I wanted to take a moment to report out to the broader player community about what I've seen and experienced on the player committee after I was randomly selected several months ago.  I think it would be a good idea for other members of the committee to share their thoughts as well, I just wanted to start off the thread to get a dialogue going.

Before I get into my opinions and observations, I wanted to share some facts:

- There have been 20 staff complaints since the PC started

- None of these cases showed any evidence of any serious staff misconduct.  One case was borderline with some significant allegations but lacked supporting evidence and had a lot of history behind it.  With that said, most of the complaints didn't even suggest that there was misconduct, the majority were focused on game related issues or escalating requests to producers where there was disagreement.  A significant portion of the complaints were continuations from a previous complaint.

- Nearly every complaint generated hours of discussion between the producers and the committee.  A few probably generated 10+ of hours of discussion.  Some led to policy changes.  In total, I think it's safe to say that Halaster, Brokkr and Usiku spent at least 50-100+ hours working on these between Discord, writing replies, and researching over the last several months.  I was trying to figure out if there was a way to get a word count on the amount of discussions we've had on the discord, but I can't seem to figure it out...  I think its safe to say there's hundreds of thousands of words there between the ~9 people who were on the discord since it started.

- While the Player Committee serves the function of reviewing and offering advice on complaints, it often sparks a lot of discussions on the overall game health as a complaint may point out a problem.  I'd say half the discussion time is actually going down those rabbit holes, rather than talking about just the specifics of a complaint.

Now on to some of my opinions:

First and foremost, spending these last several months with a peek behind the curtains has given me a greater respect for the patience, consistency, and overall professionalism of our producers.  We've got some great people at the top of this game.  It's pretty incredible how much effort they put into their mostly thankless roles to keep this game running.

On the flip side, I've gotten a glimpse at some of the players side of things too.  There's a pretty wide range here.  Some complaints are shining a light on some aspect of the game that really needs to be looked at, whereas others were frivilous or even straight up toxic.
 
I've enjoyed my time on the PC overall.  I've probably spent more time writing in the PC Discord than actually playing Armageddon these last few months (Baldur's Gate 3...),  but it's nice to contribute and be able to engage asychronously on something without having to work on staff.  I feel like a lot of the advice we've offered has been heard, and some positive changes have come as a result of it.  It's also given me a greater appreciation for just how challenging it is to staff and operate this game, and a sense of gratitude for everyone who works on it.  I'd encourage people to throw their name in the hat when there are opening in the future as people's term limits expire.

Happy to answer some questions if anyone is curious.

Quote from: wizturbo on November 04, 2023, 05:08:12 PMSome complaints are shining a light on some aspect of the game that really needs to be looked at, whereas others were frivilous or even straight up toxic.

I'm curious about the complaints that shined a light on game aspects that need to be looked at.

Primarily for myself - am I reproducing those negative aspects by my gameplay?

What do you think is the root cause of these problems, and given a magick wand, what do you think is required to fix them?

Is your question for Wizturbo or those that serve, or have served, on the PC?

Quote from: Krath on November 04, 2023, 05:27:40 PMIs your question for Wizturbo or those that serve, or have served, on the PC?

I'll be open to anyone that has insight from their experience on the Player Committee, as I think both you and Wizturbo might have different answers to those questions, even though you both are witness to the same thing.   I don't care about the frivolous complaints.

1. There is no overarching story or direction for the game. Some staffers will say the player's stories are and I disagree...Those should be branches from the staff driven direction.The game is basically the Sims with a staff/admins and no clear direction except exist.

2. Staff and Players need to communicate with more transparency and directness. If a player ask can I do A and it is not possible, just say it isn't possible.

3. Passdowns between staffers when rotations change is somewhat decent at best. The lack of continuity between how one staffer understands and views the docs and another is jarring and has caused frustration between players and staff.

4. There is no clear leader. It used to be Ness, then Sanvean before him. This causes massive delays in decision making, as I have seen it first hand. The committee idea is great in theory, not practice.

5. Storytellers need more freedom to be storytellers and make decisions on the stories they are telling or support without admin support or decision making.

Quote from: mansa on November 04, 2023, 05:23:51 PMI'm curious about the complaints that shined a light on game aspects that need to be looked at.

Primarily for myself - am I reproducing those negative aspects by my gameplay?

What do you think is the root cause of these problems, and given a magick wand, what do you think is required to fix them?

My perspective on the complaints side really boils down to a few common themes:

1)  Challenges playing a leader in Armageddon and collaborating with staff. 
2)  Interpretation and/or differences of opinion on the rules or themes of the game
3)  Areas of the game where rules/policies/staff choices make the game less fun for the player(s)

In many cases, these kinds of complaints are honestly quite welcomed if they're coming from a good place and the player takes some time to write/edit their thoughts clearly.  I think it gives the Producers insight into things they may not see others.  I think the magick wand here is really for complaints to be brought up in a respectful, positive manner so the producers can discuss it.  Where things break down is when someone uses the staff complaints when they're fuming mad and write out a long emotional outburst with a lot of accusations and venom.  It takes the team a lot of time to separate the emotion from the real source of the issue...  Kind of like if a doctor is trying to diagnose a medical issue, but the patient is piss drunk.

Maybe that's the #1 takeaway I'd have for players regarding all of their staff interactions...  don't write requests when you're angry, and don't assume the worst from staff.  Treat them like you would a Dungeon Master who runs a tabletop game for you, and I think everyone would be so much happier.

Quote from: Krath on November 04, 2023, 06:15:50 PM3. Passdowns between staffers when rotations change is somewhat decent at best. The lack of continuity between how one staffer understands and views the docs and another is jarring and has caused frustration between players and staff.

4. There is no clear leader. It used to be Ness, then Sanvean before him. This causes massive delays in decision making, as I have seen it first hand. The committee idea is great in theory, not practice.

5. Storytellers need more freedom to be storytellers and make decisions on the stories they are telling or support without admin support or decision making.

Working on Armageddon as staff kind of sucks from the outside looking in.  It's a lot of work, the players aren't very grateful for it, and that leads to a lot of staff turnover.  In turn, the experience gets worse as continuity breaks down and staff experience levels are generally lower.  Since experience levels are lower....storyteller independence is impacted, and the cycle continues.

As for the 'there is no leader' comment...  I agree that a committee is less effective than a single leader at the top, but I don't see why anyone in their right mind would want to do that job.  The community is too divided, and they'll just be a lightning rod for negativity without having anyone else there to help shoulder the load.

My opinion of my months on the PC is going to be less PC than the others who have been there.

Staff wastes a TON of time on people's feelings being hurt.

As mentioned above, there was like one legitimate complaint and it was as he said, borderline.  The rest were all trivial at best.

And because of the recent past with Shaloonosh and his sexual predator behaviors, they are, understandably trying to be extremely cautious with responses back to people.  I've watched responses go from "Stop wasting our time." to Carebear nonsense just because (In my opinion) they knew that the player who complained was emotionally or mentally compromised and would fly off the handle at the slightest mishandling.

The most surprising thing though that I learned was that I actually agreed with staff in most cases, outside the carebear bits, but the general response structure and answers given was what I would do in their place based on the complaints.  They overly cushioned it for my liking is all.

I will say in my opinion of the three producers, Halaster was the most even keeled between the lash and the feather.  Usiku was soft as playdoh and Brokkr tended to be more of the fuck you, I'll do what I feel like vibe.

The PC was vastly different too, one person was obsessed with having threads created in every complaint so that they wouldn't have to strain their middle mouse button finger or something reading through it.

I was actively playing when I first joined and even with them removing clans/names and trying to censor it was pointless, I knew who almost every player was and most of the characters who complained.  So I think the censoring is a waste of finger dexterity for them and muddies the whole process.  When I got busy with work and fucked off and stopped playing for a while, I'd occasionally dip in the PC discord and just roll my eyes over the current complaint they were discussing.  Up until Halaster just asked if I could be booted since I wasn't around anymore and I said sure.

All in all it was eye opening to me though, it sorta helps me understand how the Nyr's and other strict-dickhead staffers are created, because they are assailed with nonsense probably daily from players, and occasionally there will be a request or complaint that has merit.

Makes me wonder, 100% seriously if muds just draw in those with emotional and mental issues from my experience listening to the things that people said in complaints.  I mean, trust me, I know I have my own issues, lack of empathy and all that, but I wonder if everyone else at least has that much clarity of self?

Quote from: Pariah on November 04, 2023, 07:13:30 PMStaff wastes a TON of time on people's feelings being hurt.

Yup.  I don't think my 50-100 hours was an exaggeration.  Incredible amounts of time goes into responding to complaints with care.   I've also questioned whether it's going too far.  They just seem to care a lot about not losing good players to bad request tool responses.  It's really draining though.  I think Halaster finally had enough after a point and it contributed to him wanting to take a step back.  Hopefully this temporary, he really is a great leader.

it's a challenge to take the integrity of the whole player committee thing seriously when you have (ex)members calling out the emotional and mental health of their fellow players.

Quote from: seltzer on November 04, 2023, 07:50:11 PMit's a challenge to take the integrity of the whole player committee thing seriously when you have (ex)members calling out the emotional and mental health of their fellow players.

So this a Voldemort thing where we can't mention things like that?

I'm being 100% curious and authentic when I wonder aloud if muds attract the afflicted.

Quote from: Pariah on November 04, 2023, 07:52:34 PM

Quote from: seltzer on November 04, 2023, 07:50:11 PMit's a challenge to take the integrity of the whole player committee thing seriously when you have (ex)members calling out the emotional and mental health of their fellow players.

So this a Voldemort thing where we can't mention things like that?

I'm being 100% curious and authentic when I wonder aloud if muds attract the afflicted.

no this is a real life thing where you're making judgments about people's mental wellbeing based on interactions that you've been invited to observe.

i don't care that you're a bad person except that it reflects extremely poorly on the committee. it's a bad look.

Quote from: seltzer on November 04, 2023, 07:59:02 PM

Quote from: Pariah on November 04, 2023, 07:52:34 PM

Quote from: seltzer on November 04, 2023, 07:50:11 PMit's a challenge to take the integrity of the whole player committee thing seriously when you have (ex)members calling out the emotional and mental health of their fellow players.

So this a Voldemort thing where we can't mention things like that?

I'm being 100% curious and authentic when I wonder aloud if muds attract the afflicted.

no this is a real life thing where you're making judgments about people's mental wellbeing based on interactions that you've been invited to observe.

i don't care that you're a bad person except that it reflects extremely poorly on the committee. it's a bad look.

You are entitled to your opinion, the joy of discussion boards.

Quote from: seltzer on November 04, 2023, 07:59:02 PMi don't care that you're a bad person except that it reflects extremely poorly on the committee. it's a bad look.

I agree with you.  So did more than one of the people on the committee when it came to Pariah's opinions and the kind of language he used.  The committee is selected at random, so you're going to have a wide range of personalities involved.  Fortunately, I think this is just a Pariah problem, not a "committee" problem as no one else really seems to have this issue.  To be clear, Pariah wasn't a wholly negative presence on the committee.  He participated in the discussions in good faith and made quite a few positive contributions, but the tone of some of his comments were definitely a cause of conflict on the committee both from the players and staff alike.

With that said, there are some rules now which I've pasted below which all members must adhere to our they'll be asked to leave the committee.  In my opinion, we haven't had any issues since these rules were established which includes a period of time where Pariah was still on the committee, and to his credit he did moderate himself afterwards.

Rules

• Do not speculate about the identify of redacted persons. You may think you can guess, you may know, but if it is relevant to the resolution of the complaint then it would have been revealed. Whatever you think you may know do not speculate or talk about it to others.
• Maintain respect for those involved, whether the complainant, the subject or others involved, whether you know their identity or not - do not talk about them in insulting or disrespectful ways.  This is also includes other Player Committee members.

I think I more or less agreed with others on the main points, is this bad, is this player overreacting, was this staffer right etc etc.

The difference is I don't really care to wordsmith shit to take into account your feelings.

I find it amusing that over the last 17-18 years I've been playing, I've always had the exact opposite feeling. I've been careful with my choice of words to avoid hurting the staff's feelings because, in the end, this is something I do for fun. If I were to offend a staff member, it could all go downhill. However, I've also come to realize that many of the players in this game will complain about anything, which makes me just as cautious about expressing my opinions on the forums. There have been countless times when I've written a lengthy response to board issues based on my experiences and the simple facts, only to delete or not post it because I know it won't lead anywhere. I can imagine that this feeling is even more pronounced among the committee and the staff.

Setting aside my own personal experiences, it's important for people to continue posting and reporting their problems because this is ultimately a team effort. Nevertheless, a bit of introspection can go a long way.

Maybe staff take an inordinate amount of time trying to find the best way to communicate with the players, but given enough opportunity and time the expectation is that they may learn the best ways to communicate that don't involve talking down to players or making them feel like shit-tier human beings because of disagreements.

I like the idea of the Player committee. I really do. Because it was my idea for 10 years. So far, it seems like from 3 committee members' testimonies that maybe it still isn't working and is causing more stress for staff and more workload for all those involved. But maybe thats just because:

Quote from: Pariah on November 04, 2023, 07:13:30 PMMakes me wonder, 100% seriously if muds just draw in those with emotional and mental issues from my experience listening to the things that people said in complaints.

Quote from: Pariah on November 04, 2023, 08:26:35 PMThe difference is I don't really care to wordsmith shit to take into account your feelings.

This may be coming from a player, but it comes from a player who was on a committee that should have the game's best interests at heart and is, instead ... echoing the same "players are not deserving" attitude.

I wish I could give you examples Riev but that's part of what we agree not to do, talk about exactly what happens.  But when I say that a huge chunk of them were TRIVIAL, I swear to god that if someone who had no interest in this game and just sat in on the complaint process were to weigh in, it's the same thing they would say knowing nothing and having no ties other than their honest testimony.

But let me give you an example I did not witness, but will show you the level of petty most of the complaints were...

Request: I would like a blue inix.
Staffer: No we don't make custom color inixes for people.
Complaint: X staffer totally disregarded my feelings and shit all over my idea, they are the worst and I feel like I'm not appreciated in this community.
PC members reading this: WTF?
That is the level right there of pure and utter nonsense they are taking high level staff and player volunteer time with.
(This didn't happen but things that are on that same level of silly did)

I'd like to note first:
"Player Volunteer" IS a staff member.

But also ... yeah that seems kind of ridiculous but its a tough line to walk. You want players to report when they feel slighted, or do you want them to "wait to submit and sit with the uneasy feelings"?

Isn't that the purpose of player/staff complaints? To say something left you feeling unappreciated or uncomfortable with a situation?

Quote from: wizturbo on November 04, 2023, 05:08:12 PMOn the flip side, I've gotten a glimpse at some of the players side of things too.  There's a pretty wide range here.  Some complaints are shining a light on some aspect of the game that really needs to be looked at, whereas others were frivilous or even straight up toxic.
 

Between this and the fact at least one staffer has left because of the burnout, I'm not surprised to hear that staff complaints represent an extremely draining yet unproductive use of the committee's time. You've certainly tried to point out that some complaints would actually be received in good faith, under specific circumstances, but there's observably a tendency throughout this thread to point out that most such complaints are at best trivial.

One thing I like about Armageddon as a MUD is that you don't have to "play it" on Reddit or alternate forums in order to succeed. Of course, if you have major concerns inside the game- and if you're trying to deal with those concerns at the same time as real-life crises or pre-existing "mental issues"- the inability to discuss problems outside the actual gameworld can lead to players withdrawing from the world entirely. But then, if those players were considered a problem anyways, who would consider it a loss?

Quote from: wizturbo on November 04, 2023, 05:08:12 PMFirst and foremost, spending these last several months with a peek behind the curtains has given me a greater respect for the patience, consistency, and overall professionalism of our producers.  We've got some great people at the top of this game.  It's pretty incredible how much effort they put into their mostly thankless roles to keep this game running.

This part honestly makes me wonder how many talented players and staff the game has lost over the years due to the burnout generated by player-staff communication without an advisory force like the player committee. An experience like this would certainly seem to explain a lot in retrospect.

A question for current/former player committee members I have is: what if anything would you change about how the player committee functions? I noticed a lot of commentary on the game itself, and how complaints have informed proposals on changing the game, but I was wondering what you all think about what would make the player committee run more optimally and better serve its purpose. Thanks!

Quote from: CirclelessBard on November 04, 2023, 09:24:14 PMA question for current/former player committee members I have is: what if anything would you change about how the player committee functions? I noticed a lot of commentary on the game itself, and how complaints have informed proposals on changing the game, but I was wondering what you all think about what would make the player committee run more optimally and better serve its purpose. Thanks!

I would stop it from being EVERY staff complaint.  I trust them enough to bring the actual complaints that have merit before the PC, but as I said, 99.9% of them were a waste of time to us, and staff has better shit to do.

I sometimes would log into discord at 1am after getting home from a bar or night out, and just sit with my mouth hanging open at how silly some new complaint was that came in, they really should be able to just bin some of them.

Quote from: CirclelessBard on November 04, 2023, 09:24:14 PMA question for current/former player committee members I have is: what if anything would you change about how the player committee functions? I noticed a lot of commentary on the game itself, and how complaints have informed proposals on changing the game, but I was wondering what you all think about what would make the player committee run more optimally and better serve its purpose. Thanks!

I think the committee functions pretty well, but the one change I'd like to see is actually raising the bar on what requires the involvement of the producers to address.  Like having only 1 producer work on a complaint unless it seems serious, or maybe even close a complaint all together if we (the player committee) unanimously agrees it doesn't require action.  I would still want to record the complaint in our archives in case a pattern emerges down the line, it isn't an 'ignore this complaint' button, but rather send a pre-written response to cut down on all the administrative burden and back and forth discussion on a complaint that doesn't warrant it.

I would also love it if the request tool had a 24 hour cooldown period before the complaint is actually filed, requiring the player to log back in and confirm they want to send it before it goes through.  It would allow for a period of reflection and self moderation and it would cut down on some complaints that get filed and then self closed which happens fairly often.

Quote from: Pariah on November 04, 2023, 09:28:21 PM

Quote from: CirclelessBard on November 04, 2023, 09:24:14 PMA question for current/former player committee members I have is: what if anything would you change about how the player committee functions? I noticed a lot of commentary on the game itself, and how complaints have informed proposals on changing the game, but I was wondering what you all think about what would make the player committee run more optimally and better serve its purpose. Thanks!

I would stop it from being EVERY staff complaint.  I trust them enough to bring the actual complaints that have merit before the PC, but as I said, 99.9% of them were a waste of time to us, and staff has better shit to do.

I sometimes would log into discord at 1am after getting home from a bar or night out, and just sit with my mouth hanging open at how silly some new complaint was that came in, they really should be able to just bin some of them.

wrt the bolded above:

There have been people expressing the desire for years that there be a request type that's not complaint, to send in, but it has been said over and over again in response to no just put whatever in under a complaint anyhow, even if it's literally just feedback. I'm not saying that it would help cut down on "frivolous staff complaints" but it would be a place these things could at least be pointed in the future if it existed, with maybe stricter outline of what might belong there versus as a formal complaint if such a thing existed.

Well, what are people supposed to do? What is anyone supposed to do?

This or that issue pops up a lot. It can be a random dispute, it can be a private issue with some staff member, it can be an opinion about a request - none of these things are very rare. Nine times out of then, staff make very clear what the suggested resolution is: please send in a request.

Okay then. People do this. It may even drive burnout. But to first ask that people send requests and then notice there are, in fact, a lot of requests.....

Yeah.