Armageddon General Discussion Board

I've been reading the documentation again lately, and I've once more been impressed with the information we have available regarding clothing (http://www.armageddon.org/general/clothing.html#Allanak) in Zalanthas.

What I've noticed though, is that often, the documentation regarding clothing and fashion is not the same as clothing and fashion followed by PCs in game. What might be provocative and risque by the documentation gets almost no reaction from PCs in game. One of the most prominent examples is Allanaki commoners wearing silk. Even GMH family members should likely follow some form of Allanaki fashion, but the common theme is apparently silk, silk, and more silk.

The different styles of clothing available to PCs I think also has an impact on this. Some clothing just doesn't seem appropriate to be found too frequently in Allanak, but the availability of it, as well as the cost, seems to promote the bending of "tradition". Thick, one-layered leather coats, or pieces of clothing so revealing not even a 'nakki whore would wear...

I'm probably nit-picking a bit in order to make a point, but do other players notice such things? What could be done to change player perception if it is a little off from documentation? Does it even matter versus playability?

Eh.  I think you can find examples of documented fashion done right just as easily as you can find examples of it done wrong.

Also, there should be a distinction between independent commoners and GMH/noble employed commoners.  Most nobles would be quite happy with their (mid-senior level) aides going about decked out in silks and finery.  What is says about them is "I'm so rich and important that even my servants are swathed in silks!"  But the fact that house employees make up a disproportionate section of the playerbase could make it seem like silk is all the rage among commoners.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on February 11, 2011, 12:21:53 PM
Eh.  I think you can find examples of documented fashion done right just as easily as you can find examples of it done wrong.

Also, there should be a distinction between independent commoners and GMH/noble employed commoners.  Most nobles would be quite happy with their (mid-senior level) aides going about decked out in silks and finery.  What is says about them is "I'm so rich and important that even my servants are swathed in silks!"  But the fact that house employees make up a disproportionate section of the playerbase could make it seem like silk is all the rage among commoners.

The thing is, Allanak is all about visible distinctions. There's no way a noble would allow a commoner come even remotely close to looking like another noble. Some silk in the hair, or in the lacing of an aide's skirt would be allowable, but allowing them to wear a silk dress from head to toe would be taboo...

That's the difference between Tuluk and Allanak culture, and I think the most apparent way to see those differences is in fashion, and how each city-state interprets it. In Tuluk, sure commoners and nobles both wear silk, but there's much more finer differences (in tattoos, for example) that distinguishes Chosen from Commoner. This is almost the opposite in Allanak. It would be humiliating for a noble to be seen dressed even remotely like a commoner, and a commoner dressed as a noble would be suicidal in most cases.

I guess players may be mistaken about what Allanak tradition is. Would fleshing that out more perhaps improve Allanaki fashion as well?

I also wish the shop selections better reflected the fashion guidelines.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on February 11, 2011, 12:21:53 PM
Eh.  I think you can find examples of documented fashion done right just as easily as you can find examples of it done wrong.

Also, there should be a distinction between independent commoners and GMH/noble employed commoners.  Most nobles would be quite happy with their (mid-senior level) aides going about decked out in silks and finery.  What is says about them is "I'm so rich and important that even my servants are swathed in silks!"  But the fact that house employees make up a disproportionate section of the playerbase could make it seem like silk is all the rage among commoners.

Quote from: Social MoresNoble livery is nearly always silk, while house employee attire is usually sewn of lesser fabric. The notable exception to this custom would be in the case of a concubine, consort or sometimes even pleasure slave. Often, a lord or lady will dress these very personal servants in silks and jewels as a display of their noble benefactor's power and wealth. Placing a guard or other lower servant in silk might lead to confusion about status and place and is rarely done except for the most formal of occasion.

Concubines and pleasure slaves are not "aides", and having an aide dressed like one would be something of ridicule for the noble... In general, I think a good habit for anyone to make is checking with a reliable source before posting.

There are fashion police in game in Allanak. Perhaps they just haven't seen the person in question.

Part of the problem with clothing is that the sole criterion for how wealthy a garment makes one appear is material.

Quality of tailoring should be apparent as well (as an actual coded parameter, rather than the present unsystematic descriptions), especially for those with an eye for such things (value skill, clothworking skill).

Great gobs of money could be spent at tailors to ensure that a garment is a perfect fit. Nobles would have such clothes. Commoners, even in silk, might find their clothes to be ill-fitting or at least not quite right.

Also, if clothes would fray a little over time, a commoner might quickly start to look a little shabby in silk he/she couldn't afford to replace regularly. Whereas a noble would have new clothes for each season.

I had a character who repeatedly rolled her eyes and snickered behind the backs of people wearing silk that shouldn't have been, or wore clothes which were way too revealing, in Allanak.  And characters who have started rumors about how Silky must be sleeping with so-and-so for them to deck them out in such frippery.  I've also had commoner characters who absolutely refuse to deck themselves out in silk unless an employer requires it.  Actually--this is the majority of my commoners.  I think fine linens are underrated.

So yes.  People do notice and care when people don't follow the fashion documentation in game.  You might not notice people having overt IC reactions about this to peoples' faces, but it does happen, and I've seen it a lot.

Quote from: Barzalene on February 11, 2011, 12:48:45 PM
I also wish the shop selections better reflected the fashion guidelines.

This is perhaps the best answer to the question.  Most PCs want to shop and they want to shop *now*. 

But, the thread's point hasn't been lost on me.   Fighting traditions is one where I've witnessed first hand a Sargent or others have harshly chastised a new recruit for fighting with a style which, by documentation standards, should be commonplace for the area.

Probably because it's a little weird to say "How dare you wear silk in my presence!" or "You're wearing silk.  What a tool."

Edited to add:

QuoteAnd characters who have started rumors about how Silky must be sleeping with so-and-so for them to deck them out in such frippery.

As long as so-and-so isn't going to have you killed for tarnishing their name.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on February 11, 2011, 01:19:27 PM
Part of the problem with clothing is that the sole criterion for how wealthy a garment makes one appear is material.

Quality of tailoring should be apparent as well (as an actual coded parameter, rather than the present unsystematic descriptions), especially for those with an eye for such things (value skill, clothworking skill).

Great gobs of money could be spent at tailors to ensure that a garment is a perfect fit. Nobles would have such clothes. Commoners, even in silk, might find their clothes to be ill-fitting or at least not quite right.

Also, if clothes would fray a little over time, a commoner might quickly start to look a little shabby in silk he/she couldn't afford to replace regularly. Whereas a noble would have new clothes for each season.

True.  Although items bought at Target may follow the same style or cloth (cotton, for example) as clothes/furniture/whatever from a high-end store,  in the end one can always tell small differences.

Under-appreciated,in my opinion, are the silk TRIMMED garments, perfect for the highly placed who know their place.

Quote from: Barzalene on February 11, 2011, 02:02:02 PM
Under-appreciated,in my opinion, are the silk TRIMMED garments, perfect for the highly placed who know their place.

Good post!

It should be noted that yes, there ARE reactions to pc's wearing silks in game.

I've been told on a couple differant pc's I was dressed above my station. There arguements back was usually on the line of "I'm rich bitch"


edit: it also stands to be said that saying such ended badly for me on a pc old enough for me to talk about.

Mugged and left in an alley. Just goes to show. Wear silks, get robbed.

I've purposefully wore silks with some lowly characters to show a sort of rebellious nature. And honestly, I got no true overt reaction over it. All depends on the prominent PC's in the city-state at the time. For example, Joe Schmoe Tor could hate anything lower than him wearing silks while Yippy Dippy Fale could give no crae to the topic. This depends on a lot of things really since the PC population is really the only ones who make the actions apparent.

You could always put NPC's looking at you funny in your emotes and such, that would be vastly amazing in my opinion. ;)

Silk is very much a symbol of status in Allanak, and just because you have money does not make you important.  I am all for those people who are important (high ranking city/noble House employees, GMH family members, nobles, templars) raising a stink about nobody commoners who have the gall to flaunt a bunch of fancy silks and jewelry around town.  If you hang around the Gaj decked out in silks, you should be prepared to deal with getting your fancy duds spilled on, barfed on, or otherwise soiled in some way by the filthy environment.  And remember, just because you can afford to deck yourself out in silk does not mean that you should.  Fully expect to be given a hard time for it if you are nobody of importance.  If you are a gemmer and you dare to wear silk, you should expect to be treated even more poorly than usual, and to end up with nobility and/or templars pissed off by your presumption.

It's also a social faux pas to show skin in Allanak unless you are a whore or concubine.  You should expect to be mistaken for a whore if you wear any sort of revealing clothing, including low-cut tops.  Even the poorest of the poor will cover up as much of their bodies as possible with whatever they can, and generally only show skin because their clothes are falling apart and they can't afford to fix them or get new ones.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on February 11, 2011, 01:19:27 PM
Part of the problem with clothing is that the sole criterion for how wealthy a garment makes one appear is material.

Quality of tailoring should be apparent as well (as an actual coded parameter, rather than the present unsystematic descriptions), especially for those with an eye for such things (value skill, clothworking skill).

Great gobs of money could be spent at tailors to ensure that a garment is a perfect fit. Nobles would have such clothes. Commoners, even in silk, might find their clothes to be ill-fitting or at least not quite right.

Also, if clothes would fray a little over time, a commoner might quickly start to look a little shabby in silk he/she couldn't afford to replace regularly. Whereas a noble would have new clothes for each season.

This is represented, in-game, so an extent. You can find very cheap, secondhand/poor quality silk items amongst commoners.

Quit dressing like whores, damn you! If you want to play the slender, buxom woman and wear nice, risque things, play somewhere other than Allanak!

Bwahahah. The Highlord casts a shadow because he does not want to see skin!

Realistically, you can't really be slender and buxom at the same time.  Women who naturally have large breasts and well padded hips are also well padded in the stomach, and commonly the legs and arms.  Women who are slender tend to naturally have smaller curves, so calling a woman any combination of those two together is an oxymoron.  You can't count on today's images of women from Victoria's Secret and Hollywood (or Barbie - *gag*) to see realistic portrayals of women, because all of those women are either plasticked up or airbrushed, or both.  If you want to see more realistic images of women, look to the portrayals in artwork from the Renaissance era.

/derail

Does this count for men as well.

And, show as little skin as possible but SHOW ALL OF YOUR FACE!!! ;)

Quote from: Niamh on February 11, 2011, 06:22:19 PM
Realistically, you can't really be slender and buxom at the same time.  Women who naturally have large breasts and well padded hips are also well padded in the stomach, and commonly the legs and arms.  Women who are slender tend to naturally have smaller curves, so calling a woman any combination of those two together is an oxymoron.  You can't count on today's images of women from Victoria's Secret and Hollywood (or Barbie - *gag*) to see realistic portrayals of women, because all of those women are either plasticked up or airbrushed, or both.  If you want to see more realistic images of women, look to the portrayals in artwork from the Renaissance era.

/derail

I was totally teasing! <3 I just giggle when I see "slender and with large mounds of breasts" because I think to myself, "Gurth fat injections?"

Quote from: Niamh on February 11, 2011, 04:14:04 PM...It's also a social faux pas to show skin in Allanak unless you are a whore or concubine.  You should expect to be mistaken for a whore if you wear any sort of revealing clothing, including low-cut tops.  Even the poorest of the poor will cover up as much of their bodies as possible with whatever they can, and generally only show skin because their clothes are falling apart and they can't afford to fix them or get new ones.

...unless you're a Fale, in which case it is expected you will show up in the most scandalous attire you can find, intentionally to be scandalous. Or a Kadian, because you own the store and you'll wear whatever you damned well please (assuming your character has the personality that can get away with that excuse).

Quote from: boog on February 11, 2011, 05:31:03 PM
The Highlord casts a shadow because he does not want to see skin!

awsome  8)

Quote from: Niamh on February 11, 2011, 06:22:19 PM
Realistically, you can't really be slender and buxom at the same time.  Women who naturally have large breasts and well padded hips are also well padded in the stomach, and commonly the legs and arms.  Women who are slender tend to naturally have smaller curves, so calling a woman any combination of those two together is an oxymoron.  You can't count on today's images of women from Victoria's Secret and Hollywood (or Barbie - *gag*) to see realistic portrayals of women, because all of those women are either plasticked up or airbrushed, or both.  If you want to see more realistic images of women, look to the portrayals in artwork from the Renaissance era.

/derail

Those aren't particularly realistic either.  ;) Instead of emphasizing the breasts and hips, they got swollen early-pregnancy stomachs.

It would be cool to see more of the ridiculously extravagant and elaborate costumes for the nobility described in the docs.

More often than not, PCs are wearing it. One thing I have noticed is... If the one wearing it isn't using it to RP, others assume it is because they don't want to RP it, or it just doesn't get noticed.

RP your own awesomness and uncomfortableness, other will follow.

Quote from: Sam on February 11, 2011, 09:13:58 PM
More often than not, PCs are wearing it. One thing I have noticed is... If the one wearing it isn't using it to RP, others assume it is because they don't want to RP it, or it just doesn't get noticed.

RP your own awesomness and uncomfortableness, other will follow.

I remember a person played getting a boner and being uncomfortable while viewing a pair of Kadian gals at a public event one time in silks and ... it was the best thing I've ever seen.

are elves of some sort allowed to dress as scimply as they want?

Quote from: Cindy42 on February 11, 2011, 09:47:44 PM
are elves of some sort allowed to dress as scimply as they want?

Would be nice to define what "some sort" of elf you're talking about... though I suspect most proper 'nakki elves would still follow the fashion as anyone else, if simply to blend in. That's a good point though. I don't see other races sticking to the traditional 'nakki attire unless it was required or for other beneficial reasons of their own. They might get ridiculed/discriminated even more than a human would if they didn't, however...

Quote from: Semper on February 11, 2011, 10:07:08 PM

Quote from: Cindy42 on February 11, 2011, 09:47:44 PM
are elves of some sort allowed to dress as scimply as they want?

Would be nice to define what "some sort" of elf you're talking about... though I suspect most proper 'nakki elves would still follow the fashion as anyone else, if simply to blend in. That's a good point though. I don't see other races sticking to the traditional 'nakki attire unless it was required or for other beneficial reasons of their own. They might get ridiculed/discriminated even more than a human would if they didn't, however...

I would think that -c-elves- would hold some aspects, or adopt those aspect or attire indicative of their homes. Just because society treats them different, the highlord/ Muk -Utep, still offers them a place of relative safefty from the harsh world beyond, and his Laws serve them as well. So why would they not have an adoration towards clothing styles that scream - I belong here-.

aww.

but i wanna dress like a slut!

i would have assumed that nak allows for a sort of, Spartacus-style air about it, but, eh, i guess not. thankfully i saw this first before i did something awful.

Quote from: Barzalene on February 11, 2011, 12:48:45 PM
I also wish the shop selections better reflected the fashion guidelines.

Ditto.

I also wish there were more commoner-level clothing shops, period. There's tribal shit, frilly silky jewely shit, filthy 'Rinth shit, and not nearly as much simple, comfortable peasant wear as I would like.

I would dress 90% of my characters in drab but sturdy leather, sandcloth, and linen if it didn't mean wearing the same items over and over again.

Quote from: Spice Spice Baby on February 11, 2011, 11:05:11 PM

Quote from: Barzalene on February 11, 2011, 12:48:45 PM
I also wish the shop selections better reflected the fashion guidelines.

Ditto.

I also wish there were more commoner-level clothing shops, period. There's tribal shit, frilly silky jewely shit, filthy 'Rinth shit, and not nearly as much simple, comfortable peasant wear as I would like.

I would dress 90% of my characters in drab but sturdy leather, sandcloth, and linen if it didn't mean wearing the same items over and over again.

There are, you just have to look around a bit more.

Quote from: Lizzie on February 11, 2011, 06:53:17 PM
...unless you're a Fale, in which case it is expected you will show up in the most scandalous attire you can find, intentionally to be scandalous. Or a Kadian, because you own the store and you'll wear whatever you damned well please (assuming your character has the personality that can get away with that excuse).

This is incorrect.  

As a Fale you can get away with it because you're a Fale, but it's still scandalous and out of the norm.

As a Kadian, you are at the pinnacle of fashion and you should be setting an example of the fashion of the area you're working in, or you should expect to get looks, or be ridiculed.

Quote from: Spice Spice Baby on February 11, 2011, 11:05:11 PM

Quote from: Barzalene on February 11, 2011, 12:48:45 PM
I also wish the shop selections better reflected the fashion guidelines.

Ditto.

I also wish there were more commoner-level clothing shops, period. There's tribal shit, frilly silky jewely shit, filthy 'Rinth shit, and not nearly as much simple, comfortable peasant wear as I would like.

I would dress 90% of my characters in drab but sturdy leather, sandcloth, and linen if it didn't mean wearing the same items over and over again.

Part of the reason why there is so much in the Kadian shops that don't better reflect fashion guidelines is because PCs craft clothing that doesn't meet those guidelines, and sell them to Kadian shops.  Quite often, in fact.

Quote from: Cindy42 on February 11, 2011, 11:00:49 PM
i would have assumed that nak allows for a sort of, Spartacus-style air about it, but, eh, i guess not. thankfully i saw this first before i did something awful.

This is one of those reasons why it's important to read and familiarize yourself with the documentation.

Quote from: Niamh on February 11, 2011, 11:37:08 PM

Quote from: Spice Spice Baby on February 11, 2011, 11:05:11 PM

Quote from: Barzalene on February 11, 2011, 12:48:45 PM
I also wish the shop selections better reflected the fashion guidelines.

Ditto.

I also wish there were more commoner-level clothing shops, period. There's tribal shit, frilly silky jewely shit, filthy 'Rinth shit, and not nearly as much simple, comfortable peasant wear as I would like.

I would dress 90% of my characters in drab but sturdy leather, sandcloth, and linen if it didn't mean wearing the same items over and over again.

Part of the reason why there is so much in the Kadian shops that don't better reflect fashion guidelines is because PCs craft clothing that doesn't meet those guidelines, and sell them to Kadian shops.  Quite often, in fact.

To clarify, I didn't actually mean the Kadian shops, since they're gonna be geared more toward fancier stuff than the average commoner could afford anyhow.

I meant more the independent merchants in the Allanaki and Tuluki bazaars. There's only a couple in each city that I can think of that sell "normal" commoner clothing that isn't armour.

Basically, I just wish there was a broader spectrum of apparel between low-end Kadius and filthy 'Rinth clothes, since it seems to me that most commoners wouldn't wear Kadian clothing to work in. Stuff more like the ubiquitous PC-craftable Red Storm Sancloth Set.

Hope that makes more sense.

Quote from: Spice Spice Baby on February 12, 2011, 12:16:54 AM

... Basically, I just wish there was a broader spectrum of apparel between low-end Kadius and filthy 'Rinth clothes, since it seems to me that most commoners wouldn't wear Kadian clothing to work in. Stuff more like the ubiquitous PC-craftable Red Storm Sancloth Set.

Hope that makes more sense.

While I agree somewhat, I still think lower-end Kadian shops would still dominate the market in commoner wear. Any really successful independent clothing shops would likely get pushed out of the market or just bought by Kadius. Kadius is like the modern day equivalent of the brand name clothes, while the independent places would be like TJ-Max or Walmart.

I could see the bottom crust of citizens wearing drab, non-stylish clothing, but most commoners would still seek to buy Kadian products in a society where image could be everything...

It is rather unfortunate the Kadian shops end up with a lot of the simple craftable bits of clothing after a while. Perhaps make it so only Kadian crafters can sell to the shop, and independent crafters would have to rely on independent shops to trade with? That would seem more realistic, ideally. That way what gets sold to the commoners can be monitored by Kadians, and it'll be even more important for aspiring crafters to want to join the House as employees.

Kadius in Allanak buys things -into- their "commoner stuff" shop, that Kadius would be criticized by the culture-mongers for selling in their "commoner stuff" shop. That tells me there are a couple of possible things going on:

Possibility #1: Kadius is exempt from the culture-mongers, because if they weren't, someone would have ordered them to stop buying and selling those inappropriate things in their commoner stuff shop, and the seniors would have instructed the NPC merchants to stop buying and selling those inappropriate things.

Possibility #2: It is completely an OOC thing that the shops buy and sell all these things, and unfortunately, new players or players who are new to Allanak, will see an OOC example set, that is completely contrary to the documentation.

My suggestion: have the Kadian merchant NPCs stop buying and selling things that are inappropriate. OR, change the docs to reflect that since they are Kadians, the don't really have to give a damn what the general consensus says about what is inappropriate. OR, start paying out half of what they're currently paying, for styles not acceptable in commoner allanak fashion, and charge double what they're currently charging.

Example (can't recall an exact item but this is a hypothetical): a pair of red and white silk sleeves. Obviously northern design, intended for wealthier, more influential tuluk commoners or nobles. You sell it in the "commoner stuff" shop for 300 sids, it sells for 1200 sids. Except now, because it is inappropriate, and the NPC merchant has been criticized for daring to even have it in his shop, he will only pay you 150 sids to buy it from you. And if you wanted to buy it from him, he'd offer it for 2400 sids.

I agree with Lizzie up until the doubling the end amount. They are still in it to make money. Seems like they are pricing themselves out of every market that way.

I really liked the idea that Kadius stops buying from independent stitchers.

QuotePossibility #2: It is completely an OOC thing that the shops buy and sell all these things, and unfortunately, new players or players who are new to Allanak, will see an OOC example set, that is completely contrary to the documentation.

This is why the shops buy what they buy.  There is code that specifies what types of objects an NPC merchant buys (clothing, armor, weapons, for example), but there is nothing to distinguish between northern and southern styles.  It's a possibility that we may be able to work out some kind of change in code to determine further subcategories and whether or not the merchant will purchase them, but that is not a guarantee.  Until then, we rely on the playerbase to roleplay responsibly and within documentation.

Quote from: Niamh on February 13, 2011, 08:43:12 AM

QuotePossibility #2: It is completely an OOC thing that the shops buy and sell all these things, and unfortunately, new players or players who are new to Allanak, will see an OOC example set, that is completely contrary to the documentation.

This is why the shops buy what they buy.  There is code that specifies what types of objects an NPC merchant buys (clothing, armor, weapons, for example), but there is nothing to distinguish between northern and southern styles.  It's a possibility that we may be able to work out some kind of change in code to determine further subcategories and whether or not the merchant will purchase them, but that is not a guarantee.  Until then, we rely on the playerbase to roleplay responsibly and within documentation.

Would it be possible then to allow only clanned GMH employees to sell to GMH shops? That way what's sold by the shops could be monitored more closely. Since there are independent shops that buy as well, non-employees can sell there, and it would make being a GMH employee more valuable (more competition to join one) for the playerbase.

I recently saw someone in authority berate a dirty commoner for wearing clashing clothes. It was awesome.
Kudos.

Please tell me that when you say clashing, you do not refer to color coordination!

The dainty, foppish Fale exclaims, before fainting "White after Luirsfest?! My word!"

Quote from: Niamh on February 13, 2011, 08:43:12 AM

QuotePossibility #2: It is completely an OOC thing that the shops buy and sell all these things, and unfortunately, new players or players who are new to Allanak, will see an OOC example set, that is completely contrary to the documentation.

This is why the shops buy what they buy.  There is code that specifies what types of objects an NPC merchant buys (clothing, armor, weapons, for example), but there is nothing to distinguish between northern and southern styles.  It's a possibility that we may be able to work out some kind of change in code to determine further subcategories and whether or not the merchant will purchase them, but that is not a guarantee.  Until then, we rely on the playerbase to roleplay responsibly and within documentation.

Thanks Niamh for detailing your answer. Unfortunately, the playerbase isn't going to stop selling strapless polkadotted silk gowns for 400 sids each to the "commoner" shop, because that NPC is willing to actually pay 400 sids for it and that's probably the only way the PC is covering the cost of lengths of silk to make things that allow him to eat. Granted, if he sells a few of them, he'll be renting one of those luxury apartments in no time. Point being though, you can't really blame someone for selling something to an NPC who's willing to buy. If he's not supposed to be sellling it there, then there should at least be some kind of echo of disapproval so the *player* of the PC knows that it's inappropriate. New players don't know. How can they, when it's probably the first time they've even played in Allanak, let alone sold something to a Nakki shop.

I'd love to see things flagged correctly - and ALL items flagged, even if it gets a "generic" flag that says simplye "generic" so that the NPCs know that anyone can buy or sell them, anywhere. And then the NPCs toggled to reject things that their local extortionist/law enforcement would fine them for daring to sell.

I've seen northern and southern flags on things through the value command.
Could be a lot of work to add them to all the other appropriate/inappropriate things though and then code shopkeepers to give a feck.

If the style affected the price in the same way as materials (e.g. - wood vs obsidian), then I think we'd see players driven by economic forces to produce the locally fashionable styles. However, we might also see clueless noobs buying the unfashionable styles because they're cheaper, and they don't know any better. Thus, I think the solution is two-fold:

1) Players need to be fashion conscious and insult/compliment each other accordingly.

2) Fashionable clothes should be expensive relative to unfashionable clothes of otherwise equal construction.

QuoteNew players don't know. How can they, when it's probably the first time they've even played in Allanak, let alone sold something to a Nakki shop.

So rather than sit back and watch them make newbie mistakes, more experienced players can very easily give them IC guidance, and show them the ropes in a constructive way.

I am simply going to have to go along with Niamh on this one, along with the now old GDB adage "Be the change". If you are playing a noble or templar, get huffy about the matter, if you are playing a commoner, make fun of or mug the silk wearing elf/commoner etc. This is something where it actually works.

Quote from: Niamh on February 14, 2011, 08:41:19 AM

QuoteNew players don't know. How can they, when it's probably the first time they've even played in Allanak, let alone sold something to a Nakki shop.

So rather than sit back and watch them make newbie mistakes, more experienced players can very easily give them IC guidance, and show them the ropes in a constructive way.

I just want to add that it is also the new players' responsibility to read up on the documentation.  The documentation is there to help, after all.

The documentation doesn't tell them that when they successfully "craft silk into gown" it'll be a northern_make gown, that they should not try to sell to the southern Kadian shop.  There is no way of knowing that "craft silk into gown" is going to make something with a mdesc implying that it is totally inappropriate for your chosen shopkeeper, or even customer, until AFTER you have already made it. They only know that after they've successfully made it. And by then, they might have spent a couple hundred sids to discover that.

Also, veterans cannot, and should not, be expected to actually be there every time a new player is attempting to try and sell something to a shop, JUST so they can step in and ICly tell them it's a bad idea. New players and even new crafters have no way of knowing what is on that "craft silk" list, until it's already been made. They might not even realize that "analyze gown" will give them a "make-flag" that they can check, and some items are often sold to nobles in Allanak - and even specifically requested by Allanaki nobles. There is more precidence of people NOT following the documentation, than there is of people following it, and the shop code and make-flags support the exception rather than the rule.

I'm saying, that until either the shop-code or make-flag code is implemented game-wide, "be the change" is a pretty empty phrase.

Implementing some kind of northern versus southern fashion code sounds like a poor use of development time.  Read the documentation.  Buy what works.  It doesn't matter if people sell junk to the southern/northern shops, just assume those goods are shipped to the appropriate city whenever the shop's inventory resets.  The shops buy stuff for such a small fraction of what they sell it for, shipping costs must be neglible versus their profits.

For what it's worth and to help derail where I can I have to agree with Lizzie and here is why:

We, the players, can guess and assume what is correct and proper based off our interpretation of the game documentation, other players actions and general world 'feel'.  We cannot know until an Immortal tells us specifically.  For example:

You can make a polkadotted silk gown.  It's worth 400 sid to the shop.  You've seen them for sale there before (other pcs selling?).  The store sells them and is offering you sid for the one you offer.  From where I am standing there is no reason NOT to make them.  It is the players responsibility to play realistically.  If an npc hits you, you know it wants to kill/hurt you and you react accordingly.  If an npc is offering you coin for an item you can assume that item is in demand in that area AND that the npc thinks it is worth the cost.

NPCs are dumb, stupid animals though.  It's the players responsibility not to abuse this.  You can do that by making a variety of different items and not JUST the polkadotted silk gown or by spacing out the sale of said gowns to represent the time it takes the npc to sell the last one.  Assumptions can also be made to go the other way:  That npc is representative of many shop keepers around the city.  Him buying ten of my gowns is really me just selling to ten different merchants, right?

If the sale of an item to a specific shopkeeper is found to be unrealistic the npc should be fixed to not buy it.  Period.  If it's not something the PC should be selling some sort of coded echo needs to be included.  If none of these are good solutions, a note from an immortal explaining the problem should be sent.  Not just a "We need you to act responsibly" but some sort of concrete guidelines as to what about that play wasn't realistic and what IS expected.  Otherwise it's all interpretation and assumptions which leads to trouble :-(

Wearing said items/clothing can be handled IG through IC consequences.

Back on topic (kinda):  People make some good points about the "stock" stock of stores.  Some cycles include an overwhelming number of items that were made at an opposite branch (ie north as opposed to south or vice versa) and this doesn't help.  My suggestion is that Salarr/Kadius/Kurac sell only locally produced items from their stores ie Southern Salarr stuff in the south.  Northern Salarr stuff in the north.  They should also refuse to buy any House Salarr flagged items from any non-salarr person.  Why would salarr pay for something they make?  If they would, let a PC handle it.  Same for Kurac/Kadius.

Well, we could take the difficult route and make northern crafts and southern crafts a different skill for these sorts of things, e.g. Clothing, leather working, instruments

Quote from: Sam on February 14, 2011, 07:48:21 PM
Well, we could take the difficult route and make northern crafts and southern crafts a different skill for these sorts of things, e.g. Clothing, leather working, instruments

I would have had that on my "to-do" list when it first became evident that there would even be a need, use, and available code for "make-flags" were I on staff at the time all of this was implemented. They're a pretty neat part of the game code, and they're underused and undersupported. There's a lot that can be done with them than already is.

Fantastic workload/limiting factor proposal for something little payoff, and/or something players can already enforce.

Are we going to come up with code moguls to enforce fighting styles as well?  Racism? Food availability?

The problem I see though is that if even a portion of the player-base don't follow the fashion, everyone else who does is playing a mini-game separate from the rest. I guess it's a similar situation as if only a few people followed the documented racism. It not only detracts from the original intent of the documents (being enforced role play in the fantasy setting) but potentially ruins the immersion of the players who -are- following the documents accurately.

Still, I guess the question remains if it's worth the added burden on players to stick to documentation, or bend it a little for playability sake.

What I see so far are two options:
1) over-haul of the code to have NPC retailers differentiate between nakki and tuluki fashions in clothing
2) prevent non-House PCs from selling to House shops, trusting instead on staff-sponsored (and staff-monitored) PCs to regulate the stock of the GMH shops

I don't think there's been a third option mentioned yet (besides not do anything and let players regulate by themselves as it's always been). However, it's apparent players self-regulating won't work all the time considering the lapses in trends IG now and then.

[added]

Quote from: ArmaddictAre we going to come up with code moguls to enforce fighting styles as well?  Racism? Food availability?

So where do we draw the line between playability and enforcing the documentation?

Quote from: Semper on February 14, 2011, 09:20:57 PM
The problem I see though is that if even a portion of the player-base don't follow the fashion, everyone else who does is playing a mini-game separate from the rest. I guess it's a similar situation as if only a few people followed the documented racism. It not only detracts from the original intent of the documents (being enforced role play in the fantasy setting) but potentially ruins the immersion of the players who -are- following the documents accurately.

Still, I guess the question remains if it's worth the added burden on players to stick to documentation, or bend it a little for playability sake.

What I see so far are two options:
1) over-haul of the code to have NPC retailers differentiate between nakki and tuluki fashions in clothing
2) prevent non-House PCs from selling to House shops, trusting instead on staff-sponsored (and staff-monitored) PCs to regulate the stock of the GMH shops

I don't think there's been a third option mentioned yet (besides not do anything and let players regulate by themselves as it's always been). However, it's apparent players self-regulating won't work all the time considering the lapses in trends IG now and then.

[added]

Quote from: ArmaddictAre we going to come up with code moguls to enforce fighting styles as well?  Racism? Food availability?

So where do we draw the line between playability and enforcing the documentation?

Another option would be to simply change the docs to reflect the segue to new trends in fashion across the known, that provides more flexibility of styles between commoners and nobility, north and south. In other words, tell us "you know all this stuff that most people (except the few who actually wanted to "be the change") have been ignoring for the past four RL years? Well it's okay to ignore it now, because its obsolescence is now official."

If you are not supposed to sell to shops, let's just get rid of haggle and merchant class pretty much. Or you can only be merchant for a house is what everyone thinks is responsible? If you only sell to players you will likely be poor merchant. So you learned a skill, secured supplies and actually did something but getting rewarded for that is bad. Why even have the bazaar in 'nak then? Seems a big waste of time if trading is discouraged and we not supposed to be making deals and haggling or whatever, sort of ruins the atmosphere in my mind. The GMH do not want to buy something then turn around and sell it for 5 times the price? Bah. If a particular shop is a problem I say a simple fix is to make is a save room. To me that would solve the problem of selling so many pieces of silk. Sure ..every PC in the game together has sold five, but until one of those five is sold that represents the lack of demand for such a high priced item.

There is a lot of non-House clothing sellers in Allanak.

I think I can count on one hand, give or take,  the number of clothing merchants in Allanak, and most of them sell much of the same thing or things beyond the common person.

It's really not as bad to complicate things so much. You can still have PCs make money selling to merchant shops, sure. But I think it's also up to the buyers to have discretion knowing what their social class is allowed to wear, too.

I don't think the shops themselves would care who they sell their outfits to. The Templars probably wouldn't bother them about it either, since a bunch of idiot commoners walking around in silks are good marks for 'donations' and the Templarate likely have a lot of other ties and dealings with House Kadius.

As for PC sellers selling 'inappropiate' goods, it seems a bit complex a fix for something kind of trivial, so I'd go with the explaination that they ship stuff between cities, buy to choke out the market their competitors or maybe even that they buy in the hopes of some Fale or fancy Templar coming along and buying up their weird outfits.

Of course, players would do best to focus on selling south-style stuff in the south, and I'll try to do so with any of my future crafters in said city.

I should probably confess that part of my dissatisfaction with the shops is selfish. In 2004 I'd written up a great many clothes that don't seem to be in game any more. Or maybe they are and I don't see them, or you all just don't wear them (fuckers!) and it makes me all sulky!

But also true is that those who work with cloth need to make a living, and some are making that living by selling to npcs. Dying of starvation or to beetles while chopping sid might be an alternative, but I don't think it's a good one.

One solution would be to have all crafted clothing revisited. I imagine that if the staff thought that was the best use of their time they'd have done this already. I'm certainly not sure it would be what I'd like them to be doing. (After all, if they're doing that they're not paying attention to me, and I need a lot of attention.)

So, the answer, like so many, is probably gray (or grey for you people who- well you know who you are.) For instance we can make wise clothing choices. Steer newbies. And if you come across anything really egregious in crafted clothing, you could, if you were feeling energetic, write up some kind of replacement, and send the staff a suggestion to remove the bad clothing and substitute something better suited to the game world. This won't address the north south issue, but it would certainly address the really odd unsuitable issue.

P.S. while I'm throwing my little "artistic tantrum ... where's my darn furniture? Huh? Huh?

The likely reason your designs aren't seen around is because no one knows how to make them.  There are probably hundreds of recipes that have been lost because no one else figured out how to make them.  Or perhaps, the cost to make the recipe is greater than the price they can sell them for at the shops, so they don't get sold to the shops and no one sees them.

I think the one thing that I always noticed, historically, is that not everything translates perfectly from the documentation. Not everyone is xenophobic, not everyone is greedy and mistrustful, and not everyone fights in sandcloth and leather in Allanak. I like it like that.

The reason I like that is because we do a great job of being consistent in theme. At the end of the day, though, the player is usually going to want to dress their PCs up in stuff they think is cool. If cool is in line with the documentation, great. If it isn't, it won't break the bank.

I agree with the idea that the playerbase should control for deviation a little bit more. That may or may not be helped by more availability of appropriate clothing in stores-- more abas, djellabahs, and robes down south, more kilts, jerkins, vests, loose blousy stuff up north. It would definitely be helped IG by snooty comments and looking down one's nose at certain things.

This isn't the first time this topic has come up. I remember, way back, when Barzalene and others elaborated on the clothing culture, and made up a lot of good items. That was a step in the right direction. I'm starting to notice more of a range of appropriate stuff sold in stores now, actually.

Maybe a bit of a derail regarding "read the docs" - Many of these documentation details are retconned into the game. Circa-2000 I don't recall regional fighting styles, 'nakies being all covered up, Tuluki tattoes (or subtlety, to the degree it is emphasized now), and so on. Someone writes some doc up (for better or for worse) and some of these docs are actually adhered to strictly in-game while others not so much (in terms of actual player base behavior/observance).

Quote from: smcdonald on February 15, 2011, 08:54:18 AM
The likely reason your designs aren't seen around is because no one knows how to make them.  There are probably hundreds of recipes that have been lost because no one else figured out how to make them.  Or perhaps, the cost to make the recipe is greater than the price they can sell them for at the shops, so they don't get sold to the shops and no one sees them.

God, yes. I always tried like 5 billion combinations with my crafter! I never got much done that way.

I'm sad to admit, I never made any crafting recipes, just the stuff that ended up in shops.

I don't understand why Kadius buys things other people make. You are Kadius. You make the best things, and you set fashion. Yet you are paying random, untrained merchants (by that I mean not Kadius-trained) for their work. You are selling those things in your shop. Why would someone go to a Kadian shop at all if the prices are higher and they don't have a guarantee that it is of Kadius make? I realize that PCs need places to sell to, but I have never understood why Kadius buys things. I think that would be the role of someone else, not the premier maker of luxury goods.

It also bothers me that you can't tell an item is Kadian-make or not unless you're holding it in your inventory, or unless it is completely unique to Kadius/has a kadius emblem on it. Why would anyone buy Kadian if nobody can tell the fine style when they are wearing it? You should hire a secret tailor and claim that it was Kadian-made and just save the coin. I think that it would make sense for a merchant to be able to tell if a garment was of Kadian make or not when someone was wearing it. If the stitch work or quality is that much better, it should be able to be told. There seems to be little point otherwise. Yes, you could argue that even if it looks the exact same Kadius has better prestige and that is where the value comes from, but again, it would be much more cost effective to simply lie about it.

/rant

I think we're getting into this wayyyy too much. People have to make money somehow in game. Kadius has a monopoly, nearly, on all high fashion - why wouldn't they want independents to come to them, so they could sell their, well, 'common' crap? They're -still- going to make money off of it.

Anyway, it's getting way too in depth with the whole semantics and how the game should work. Code can only do so much, you have to sort of be understanding with it, that it can't cover the bases we as players should be acknowledging.

Quote from: boog on February 16, 2011, 10:43:40 AM
I think we're getting into this wayyyy too much.

Just because you don't care about documentation being enforced doesn't mean anyone's taking the subject too far.

I agree that the make flags (northern, southern, kadius, etc) would be excellent to use to get certain npcs to not buy or buy less of certain things where (in)appropriate.
Some gear that's got certain flags works like this already (though I don't know if I can say which it is exactly on the GDB), where the npc vendor offers you shit for it and then sells it for shit compared to the same thing made by anyone else.
However, I also agree that that would take a very large amount of work to re-flag every applicable item, and that time would better be spent flagging things for arm2.

An alternative, and possibly easier, fix might be to lower the amount the npcs buy things for - no one's going to stop spam crafting (whether they admit to it or not).
But that's still like putting a bandaid on a degloving accident, and is still quite a bit of work.

I think only one of my commoner pcs ever wore silk, and it was the silk trim/lining in a couple of pieces, and they only wore them for special events that required better dress because of their rank. As someone said, silk-trimmed pieces are really under-used.

Until we have a coded fix, it's up to us - berrate/kill people dressed incorrectly in Allanak, and... uh... Tease/kill people in Tuluk... If someone wants, they can make a PC that does nothing but monitor the clothing shops and polices people buying and selling, but I'm going to stick with assuming people that show more skin than my pc are whores and dealing with inappropriate silk however I can.  The best thing we can do is try to encourage the proper themes and outlooks in others, either through talking to "new" players/pcs, or through force (if you possess authority to do so).

I don't believe that Boog said she doesn't care about the documentation at all. I think she said that we need to balance what the code does/can do/ should do with what we can do for ourselves. At least that's how I read it.

I agree with Barzalene's interpretation. Honestly, why is it a big deal if Kadius resells what they can buy at a juicy markup?  What do they care?  They are the premier (and only) fashion and finery house in the Known World.  They do global trade, and though they are conscious of their local markets, they are at their own leisure to sell what they wish, distasteful or not.

As is the case with many monopolies, they have the power to survive even if people don't like aspects of their product.  If people don't like what Kadius slings, well, too bad.  There is nowhere else to go.

On an OOC level, where else are PCs going to sell things?  Unless someone's willing to write up some new NPCs and totally revamp the clothing inventory at hand, this is not a huge issue and I would rather they buy what they can.  The Playerbase can deal with the ramifications by adjusting its behavior-- or not.  The game will still exist next week.

It's easy to imagine the Kadius thing as one of their standard procedures for maintaining control of the market. Eliminating or directly hiring every independent clothes-maker might be within their power, but why do that when you don't have to? Being a middle-man can be very lucrative, so as long as things pass between your hands, it's fine.

As for Kadius buying clothes that don't match the regional fashion, there's no reason to think in such a relatively developed economy you wouldn't be able to find strange, out-of-fashion pieces in certain places. Remember that the shop system is abstracted; everything on the list is not necessarily in open display. I imagine the crappier, wrong-fashion pieces that you find in the Kadius shop, for example, are hidden away in a trunk behind the counter. You can put a lot of color into the shops in your roleplaying well beyond list, offer, barter, and with a little imagination you can explain away certain inevitable discrepancies.

You may find strange unknown clothing, but you wouldn't find any of it in abundance like you do now. Personally, I think Kadius wouldn't buy silk clothing from commoners. Why would they buy half assed clothing that was soiled by the very hands that made it, when they own that market? I think it would be fine if Kadius bought linen, sandcloth, and cotton from commoners, but not silk.

If you couldn't sell silk to Kadius, I would be satiated.

I disagree. If they didn't want to accept silk from certain demographics, then they already wouldn't.

Kadians are still commoners themselves.

Also, your average common tailor probably can't afford to work with silk anyway. If someone shows up with a silk robe or whatever, there's a fair chance they have some idea what they're doing.

I had the idea that it was -really- easy to make coins as a good tailor anyway, no matter where you are. Would it hurt so much if Kadius didn't buy from independents? I find it kind of difficult to grasp how an independent tailor should be able to make a living working alone... maybe with another group perhaps, but not alone and with only the tailor skill.

[added] I'll rephrase that. There's plenty of subguilds that can make a whole lot of coins by itself, so that's not as good of an argument as I first thought. Still, it's kind of ridiculous how a red storm tailor can be able to sell in both Allanak and Tuluk with clothing they make that's apparently in fashion enough for shop merchants to buy... it should be a tough market to break into, and allowing only House employees to sell to House shops should help create an accurate sense of a more cut-throat market.

Off tangent somewhat, allowing independent crafters to sell to House-owned shops also lessens the importance of House crafters. As a House employee, basically the only benefit you get is regular pay (which is far less than what an independent crafter can make in the same amount of time) in exchange for access to free materials to craft with. Once you've learned enough in your skill to be competent/master, and have connections with PCs enough to get your own material, there's no real reason to stay within a House when you can make far more coins (and enter a more diverse market without House limitations on what you can buy/sell) when independent. Thus, you get a lot of PCs who want to join merchant houses for a year or two, but there's no long-term value in staying within a House (and so greater need to recruit OOCly for clan leaders since anyone with decent experience leave before long).

Quote from: boog on February 16, 2011, 10:43:40 AM
People have to make money somehow in game. Kadius has a monopoly, nearly, on all high fashion - why wouldn't they want independents to come to them, so they could sell their, well, 'common' crap? They're -still- going to make money off of it.

Quote from: Socko on February 16, 2011, 01:41:01 PM
Honestly, why is it a big deal if Kadius resells what they can buy at a juicy markup?  What do they care?  They are the premier (and only) fashion and finery house in the Known World.  They do global trade, and though they are conscious of their local markets, they are at their own leisure to sell what they wish, distasteful or not.

As is the case with many monopolies, they have the power to survive even if people don't like aspects of their product.  If people don't like what Kadius slings, well, too bad.  There is nowhere else to go.

My point is that why would anyone buy Kadius if they don't know it's Kadian? What's the point of paying all that extra price for the best luxary items if it's probably just made by some random grebber anyway? It's tantamount to Kadius admitting that they aren't the best and that anything goes. It becomes, as I said, way more effective to just hire your own tailor.

QuoteOn an OOC level, where else are PCs going to sell things?  Unless someone's willing to write up some new NPCs and totally revamp the clothing inventory at hand, this is not a huge issue and I would rather they buy what they can.  The Playerbase can deal with the ramifications by adjusting its behavior-- or not.  The game will still exist next week.

Quote from: boog on February 16, 2011, 10:43:40 AM
I think we're getting into this wayyyy too much. People have to make money somehow in game.

I agree, people do have to make money in game. However, I think this could be done through a different NPC. I don't think that the way Kadius works makes a ton of sense right now. However... I also agree that putting in the effort to fix it might not be worth it. Yes, it would be really nice, but I think there are probably other things coders can work on. That doesn't mean that I won't continue to discuss the issue however.

I do think that it would be neat to see this in Arm 2, if it's easier to work it in to that. By "this" I mean style flags of some sort for where it would be sold.

This is turning more into a Kadius vs. independent thread, and it's really an issue about Allanak fashion as a whole. As for the shopkeeper, he is "only" a shopkeeper. He is not the elite of the House, who would sit down with nobility and templars and aids and seniors of other merchant houses, to learn the tastes and needs of the customers, and provide one-on-one customer service in the privacy of their own home or the Kadian estate offices.

The shopkeeper sells to whoever has the sids to buy, and buys from whoever has the appropriate goods to sell. The issue, is with the fact that the shopkeeper doesn't seem to know what constitutes appropriate. It doesn't matter that ICly, things SHOULD be this or that way or the other way. The facts are:

If Lord Templar Doodah, the Templar just out of chargen 2 RL weeks ago, wants to give Kadius shit about anything, all he has to do is walk into one of those shops. And then contact the PC agent over the Way, and demand that she attend him at the shop. At which point he will direct her attention to the scathingly scandalously northern, inappropriate garment that HER HOUSE is selling, that HER HOUSE has created, and order her to remove it immediately from the store or be fined for daring to attempt to corrupt the fine southern citizens of His Darkness.

The problem, is that the PC has NO control over who buys or sells, or even over what gets loaded up on the shopkeeper's list. Some of those items that the NPC *comes with* are northern_Kadius. The House should know better than to be *intentionally* selling northern fashions in Allanak. These aren't even things that PCs are bringing to the shopkeeper to buy, and then turning around and reselling them. They're things that get loaded up when there are color-changes.

THEN you have to deal with the FACT that newer players may or may not have read every single doc, or even know that some of these docs exist to read - but they DO know what they see. And they see that these styles ARE sold in Allanak. And so they follow what they believe to be an appropriate trend. If it were inappropriate, surely Kadius, the premier fashion house of the Known world, would not be putting it on display, would they? They might very well slip it to the tradesman up the street. They might buy it for half of what they normally might..and sell it for twice what they normally might. But they'd sell it to some other trader with a little bribe to ensure the other trader keeps his yap shut about where he got it.

Because Kadius is politically neutral and we wouldn't want the southern templarate to get the impression that Kadius doesn't give a rat's ass about what the southern templarate thinks about Kadian commerce.

That's my contention. I really don't think certain things should be purchased or sold by Kadius in the South. HOWEVER - since they are being sold anyway, then there should be a financial consequence to doing so. If Kadius sells a 100-sid garment that's of a northern fashion in Nak, they should be charged a 50-sid tax to do so. And so now, what they paid 100 sids for, now costs 150 sids to sell. And they'd have to sell for 220 sids just to maintain their profit margin. Silk is already taxed up the yinyang, however customers are benefiting in profits by selling silks to Kadius. These independent silk-sellers are not paying the tax that the shopkeeper is paying. They should. It should be part of the sales transaction. Instead of that 400-sid dress getting 400 sids to the sub-guild tailor rinthi assassin, he should only be getting 200 sids. And the shopkeeper should be turning it around and selling it to the public for 1000 sids. Not because Kadius wants to..

But because the taxes imposed by the Templarate require that they do so, for the privilege of northern fashions sold in their southern shops being tolerated.

I don't think a templar would be acting appropriately if they did that. File a player complaint.

Quote from: Taven on February 17, 2011, 01:33:03 AM


I agree, people do have to make money in game. However, I think this could be done through a different NPC. I don't think that the way Kadius works makes a ton of sense right now. However... I also agree that putting in the effort to fix it might not be worth it. Yes, it would be really nice, but I think there are probably other things coders can work on. That doesn't mean that I won't continue to discuss the issue however.

I think you have a point. You might want to just write up an npc and think where to put them and submit it to the staff. They might not use it, but they're probably more likely to incorporate that if it takes less of their time and resources.

Armageddon is a ROLEPLAY mud.  How about instead of focusing on the code and what it can and can't do in relation to Kadian shops, we focus on roleplaying the world as it should be according to the documentation?

Quote from: Niamh on February 17, 2011, 08:22:43 AM
Armageddon is a ROLEPLAY mud.  How about instead of focusing on the code and what it can and can't do in relation to Kadian shops, we focus on roleplaying the world as it should be according to the documentation?

Because this isn't a MUSH. It's a highly modified customized version of DIKU and in the world of muds, code trumps roleplay. If you present me with a code that says "THIS is how things actually ARE" then it doesn't matter what the docs say. The docs are incorrect and the code does not support it.
Either the code needs to work to support the roleplay, or the docs need to be adjusted to coincide with the fact of the code.

You can change the scripting on 1, 2, or 3 shopkeepers, or you can insist that every player of this game know about the existence of the fashion docs, read them, and obey them. Or you can change the docs so that they match the code. I think the first option is the most efficient, and the most likely to actually have the desired result.

They sell shields in the south and people in the north can buy more than one weapon at a time.  You can go ahead and discard the documentation for fighting styles since the code allows you to ignore it.  Someone can feasibly make a trip from Allanak to Tuluk in 10 minutes, which corresponds to one in-game hour.  Hey, the code allows you to do it, so this is probably how Salarr, Kadius, and Kurac do things.  All of their caravans are that fast because the code allows one player to do that.  Elves can codedly ride animals, so why shouldn't they?  The documentation should reflect the code in this case.  My PC got really injured but it's okay because I can sleep it off in like 5 minutes and pretend nothing happened.  It's not my fault that the code allows me to do that, I'm just doing what it lets me do.  Why should I be held to any documentation or roleplay standards?  The code allows my desert elf to spend all of his time in the city; documentation be damned--if I can enter a city, I will stay there.

Using the argument "code trumps roleplay" is crap.  Code can be used to facilitate roleplay (fleeing, killing, etc.) but it can't trump roleplay or the documentation.  The code currently is limited in regards to what shops can and can't do and it has been this way for years.  That doesn't mean it won't change, but it does mean that we expect people to roleplay and adhere to the helpfully provided documentation.

Quote from: Nyr on February 17, 2011, 09:30:27 AM
They sell shields in the south and people in the north can buy more than one weapon at a time.  You can go ahead and discard the documentation for fighting styles since the code allows you to ignore it.  Someone can feasibly make a trip from Allanak to Tuluk in 10 minutes, which corresponds to one in-game hour.  Hey, the code allows you to do it, so this is probably how Salarr, Kadius, and Kurac do things.  All of their caravans are that fast because the code allows one player to do that.  Elves can codedly ride animals, so why shouldn't they?  The documentation should reflect the code in this case.  My PC got really injured but it's okay because I can sleep it off in like 5 minutes and pretend nothing happened.  It's not my fault that the code allows me to do that, I'm just doing what it lets me do.  Why should I be held to any documentation or roleplay standards?  The code allows my desert elf to spend all of his time in the city; documentation be damned--if I can enter a city, I will stay there.

Using the argument "code trumps roleplay" is crap.  Code can be used to facilitate roleplay (fleeing, killing, etc.) but it can't trump roleplay or the documentation.  The code currently is limited in regards to what shops can and can't do and it has been this way for years.  That doesn't mean it won't change, but it does mean that we expect people to roleplay and adhere to the helpfully provided documentation.

Okay.  I totally agree with what you're saying.  But how do we get there?  I think the issue is that we see some areas where character behavior is found lacking-- let's say that some players are having their Allanaki characters wield swords with shields and heavy armor, commoners are wearing revealing silk clothing in professional positions that would clearly make their employers look bad.  To make it even worse, some are selling high-end silken jackets and cloaks to the lower end shops.  I still think Kadius wouldn't care that much, but that doesn't excuse this kind of thing from the spotlight.

I think it's just going to take a conscious effort on the part of the playerbase and staff to enforce.  Not to say we can't do it, but we have to decide on doing it in the first place.  And I think this thread is proof that many of us want to do just that.

Well, we get there by handling it ICly as best we can.  If you see some commoner wearing silks in the Gaj, roll your eyes and make fun of them, or do whatever it is your character would do when confronted by something that incongruous.  Or make fun of them behind their backs later, so that the players you are interacting with are reminded about how inappropriate that is.  Make some social stigma, and don't have your own commoners wear silks unless they have a darn good reason to.  Be the example for the newer players that don't realize that what they're doing is inappropriate.  When I think about some of the mistakes I made with my first couple characters, I cringe and wish someone HAD made it obvious that I was doing something wrong... instead of finding out about it well past the fact.

I always just dress for the occasion.  In the south, being covered up in order to block sun and sand seems... easy.

I think there is a problem with those dressing like morons, but I havent seen /most/ characters doing it.  Just do like we do to all people who do things 'wrong' (be an elf, cast magick, steal)... treat them differently.

*Banzai!  To the rescue of Lizzie*

I appreciate that we, the players, are ultimately responsible for roleplaying our individual characters based off the documentation.

That said we can only go as far as our OOC knowledge allows us to.  We cannot correctly mimic Allanaki fashion if we, the players, do not know what is "correct".  The documentation only gives very general ideas on what is acceptable and what is not and then it is not always reinforced by the npcs in the gameworld (Take a quick walk around Allanak and see how many npcs are wearing "Green".  Exactly).  This is further hindered by the point many have made:  the shops do not sell regionally appropriate clothing.

It was once announced that shop inventory changes were manually done by the immortals.  This may have changed.  Regardless, the ability to change shop inventory is there and in this case it -REALLY- should be used.  There is no good reason why the importing of foreign goods should be handled under the table and behind the scenes, especially when it comes at the cost of local goods being removed.  This is specifically aimed at Kadius with their plethora of northern made goods.  Granted, some things might need to be important based off of supplies, local of craftsmen etc, but the bread&butter inventory should be Allanaki fashion (or tuluki in tuluk etc).  If Kadius WANTS to sell northern fashions in the south the PC population suddenly has something to do.  Kadius can arrange a caravan, hire some guards and make a show of importing goods for their shops.  Having Allanaki obsidian studs show up after reboot in infinite quantity in Tuluk is just... bleh.  This would give pc merchants in houses something to do besides crafting unique puce-colored cumberbuns for rich nobles too.

to re-hash another point:  Crafters do not need lots of places to sell lewt.  The great merchant houses buying anything from unclanned pcs is just an unnecessary crutch that CAN be explained but IMHO doesn't make sense.  Merchant houses buying their own goods from unclanned pcs is just silly.  HOWEVER!!! Without the proper skillset, most PLAYERS will not know who made what.  This makes it nigh-impossible to know that you're actually selling Salarr shields to Salarr; Kadian jewelery to Kadius.  The npc merchants should just refuse to buy them or offer 1-5% of actual value.  Sure, this may eliminate some avenues to make money but who cares?  There are plenty of ways to earn rent/food/water that don't involve selling House X's merchandise back to House X.  It would also mean when the House PC's come to import goods from their other city they won't find their shop inundated with important goods brought by every tom, dick and harry independent who happened to make the trip first.

Oh, another bonus?  Maybe independents will have their incomes cut back if they cant unload to the big Houses.  You want to sell a lot to Kadius?  Get a job with Kadius.

Yes, you can only go as far as your OOC knowledge allows you to go.  You can correctly imitate Allanaki fashion (should you so choose, since we staff are not necessarily your fashion police) by perusing the documentation on it.  They are very general ideas of what is acceptable and not because it's fashion, and we expect players to be able to take some guidance from them rather than have it beaten into their heads.  The clothing documentation doesn't suggest that everyone wearing pale green in Allanak is unlucky, nor that everyone wearing blue is in mourning, after all, so why does it matter if a few NPCs have pale green on? Maybe they know it's unlucky and just don't care because it was cheaper that day.  Maybe they're wearing blue because they like the color.

The same shop inventory changes that were done manually are now done automatically.  As was the case then, if there's a problem, pointing out the stuff that continually reloads (but probably shouldn't) can be done by the request tool so that adjustments can be made.  However, a brief glance over Allanak's Kadian shops doesn't seem to show me anything way out of the ordinary in the way of "regionally appropriate clothing."  I didn't check over Tuluk because this thread isn't about Tuluki fashion, but the same goes for rotations and suggestions there.

As for crafters and selling, I feel like this has probably surfaced before, but people argue on both sides of the line all the time.  This week it's "independents make boatloads of money and shouldn't be so let's punish them."  A year or so ago it was "oh noes, apartment changes are going to totally wreck all independents!" (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,36512.msg478363.html#msg478363)  In fact, in the same thread, the same idea is refuted (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,36512.msg481661.html#msg481661) by another player--in the same thread it went from "oh noes" to "indies make boatloads of sid."  Independents making boatloads of coin (assuming it is done by crafting/selling) are doing nothing at all unless they're also working to become politically powerful.  The instant they do that, they become a target. (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,38508.msg525647.html#msg525647)  Even having a hoard of 'sid can make you vulnerable.

Now, realism.  Salarr has a monopoly on weapon and armor sales.  Sure, you can sell your own.  You can even sell them to Salarr.  Why is that a problem?  Salarr doesn't have to make all of the weapons and armor in the world, they just want to sell them.  The same goes for clothing/jewelry and Kadius.

Wait, Nyr. Are you saying that the color change still happens every IC month, automatically? Cause that is awesome!

Quote from: Barzalene on February 17, 2011, 03:37:59 PM
Wait, Nyr. Are you saying that the color change still happens every IC month, automatically? Cause that is awesome!

Yes.  From the script comments:

This script will automatically rotate shop inventory, sparing you the drudgery of
* rotating merchant NPCs, or the humiliation of your forgetfulness. Once set, it is
* fully automated and requires no more action. There is also an option to manually
* rotate the shop inventory.

As one that despised the drudgery and was frequently humiliated by my forgetfulness, I am eternally grateful to Olgaris.  It was around the same time we were testing out the burgeoning auto-pay system for clans, which is also in-use.

Quote from: Nyr on February 17, 2011, 09:30:27 AM
You can go ahead and discard the documentation for fighting styles since the code allows you to ignore it.

I always thought that "fighting styles" were more of a suggestion than a hard-and-fast rule.

Who cares whether a mercenary has decided to train using one blade or two, so long as he gets the job done.

Quote from: Nyr on February 17, 2011, 03:27:37 PM
Now, realism.  Salarr has a monopoly on weapon and armor sales.  Sure, you can sell your own.  You can even sell them to Salarr.  Why is that a problem?  Salarr doesn't have to make all of the weapons and armor in the world, they just want to sell them.  The same goes for clothing/jewelry and Kadius.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, since I don't think we'll end up agreeing, but here's one more shot at this.

Quote from: Taven on February 17, 2011, 01:33:03 AM

Quote from: boog on February 16, 2011, 10:43:40 AM
People have to make money somehow in game. Kadius has a monopoly, nearly, on all high fashion - why wouldn't they want independents to come to them, so they could sell their, well, 'common' crap? They're -still- going to make money off of it.

Quote from: Socko on February 16, 2011, 01:41:01 PM
Honestly, why is it a big deal if Kadius resells what they can buy at a juicy markup?  What do they care?  They are the premier (and only) fashion and finery house in the Known World.  They do global trade, and though they are conscious of their local markets, they are at their own leisure to sell what they wish, distasteful or not.

As is the case with many monopolies, they have the power to survive even if people don't like aspects of their product.  If people don't like what Kadius slings, well, too bad.  There is nowhere else to go.

My point is that why would anyone buy Kadius if they don't know it's Kadian? What's the point of paying all that extra price for the best luxary items if it's probably just made by some random grebber anyway? It's tantamount to Kadius admitting that they aren't the best and that anything goes. It becomes, as I said, way more effective to just hire your own tailor.

Quote from: Taven on February 16, 2011, 12:16:27 AM
You are Kadius. You make the best things, and you set fashion. Yet you are paying random, untrained merchants (by that I mean not Kadius-trained) for their work. You are selling those things in your shop. Why would someone go to a Kadian shop at all if the prices are higher and they don't have a guarantee that it is of Kadius make? I realize that PCs need places to sell to, but I have never understood why Kadius buys things. I think that would be the role of someone else, not the premier maker of luxury goods.

I think that with a merchant house, it's not just the monopoly that's implied. It's the quality. They are the best. If they weren't the best, why not hire someone else? Salarr and Kadius are expensive. They're expensive because they have the best quality, or so I have always thought. If you're with Tor, you want to have a Salarri sword, not just some random sword made by a grebber. They became monopolies because they made the best work (or arguably were the most backstabbing, but that's not necessarily relevant to this discussion).

Yes, Salarri, Kadian, and Kuraci goods are considered the premier crafters of goods in each of their fields.  I don't think that's in dispute. 

I also don't think it's worth cracking down on anyone selling crafted or used goods to any of these groups through the NPC shopkeepers, especially when it makes as much sense.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on February 17, 2011, 08:39:40 PM
I always thought that "fighting styles" were more of a suggestion than a hard-and-fast rule.

Who cares whether a mercenary has decided to train using one blade or two, so long as he gets the job done.

Just because I think this is important for this thread. (Still luv you Salt Merchant, please forgive me!)  I think fashion docs are probably viewed the same.   Plus, it depends on the PC -- Just as in real life there are different "rules" for different sets of people:  Joe Amos may pick on covering skin, but not as many of the other rules as say Shelly who is an up-and-coming Kadian employee or Templar Bob. 


As for indies selling items:  there tends to be two types of independents -- those who make boatloads and those who barely get by.  My guess is those who barely get by are those new to the game (or new to the role),  so we don't want to punish/make things even more difficult for them. 

As an indy, I rarely got by. Maybe it's because I didn't have spreadsheets full of info of which items sold the best for how much material you put into them.

In fact, the trend I noticed was that you made a very little margin of profit from how much the length of cloth cost to how much the merchants would buy it for - even with max barter.

Then again, I probably just suck.

It would be nice to see different prices offered to different social classes.

"You, an independent commoner, want silk?  Well, it's gonna cost you."

It would probably be a coding bear to implement and then balance.  So it would be an awesome thing to see in 2.Arm.

Plus, sumptuary laws... *drool*

Quote from: Morrolan on February 19, 2011, 11:47:19 AM
Plus, sumptuary laws... *drool*

I used to play a mud with this. I quit because it annoyed the hell out of me. Just sayin. Who are you to try and enforce it, either? Because there could very well be a lot of reasons to wear it. Not all of which would be told. Bastard noble? High ranking GMH? Banging lord templar hardnose? The list goes on, too.

As to Allanaki fashion: I don't see why the shops would want to NOT make money off of something just because it was made by someone else. If you have the skill to see who made what, then use it and tell them you don't want it if it's not 'Kadian Made'. The thing about these GMH's monopolies is... they're universal. They are everywhere. So yes, I can definitely see them hauling items from one place to another in a single trip every month or so. Just because it's not in fashion in Allanak doesn't mean it wouldn't be in a place where they could ship it.

Barsook: No, you're about right on there. There's a specific place I imagine a lot of people with tailors go and spam their way to greatness, but just because you don't doesn't mean you suck.  ;D I don't either and I'm kinda awesome.

Quote from: Anaiah on February 19, 2011, 12:59:55 PM

Quote from: Morrolan on February 19, 2011, 11:47:19 AM
Plus, sumptuary laws... *drool*

As to Allanaki fashion: I don't see why the shops would want to NOT make money off of something just because it was made by someone else. If you have the skill to see who made what, then use it and tell them you don't want it if it's not 'Kadian Made'. The thing about these GMH's monopolies is... they're universal. They are everywhere. So yes, I can definitely see them hauling items from one place to another in a single trip every month or so. Just because it's not in fashion in Allanak doesn't mean it wouldn't be in a place where they could ship it.

I agree with you, but to a degree. They aren't going to make money from items that noone is going to buy, i.e. northern fashions. They may have some in the back room, but they aren't going to buy it often and then only at a steal.

Quote from: Sam on February 21, 2011, 09:56:57 PM

Quote from: Anaiah on February 19, 2011, 12:59:55 PM

Quote from: Morrolan on February 19, 2011, 11:47:19 AM
Plus, sumptuary laws... *drool*

As to Allanaki fashion: I don't see why the shops would want to NOT make money off of something just because it was made by someone else. If you have the skill to see who made what, then use it and tell them you don't want it if it's not 'Kadian Made'. The thing about these GMH's monopolies is... they're universal. They are everywhere. So yes, I can definitely see them hauling items from one place to another in a single trip every month or so. Just because it's not in fashion in Allanak doesn't mean it wouldn't be in a place where they could ship it.

I agree with you, but to a degree. They aren't going to make money from items that noone is going to buy, i.e. northern fashions. They may have some in the back room, but they aren't going to buy it often and then only at a steal.

That's why GMH's have wagons and shit...if nobody in 'nak will buy it because it's Tuluki-ish, just pack it up and haul it north.

Quote from: Synthesis on February 21, 2011, 10:40:59 PM

Quote from: Sam on February 21, 2011, 09:56:57 PM

Quote from: Anaiah on February 19, 2011, 12:59:55 PM

Quote from: Morrolan on February 19, 2011, 11:47:19 AM
Plus, sumptuary laws... *drool*

As to Allanaki fashion: I don't see why the shops would want to NOT make money off of something just because it was made by someone else. If you have the skill to see who made what, then use it and tell them you don't want it if it's not 'Kadian Made'. The thing about these GMH's monopolies is... they're universal. They are everywhere. So yes, I can definitely see them hauling items from one place to another in a single trip every month or so. Just because it's not in fashion in Allanak doesn't mean it wouldn't be in a place where they could ship it.

I agree with you, but to a degree. They aren't going to make money from items that noone is going to buy, i.e. northern fashions. They may have some in the back room, but they aren't going to buy it often and then only at a steal.

That's why GMH's have wagons and shit...if nobody in 'nak will buy it because it's Tuluki-ish, just pack it up and haul it north.

If it's being packed and hauled north, then it's being removed from the "list" of the NPC. That isn't happening though. Northern fashions are typically and commonly available for sale in Allanak at the Kadius shop. Sometimes, the shopkeeper "sells a few items" to generate more sids so he can buy from PCs again. But usually, most of those northern fashions are still on that "list" with only one or two items removed - and those might not even be northern fashions at all.

You can say that we can pretend this is what is happening, but when the evidence is staring you in the face, it's hard to suspend your disbelief. When the Kadian shop buys northern fashions and tucks them into a virtual box instead of presenting them for display, then this will make good sense and hopefully others will embrace the idea. For anyone who thinks this would be too hard to code, it's already coded. Some of the shops do this already. Some did do it, but don't anymore because they weren't supposed to do it. The code is already there, it's already implemented. It just needs to be applied to specific shopkeepers.

Quote from: Lizzie on February 22, 2011, 08:00:32 AM

Quote from: Synthesis on February 21, 2011, 10:40:59 PM

Quote from: Sam on February 21, 2011, 09:56:57 PM

Quote from: Anaiah on February 19, 2011, 12:59:55 PM

Quote from: Morrolan on February 19, 2011, 11:47:19 AM
Plus, sumptuary laws... *drool*

As to Allanaki fashion: I don't see why the shops would want to NOT make money off of something just because it was made by someone else. If you have the skill to see who made what, then use it and tell them you don't want it if it's not 'Kadian Made'. The thing about these GMH's monopolies is... they're universal. They are everywhere. So yes, I can definitely see them hauling items from one place to another in a single trip every month or so. Just because it's not in fashion in Allanak doesn't mean it wouldn't be in a place where they could ship it.

I agree with you, but to a degree. They aren't going to make money from items that noone is going to buy, i.e. northern fashions. They may have some in the back room, but they aren't going to buy it often and then only at a steal.

That's why GMH's have wagons and shit...if nobody in 'nak will buy it because it's Tuluki-ish, just pack it up and haul it north.

If it's being packed and hauled north, then it's being removed from the "list" of the NPC. That isn't happening though. Northern fashions are typically and commonly available for sale in Allanak at the Kadius shop. Sometimes, the shopkeeper "sells a few items" to generate more sids so he can buy from PCs again. But usually, most of those northern fashions are still on that "list" with only one or two items removed - and those might not even be northern fashions at all.

You can say that we can pretend this is what is happening, but when the evidence is staring you in the face, it's hard to suspend your disbelief. When the Kadian shop buys northern fashions and tucks them into a virtual box instead of presenting them for display, then this will make good sense and hopefully others will embrace the idea. For anyone who thinks this would be too hard to code, it's already coded. Some of the shops do this already. Some did do it, but don't anymore because they weren't supposed to do it. The code is already there, it's already implemented. It just needs to be applied to specific shopkeepers.

You can say that Kadian shops operate in the following manner (in Allanak, for example):
- Someone sells a north-style item to the shop.
- It stays on display there for a while, for any of a number of reasons. Perhaps someone can be suckered into buying it. Perhaps to catch a Tuluki traveler's eye. Perhaps because a Fale bard might need it for a performance about how style-less northerners are. And so on.
- Either it gets sold, or it doesn't. If not, it goes away at the reboot. The reboot is when it's packed up and sent off to the north.
- A vNPC in Tuluk buys the now-virtual item.

vnpcs in Tuluk are paying MUCH LESS for that tuluk-style item, than the NPC paid out to the seller in Allanak.

Example: a green silk gown, in Tuluk, is on display in the Tuluk shop for 200 sids.

The same gown, given to the Nakki shop, nets the seller 500 sids, and is on display in Allanak for 1200 sids.

Summary - Kadius LOSES money every single time they return Tuluk fashions from Allanak to Tuluk, IF they paid money out *in* Allanak, for the privilege of reacquiring their own product. They also LOSE money every time they buy crafted goods in Allanak and exports them to TUluk for sale, virtually or otherwise. Codedly whenever my Kadian merchant needed to sell something to a Nakki, in Allanak, it was MUCH cheaper to have it sent from Tuluk, or even hire the BYn to escort me to TUluk and bring it down myself, than it was to have the item loaded on the NPC in the Allanak Kadian warehouse.

Doesn't fly. Not believable. Not coded to work that way, not believable enough to pretend it's coded that way.

I was torn between posting two things, so I'll post both.

Thing 1:  Behind the scenes, what actually happens is that the green silk gown is taken into a secret Kadian facility behind the shop.  NPC merchants come in and codedly decide based on a roll whether or not to sell it at the shop there using a d10.  If the roll is 2, they all kill each other in a frenzied, alcohol-induced spree of violence, spraying many silks in the back area with blood.  Not to be daunted, other NPCs will come up at this time to take the bloodied clothing before Kadian NPC agents.  Without err, they decide that the bloodied silks that the merchants were wearing should be sold in the shops in an attempt to start a new fashion trend.  We usually don't show the code behind things, but in this one case, I thought it was worth it to show that sometimes the game does more than you think.

Thing 2:

Quote from: Lizzie on February 22, 2011, 09:20:43 AM
Summary - Kadius LOSES money every single time they return Tuluk fashions from Allanak to Tuluk, IF they paid money out *in* Allanak, for the privilege of reacquiring their own product. They also LOSE money every time they buy crafted goods in Allanak and exports them to TUluk for sale, virtually or otherwise.

You're absolutely correct; they lose money every time!*





*except for the following scenarios which are virtually occurring, every time:

• Kadius travels from Allanak to Tuluk, anyway, on a regular basis (both with PCs and virtually).
• Kadius, when making this trip, will be carrying things from the south to be sold in the north.
• Materials come from regions.  Agents and Merchants will mark them up or down appropriately as they are sold to other areas.
• Overall, the trip is an overwhelming 'sid boon to the House.  Any losses incurred by moving products that won't sell are more than made up for by moving valuable products that can and do sell at a high markup.

When you limit your perspective to what is codedly possible, you are missing the point of the game.  That was the entire point of this post (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,40608.msg585016.html#msg585016) that was targeted directly at this concept.  I think it'd be a great idea to review it.  Remember:  limiting the game entirely to what is possible with code is an extreme that undermines roleplay.  It is just as true that the opposite is an extreme that should be avoided.

This has been a healthy discussion of Allanaki fashion, but unfortunately, much of it has strayed far from the mark, and separating the two threads would be more than I'm willing to handle this morning.  If anyone would like to continue discussion of code, sales, believability, or bloody silk, you can do so in a new topic.  I think that there is enough adequate response to the concept of Allanaki fashion that this thread can be locked.