So, this is something I've thought about for a while, I've played a good few crafters and I can't help but feel like they're pretty held back compared to things like combat/wilderness/criminal classes. I'm not going to say my opinion is objective, but I have talked to other players about it to see if I'm not the only person who feels this way, so I'd like to think it's at least an opinion that's shared slightly.

Great Merchant Houses
So this is going to be my primary, and biggest point of contention about the bad place player crafters are in. People often joke about about GMH crafters being vending machines, and since I've started playing, it honestly feels like this has gotten worse. GMH crafters basically have no rights, you're dragged around with wherever your merchant wants to go, you can't make your own deals, you cannot sell anything, you sit in your warehouse with the infinite amount of crafting materials your hunters bring you and craft items until your skills go up. Of course, you can still roleplay... But that's about it. Your freedoms are stripped with basically no real return. Sure you get access to food and water, but those things aren't really an issue. More of a subjective thing, but I find contracting hunters for materials and buying them from shops half of the fun.

I do also want to add to this, the complete lack of autonomy also can make the game a massive pain for people wanting to buy things from GMHs, because if you want an item, you have to hope that the singular merchant each house has happens to be available at the same time you are available. This has led to a good few occassions where I simply just never get an item or it takes far too long. Even if we talk about crafters basically having no rights being 'thematic' and 'making sense', is it particularly fun for players to be chained to a workshop to craft items to sell to a vendor that only the merchant can use?

On the flipside, you could say 'just play an indie crafter then!' but indie crafters are equally screwed because all the best items come from the houses, so it's hard to make business with players who are going to default to buying from a merchant house.

Custom Crafting
Now I have to say, compared to other MUDs, Armageddon kinda slacks on the custom crafting side. One craft per month is incredibly lackluster when it's supposed to be one of the main draws of playing a full crafter, and a reason to not just go combat/crafter when it comes to guilds (but even then, most crafter subguilds get master crafter anyway). On top of this, the new changes to master crafting weapons kinda incentivizes making weapons and not other items. Every custom craft you do that's not a weapon, is a custom craft that's not helping you make better weapons. I don't particularly like this system, because it drags out a project to multiple IRL months, which doesn't feel quite fair on crafter players.

I do understand that the issue is that every CC needs to be approved and manually coded into the game, which has it's own issues of both staff workload and in game crafting bloat. But I think the simplest answer would be to let full, T5 crafters change the m/l/s description of items they craft. Just make it so people aren't allowed rules-wise to alter the descriptions to completely go against what the original item is. This both gives crafters the creative freedom to make cool, personalized items without waiting a month and without adding more work for staff. In fact, this is what other MUDs do, you make a generic item, and then the crafter can personalize said item. We already have systems in place for writing and drawing things that don't require staff approval, so I feel like this wouldn't be much of a stretch?

If you work for a GMH (I'll use Salarr as I have leadership experience there), you are the most valuable asset as a crafter. Merchants sell stuff, Crew Leaders hire other crafters, Agents do a bit of everything but are (generally) second fiddle to anyone else in a 'stream'.

So Amos crafter works on either filling orders or getting better so they can fill orders, they do not sell their work, they do not sell Salarr resources or products to line their pockets.

You were hired to craft, you will be protected and cared for so you don't have to worry about securing food, water and shelter but you give up some or all of your independence in exchange for it.

Naturally your GMH crafter experience will be varied based on character history, interactions and so on. But there you go.

In my experience, Merchants tend to be artisan or heavy crafter-style classes. Making their crafters a moot point.

There is nothing a crafter can make, that can't be ordered through the Warehouse. You just don't get as much of a profit from it.

Even a full Crafter, or Senior Crafter, has very little leeway to do much of anything. Your job is to churn out product, but that is it. There's no further path for you, and current rules prohibit a "second merchant" in GMH clans so you're stuck.

Crafters need to be looked at, with GMH clans. Full stop.

Quote from: Riev on October 08, 2023, 12:23:58 PMIn my experience, Merchants tend to be artisan or heavy crafter-style classes. Making their crafters a moot point.

There is nothing a crafter can make, that can't be ordered through the Warehouse. You just don't get as much of a profit from it.

Even a full Crafter, or Senior Crafter, has very little leeway to do much of anything. Your job is to churn out product, but that is it. There's no further path for you, and current rules prohibit a "second merchant" in GMH clans so you're stuck.

Crafters need to be looked at, with GMH clans. Full stop.

This is pretty much my point. Crafter PCs are just kinda absorbed into these GMHs and stop really being characters to a point. In other MUDs I've played, a crafter PC is usually their own boss, offering their own unique things and style with their own shops. In Armageddon, crafters in GMHs are redundant coin-printers who's job can be replaced by the merchant either crafting the item themselves, or doing a requisition request.

The way I see it, is you don't get a job as a cashier in your local super market, and expect to get manager jobs on the first day, you have to work your way to that.  You wouldn't be trusted at all to make big deals, or handle the 'big cash', or make decisions for trade, you would have to spend years proving yourself trustworthy to the company, before you'd be allowed to do so.

Same thing with joining a merchant house. 

You start at the bottom, and you work your way up.  This to me, is realistic, and the way GMH's have always been.  A recruit is a recruit because you don't know anything about them, they have to prove themselves to the House, to warrant being able to do trustworthy things.  You have a clan leader that you work for.  If you do good work, you're noticed by the House and you get promotions and perks. 

Quote from: Kestria on October 08, 2023, 12:31:57 PMYou start at the bottom, and you work your way up.  This to me, is realistic, and the way GMH's have always been.  A recruit is a recruit because you don't know anything about them, they have to prove themselves to the House, to warrant being able to do trustworthy things.  You have a clan leader that you work for.  If you do good work, you're noticed by the House and you get promotions and perks. 

Realistic doesn't mean fun, and it's not realistic, it's just the way the setting is written. In 'realistic' feudal settings, systems like this wouldn't be nearly as strict, merchants and crafters were usually the same thing and the majority were independent. Arm's merchant houses have a very artificial and forced monopoly, which is intentional.

Also people can't work up to playing a merchant, as they're limited slot-wise.

Quote from: Kestria on October 08, 2023, 12:31:57 PMYou start at the bottom, and you work your way up.  This to me, is realistic, and the way GMH's have always been.  A recruit is a recruit because you don't know anything about them, they have to prove themselves to the House, to warrant being able to do trustworthy things.  You have a clan leader that you work for.  If you do good work, you're noticed by the House and you get promotions and perks.

In my argument, I wasn't saying "having to wait is the hard part", its the role itself. I think in Kavrick's original post, it was similar.

Quote from: Kavrick on October 08, 2023, 12:41:20 PM

Quote from: Kestria on October 08, 2023, 12:31:57 PMYou start at the bottom, and you work your way up.  This to me, is realistic, and the way GMH's have always been.  A recruit is a recruit because you don't know anything about them, they have to prove themselves to the House, to warrant being able to do trustworthy things.  You have a clan leader that you work for.  If you do good work, you're noticed by the House and you get promotions and perks.

Realistic doesn't mean fun, and it's not realistic, it's just the way the setting is written. In 'realistic' feudal settings, systems like this wouldn't be nearly as strict, merchants and crafters were usually the same thing and the majority were independent. Arm's merchant houses have a very artificial and forced monopoly, which is intentional.

Also people can't work up to playing a merchant, as they're limited slot-wise.

You are mistaken here, they can.  There is one slot per GMH for a /sponsored/ role in.

Kavrick, this is an excellent idea, and you make a robust, well thought out point. I can't see a single thing wrong with your examples, and I've always thought those with staff trust (karma) should be allowed more use of that trust (echoes, changing descs of items). It would reduce staff workload.

Merely being allowed to sell things as a crafter (to other PCs) would be a game changer in terms of 'Can I do anything with agency or affect the world with my skills' for GMH crafters.






I don't think the status quo should be upheld merely because it's the status quo. I don't think we should ignore the complaints of players who says 'I am frigging bored, I feel trapped, and unable to participate in this jailcell of a role that keeps diminishing in power' just because the IC setting has set rules for the IC people. Those rules came from an OOC perspective to help try and streamline a process and improve playability, we are not robots beholden to our own code.

Quote from: Kestria on October 08, 2023, 12:44:54 PMYou are mistaken here, they can.  There is one slot per GMH for a /sponsored/ role in.

That's fair, but I would like to ask how many people have actually managed to do it. I only know of one character in my 7 months of playing that managed to become a merchant organically.

Quote from: Kavrick on October 08, 2023, 12:48:17 PM

Quote from: Kestria on October 08, 2023, 12:44:54 PMYou are mistaken here, they can.  There is one slot per GMH for a /sponsored/ role in.

That's fair, but I would like to ask how many people have actually managed to do it. I only know of one character in my 7 months of playing that managed to become a merchant organically.

I, myself, have done so twice.  It takes time, because again, with the trust.  You cannot expect to be given such responsibility within one in game year.  The path is usually several in game years to become a trainee merchant, unless you have shown exceptional skill.

Quote from: Kestria on October 08, 2023, 01:05:38 PMI, myself, have done so twice.  It takes time, because again, with the trust.  You cannot expect to be given such responsibility within one in game year.  The path is usually several in game years to become a trainee merchant, unless you have shown exceptional skill.

I don't want this to devolve into a constant back and forth so I just want to leave my opinion simple. Yes, I know you can eventually become a merchant, I don't think the average character manages to do so and I don't think it excuses the sweat-shop conditions that is playing a GMH crafter. This thread wasn't made to say that it's too hard to become a merchant, it's that being a crafter is miserable. The answer to this isn't 'Well anyone can become a merchant' because you can't just expect everyone to put up with multiple irl months of unfun gameplay to maybe become a merchant even if it suits their character.

how do I double like this last post?

If you want to be your own boss, manage your own sales, and manage your own material flow, you can indeed, be an indy crafter. If you want your own shop, you can pursue that. (In fact, with the current state of MMH things, all you need for a warehouse is the thumbs up from staff and from a Templar).

I do think that it's the onus of the merchant, and any leader, sponsored or not, to, within the theme of the clan and game, allow people their own fun and projects. If you are using your crafters as custom craft factories, I agree that you are sucking the fun out of the role, if someone doesn't want to do that. But I think if you work with your people, it can be fun. (Hey Amos, you are big about swords, right? Go talk to Lady Tor about this greatsword she wants.)
What I do agree with, is that GMH crafters should be allowed perhaps one extra craft, if it's only for house crafts.
I think a more streamlined Custom Craft system would help with that.

So I think the onus lies heavily on leadership to create more fun apart from sweatshopping it. But that's hard, and needs a good collaboration with your minions.

Quote from: zealus on October 08, 2023, 03:14:08 PMIf you want to be your own boss, manage your own sales, and manage your own material flow, you can indeed, be an indy crafter. If you want your own shop, you can pursue that. (In fact, with the current state of MMH things, all you need for a warehouse is the thumbs up from staff and from a Templar).

Sadly being an indie crafter is stifled by the artificial oligopoly of the merchant houses, otherwise I would agree with you.

Quote from: Kavrick on October 08, 2023, 03:28:54 PM

Quote from: zealus on October 08, 2023, 03:14:08 PMIf you want to be your own boss, manage your own sales, and manage your own material flow, you can indeed, be an indy crafter. If you want your own shop, you can pursue that. (In fact, with the current state of MMH things, all you need for a warehouse is the thumbs up from staff and from a Templar).

Sadly being an indie crafter is stifled by the artificial oligopoly of the merchant houses, otherwise I would agree with you.

GMH have spent hundreds of years becoming masters in their fields that they are 'top' of and 'control' the market of.  I wouldn't imagine a 2 year brand new shop would know how to make exquisite weapons and armors such as Salarr has, that they have been perfecting for generations and invested in millions of coins to get to. 
There are MANY indie recipes for weapons however, despite this, but they will never be Salarr quality.  Unless you wish to start a competing empire there. 

As I said in a similar post a while ago in regards to merchant houses.. Build a player clan that focuses on trying to over throw Kadius or Kurac or Salarr. Will you win?  Possibly not, but at least you had fun trying to enforce your ideas into the game.

Kestria, can I ask ....

Are you arguing that GMH is a great role
or
Are you arguing that being a crafter sucks

Please confirm.

Quote from: Kavrick on October 08, 2023, 03:28:54 PM

Quote from: zealus on October 08, 2023, 03:14:08 PMIf you want to be your own boss, manage your own sales, and manage your own material flow, you can indeed, be an indy crafter. If you want your own shop, you can pursue that. (In fact, with the current state of MMH things, all you need for a warehouse is the thumbs up from staff and from a Templar).

Sadly being an indie crafter is stifled by the artificial oligopoly of the merchant houses, otherwise I would agree with you.

But this is intended. Working as it should. Like Kestria said, you can absolutely fight it, and likely have assassins descend upon your lowly MMH, and pulverize you into dust.

Quote from: Tailong on October 08, 2023, 05:34:39 PMBut this is intended. Working as it should. Like Kestria said, you can absolutely fight it, and likely have assassins descend upon your lowly MMH, and pulverize you into dust.

Yeah, kinda bums me out. I really wish the game was more about player-driven clans and groups over infinitely virtual giga-clans that just do whatever they want. I don't really see how any of this is a good thing aside from "It's like that because it's written that way."

Quote from: Kavrick on October 08, 2023, 05:49:27 PM

Quote from: Tailong on October 08, 2023, 05:34:39 PMBut this is intended. Working as it should. Like Kestria said, you can absolutely fight it, and likely have assassins descend upon your lowly MMH, and pulverize you into dust.

Yeah, kinda bums me out. I really wish the game was more about player-driven clans and groups over infinitely virtual giga-clans that just do whatever they want. I don't really see how any of this is a good thing aside from "It's like that because it's written that way."

We all knew and agreed to that when we starting playing here. I don't see the issue? This is the world we have all agreed to play in, the lore was placed out 30+ IRL years ago and is available for you to read long before you begin play. Thousands of years have made the GMHs untouchable, and protected.

You can absolutely have player driven clans, and maybe even have those clans become MMHs over time, but it takes a lot of work. Hell, even the current GMHs are player driven for the most part, just have NPCs in the background making sure they dont screw it up.

I havn't played any on the inside but from the outside many of the clans in the game do feel interchangeable and homogeneous. Huge monolithic entity the crushes dissent and competition under foot? Okay. They all feel the same.

This Lore might be old, but how old are the rules saying a crafter can't sell items to a noble? Pretty new, comparatively. And who were they written by? Staff/players.

These aren't the immutable laws of the universe here. This isn't /one/ narcissist's D&D game.

Someone (actually multiple people over the course of several years) is saying 'Hey, the experience in these clans is stifling, boring, and it's /only/ about doing one thing over and over and over.


Why is the response 'That's just the way it is.'?

Why is the response 'If you don't like it, play something else.'?

Why is the response 'That's the lore, GMH's are powerful, indies aren't'?



Tell me, what's canonically wrong or so against setting and lore about US, collectively deciding that GMH's could allow commoner crafters to sell their House wares to commoners?

Quote from: zealus on October 08, 2023, 03:14:08 PMI do think that it's the onus of the merchant, and any leader, sponsored or not, to, within the theme of the clan and game, allow people their own fun and projects. If you are using your crafters as custom craft factories, I agree that you are sucking the fun out of the role, if someone doesn't want to do that. But I think if you work with your people, it can be fun. (Hey Amos, you are big about swords, right? Go talk to Lady Tor about this greatsword she wants.)

No, as it is, Amos cannot talk to Lady Tor about this greatsword she wants In Game because Amos is just a crafter. There are artificially spawned rules (meaning they were created outside the setting, and put into it, not created inside the setting, and we're just respecting the game's world or lore), and GMH Merchants (the people playing the leaders in a Greater Merchant House) technically can't break these IC rules without breaking OOC rules. They are and were arbitrary, they had an intention, the intention was to make it fun for people....


And some of those people are saying it failed.

We can, if you so choose, continue to tell them 'That's just the rules' or 'That's just the setting'. I do not encourage it, we are not reinforcing anything real, or necessary, other than our own, handwritten rules that were aimed at helping us all have fun. There's a term in the academic field for enforcing rules merely because they are rules, and I don't know what the term is. Can someone please help me explain this concept? Or, if I am wrong, please help me see it.

Quote from: Kavrick on October 08, 2023, 05:49:27 PM

Quote from: Tailong on October 08, 2023, 05:34:39 PMBut this is intended. Working as it should. Like Kestria said, you can absolutely fight it, and likely have assassins descend upon your lowly MMH, and pulverize you into dust.

Yeah, kinda bums me out. I really wish the game was more about player-driven clans and groups over infinitely virtual giga-clans that just do whatever they want. I don't really see how any of this is a good thing aside from "It's like that because it's written that way."

I want to start off with, 'the game' is absolutely about player driven clans. I know this isn't the topic, but it was brought up, so I will speak on this first. For those of you new to the game there was a time where GMH's were allowed as many hunters as they wanted. There was a hunting side, and a crafter side, (and of course the leader side). Then staff did away with hunters. One of the main reason, was to get more player clans out there, more indies to start up crews of their own. I played a Sponsored Salarri during this time, matter of fact, they just let hunters back in what a year or two ago? (After my Salarri was killed) And, let me tell you the struggles of trying to find indies out there, hunters, that didn't either go and get themselves killed, or take up employment in the Byn or something, was HARD. She (the Salarri), even tried funding them herself. With that being said. There are multiple player driven clans out there right now, quite a few to be honest, but all that is FOIC.

Now, to the actual topic of crafters, and how horrible it is to be one? I've played multiple crafters in my time, and just like Kestria, moved up in rank a couple different times. Guess what I didn't do, to do this? Hid in the crafters hall twinking all the time I was on line. I went out and found RP, I made friends, I socialized with those that I needed to. From my experience, crafters are not FORCED to sit and craft all day long, and if you ever feel like you have been, then that's when MCB comes in, start plots to get your TYRANT boss out of there. Or, try a different House/area to play in. They took Lifeswearing out of GMH's a long time ago. Soo, you don't have to stay there.

The best part about armageddon is that you make YOUR story, sure staff puts their hands in things, sometimes when you don't want them to, but ultimately, you as the player have some say in how things go. Can you make the wrong decision and get killed over it? Sure, but have fun with it.

A boring crafter is only boring, because the player makes them that way. Yes, it is the responsibility in my opinion that the Leader of the House make sure that the crafter/recruit has things to do, and try to keep things going for them, however we need to remember that the player on the other side is trying to have fun too, and not only that but having to do their leader things. There are also other options for ranking with crafters, Master Crafter is a thing, and sometimes people don't want that Merchant title.

Just to brag a little, and it doesn't have to do with being a crafter, but just an example of how easy it can be to rank up in certain circumstances, my Bynner went from Runner, to pretty much Sergeant in an ic Year, because she busted her ass and did what she needed to get there. I have another example, but one I cannot share. Lets just say, if you put in the work, let it known to Staff the moment you start your character your goal is to be Merchant. IT CAN HAPPEN QUICKLY...

I think that is all I have to say, for now.

Edited out a sarcastic reply.

I think the best advice from above is that you should inform staff in the request tool of the role you want to occupy.

Quote from: Feu de Joie on October 08, 2023, 11:25:37 PMNo, as it is, Amos cannot talk to Lady Tor about this greatsword she wants In Game because Amos is just a crafter.

Yes he can.
What he can not do, is decide for the merchant that yes, they are doing that.
If I, as a merchant, decide that yes, we're doing this order, and I want Amos the crafter on it (which, if I am worth my salt, I discuss with him), then yes, he can handle the rest. The merchant just does the financials. In fact, it's indispensable to delegate things to your minions, both to avoid them getting bored, and to give them a sense of contribution.
This process, as the crafter becomes more and more trusted, can become shorter. "Merchant, you said the silk skirt is always around two large, so I sold one to amos the fashionista. Ah, very good, crafter.
Like you said. The rules are not immutable.