Idle OOC Rules

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't always disagree with you!!

Wait, I just did, didn't I?

*sigh*



Honestly, I actually share a lot of Desert's thoughts on the world in general, like for instance that mess with the mental patient protectors or whatever that was. That was dumb on their part.

I tend to differ with Desert once he starts rampaging on topics like religion and starts goading other posters (most generally female posters in regards to sexism). I think he's funny more times than I'll admit, but he just has this ... thing about him that makes me feel a little off. It's not creepy or anything, and there's a good chance that IRL we could probably manage to get along. Shit, we might even manage to be friendly, because IRL I'll argue with him without end, and call him all sorts of names, just like I suspect he'd call me all sorts of names. And IRL, he probably wouldn't be quite so ready to say something really off key and completely antogonistic, the same as I'd be unlikely to do.

But the internet offers us the freedom to think less and say more, and it can tend to cause us to make mistakes in judgement. Annonimity gives us freedom to be seperated from reaction, and in a way, is the reason we no longer have the personal relationships people did in years gone by. It has helped us become colder, harder, less friendly, less caring, detached ... perhaps 'helped us' is an oxymoron.

Tend yourselves, people, and make yourselves at least act like you care about the other members of this community we make a part of our lives. We are select, frankly. It takes a certain amount of intelligence, maturity and a certian niche interest to stay here. We are smart, we are dedicated (as a whole), and we are alike. Let's act like we are, and let's cherish each other in, at the least, a fellow soul way.

[Desertman]

I very seldom see anyone personally attack someone else.

I've seen you do it, but it seems like you don't think you have. The question is, who's right? That's what moderation is for.

Personally, I'm supportive of the requirements of ARM community over the "free speech rights" of individuals.

And that is the glory of it.

I'm sure you have seen me do it. I have done it. So, if you didnt see me do it, trust me, its been done, I can point you to some links. Very likely many more times than once actually.

Most of the time, I think I am being subtle enough that people wont notice. Sometimes I fully expect it to get moderated.

I am not the model poster. BY FAR. That is not the point I am trying to make.

The point I am trying to make is the folks here are typically well-behaved enough that we dont need a Big Brother type moderation system in place.

You may have seen me "Personally Attack Someone"....

But to what extent?

I have never once said..."Hey Manonfire, go fuck yourself you nasty filthy whore. I want you to die and burn in hell and also, I'm going to rape your dog!!!"

(I used Manonfire, because 1. He isnt a sensitive shit. 2. I dont mean it. and 3. He wouldnt give a fuck if I did mean it.)

That is the type of personal attack I am talking about. Not me making snarky comments about your sex or religion or gender aimed at your sex, religion, and gender, instead of specifically at you.

There is a big difference between that and snarky veiled quips. I am fully of snarky veiled quips, however, I am not full of rude personal attacks.

[Desertman]

Shit, we might even manage to be friendly, because IRL I'll argue with him without end, and call him all sorts of names, just like I suspect he'd call me all sorts of names. And IRL, he probably wouldn't be quite so ready to say something really off key and completely antogonistic, the same as I'd be unlikely to do.

I once told (actually more than once) a Christian friend of mine I would "Fuck his Jesus in the ass with a Bible.".

I can honestly and without a doubt tell you that I have said much WORSE things to my RL friends than I say to you folks.

Its just a guy "buddy" thing I guess. We say awful shit to each other then laugh about it.

You see, the difference is how that comes across in text and how it comes across in person.

You people seem to think that a lot of the time I am sitting behind my keyboard burning a Bible and masturbating before I shoot my load onto its ashes while I type these things to you about your ideas, beliefs, ect....

I'm not...Most of the time I am laughing and getting a real kick out of "What I can come up with."

I could get along with anyone because I am a good-natured and easy-to-get-along-with-fellow. Some of you seem to interpret me as a "Dick" when in fact I probably just have an entirely different sense of humor than you do. Or atleast a sense of humor that doesnt translate well in text.

[Malken]

Bottom line, I don't think you should have any say on this, Desertman.

[Desertman]

Bottom line, I don't think you should have any say on this, Desertman.

You are entitled to that opinion and I appreciate you expressing it in such a way that was not a personal attack.

I whole heartedly respect your opinion though I will say that I am glad you have no authority on the situation.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Its just a guy "buddy" thing I guess. We say awful shit to each other then laugh about it.

You see, the difference is how that comes across in text and how it comes across in person.

Precisely. This is nearly entirely accurate.

Though I think that we'd figure out what was ok to say around each other and what wasn't. 'Cause I woulda hit you for that one. And no, that don't make me no better Christain. But I woulda sinned for that one.

Heh.

[Desertman]

There's no sense of community on the GDB.

I know I don't care about 95% of you, which is something strange for me because I usually care about the community I'm involved with in other games and other internet places I'm involved in.

I wish I cared more about the people I spend half of my days playing with.

*Tear*

I care about you. If for no better reason than I find you entertaining to play with IG. Isnt that what really matters?

I can always count your GDB personality to disagree with mine...As such I can always depend on you to offer up some good bit of this or that for me to reply to, and there you have it, I have found a silver-lining to the cloud.

Sometimes, you just have to look at the glass half full, instead of half empty.

We dont even agree with each other, and I appreciate the fact that I still have you around. Without your oposition, I would have one less person to reply to.

Cant you atleast care about me as much?

[Desertman]

Its just a guy "buddy" thing I guess. We say awful shit to each other then laugh about it.

You see, the difference is how that comes across in text and how it comes across in person.

Precisely. This is nearly entirely accurate.

Though I think that we'd figure out what was ok to say around each other and what wasn't. 'Cause I woulda hit you for that one. And no, that don't make me no better Christain. But I woulda sinned for that one.

Heh.

Well obviously lol. I wouldnt say something like that to someone I just met IRL. These are buddies I have had since I was a small child.

I generally treat all of you on here the way I would treat a really good friend of mine. So, I dont see what the problem is. I'm just real friendly with you people.

And I grew up in East Texas, I am completely accustom to that brand of Christianity.

[Gimfalisette]

Its just a guy "buddy" thing I guess. We say awful shit to each other then laugh about it.

The "guy buddy thing" is not necessarily the best standard of conduct for this community. The reason being that we do not have just "guy buddies" in the community, nor do we wish to attract just "guy buddy" types as players. I'm 100% certain (yes, I have the data) that I'm not the only woman who has been massively offended at your (and others') conduct on the forums toward myself and other women. Sometimes the stuff I've seen has been enough to make me feel like quitting the game; and the only thing that keeps me going is having an active character I enjoy.

The OOC forums should not be an obstacle to new players or minority-group players (women are a minority group in ARM). Currently, they often are.

[manonfire]

Its just a guy "buddy" thing I guess. We say awful shit to each other then laugh about it.

The "guy buddy thing" is not necessarily the best standard of conduct for this community. The reason being that we do not have just "guy buddies" in the community, nor do we wish to attract just "guy buddy" types as players. I'm 100% certain (yes, I have the data) that I'm not the only woman who has been massively offended at your (and others') conduct on the forums toward myself and other women. Sometimes the stuff I've seen has been enough to make me feel like quitting the game; and the only thing that keeps me going is having an active character I enjoy.

The OOC forums should not be an obstacle to new players or minority-group players (women are a minority group in ARM). Currently, they often are.

And for all this, you're still reading his posts.

Sorta like a car crash, isn't it?

Is ignoring someone -really- that hard?

[Desertman]

Its just a guy "buddy" thing I guess. We say awful shit to each other then laugh about it.

The "guy buddy thing" is not necessarily the best standard of conduct for this community. The reason being that we do not have just "guy buddies" in the community, nor do we wish to attract just "guy buddy" types as players. I'm 100% certain (yes, I have the data) that I'm not the only woman who has been massively offended at your (and others') conduct on the forums toward myself and other women. Sometimes the stuff I've seen has been enough to make me feel like quitting the game; and the only thing that keeps me going is having an active character I enjoy.

The OOC forums should not be an obstacle to new players or minority-group players (women are a minority group in ARM). Currently, they often are.

I am often offended by the fact that you are so easily offended.

When you become offended by something that I believe isnt offensive, I take that to mean that you believe I am a mean and hateful person.

I take that to mean that you are saying..."Hey Desertman, I think you are a mean and hateful person."

Being called a mean and hateful person offends me. Perhaps you shouldnt post that I offend you? It offends me, because I dont think that I am offending you.


Thats all bullshit of course...

But we cant cater to every single minority group that comes along. The internet is a melting-pot of minorities and majorities....When it all comes down to brass tacks...You have one group...."Internet People"

We are all..."Internet People"...If you say..."I think halfbreed males are stupid."

I am not going to take personal offense...that has nothing to do with the internet personality I present you with.

If you say..."I think Desertman is stupid."

Thats completely different. That is a personal attack.

When you come onto the internet you take the risk of having your foundations shaken. Thats the real world.

But until someone says..."Hey Gimf (something horribly personally offensive)."

Get over it. If a random post on a GDB for a fantasy game hurts you so deeply IRL, maybe you really should consider avoiding it. It would seem that a person that emotionally fragile should really be very careful about the places the frequent, the internet being a major red flag for that scenario.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Desert, you have a point, in a way. But so does Gim, and her point is more real.

You (and everyone else here) should be working on preserving this game and enhancing its appeal. If the way you want to talk hurts the game, why wouldn't you have a thought along the lines of, "Hey, I like this game, and I want it to grow. Let's give off that good image. I don't have to actually be nice, but I can keep my offensive viewpoints (and you know they are offensive, and you revel in that fact - let's not kid ourselves here, Desertman) off of the boards and express them instead in AIM and IRL."

For that reason alone, you should consider curbing your ways. This isn't your playground, it's ours, and we need more kids for tag. It doesn't hurt to share the sandbox now and then.

[Gimfalisette]

Get over it. If a random post on a GDB for a fantasy game hurts you so deeply IRL, maybe you really should consider avoiding it. It would seem that a person that emotionally fragile should really be very careful about the places the frequent, the internet being a major red flag for that scenario.

Maybe you should be the one to get over it, is my point. Why do I have to change something, and you get to keep on doing whatever you want to do?

I'm also amused you're trying to paint me as emotionally fragile. The fact that you are offensive doesn't logically lead to the conclusion that I'm over-sensitive.

Here's an extended analogy for you guys:

Imagine ARM as a village where we all live. We all work at the same place, that's the main forums. On the main forums, because there are some rules, we're all pretty polite together and we stay on topic because that's the job.

The OOC forums are the bar where we can go hang out after work. There's only one bar in our village, so if you want to hang out, that's where you've got to go. There are no other options.

Currently, the bar can be very scary at times. There's a group of rowdy young men who feel like they should be able to say anything to anyone they want, and occasionally they corner someone...often a woman, and do just that. It's very intimidating. Even just seeing it happen once, to one woman, can be enough to make other women shut up. Some women don't come to the bar anymore due to this.

My question is: How come only the guys get to relax at the bar, and if the women want to hang out they have to be OK with the abuse?

[Yam]

Clever argument technique, Gimf. Equating to what Desertman does to misogyny is a bit despicable though.

Of course, Desertman can get pretty annoying. I would definitely like to see some checks and balances so that he can't spew his blowjob/sex stuff all over the place. It gets old.

[Gimfalisette]

Clever argument technique, Gimf. Equating to what Desertman does to misogyny is a bit despicable though.

I have no idea if he's a misogynist or not. I think he picks the target that's available, and we have more women here than we do people of other minority groups he likes to be an asshole about.

[X-D]

I agree with 7DV and Choad on this topic...so far.

As to anybody being offended.....I fail to see how anybody could get offended by anything typed on a message board by a basicly faceless person who knows how many miles away etc etc. What I normally see with people who do seem to get offended on the GDB is people who simply cannot stand the fact that other people have differing views and opinions then they do and for some reason consider that wrong and a personal affront.


I also think that the GDB as a whole is already far over moderated.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I agree with 7DV and Choad on this topic...so far.

Err, homie ... ... Choad and I like, completely disagree! How can you agree with both of us?!?

Unless you're saying that you agree with Choad's view on life but also agree with me that this isn't really the place to say everything that pops to mind, and that people should act like adults and monitor themselves for the good of the game, as opposed to the good of themselves.

That, I can understand.

[Gimfalisette]

Another possible solution is to have the forum software upgraded to the newest version, which allows users to ignore other users' posts. I still think the OOC forum would need to have some moderation, but I would be overjoyed just to be able to actually put Desertman and a few other posters on ignore.

[manonfire]

Another possible solution is, instead of having the Immortals spend their time installing new software, easily offended posters could educate themselves on the intricacies of ignoring posts.

[Yam]

Another possible solution is to have the forum software upgraded to the newest version, which allows users to ignore other users' posts. I still think the OOC forum would need to have some moderation, but I would be overjoyed just to be able to actually put Desertman and a few other posters on ignore.

As long as I could just ignore the part where he talks about his wife or politics or science or religion or sex.

Everything else is fine.

[staggerlee]

... this isn't really the place to say everything that pops to mind, and that people should act like adults and monitor themselves for the good of the game, as opposed to the good of themselves.

People need to do that regardless of moderation.  The Staff aren't our parents.
The advantage to rules for the forum is that we're no longer relying on that subjective sense of what is and is not offensive as Desertman has so frequently pointed out; instead it would be laid out in a document that can be referenced, thus avoiding having the staff review everything on a case by case basis.  Make the line of what is and is not appropriate on the forum objective rather than subjective.

Having the staff review complaints on an individual basis would be more work for them and require that they actually start mediating, not just moderating.  That's no good at all.

[Desertman]

I can honestly say I have never been "offended" by a GDB post from anyone.

Even the ones that are hateful towards me.

You know why?

Because its a GDB post. I'm sorry, but I will never have the emotional make-up to understand how that could ever offend anyone. So I guess I will never understand your point of view.

I lack the ability to be offended by an internet GDB post, I just..lack it. I'm sorry, but because of this, I can never comprehend where you are coming from.

I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree.

[X-D]

Unless you're saying that you agree with Choad's view on life but also agree with me that this isn't really the place to say everything that pops to mind, and that people should act like adults and monitor themselves for the good of the game, as opposed to the good of themselves.

Both...AND the ability to agree to disagree. The ability to understand that other people have differing views while still continuing on with your life. I could be wrong, but I think both of you at least understand that in the end, It simply does not matter.

(Edit) Blinks, I think me and Dman just said the exact same thing.

[Bebop]

I think the Idle OOC should be moderated very liberally as we are a liberal community.

Murder.  Corruption.  Betrayl.  Hell we should add lust after what I've heard about you guyzes IG romps.

It astounds me that playing a game of this nature people on her can claim to get offended easily or feel tentative about religion and so on.

Regardless, I say let's keep it liberal.

No posts of a racist nature.

No posts of a sexist nature.

No posts that are offensive or target people based on sexual preferance.

I do not want to see the GDB lock down from what I gather we are a very liberal people here, if we weren't we couldn't play this game that is actually surrounded on prejudice.

[Bebop]

Staying on topic is good for the rest of the board, but I don't care if Idle OOC derails a bit. I like how the threads there are a bit more free-form thought.

No offensive material is a big one.

There is no way to define this, different people are more easily offended and by different things.