Allanaki Fashion

[hyzhenhok]

It's easy to imagine the Kadius thing as one of their standard procedures for maintaining control of the market. Eliminating or directly hiring every independent clothes-maker might be within their power, but why do that when you don't have to? Being a middle-man can be very lucrative, so as long as things pass between your hands, it's fine.

As for Kadius buying clothes that don't match the regional fashion, there's no reason to think in such a relatively developed economy you wouldn't be able to find strange, out-of-fashion pieces in certain places. Remember that the shop system is abstracted; everything on the list is not necessarily in open display. I imagine the crappier, wrong-fashion pieces that you find in the Kadius shop, for example, are hidden away in a trunk behind the counter. You can put a lot of color into the shops in your roleplaying well beyond list, offer, barter, and with a little imagination you can explain away certain inevitable discrepancies.

[Sam]

You may find strange unknown clothing, but you wouldn't find any of it in abundance like you do now. Personally, I think Kadius wouldn't buy silk clothing from commoners. Why would they buy half assed clothing that was soiled by the very hands that made it, when they own that market? I think it would be fine if Kadius bought linen, sandcloth, and cotton from commoners, but not silk.

If you couldn't sell silk to Kadius, I would be satiated.

[Socko]

I disagree. If they didn't want to accept silk from certain demographics, then they already wouldn't.

[HavokBlue]

Kadians are still commoners themselves.

Also, your average common tailor probably can't afford to work with silk anyway. If someone shows up with a silk robe or whatever, there's a fair chance they have some idea what they're doing.

[Semper]

I had the idea that it was -really- easy to make coins as a good tailor anyway, no matter where you are. Would it hurt so much if Kadius didn't buy from independents? I find it kind of difficult to grasp how an independent tailor should be able to make a living working alone... maybe with another group perhaps, but not alone and with only the tailor skill.

[added] I'll rephrase that. There's plenty of subguilds that can make a whole lot of coins by itself, so that's not as good of an argument as I first thought. Still, it's kind of ridiculous how a red storm tailor can be able to sell in both Allanak and Tuluk with clothing they make that's apparently in fashion enough for shop merchants to buy... it should be a tough market to break into, and allowing only House employees to sell to House shops should help create an accurate sense of a more cut-throat market.

[Semper]

Off tangent somewhat, allowing independent crafters to sell to House-owned shops also lessens the importance of House crafters. As a House employee, basically the only benefit you get is regular pay (which is far less than what an independent crafter can make in the same amount of time) in exchange for access to free materials to craft with. Once you've learned enough in your skill to be competent/master, and have connections with PCs enough to get your own material, there's no real reason to stay within a House when you can make far more coins (and enter a more diverse market without House limitations on what you can buy/sell) when independent. Thus, you get a lot of PCs who want to join merchant houses for a year or two, but there's no long-term value in staying within a House (and so greater need to recruit OOCly for clan leaders since anyone with decent experience leave before long).

[Taven]

People have to make money somehow in game. Kadius has a monopoly, nearly, on all high fashion - why wouldn't they want independents to come to them, so they could sell their, well, 'common' crap? They're -still- going to make money off of it.

Honestly, why is it a big deal if Kadius resells what they can buy at a juicy markup?  What do they care?  They are the premier (and only) fashion and finery house in the Known World.  They do global trade, and though they are conscious of their local markets, they are at their own leisure to sell what they wish, distasteful or not.

As is the case with many monopolies, they have the power to survive even if people don't like aspects of their product.  If people don't like what Kadius slings, well, too bad.  There is nowhere else to go.

My point is that why would anyone buy Kadius if they don't know it's Kadian? What's the point of paying all that extra price for the best luxary items if it's probably just made by some random grebber anyway? It's tantamount to Kadius admitting that they aren't the best and that anything goes. It becomes, as I said, way more effective to just hire your own tailor.

On an OOC level, where else are PCs going to sell things?  Unless someone's willing to write up some new NPCs and totally revamp the clothing inventory at hand, this is not a huge issue and I would rather they buy what they can.  The Playerbase can deal with the ramifications by adjusting its behavior-- or not.  The game will still exist next week.

I think we're getting into this wayyyy too much. People have to make money somehow in game.

I agree, people do have to make money in game. However, I think this could be done through a different NPC. I don't think that the way Kadius works makes a ton of sense right now. However... I also agree that putting in the effort to fix it might not be worth it. Yes, it would be really nice, but I think there are probably other things coders can work on. That doesn't mean that I won't continue to discuss the issue however.

I do think that it would be neat to see this in Arm 2, if it's easier to work it in to that. By "this" I mean style flags of some sort for where it would be sold.

[Lizzie]

This is turning more into a Kadius vs. independent thread, and it's really an issue about Allanak fashion as a whole. As for the shopkeeper, he is "only" a shopkeeper. He is not the elite of the House, who would sit down with nobility and templars and aids and seniors of other merchant houses, to learn the tastes and needs of the customers, and provide one-on-one customer service in the privacy of their own home or the Kadian estate offices.

The shopkeeper sells to whoever has the sids to buy, and buys from whoever has the appropriate goods to sell. The issue, is with the fact that the shopkeeper doesn't seem to know what constitutes appropriate. It doesn't matter that ICly, things SHOULD be this or that way or the other way. The facts are:

If Lord Templar Doodah, the Templar just out of chargen 2 RL weeks ago, wants to give Kadius shit about anything, all he has to do is walk into one of those shops. And then contact the PC agent over the Way, and demand that she attend him at the shop. At which point he will direct her attention to the scathingly scandalously northern, inappropriate garment that HER HOUSE is selling, that HER HOUSE has created, and order her to remove it immediately from the store or be fined for daring to attempt to corrupt the fine southern citizens of His Darkness.

The problem, is that the PC has NO control over who buys or sells, or even over what gets loaded up on the shopkeeper's list. Some of those items that the NPC *comes with* are northern_Kadius. The House should know better than to be *intentionally* selling northern fashions in Allanak. These aren't even things that PCs are bringing to the shopkeeper to buy, and then turning around and reselling them. They're things that get loaded up when there are color-changes.

THEN you have to deal with the FACT that newer players may or may not have read every single doc, or even know that some of these docs exist to read - but they DO know what they see. And they see that these styles ARE sold in Allanak. And so they follow what they believe to be an appropriate trend. If it were inappropriate, surely Kadius, the premier fashion house of the Known world, would not be putting it on display, would they? They might very well slip it to the tradesman up the street. They might buy it for half of what they normally might..and sell it for twice what they normally might. But they'd sell it to some other trader with a little bribe to ensure the other trader keeps his yap shut about where he got it.

Because Kadius is politically neutral and we wouldn't want the southern templarate to get the impression that Kadius doesn't give a rat's ass about what the southern templarate thinks about Kadian commerce.

That's my contention. I really don't think certain things should be purchased or sold by Kadius in the South. HOWEVER - since they are being sold anyway, then there should be a financial consequence to doing so. If Kadius sells a 100-sid garment that's of a northern fashion in Nak, they should be charged a 50-sid tax to do so. And so now, what they paid 100 sids for, now costs 150 sids to sell. And they'd have to sell for 220 sids just to maintain their profit margin. Silk is already taxed up the yinyang, however customers are benefiting in profits by selling silks to Kadius. These independent silk-sellers are not paying the tax that the shopkeeper is paying. They should. It should be part of the sales transaction. Instead of that 400-sid dress getting 400 sids to the sub-guild tailor rinthi assassin, he should only be getting 200 sids. And the shopkeeper should be turning it around and selling it to the public for 1000 sids. Not because Kadius wants to..

But because the taxes imposed by the Templarate require that they do so, for the privilege of northern fashions sold in their southern shops being tolerated.

[hyzhenhok]

I don't think a templar would be acting appropriately if they did that. File a player complaint.

[Barzalene]

I agree, people do have to make money in game. However, I think this could be done through a different NPC. I don't think that the way Kadius works makes a ton of sense right now. However... I also agree that putting in the effort to fix it might not be worth it. Yes, it would be really nice, but I think there are probably other things coders can work on. That doesn't mean that I won't continue to discuss the issue however.

I think you have a point. You might want to just write up an npc and think where to put them and submit it to the staff. They might not use it, but they're probably more likely to incorporate that if it takes less of their time and resources.

[Niamh]

Armageddon is a ROLEPLAY mud.  How about instead of focusing on the code and what it can and can't do in relation to Kadian shops, we focus on roleplaying the world as it should be according to the documentation?

[Lizzie]

Armageddon is a ROLEPLAY mud.  How about instead of focusing on the code and what it can and can't do in relation to Kadian shops, we focus on roleplaying the world as it should be according to the documentation?

Because this isn't a MUSH. It's a highly modified customized version of DIKU and in the world of muds, code trumps roleplay. If you present me with a code that says "THIS is how things actually ARE" then it doesn't matter what the docs say. The docs are incorrect and the code does not support it.
Either the code needs to work to support the roleplay, or the docs need to be adjusted to coincide with the fact of the code.

You can change the scripting on 1, 2, or 3 shopkeepers, or you can insist that every player of this game know about the existence of the fashion docs, read them, and obey them. Or you can change the docs so that they match the code. I think the first option is the most efficient, and the most likely to actually have the desired result.

[Nyr]

They sell shields in the south and people in the north can buy more than one weapon at a time.  You can go ahead and discard the documentation for fighting styles since the code allows you to ignore it.  Someone can feasibly make a trip from Allanak to Tuluk in 10 minutes, which corresponds to one in-game hour.  Hey, the code allows you to do it, so this is probably how Salarr, Kadius, and Kurac do things.  All of their caravans are that fast because the code allows one player to do that.  Elves can codedly ride animals, so why shouldn't they?  The documentation should reflect the code in this case.  My PC got really injured but it's okay because I can sleep it off in like 5 minutes and pretend nothing happened.  It's not my fault that the code allows me to do that, I'm just doing what it lets me do.  Why should I be held to any documentation or roleplay standards?  The code allows my desert elf to spend all of his time in the city; documentation be damned--if I can enter a city, I will stay there.

Using the argument "code trumps roleplay" is crap.  Code can be used to facilitate roleplay (fleeing, killing, etc.) but it can't trump roleplay or the documentation.  The code currently is limited in regards to what shops can and can't do and it has been this way for years.  That doesn't mean it won't change, but it does mean that we expect people to roleplay and adhere to the helpfully provided documentation.

[Socko]

They sell shields in the south and people in the north can buy more than one weapon at a time.  You can go ahead and discard the documentation for fighting styles since the code allows you to ignore it.  Someone can feasibly make a trip from Allanak to Tuluk in 10 minutes, which corresponds to one in-game hour.  Hey, the code allows you to do it, so this is probably how Salarr, Kadius, and Kurac do things.  All of their caravans are that fast because the code allows one player to do that.  Elves can codedly ride animals, so why shouldn't they?  The documentation should reflect the code in this case.  My PC got really injured but it's okay because I can sleep it off in like 5 minutes and pretend nothing happened.  It's not my fault that the code allows me to do that, I'm just doing what it lets me do.  Why should I be held to any documentation or roleplay standards?  The code allows my desert elf to spend all of his time in the city; documentation be damned--if I can enter a city, I will stay there.

Using the argument "code trumps roleplay" is crap.  Code can be used to facilitate roleplay (fleeing, killing, etc.) but it can't trump roleplay or the documentation.  The code currently is limited in regards to what shops can and can't do and it has been this way for years.  That doesn't mean it won't change, but it does mean that we expect people to roleplay and adhere to the helpfully provided documentation.

Okay.  I totally agree with what you're saying.  But how do we get there?  I think the issue is that we see some areas where character behavior is found lacking-- let's say that some players are having their Allanaki characters wield swords with shields and heavy armor, commoners are wearing revealing silk clothing in professional positions that would clearly make their employers look bad.  To make it even worse, some are selling high-end silken jackets and cloaks to the lower end shops.  I still think Kadius wouldn't care that much, but that doesn't excuse this kind of thing from the spotlight.

I think it's just going to take a conscious effort on the part of the playerbase and staff to enforce.  Not to say we can't do it, but we have to decide on doing it in the first place.  And I think this thread is proof that many of us want to do just that.

[valeria]

Well, we get there by handling it ICly as best we can.  If you see some commoner wearing silks in the Gaj, roll your eyes and make fun of them, or do whatever it is your character would do when confronted by something that incongruous.  Or make fun of them behind their backs later, so that the players you are interacting with are reminded about how inappropriate that is.  Make some social stigma, and don't have your own commoners wear silks unless they have a darn good reason to.  Be the example for the newer players that don't realize that what they're doing is inappropriate.  When I think about some of the mistakes I made with my first couple characters, I cringe and wish someone HAD made it obvious that I was doing something wrong... instead of finding out about it well past the fact.

[Feco]

I always just dress for the occasion.  In the south, being covered up in order to block sun and sand seems... easy.

I think there is a problem with those dressing like morons, but I havent seen /most/ characters doing it.  Just do like we do to all people who do things 'wrong' (be an elf, cast magick, steal)... treat them differently.

[Marc]

*Banzai!  To the rescue of Lizzie*

I appreciate that we, the players, are ultimately responsible for roleplaying our individual characters based off the documentation.

That said we can only go as far as our OOC knowledge allows us to.  We cannot correctly mimic Allanaki fashion if we, the players, do not know what is "correct".  The documentation only gives very general ideas on what is acceptable and what is not and then it is not always reinforced by the npcs in the gameworld (Take a quick walk around Allanak and see how many npcs are wearing "Green".  Exactly).  This is further hindered by the point many have made:  the shops do not sell regionally appropriate clothing.

It was once announced that shop inventory changes were manually done by the immortals.  This may have changed.  Regardless, the ability to change shop inventory is there and in this case it -REALLY- should be used.  There is no good reason why the importing of foreign goods should be handled under the table and behind the scenes, especially when it comes at the cost of local goods being removed.  This is specifically aimed at Kadius with their plethora of northern made goods.  Granted, some things might need to be important based off of supplies, local of craftsmen etc, but the bread&butter inventory should be Allanaki fashion (or tuluki in tuluk etc).  If Kadius WANTS to sell northern fashions in the south the PC population suddenly has something to do.  Kadius can arrange a caravan, hire some guards and make a show of importing goods for their shops.  Having Allanaki obsidian studs show up after reboot in infinite quantity in Tuluk is just... bleh.  This would give pc merchants in houses something to do besides crafting unique puce-colored cumberbuns for rich nobles too.

to re-hash another point:  Crafters do not need lots of places to sell lewt.  The great merchant houses buying anything from unclanned pcs is just an unnecessary crutch that CAN be explained but IMHO doesn't make sense.  Merchant houses buying their own goods from unclanned pcs is just silly.  HOWEVER!!! Without the proper skillset, most PLAYERS will not know who made what.  This makes it nigh-impossible to know that you're actually selling Salarr shields to Salarr; Kadian jewelery to Kadius.  The npc merchants should just refuse to buy them or offer 1-5% of actual value.  Sure, this may eliminate some avenues to make money but who cares?  There are plenty of ways to earn rent/food/water that don't involve selling House X's merchandise back to House X.  It would also mean when the House PC's come to import goods from their other city they won't find their shop inundated with important goods brought by every tom, dick and harry independent who happened to make the trip first.

Oh, another bonus?  Maybe independents will have their incomes cut back if they cant unload to the big Houses.  You want to sell a lot to Kadius?  Get a job with Kadius.

[Nyr]

Yes, you can only go as far as your OOC knowledge allows you to go.  You can correctly imitate Allanaki fashion (should you so choose, since we staff are not necessarily your fashion police) by perusing the documentation on it.  They are very general ideas of what is acceptable and not because it's fashion, and we expect players to be able to take some guidance from them rather than have it beaten into their heads.  The clothing documentation doesn't suggest that everyone wearing pale green in Allanak is unlucky, nor that everyone wearing blue is in mourning, after all, so why does it matter if a few NPCs have pale green on? Maybe they know it's unlucky and just don't care because it was cheaper that day.  Maybe they're wearing blue because they like the color.

The same shop inventory changes that were done manually are now done automatically.  As was the case then, if there's a problem, pointing out the stuff that continually reloads (but probably shouldn't) can be done by the request tool so that adjustments can be made.  However, a brief glance over Allanak's Kadian shops doesn't seem to show me anything way out of the ordinary in the way of "regionally appropriate clothing."  I didn't check over Tuluk because this thread isn't about Tuluki fashion, but the same goes for rotations and suggestions there.

As for crafters and selling, I feel like this has probably surfaced before, but people argue on both sides of the line all the time.  This week it's "independents make boatloads of money and shouldn't be so let's punish them."  A year or so ago it was "oh noes, apartment changes are going to totally wreck all independents!"  In fact, in the same thread, the same idea is refuted by another player--in the same thread it went from "oh noes" to "indies make boatloads of sid."  Independents making boatloads of coin (assuming it is done by crafting/selling) are doing nothing at all unless they're also working to become politically powerful.  The instant they do that, they become a target.  Even having a hoard of 'sid can make you vulnerable.

Now, realism.  Salarr has a monopoly on weapon and armor sales.  Sure, you can sell your own.  You can even sell them to Salarr.  Why is that a problem?  Salarr doesn't have to make all of the weapons and armor in the world, they just want to sell them.  The same goes for clothing/jewelry and Kadius.

[Barzalene]

Wait, Nyr. Are you saying that the color change still happens every IC month, automatically? Cause that is awesome!

[Nyr]

Wait, Nyr. Are you saying that the color change still happens every IC month, automatically? Cause that is awesome!

Yes.  From the script comments:

Code Select Expand

This script will automatically rotate shop inventory, sparing you the drudgery of
* rotating merchant NPCs, or the humiliation of your forgetfulness. Once set, it is
* fully automated and requires no more action. There is also an option to manually
* rotate the shop inventory.

As one that despised the drudgery and was frequently humiliated by my forgetfulness, I am eternally grateful to Olgaris.  It was around the same time we were testing out the burgeoning auto-pay system for clans, which is also in-use.

[Salt Merchant]

You can go ahead and discard the documentation for fighting styles since the code allows you to ignore it.

I always thought that "fighting styles" were more of a suggestion than a hard-and-fast rule.

Who cares whether a mercenary has decided to train using one blade or two, so long as he gets the job done.

[Taven]

Now, realism.  Salarr has a monopoly on weapon and armor sales.  Sure, you can sell your own.  You can even sell them to Salarr.  Why is that a problem?  Salarr doesn't have to make all of the weapons and armor in the world, they just want to sell them.  The same goes for clothing/jewelry and Kadius.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, since I don't think we'll end up agreeing, but here's one more shot at this.

People have to make money somehow in game. Kadius has a monopoly, nearly, on all high fashion - why wouldn't they want independents to come to them, so they could sell their, well, 'common' crap? They're -still- going to make money off of it.

Honestly, why is it a big deal if Kadius resells what they can buy at a juicy markup?  What do they care?  They are the premier (and only) fashion and finery house in the Known World.  They do global trade, and though they are conscious of their local markets, they are at their own leisure to sell what they wish, distasteful or not.

As is the case with many monopolies, they have the power to survive even if people don't like aspects of their product.  If people don't like what Kadius slings, well, too bad.  There is nowhere else to go.

My point is that why would anyone buy Kadius if they don't know it's Kadian? What's the point of paying all that extra price for the best luxary items if it's probably just made by some random grebber anyway? It's tantamount to Kadius admitting that they aren't the best and that anything goes. It becomes, as I said, way more effective to just hire your own tailor.

You are Kadius. You make the best things, and you set fashion. Yet you are paying random, untrained merchants (by that I mean not Kadius-trained) for their work. You are selling those things in your shop. Why would someone go to a Kadian shop at all if the prices are higher and they don't have a guarantee that it is of Kadius make? I realize that PCs need places to sell to, but I have never understood why Kadius buys things. I think that would be the role of someone else, not the premier maker of luxury goods.

I think that with a merchant house, it's not just the monopoly that's implied. It's the quality. They are the best. If they weren't the best, why not hire someone else? Salarr and Kadius are expensive. They're expensive because they have the best quality, or so I have always thought. If you're with Tor, you want to have a Salarri sword, not just some random sword made by a grebber. They became monopolies because they made the best work (or arguably were the most backstabbing, but that's not necessarily relevant to this discussion).

[Nyr]

Yes, Salarri, Kadian, and Kuraci goods are considered the premier crafters of goods in each of their fields.  I don't think that's in dispute. 

I also don't think it's worth cracking down on anyone selling crafted or used goods to any of these groups through the NPC shopkeepers, especially when it makes as much sense.

[My 2 sids]

I always thought that "fighting styles" were more of a suggestion than a hard-and-fast rule.

Who cares whether a mercenary has decided to train using one blade or two, so long as he gets the job done.

Just because I think this is important for this thread. (Still luv you Salt Merchant, please forgive me!)  I think fashion docs are probably viewed the same.   Plus, it depends on the PC -- Just as in real life there are different "rules" for different sets of people:  Joe Amos may pick on covering skin, but not as many of the other rules as say Shelly who is an up-and-coming Kadian employee or Templar Bob. 


As for indies selling items:  there tends to be two types of independents -- those who make boatloads and those who barely get by.  My guess is those who barely get by are those new to the game (or new to the role),  so we don't want to punish/make things even more difficult for them. 

[boog]

As an indy, I rarely got by. Maybe it's because I didn't have spreadsheets full of info of which items sold the best for how much material you put into them.

In fact, the trend I noticed was that you made a very little margin of profit from how much the length of cloth cost to how much the merchants would buy it for - even with max barter.

Then again, I probably just suck.