sticky post in OOC chatter, just for clarity.
1. No flaming. No overt flaming, no subtle flaming. Most people understand not to flame in an obvious way, but some don't realize that subtle jabs can still be flaming. Does attacking a sex, race, religion or other identifiable group without attacking particular posters who are known to be part of that group, constitute flaming? I don't know! Possibly include examples.
2. No sensitive IC info. This should be obvious, but it would be nice to have more clarity in what is forbidden IC info, and what is permisible.
3. No illicit materials or links to them. I've never really understood this one, and it makes me nervous. (http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p104/AngelaChristine_2006/Smilies/action-smiley-053.gif) It wasn't one of the original rules, it just mysteriously appeared one day. Illicit? So . . . no tubgirl? No warez? No horse porn? No torrents? What kind of illicit materials are we talking about?
I don't think excessive moderation of the OOC forum is a good use of staff time. Staff suffer enough without having to read every post in the chatter forum. ::) For the most part chatter moderation should rely on people reporting posts that seem to break the rules, or the spirit of the rules. That still forces them to play internet policeman, :( but at least it cuts down on the volume.
Most chatter infractions are probably not worth getting hit with the twit stick, at least not permanently.
AC -
Child Pr0n
Beastiality.
Those pictures are illegal in some countries, like Canada, for example.
Can we move the OOC board to a different url? I can never resist to click on the little blue icon when there are new posts in the OOC board, but honestly I'd rather not even look at them. It's typically just a bunch of conflicting opinions about meaningless topics that often raise peoples' blood pressure. Dividing the board into an "IC" and "OOC" zone seems more professional to me.
I propose the following:
www.zalanthas.org/gdb = Armageddon General Discussion Board
www.zalanthas.org/gdb/ooc = Armageddon OOC Board
I have a feeling that a lot of people aren't going to like this idea. I have a feeling that they'll say "Well, just don't click on the OOC link". For me, it's that will power I lack. So, I want the OOC board moved away so that willpower check is never in question. Conversely, I feel similar about the moderation of the boards. While I don't want to see a bunch of nasty, demeaning, or abhorrent content, sometimes "offensive" content can be very funny and entertaining. I would rather see people adhere to a higher standard (another willpower check) than be subject to moderation. Moderation is not freedom. However, freedom (in this case the ability to post) can be taken away if the rules are broken.
Am I the only one who finds it laughable that we, the players of ArmageddonMUD, are afraid we're going to scare potential players away by being offensive on the GDB?
I don't think the type of person that would cry and run away after seeing Desertman's posts is our demographic, really.
Quote from: manonfire on August 25, 2008, 07:20:14 PM
Another possible solution is, instead of having the Immortals spend their time installing new software, easily offended posters could educate themselves on the intricacies of ignoring posts.
+1
Quote from: Mood on August 26, 2008, 11:54:29 AMAm I the only one who finds it laughable that we, the players of ArmageddonMUD, are afraid we're going to scare potential players away by being offensive on the GDB?
It's a fairly tasty sort of irony.
Something tells me that the type of person who's easily offended wouldn't last long in this sort of a MUD to begin with.
You guys have heard of IC/OOC separation, right? There's a huge difference between being OK with IC offensive material, and being OK with OOC offensive material. It shouldn't be a requirement to play ARM that people have to deal with OOCly offensive stuff.
Quote from: mansa on August 26, 2008, 10:44:16 AM
AC -
Child Pr0n
Beastiality.
Those pictures are illegal in some countries, like Canada, for example.
Beastiality is illegal in Canada?
Brandon
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 26, 2008, 12:02:36 PM
You guys have heard of IC/OOC separation, right? There's a huge difference between being OK with IC offensive material, and being OK with OOC offensive material. It shouldn't be a requirement to play ARM that people have to deal with OOCly offensive stuff.
Its not. Noone requires anyone to click to OOC Chatter link.
In fact. The OOC chatter link actually stands for...."Out of Character".
As in, not related to the game.
I played Arm for a couple of years without ever even reading the GDB. I didnt even realize we had a discussion board.
Come to find out, its not a requirement at all. How about that.
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on August 26, 2008, 11:57:51 AM
Quote from: Mood on August 26, 2008, 11:54:29 AMAm I the only one who finds it laughable that we, the players of ArmageddonMUD, are afraid we're going to scare potential players away by being offensive on the GDB?
It's a fairly tasty sort of irony.
Something tells me that the type of person who's easily offended wouldn't last long in this sort of a MUD to begin with.
That's like saying that I shouldn't have read American Psycho because I'm not a violent misogynist psychopath. Or that if I'm willing to read the book, I should be equally willing to watch it happen in real life, or hear someone speak glowingly of how they want to re-enact it. The logic doesn't carry through.
Speaking for myself... I view Armageddon as a game, the forums are not a game. Things that happen ic are ic, and I'm more than content to leave them there, sometimes I very much enjoy a certain amount of violence, grit and brutality in my fiction. When the bullshit starts piling up ooc that's another story and I'd be more than willing to leave a game that no longer presented a comfortable ooc atmosphere.
I've got absolutely no interest in playing a game that's community is restricted entirely to a bunch of young men that enjoy behaving like assholes. The ooc environment should be welcoming and open to a wide demographic of players.
Quote from: staggerlee on August 26, 2008, 12:07:17 PM
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on August 26, 2008, 11:57:51 AM
Quote from: Mood on August 26, 2008, 11:54:29 AMAm I the only one who finds it laughable that we, the players of ArmageddonMUD, are afraid we're going to scare potential players away by being offensive on the GDB?
It's a fairly tasty sort of irony.
Something tells me that the type of person who's easily offended wouldn't last long in this sort of a MUD to begin with.
That's like saying that I shouldn't have read American Psycho because I'm not a violent misogynist psychopath. Or that if I'm willing to read the book, I should be equally willing to watch it happen in real life, or hear someone speak glowingly of how they want to re-enact it. The logic doesn't carry through.
Speaking for myself... I view Armageddon as a game, the forums are not a game. Things that happen ic are ic, and I'm more than content to leave them there, sometimes I very much enjoy a certain amount of violence, grit and brutality in my fiction. When the bullshit starts piling up ooc that's another story and I'd be more than willing to leave a game that no longer presented a comfortable ooc atmosphere.
I've got absolutely no interest in playing a game that's community is restricted entirely to a bunch of young men that enjoy behaving like assholes. The ooc environment should be welcoming and opening to a wide demographic of players.
Now if OOC chatter actually had anything to do with the game at all, which it doesnt. Or in theory it shouldnt. Its OOC chatter. Chatter not relating to the game.
In fact, maybe Seph's idea about giving it its own link wouldnt be a bad idea. So that people dont confuse OOC with IC on the GDB.
Things related to the game, and things not related to the game.
It doesn't matter, as long as it's on Armageddon's webpage or part of the GDB it's tied to the game and the opinions expressed there are going to reflect on the player base, the staff, the environment we want to present and the community as a whole.
Quote from: staggerlee on August 26, 2008, 12:11:44 PM
It doesn't matter, as long as it's on Armageddon's webpage or part of the GDB it's tied to the game and the opinions expressed there are going to reflect on the player base, the staff, the environment we want to present and the community as a whole.
It does matter. People should be able to understand the concept of "Related to the Game" and "Not Related to the Game".
But thats a matter of opinion.
You believe people should judge the game based on chatter that isnt about the game.
I believe they shouldnt.
If you want to spew crazyness, go play around on 4chan.
Idle OOC is out of character but that doesn't mean that it's a no-holds-barred wasteland to post trashy threads about how a certain religion sucks or why a certain group of people should be killed.
Quote from: Desertman on August 26, 2008, 12:13:21 PM
Quote from: staggerlee on August 26, 2008, 12:11:44 PM
It doesn't matter, as long as it's on Armageddon's webpage or part of the GDB it's tied to the game and the opinions expressed there are going to reflect on the player base, the staff, the environment we want to present and the community as a whole.
It does matter. People should be able to understand the concept of "Related to the Game" and "Not Related to the Game".
But thats a matter of opinion.
You believe people should judge the game based on chatter that isnt about the game.
I believe they shouldnt.
No. I believe that people
will judge the game based on the content of the GDB. That's an important distinction.
Quote from: staggerlee on August 26, 2008, 12:14:30 PM
Quote from: Desertman on August 26, 2008, 12:13:21 PM
Quote from: staggerlee on August 26, 2008, 12:11:44 PM
It doesn't matter, as long as it's on Armageddon's webpage or part of the GDB it's tied to the game and the opinions expressed there are going to reflect on the player base, the staff, the environment we want to present and the community as a whole.
It does matter. People should be able to understand the concept of "Related to the Game" and "Not Related to the Game".
But thats a matter of opinion.
You believe people should judge the game based on chatter that isnt about the game.
I believe they shouldnt.
No. I believe that people will judge the game based on the content of the GDB. That's an important distinction.
I think the important distinction should be between the GDB in general and the OOC Chatter portion of the GDB. I believe that distincition is the deciding factor in what people will consider game related and not game related, and as such judge the game based on
that distinction.
If you note the title of this thread you will see that we are discussing
Idle OOC Rules, not
GDB Rules. Apparently, there is a difference between the two.
I'd rather see Idle OOC undermoderated than overmoderated, personally. I enjoy reading and posting there, and I really think it's fine as is.
Quote from: staggerlee on August 26, 2008, 12:14:30 PM
No. I believe that people will judge the game based on the content of the GDB. That's an important distinction.
Exactly, precisely. People will and they do. Brytta even commented recently that he'd introduce some people to the game if it weren't for our forums. Everything that is associated with ARM is part and parcel of our whole effort to attract and retain players, and denials of that fact are wishful thinking.
Quote from: Mood on August 26, 2008, 12:24:52 PM
I'd rather see Idle OOC undermoderated than overmoderated, personally. I enjoy reading and posting there, and I really think it's fine as is.
Exactly, precisely. Off the top of my head I can count six people I introduced to this game and none of them have ever had any problem with OOC Chatter. Two of them dont even read the GDB. All of them have been playing over five years now I guess. It would seem that very valueable players that stick around, dont mind the GDB at all. In fact I can only think of one person I have ever showed the game that didnt get instantly addicted. The question..."How is your GDB?" Was never even asked.
It would seem new players could give a shit less. Atleast the many that I have introduced to the game. I guess I just dont try to introduce those types of people that would give two shits about the GDB environment...If I ever meet one though, which I havent, I will try to introduce them just for the new experience.
I'm sure someone out there has introduced someone who said..."Nope, I cant play this game, your GDB isnt friendly enough." And we lost a player because of it. I just personally never have had that happen.
Quote from: Desertman on August 26, 2008, 12:32:37 PM
Quote from: Mood on August 26, 2008, 12:24:52 PM
I'd rather see Idle OOC undermoderated than overmoderated, personally. I enjoy reading and posting there, and I really think it's fine as is.
Exactly, precisely. Off the top of my head I can count six people I introduced to this game and none of them have ever had any problem with OOC Chatter. Two of them dont even read the GDB. All of them have been playing over five years now I guess.
This one. And, really, I don't take offense to anything on here. I mean, if someone wants to act like an asshat, how is that any of my concern? Not only is is it fairly easy to -not- read something that you don't want to read, it's even easier to -not- read, and then -not- reply to things that you don't want to read, or think are devolving into nonsense. And seriously, who cares if someone wants to say something close-minded and foolish about a group of people. Any person with half a brain will be able to see how foolish and ignorant some of them are. It's bad enough that so many other ways of expressing ones self are censored, I very much don't want to see it here.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on August 26, 2008, 12:39:28 PM
Quote from: Desertman on August 26, 2008, 12:32:37 PM
Quote from: Mood on August 26, 2008, 12:24:52 PM
I'd rather see Idle OOC undermoderated than overmoderated, personally. I enjoy reading and posting there, and I really think it's fine as is.
Exactly, precisely. Off the top of my head I can count six people I introduced to this game and none of them have ever had any problem with OOC Chatter. Two of them dont even read the GDB. All of them have been playing over five years now I guess.
This one. And, really, I don't take offense to anything on here. I mean, if someone wants to act like an asshat, how is that any of my concern? Not only is is it fairly easy to -not- read something that you don't want to read, it's even easier to -not- read, and then -not- reply to things that you don't want to read, or think are devolving into nonsense. And seriously, who cares if someone wants to say something close-minded and foolish about a group of people. Any person with half a brain will be able to see how foolish and ignorant some of them are. It's bad enough that so many other ways of expressing ones self are censored, I very much don't want to see it here.
This is a great point...
Any person with half a brain will be able to see how foolish and ignorant some of them are.What if someone didnt have enough brain to see how foolish and ignorant some of them are, and as such, they took great offense and wouldnt be involved with the game because of it.
Have we really lost anything of value?
I've been to Chicago. It has some really cool things in it.
However, before you get there, you have to go through a bunch of shitty, segregated outskirts. If I didn't know what Chicago had to offer, I would never, ever put myself through those shitty little sections of industrialized wasteland to get to the city itself.
Quote from: Yam on August 26, 2008, 12:51:45 PM
I've been to Chicago. It has some really cool things in it.
However, before you get there, you have to go through a bunch of shitty, segregated outskirts. If I didn't know what Chicago had to offer, I would never, ever put myself through those shitty little sections of industrialized wasteland to get to the city itself.
So what you are saying is regardless of the fact Armageddon might have some crappy suburbs (OOC Chatter) people will still play the game because its a great game and thats what really matters?
or...
People will simply fly direct into the main airport and avoid the suburbs all together because its not their cup of tea. (Play the game and not worry about the GDB, like some people do. Like I did, for years.)
No, I'm saying that your posts are the trashy ghettos of this game that makes the community look like a bunch of 20-somethings who are trying to cover up inadequacies by acting like obnoxious internet badasses.
And that, you know, maybe we shouldn't try and look like that.
Quote from: Yam on August 26, 2008, 12:57:45 PM
No, I'm saying that your posts are the trashy ghettos of this game that makes the community look like a bunch of 20-somethings who are trying to cover up inadequacies by acting like obnoxious internet badasses.
And that, you know, maybe we shouldn't try and look like that.
Oh, I'm sorry, I misunderstood.
In that case, I respect your opinion but I'm afraid I disagree with you entirely.
But for the sake of arguement lets assume you are correct.
Lets say I am a 20-something trying to cover up inadequacies by acting like obnoxious internet badass.
I think we can all agree that a large portion of the gamer community actually fits right into this niche.
Are we now supposed to try and make these people not be who they are? Are we going to try and force people to not be themselves and instead be what we deem they "Should be". I dont want to play a game that promotes that sort of short-sighted oppression.
I dont want to see specific groups of individuals discrimated against simply because we do not like their views and ideas and how they present them. This GDB shouldnt be about discrimination or trying to change people to be what we think they should be.
I simply dont believe that is the point and I dont believe it is needed.
I say no to discrimination against all groups, against all creeds, against all peoples.
That includes a bunch of 20-somethings who are trying to cover up inadequacies by acting like obnoxious internet badasses. I am for freedom for all. Not freedom for those I deem worthy.
less is more as far as moderation goes for the ooc forum
I didn't read it for the longest time as I just viewed the forums as a place to read about people's opinion of the game but lately I'd probably say the 'Idle Chatter' forum is the real gem of the GDB and I'm rarely let down. It's the HBO of our discussion board, well, HBO with Springer re-runs every other hour. Pure, unadulterated entertainment.
How about just being able to write -1- post every three hours or so?
I'd take that happily.. Then you'd have to think about what you want to write.
It's easier to "ignore" someone you dislike when half the thread isn't cluttered with his/her posts, I'm thinking.
Quote from: Malken on August 26, 2008, 01:11:18 PM
How about just being able to write -1- post every three hours or so?
I'd take that happily.. Then you'd have to think about what you want to write.
It's easier to "ignore" someone you dislike when half the thread isn't cluttered with his/her posts, I'm thinking.
Thats actually not a bad idea. I kind of like it.
Quote from: Malken on August 26, 2008, 01:11:18 PM
How about just being able to write -1- post every three hours or so?
I'd take that happily.. Then you'd have to think about what you want to write.
It's easier to "ignore" someone you dislike when half the thread isn't cluttered with his/her posts, I'm thinking.
God no.
Quote from: Mood on August 26, 2008, 01:45:45 PM
Quote from: Malken on August 26, 2008, 01:11:18 PM
How about just being able to write -1- post every three hours or so?
I'd take that happily.. Then you'd have to think about what you want to write.
It's easier to "ignore" someone you dislike when half the thread isn't cluttered with his/her posts, I'm thinking.
God no.
Yeah, now that I think about it...Though I do believe Malken had a pretty good idea, I think letting people practice will power would be a more viable solution in the end.
As mean as it might be for me to say, if they lack the ability to see "Poster Douchebag" and ignore the post, well, they are reading it because part of them really wants to.
They can say..."Its just so hard for me to ignore it."
Well yeah...Because part of you enjoys being subject to it. Its like, as Manonfire put it, watching a car crash.
If you lack the ability to control your own impulses, thats not the fault of the poster expression their opinions. Its your fault. Get some control over yourself. Your weaknesses are not other folk's issues.
Thanks everyone, for agreeing with me...
Quote from: Yam on August 26, 2008, 12:13:51 PMIdle OOC is out of character but that doesn't mean that it's a no-holds-barred wasteland to post trashy threads about how a certain religion sucks or why a certain group of people should be killed.
Yam puts that pretty well.
This is a game community. I don't think we want to be presenting ourselves out of character as Jerry Springer's Unmoderated Internet Playhouse. We should be intelligent, witty, well-spoken, mature, amusing, and welcoming, out of character.
That way they'll only be more surprised at how ruthless and heartless we are inside the game.
In other words I pretty handily reject the argument that "If you don't like it, you shouldn't be here." In my ideal world, everybody who can roleplay and create a vivid story gets to be at Armageddon and they all enjoy the community when doing so.
On the other hand, let's not make the situation out to be worse than it is. I've been watching OOC Chatter much closer than I have before now, and I can't really find any threads to unleash my Moderation Weapons of Justice on. For the most part, the board is fine. Hopefully it stays that way.
Quote from: Mood on August 26, 2008, 01:45:45 PM
Quote from: Malken on August 26, 2008, 01:11:18 PM
How about just being able to write -1- post every three hours or so?
I'd take that happily.. Then you'd have to think about what you want to write.
It's easier to "ignore" someone you dislike when half the thread isn't cluttered with his/her posts, I'm thinking.
God no.
Hell no.
Quote from: Malken on August 26, 2008, 01:11:18 PM
How about just being able to write -1- post every three hours or so?
I'd take that happily.. Then you'd have to think about what you want to write.
It's easier to "ignore" someone you dislike when half the thread isn't cluttered with his/her posts, I'm thinking.
Ummm... no.
So, anyway, what's the point of this thread?
It'd be sort of ironic if it ended up being moderated.
Do what you think should be done, Staff people, you'll never get anything useful out of us.
Why not make OOC a 'clan' board that everybody automatically joins, and has to request to be removed from it?
Also, make it a board that guests cannot see.
Also, make mansa the moderator of zalanthas' toilet.
*Puts his hands on his hips, nodding a few times*
Well folks, I have to say I think this was a relatively productive discussion.
I'm glad we decided to keep things pretty much the way they are.
Thanks to all that participated without resorting to name calling and flinging accusations, and to the staff for having an open mind.
Quote from: mansa on August 26, 2008, 03:23:05 PM
Also, make mansa the moderator of zalanthas' toilet.
I thought you were already moderator of the MIRC room ;D
Quote from: Malken on August 26, 2008, 03:41:29 PM
Quote from: mansa on August 26, 2008, 03:23:05 PM
Also, make mansa the moderator of zalanthas' toilet.
I thought you were already moderator of the MIRC room ;D
I AM! BWAHAHAHA.
I should clarify my earlier statements a bit:
I'm speaking from the view of somebody who enforces the rules, not somebody who makes them. I'm an interested party in the discussion, but I'm not somebody who gives The Last Word (that would be higher staff's decision based on what comes out of this thread).
When I said the board is fine as it is, I meant that the majority of the threads I see are actually pretty tame, informational, and sometimes interesting, occasionally even insightful. However the small majority of threads that degenerate into Lets See Who Can Win The Internets spoil all that. I haven't seen one of those pop up in the last couple days, but if I do, I'm going to be watching closely.
As I said earlier, I don't see the GDB's purpose as an unmoderated Wild West, and I don't think players shouldn't have to wade through offensive material as part of our game community. If people are reporting posts as offensive, I'll be taking a look and probably using my flashy new Moderataser 5000.
Quote from: Rahnevyn on August 26, 2008, 04:41:45 PM
I should clarify my earlier statements a bit:
I'm speaking from the view of somebody who enforces the rules, not somebody who makes them. I'm an interested party in the discussion, but I'm not somebody who gives The Last Word (that would be higher staff's decision based on what comes out of this thread).
When I said the board is fine as it is, I meant that the majority of the threads I see are actually pretty tame, informational, and sometimes interesting, occasionally even insightful. However the small majority of threads that degenerate into Lets See Who Can Win The Internets spoil all that. I haven't seen one of those pop up in the last couple days, but if I do, I'm going to be watching closely.
As I said earlier, I don't see the GDB's purpose as an unmoderated Wild West, and I don't think players shouldn't have to wade through offensive material as part of our game community. If people are reporting posts as offensive, I'll be taking a look and probably using my flashy new Moderataser 5000.
I think that is a very good policy. I like things the way they are.
Quote from: staggerlee on August 25, 2008, 05:29:08 PM
I think that the ugly, offensive free for all that unmoderated forums tend to become would probably have a profoundly negative effect on the community, if racist, sexist or otherwise offensive posts are allowed to flourish I can imagine I'd lose a lot of respect for the posters responsible very quickly, and let's not pretend that feelings like that don't carry through to their personality on the gdb as a whole or how comfortable individuals feel partaking in a game together.
In short, we're here to play a game together. There are plenty of unmoderated forums where you can be as offensive as you want, why do we need to ruin the GDB by doing it here?
Well put.
I think keeping it civil and avoiding racist, sexist, etc. comments is a completely reasonable standard.
Over moderated.
I'm not kidding.
Take the recent races thread. Nyr Moderated it by locking.
I went back and read every post in the entire thread and think that it was locked long before its time. I saw no actual flaming, a reasonable and mature discussion by 99% of the posters. Yet it was moderated because one person thought that this subject has been discussed enough. Don't get me wrong, I think Nyr is a great storyteller, but I get annoyed when anybody below highlord moderates a thread. Sorry. Hell, I get annoyed when most highlords do. And you want to talk about having non-staff moderaters...Ppphhhttt. That will raise more problems then it solves.
And really, why lock the thread, Specialy when you KNOW it will be started again in a month or two? People feel strongly about certain things and honestly, the search feature in this new GDB BLOWS CHUNKS. You all "staff" realize that it only picks the first post of a thread that has what you are searching for? SUCKS, completly worthless.
Adn as to moderating, I think that too often staffers feel the need to "moderate" simply because the thread does not agree with the opnion...yes..OPINION..they hold. 95% of threads fade on their own. In the other 5% that people feel strongly about and post for 6+ pages, what is so wrong with that? Long as it has not tiurned into 5 pages of 2 people calling each other dickheads in creative ways, it shou be aloud to continue to a natural death.
my 2.5 sid.
For the first pass I'm keeping it simple: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,32273.0.html
The most interesting input to me was the concern of driving off new players. So I posted that concern right in the rules.
I'm hoping now that we've discussed this and set the rules in stone, that concern will be allayed. I'll leave the more extreme stuff (like hiding the forum from new players) for a time when it seems to me such measures are truly unavoidable.
You'll notice that I left out anything about differences in moderation between that forum and other forums. I don't think that needs to be in the rules, but you may notice less moderation of things like off-topic posts. This is simply a function of our limited moderation resources.
While we are on the topic, is there any sort of suggested thread length limit? For a while there was a 20 page limit, but then we changed software. Does it matter now how long a thread gets? Is one 100 page thread any better or any worse than five 20 page threads?
Quote from: Angela Christine on September 07, 2008, 12:02:03 AM
While we are on the topic, is there any sort of suggested thread length limit? For a while there was a 20 page limit, but then we changed software. Does it matter now how long a thread gets? Is one 100 page thread any better or any worse than five 20 page threads?
I'm not familiar with this limit, was this just a limitation of the software, or did someone come out and say threads couldn't be that long?
Noob. ;D
I think it was back on the old board, not this shiny new one. It was definitely a rule, threads in OOC chatter were getting locked after 20 pages (I'm not sure if the rule was just for OOC chatter, but threads on the other forums rarely get to 20 pages). I think it was triggered by a conversational thread very much like the current Random Thought thread. The thread got to a little over 140 pages, at which point it started behaving strangely. It stopped adding new pages or new posts. You could still reply to the thread, and when replying you would see the 10 most recent posts, but that was the only way to see the new posts. There may have been some other reasons too, since that would only account for making a 100 page limit, not a 20 page limit.
Quote from: Angela Christine on September 08, 2008, 06:34:15 AM
Noob. ;D
I think it was back on the old board, not this shiny new one. It was definitely a rule, threads in OOC chatter were getting locked after 20 pages (I'm not sure if the rule was just for OOC chatter, but threads on the other forums rarely get to 20 pages). I think it was triggered by a conversational thread very much like the current Random Thought thread. The thread got to a little over 140 pages, at which point it started behaving strangely. It stopped adding new pages or new posts. You could still reply to the thread, and when replying you would see the 10 most recent posts, but that was the only way to see the new posts. There may have been some other reasons too, since that would only account for making a 100 page limit, not a 20 page limit.
If there were technical reasons that aren't an issue on this board, I don't have a problem with it. This software seems more robust so I don't expect the same weirdness.