Lets Talk about Crafters

[CirclelessBard]

My recent experience in GMHs is pretty limited so I can't confidently comment on that.

However I do think custom crafts could be handled quite a bit better than they currently are, under a modified system that is more geared towards custom crafts. I don't think that staff are doing a bad job at all with the system as it currently stands, especially with the way Diku works, which makes item customizing difficult. Each instance of an item in the game references the template of the item in the database, and only saves a limited handful of variables on itself. For example, if my character is holding a partially eaten kalan fruit, it gets its description from the database, but how eaten it is and how close it is to rotting are individually saved to the instance of the item. That makes customizing existing items really hard, because the code for customizing items will ultimately change the template of the item, and everyone's instance of the item will change along with it. The templates are referenced by a database number and belong to individual "zones" (subgroups in the database).

Although I've never seen the code used by Armageddon specifically, my hunch is that like base Diku, there are commands that enable item template creation and editing in the database, that are currently limited to staff. If the command for editing was available to players, but only for custom crafted items, then there could potentially be a new workflow for custom crafting:
1) Player submits the idea for the item. Assuming staff approve...
2) Staff create the base "new item" object. It has a database reference number R.
3) Staff give it to the player like a reimbursement when they are next online. They also set the player with a variable that says that they can edit item R in the database.
4) Now the player can use the item editing command, but only on item R.
5) The player saves the item, locking in the template for the item in the database and removing their ability to edit it further.

This would shift the building work to the player doing the custom craft. The staff would most likely still need to set up the craft itself in the file that holds the craft recipes, but this would heavily cut down on the amount of staff time used on custom crafts and probably allow the once-a-month restriction to be adjusted.

[Feu de Joie]

@zealus

I made a mistake. I thought they were actually immutable in this current state, and that was the source of much strife. Thank you for the clarification. Civil to boot, kudos.

[Trevalyan]

So, a few points. First of all, while independence is limited, that's by design. People who want to take risks usually want to do it either in the combat or stealth/ theft spheres. Which is fine, but then there's a real risk all the investment a Merchant makes into you can evaporate over one bad decision. I don't know who's sweatshopping their GMH crafter hires, but they should absolutely stop. You can't progress that much in code per day, and a gradual learning path will make for better profits while developing the characters over a long period of time. If only there was an in-game sphere where you could provide the merchants with what they want while maintaining your independence and taking the risk of where your meals would generally come from. If only.

Crafters are USUALLY not trusted to run the deals themselves, partly because it makes merchants superfluous. But it's more than possible for a crafter to have a lot of RP talking to the client, the client's people, and developing their custom craft into an actual item of legend- not just producing +5 Boots of Spice Stomping. Noble items can't be crafted due to an exploit in the past, and I doubt the producers are interested in changing that any time soon.

I don't think any of the GMHs have a problem with independent minor houses popping up. Quite a few are very ready to make deals with them. But if a critical character dies in a GMH, the producers can put out a rolecall. At worst the House would be closed and set vNPC to rebuild. If a major character dies in an independent house, the entire project can irretrievably crash into the ground.

[Riev]

And yet, despite the snarkiness, the crafter role in a GMH is still not seen as lucrative by many people.

I recently played one within the last couple years. A successful one. It ended up not being all that fun, because I realized that 1/5th of our crafts were removed because "Noble/Clan only" stuff got removed, and the things you were left with?

"I demand Very Good or Amazing only weapons"
".. Alright. Here's a Very Good hunting spear"
"No not that one"
"Its the only one we have"
"Make me a new one"


The role of crafter is Thankless outside of your Merchant, if that. Nobody cares who you are, or what you do, so long as the Merchant can get their hands on that spear.

The incentive to be a crafter doesn't exist, without growth. Being a Crafter/Master Crafter just means you have to train the NEWBIE crafters. You don't get anything more than extra pay for being a Master Crafter. You don't get more slots. You don't get more opportunities.

I don't care about the free food. I care about keeping someone in that position without them feeling unnecessary.

[dumbstruck]

good stuff

One more reason why I keep trying to nudge to open up more slots for GMH Merchants (and Nobles, but that's another thread) than just the one or whatever typical in each that gets sponsored in, apped in via rolecall. Because as it is, the sole reason why 'crafter' exists separate of Merchant is to 'keep the merchants from being superfluous', but if the people who wanted to play the merchants could just play them more freely, then 'Crafter' and even 'Master Crafter' wouldn't just be a stepping stone, it could at least be examined as its own separate role worthy of examination rather than a hurdle to be surmounted on the way to the actually desirable positions. Which is one of the things the current system kind of forces it into. That said, that alone wouldn't entirely address the issue.

I think in addition to this making it so that Master Crafters got an extra master/custom craft for personal use aside from the one for House use might be good. So might making their salary as good or better than Merchants. Why? Merchants got nothing to sell if the crafters don't make it. And without the Master Crafters it's all scrub level like the rest of the shit in the bazaar and Merchants get mad commission anyhow. Maybe even an extra (but optional, because some people don't want a bunch of uniform bits but some do) piece of uniform/livery to denote their elite station as Master Crafters or something. I think there's a few different places where things could be done to improve and incentivize the Crafter experience.

[Trevalyan]

For the record, dumbstruck, I really like the idea of GMH Crafters getting an additional customcraft slot: one for their GMH job, one for personal use. Works for me. Bear in mind, though, that when GMH workers get additional customcraft slots, that likely includes the Blooded merchants themselves. Do they really need more power and opportunity, or would that make the normal crafters less necessary?

Oh, and a good number of them also get uniform changes to reflect their increased status. Maybe they could get more: I wouldn't object.
 

"I demand Very Good or Amazing only weapons"
".. Alright. Here's a Very Good hunting spear"
"No not that one"
"Its the only one we have"
"Make me a new one"


The role of crafter is Thankless outside of your Merchant, if that. Nobody cares who you are, or what you do, so long as the Merchant can get their hands on that spear.

The incentive to be a crafter doesn't exist, without growth. Being a Crafter/Master Crafter just means you have to train the NEWBIE crafters. You don't get anything more than extra pay for being a Master Crafter. You don't get more slots. You don't get more opportunities.

So GMH crafters:
- don't get respect
- don't get enough pay
- don't get opportunities to express themselves

It sounds like independent crafting would be more your speed. I've seen minor merchant houses: they can't produce the ultra top-tier weapons of House Salarr, break in to the near-monopoly of the Kuraci spice trade, or deal with the fact House Kadius has major ties with the nobility across the Known, but otherwise they can compete just fine. Merchant Houses dedicated to resource extraction or dealing with products that merchants don't specialize in might actually enjoy major benefits- the GMHs could actually welcome and protect them just to expand overall merchant influence.

You'd think people would be more respectful of GMH crafters, not less. Sure, you can insult an independent crafter: but if you want a custom crafted weapon, you don't have a ton of options on where you get that weapon, and just about none if you insist on amazing quality. Really anger Salarr, and they have the resources to push you out of whatever position you're in. Might they not bother exerting that influence for their crafters? The merchants I see IG would LOVE to see responsible, assertive, creative crafters capable of playing on the team.

But if that doesn't convince you, what opportunity do you want GMH crafters to have that they couldn't get as independent crafters?

[Tuannon]

A good merchant would reward their talented crafter(s) though, even if they have to collude with their clan staff to give bumps of appreciation to their money makers, I would have thought that made sense.

I know I used to lean on people for not working hard enough, but reward the ones that did. It's a give and take system, after all.

[Kavrick]

so, after reading through this topic and talking to some friends, I have come to a potentially controversial opinion. I don't think GMHs need crafters as a rank, I think the system could work better than it currently does just by making people start as a junior merchant. Right now, crafters don't really have a use outside printing off money for the merchant. A merchant who's playing something like an artisan can easily just make all of the crafters redundant by both doing deals and crafting the items required for the deals, merchant is just crafter+ when it comes to how GMHs work. I do think some people need to 'suck it up', with no offence meant when it comes to some things, GMHs no longer have the numbers they used to, relying on a single merchant per house just makes things clunky and unenjoyable for multiple parties. If you want a high, managing rank in a GMH, it already exists and I seldom see it used, and that is the GMH Agent.

In my opinion, you could restructure how GMHs work to something like this:

Junior Merchant:
- Starting rank for someone joining a GMH as a crafter sort
- Is expected to learn from the higher ranks and conduct themselves carefully
- Has a responsibility to keep Sallari/Kuraci/Kadian shops stocked with more mundane items for usual sales

Standard Merchant
- Rank after finishing your probation year without any issues
- Can make player-to-player deals when it comes to selling clan items
- Is expected to at least help along Junior merchants and be a reasonable representative when necessary

Senior Merchant
- Rank after x amount of time or being chosen by an agent
- Can recruit new merchants when necessary
- Is expected to be the usual representative when it comes to making higher profile deals
- Is also expected to train new crafters which they recruit and report their performance to an agent

Agents
I'll admit I don't properly know the structure for agents because I rarely ever see them, and I've only seen puppeted agents rather than player ones. But from what I can assume, Agents basically play the role of doing more parallel work. Agents would be the ones to oversee HR properly, keeping an eye on the crafters and the hunters along with recruiting new ones and demoting/firing/punishing people who mess up. I'd think that people born in the merchant family would be junior agents rather than junior merchants, expected to run the business on a more macro level rathe than micro.

I think this would help when it comes to the weird relationship between crafters and merchants, and I also think it would give a proper identity to the different roles, rather than crafters of all ranks basically being the same thing with a different pay grade.

[Riev]

So GMH crafters:
- don't get respect
- don't get enough pay
- don't get opportunities to express themselves

But if that doesn't convince you, what opportunity do you want GMH crafters to have that they couldn't get as independent crafters?

You answered my question for me.

Crafters do not get enough respect for their position. There are current issues in the system where the best way to "make money" is to grind-craft a bunch of items that nobody is buying, but the House NPC will pay you for and just leads to an overloaded NPC merchant. The only way to express yourself is to sacrifice one of your "crafting slots" by not making it a House-specific item which is an EGREGIOUS offense.

I understand we're disagreeing here, but at no point do I think its appropriate for you to say that "I think independent crafting is what you want". What I am asking for is a justification for a "Crafter" position in a GMH when the Sponsored Role can craft the same things you can, and if they NEED it, they can just order it from the warehouse.

I agree with Tuannon that a merchant "SHOULD" do certain things, but they do not. I played for a long while, and I very rarely felt like I had any more repute than a Recruit Crafter. The general playerbase doesn't give a flying fuck if you're a Recruit, a crafter, or a Master Crafter. They don't know, they don't care, and they want their custom craft right now.


To put it simply: The Crafter position feels like it is not a necessary or respected position in the current era and is often treated as the same thing Merchants would complain about; a vending machine whose job is to run crafting skill checks to make me money.

[Trevalyan]

Crafters do not get enough respect for their position. There are current issues in the system where the best way to "make money" is to grind-craft a bunch of items that nobody is buying, but the House NPC will pay you for and just leads to an overloaded NPC merchant. The only way to express yourself is to sacrifice one of your "crafting slots" by not making it a House-specific item which is an EGREGIOUS offense.

I understand we're disagreeing here, but at no point do I think its appropriate for you to say that "I think independent crafting is what you want". What I am asking for is a justification for a "Crafter" position in a GMH when the Sponsored Role can craft the same things you can, and if they NEED it, they can just order it from the warehouse.

I agree with Tuannon that a merchant "SHOULD" do certain things, but they do not. I played for a long while, and I very rarely felt like I had any more repute than a Recruit Crafter. The general playerbase doesn't give a flying fuck if you're a Recruit, a crafter, or a Master Crafter. They don't know, they don't care, and they want their custom craft right now.


To put it simply: The Crafter position feels like it is not a necessary or respected position in the current era and is often treated as the same thing Merchants would complain about; a vending machine whose job is to run crafting skill checks to make me money.

I'm not terribly happy with how the money game works in Armageddon, and not playing guarantees losing. I think that's a different discussion, but if we could find a way to make sales feel like less of a spamcraft game I'd be happy with it.

So there's two things you want: an irreplaceable role within the GMHs, and respect from the general playerbase. The fact there's a coded fiscal advantage to crafters is a major reason for the merchants to treat you with respect, and a vital justification for having PC crafters. They should at least give you some of the money they make because of your presence, never mind the major advantage they get from your ability to custom craft. Discounts on the things you make would be nice as well. There are very few roles that are truly indispensable to any group within Zalanthas: commonborn crafters are valuable, but they're never going more valuable than sponsored roles within the GMH.

But at least you're likely to get some respect as a crafter within your own GMH. There are players who don't and never will have respect for anyone but their immediate organizational superiors (and sometimes not even then). And the merchants are more than capable of leaning on people who get along poorly with them inside cities. I don't even think elite combatants or noble characters are guaranteed respect, so how could GMH crafters expect the same? Though a merchant really should blacklist customers who are terribly entitled and annoying about asking for high-value merchandise without paying high-value prices.

I've talked to people in game who weren't suited to being in the GMHs and could have thrived as independent crafters. I've had a character who would have been a fine independent crafter. There are currently crafters who are absolutely fine with how things are going in the GMHs, and there are independent crafters who have excellent reputations among the other PCs in their sphere. There's a lot of support for your position on the GDB, which is just fine, but clearly those crafters don't agree and aren't going to.