I was thinking.. I can't remember seeing any higher born elf PC.  In tribes, there are always some blue blood. Probably some families in an elven clan must be more powerful & respected, etc. Are there PC elven nobles?

No. The closest equivalent is don Corleone the elf, but no straight-up nobles.

Tribes also don't necessarily have blue bloods. In real life, egalitarianism is pretty common among small groups of hunter-gatherer humans. Whether Zalanthan tribes have chiefs (hereditary or otherwise), diffused decision, or make all their decision via erdlu bones depends on the individual tribe.

Why yes, yes I have. In Tuluk. He was clad in silk and lived up in a fancy tower.

Quote from: Iiyola on May 04, 2015, 03:26:39 PM
Why yes, yes I have. In Tuluk. He was clad in silk and lived up in a fancy tower.

See what happens?  Mmhmm :sage nod:

Quote from: Iiyola on May 04, 2015, 03:26:39 PM
Why yes, yes I have. In Tuluk. He was clad in silk and lived up in a fancy tower.

Then his entire tribe was deemed not to fit the setting and was retconned. (or something)

Recognizing nobility, or an elf allowing herself to be recognized as nobility, strikes me as the complete opposite of the elven mindset.

Quote from: Harmless on May 04, 2015, 04:11:19 PM

Quote from: Iiyola on May 04, 2015, 03:26:39 PM
Why yes, yes I have. In Tuluk. He was clad in silk and lived up in a fancy tower.

Then his entire tribe was deemed not to fit the setting and was retconned. (or something)

Retconned? They just closed for PCs to my understanding. Just like the Jaxa Pah.

Quote from: valeria on May 04, 2015, 04:12:25 PM
Recognizing nobility, or an elf allowing herself to be recognized as nobility, strikes me as the complete opposite of the elven mindset.

Think of it in layers and the complexity is delicious.

Why is the elf allowing herself to be recognized as nobility?  What do they get from it?  What does whoever made them nobility think they're getting from it?  What's the real play?  

Sure, it might be as simple as "Yay!  I'm a noble, now I can steal with impunity"  but really, a noble taking things?  There's no art in that.  Being made a noble?  zomg they just gave you what?  lol!

I don't think being recognised as nobility is against an elf's idea very much, but recognising others as such definetly is.

Think this is completely loaded question.  Mostly because the equivalent of an 'elven noble' would be in almost no way comparable to 'noble' as we know it aside from wealth, power, resources, etc.  They likely wouldn't have a title, even.

Quote from: Iiyola on May 04, 2015, 04:14:21 PM

Quote from: Harmless on May 04, 2015, 04:11:19 PM

Quote from: Iiyola on May 04, 2015, 03:26:39 PM
Why yes, yes I have. In Tuluk. He was clad in silk and lived up in a fancy tower.

Then his entire tribe was deemed not to fit the setting and was retconned. (or something)

Retconned? They just closed for PCs to my understanding. Just like the Jaxa Pah.

Not going to bother finding staff's official stances on it, but I am pretty sure there were comments made by them about how either a.) the PC role of the akai were not fitting the setting or b.) the roleplay in the akai was not appropriate to the setting.

So yeah, maybe not retconned, but I definitely remember comments along those lines from staff

Quote from: Patuk on May 04, 2015, 04:23:53 PM
I don't think being recognised as nobility is against an elf's idea very much, but recognising others as such definetly is.

I think every elf probably thinks that his or her tribe is the greatest tribe that ever existed, and quite possibly thinks that he or she is the best or most competent member of the tribe.  So I just can't imagine elves going to another elf and saying, hey you, you're better than we are, why don't you rule us.

I'm confused.

Do people think that power structures do not exist in an elven society?

Different elven groups have different power structures (or a lack thereof) and that is something that should probably be explored in game.

Quote from: valeria on May 04, 2015, 05:15:23 PM

Quote from: Patuk on May 04, 2015, 04:23:53 PM
I don't think being recognised as nobility is against an elf's idea very much, but recognising others as such definetly is.

I think every elf probably thinks that his or her tribe is the greatest tribe that ever existed, and quite possibly thinks that he or she is the best or most competent member of the tribe.  So I just can't imagine elves going to another elf and saying, hey you, you're better than we are, why don't you rule us.

Exactly. Elves wouldn't mind being recognised as noble, but will not do so for others.

Power structures do exist.  But there are differences between having a tribe, where your rulers are generally selected by the group on the basis of personally achieved status, and having a chiefdom, where your rulers are generally selected on the basis of an ascribed status.  "Noble" is a term that implies ascribed status, a hereditary position.

Quote from: valeria on May 04, 2015, 06:03:26 PM
Power structures do exist.  But there are differences between having a tribe, where your rulers are generally selected by the group on the basis of personally achieved status, and having a chiefdom, where your rulers are generally selected on the basis of an ascribed status.  "Noble" is a term that implies ascribed status, a hereditary position.

I was actually going to talk about how 'elven nobility' was probably much more based on meritocracy, and wasn't so much an established power structure as a 'This one has earned your respect whether you met him or not.  You don't fuck with this guy.'  But I also think this may be an area where there's a lack of documentation and precedence, and it's kind of up to players to 'wing it' and see how things pan out. Some people will think of that Jaxa leader as an rinthi noble, some will still feel like they can just straight up tell him to fuck himself.  Kind of shifts and changes, whereas the traditional noble is set in stone.

So really, I don't really know.  I'm just a lot more open in my interpretation of interactions between tribes closely packed together, I think.  But I do know that there -was- a social hierarchy eastside, from my time played when Haruch Kemad first reopened.  The documentation spoke of the notable tribes that formed the eastside, the notable people in each tribe, and who was to be listened to when they said things.  A hierarchy.  It was a requirement for them to be able to work together, and it actually made each tribe behave kind of like a separate noble house in the city proper.  They each had their 'areas' of expertise, and prominent leaders.

I always stuck to that format, but I admit it could have changed drastically when the Jaxa clan was put in.

I remember an elf who called himself a noble, who walked around with two half-giant guards.

/is old
//did i dream it?

Elven tribes have elders and leaders of different kinds, you can learn more about this in game if you ask the right people.

Neither city recognizes any hereditary elven leaders, so there's no nobility per se.

In a world, where people deeply believe some of them can be better then the other just by birth, I guess that would be rather common to have some members of the society to be considered as "chosen, enlighten, higherborn, etc." Of course, this kind of social hierarchy requires well established traditions and a rather stable population and living space of that particular group. In desert tribes, traditions of leadership could be formed on not birth, but talent. On the other hand, in cities, I was thinking there is always some type of noble within them. Surely those elves would not be in same league with a Borsail, Fale or Oash where their race, humans are dominant and leaders of the city, but nevertheless, there could be elves whom are considered many as higherborns by blood.

Nobles are considered better by birth because the local despot chose them, not the other way around.

I think some people in this thread don't really understand the concept of Zalanthan nobility.

In Zalanthas, you are not nobility unless you are born with a last name like Borsail, or Winrothol, or Kasix.

If you are born with that last name, it is accepted as a fundamental fact of your existence by both you and the common plebs that you are inherently better.

Elven tribes have their own varying power structures but the chief or war leader or leading merchant of a tribe is not comparable to the concept of nobility in either city-state.

Quote from: HavokBlue on May 05, 2015, 03:42:58 AM
I think some people in this thread don't really understand the concept of Zalanthan nobility.

In Zalanthas, you are not nobility unless you are born with a last name like Borsail, or Winrothol, or Kasix.

If you are born with that last name, it is accepted as a fundamental fact of your existence by both you and the common plebs that you are inherently better.

Elven tribes have their own varying power structures but the chief or war leader or leading merchant of a tribe is not comparable to the concept of nobility in either city-state.

If you're referring to me, I think you misunderstood what I meant.  I wasn't saying there are elven nobles, but I was saying that there is an equivalent role that is inherently different from the traditional 'noble' due to cultural values.

I was responding primarily to this post:

Quote from: Gaare on May 05, 2015, 01:38:19 AM
In a world, where people deeply believe some of them can be better then the other just by birth, I guess that would be rather common to have some members of the society to be considered as "chosen, enlighten, higherborn, etc." Of course, this kind of social hierarchy requires well established traditions and a rather stable population and living space of that particular group. In desert tribes, traditions of leadership could be formed on not birth, but talent. On the other hand, in cities, I was thinking there is always some type of noble within them. Surely those elves would not be in same league with a Borsail, Fale or Oash where their race, humans are dominant and leaders of the city, but nevertheless, there could be elves whom are considered many as higherborns by blood.