Lumberjack Changes Questions

Started by mansa, May 19, 2022, 12:47:02 PM

There are lumberjack changes listed here:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57995.0.html

I have some questions.

#1 - "use axe tree" in specific rooms with no trees will be officially disabled?
New Players Guide: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,33512.0.html


Quote from: Morgenes on April 01, 2011, 10:33:11 PM
You win Armageddon, congratulations!  Type 'credits', then store your character and make a new one

Quote from: mansa on May 19, 2022, 12:47:02 PM
#1 - "use axe tree" in specific rooms with no trees will be officially disabled?

Correct
"I agree with Halaster"  -- Riev

Will this be available for all tree types?

(I made a list)

BAOBAB
AGAFARI
CUNYATI
CYLINI
CYNIPRI
JALLAL
LANTURIN
MAAR
PYMLITHE
STEMWOOD
STYRAX
THORNWOOD
WYLRITH
YYPR
New Players Guide: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,33512.0.html


Quote from: Morgenes on April 01, 2011, 10:33:11 PM
You win Armageddon, congratulations!  Type 'credits', then store your character and make a new one

Quote from: mansa on May 19, 2022, 12:51:12 PM
Will this be available for all tree types?

(I made a list)

BAOBAB
AGAFARI
CUNYATI
CYLINI
CYNIPRI
JALLAL
LANTURIN
MAAR
PYMLITHE
STEMWOOD
STYRAX
THORNWOOD
WYLRITH
YYPR

Most trees.  Styrax for example won't change as it has it's own method of being gathered.  We've also found that helpfiles need to be added for trees that don't have them, and also trees that have been virtual for so long, we need to figure out where exactly they are found and rarities.  It's going to take time, but we have a batch of 5 trees first coming out (3 at first, 2 later), the another phase will add more.

This will take time, but the main goal is to get trees that are commonly chopped and used available first, then add more in as we go.
Ourla:  You're like the oil paint on the canvas of evil.

Quote from: mansa on May 19, 2022, 12:51:12 PM
Will this be available for all tree types?

Most.  I think a couple of those in your list aren't currently reflected beyond a helpfile?  Though we made add some that you can't currently find the in the world.  The first wave with the initial rollout is going to be five trees (agafari, baobab, cylini, cynipri, pymlithe), quickly followed by more.
"I agree with Halaster"  -- Riev

Will one still be able to get branches with various other methods or will chopping down a tree become the only way to acquire them?

Quote from: Blink on May 19, 2022, 05:38:07 PM
Will one still be able to get branches with various other methods or will chopping down a tree become the only way to acquire them?

Yes, you'll still be able to gather branches with all the same various other methods.
"I agree with Halaster"  -- Riev

Good change.  I didn't like being in a baobab grove unable to get baobab logs or an agafari grove and only chopping baobab etc.

How will this affect foraging for branches and kindling?

Quote from: Delirium on May 19, 2022, 08:12:51 PM
How will this affect foraging for branches and kindling?

No change.
Ourla:  You're like the oil paint on the canvas of evil.

It'd be neat to see foraging tables updated for various groves but I imagine that's currently outside scope.

Quote from: Delirium on May 19, 2022, 10:19:05 PM
It'd be neat to see foraging tables updated for various groves but I imagine that's currently outside scope.

Yeah, a bit out of scope, but that isn't impossible, but just a lot of manual work to do something like that.
Ourla:  You're like the oil paint on the canvas of evil.

Zone-based vs coordinate based, I am definitely behind zone-based.

You can find these in the Pah. Better search the whole Pah, not just the one room that has them.

It increases exploration, time in game, and decreases "camping" certain spots (both as raiders and as wastelanders) trying to track down particular things.

I've always wondered what the difference in woods was, and why everything wasn't just made out of baobab and agafari. Now maybe someone will find out!
Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on May 20, 2013, 11:16:52 PM
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Quote from: Ath on May 19, 2022, 10:02:30 PM
Quote from: Delirium on May 19, 2022, 08:12:51 PM
How will this affect foraging for branches and kindling?

No change.

Does it have to be this way? let's say got the lumberjack skill, and I wanted to trim all the branches and save them for arrows, that might be better the typing "forage wood" for an hour irl, if I'm a good lumberjack and shitty grebber.

Maybe make it one of those lumberjacking recipes, and have it give less, say... Bark or what-have-you.
I remember recruiting this Half elf girl. And IMMEDIATELY taking her out on a contract. Right as we go into this gith hole I tell her "Remember your training, and you'll be fine." and she goes "I have no training." Then she died

I believe what was mentioned is that when you knock down a tree, it will have bark/branches on the object now in the room, so you can pull branches that way.

You just CAN ALSO forage for them, with no changes to that process.
Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on May 20, 2013, 11:16:52 PM
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Quote from: Riev on May 20, 2022, 10:39:04 AM
I believe what was mentioned is that when you knock down a tree, it will have bark/branches on the object now in the room, so you can pull branches that way.

You just CAN ALSO forage for them, with no changes to that process.

Yeah, this.

If anything, this process is going to mean more branches are possible.  You'll still be able to forage 'til your heart's content.  But also, there'll be more tree objects in the world many of which will have branches you can pull/pick off them.  Also, some of the 'recipes' for working on the fallen tree's will include branches.
"I agree with Halaster"  -- Riev

I would love to see some ability to harvest branches and other goods from the tree with lumberjacking tools and expertise, both without actually cutting down the tree and after cutting down the tree.

As I see it, there are various gathering and tree exploitation workflows that could be supported. Some already are, some are proposed in the changes, and some might not be.


  • Wandering around looking for windfall branches, bark, twigs, and leaves on the ground.
  • Finding a live tree and, without extensive tools, pulling off dead branches, twigs, leaves, and bark.
  • Finding a live tree and, using special tools, harvesting more branches, bark, twigs, leaves (even sap?) than would otherwise be possible.
  • Cutting down a tree and cutting it into logs/planks/firewood/whatever.
  • As part of preparing a downed tree to be useful (#3), lopping off branches, crown, and splitting into appropriate log lengths. This should not be optional and should leave a lot of detritus, though not necessarily a lot of game-useful detritus. Bark, leaves, and branches aren't necessarily all 'a strip of so-and-so bark', 'a long agafari branch', and 'a baobab leaf'; these items imply a kind of prime condition that the virtual ones may not meet.
  • Steps 2-5, but a dead (i.e. already fallen) tree in sufficiently good condition instead. Mostly, this simply entails less work, since you don't have to cut it down first, but also yields much less.

Any advance in support of these workflows is great for lumberjacks and makes me happy, whether it completes the list as I see it or not. I'm not the kid in the candy store who, given one piece of candy, cries about not getting another.

(Aside, but if you manage to add in coppicing and pollarding, I'll love you forever.)
There is no general doctrine which is not capable of eating out our morality if unchecked by the deep-seated habit of direct fellow-feeling with individual fellow-men. -George Eliot

Quote from: Tisiphone on May 20, 2022, 11:30:57 AM
...
Steps 2-5, but a dead (i.e. already fallen) tree in sufficiently good condition instead. Mostly, this simply entails less work, since you don't have to cut it down first, but also yields much less.
...

I like this a lot. If you could forage up a freshly-dead tree in a grove type room, and then treat that as a lumberjacked tree, that would be great. I feel like it should work like stone deposits.

Quote from: Halaster on May 20, 2022, 11:05:29 AM
Quote from: Riev on May 20, 2022, 10:39:04 AM
I believe what was mentioned is that when you knock down a tree, it will have bark/branches on the object now in the room, so you can pull branches that way.

You just CAN ALSO forage for them, with no changes to that process.

Yeah, this.

If anything, this process is going to mean more branches are possible.  You'll still be able to forage 'til your heart's content.  But also, there'll be more tree objects in the world many of which will have branches you can pull/pick off them.  Also, some of the 'recipes' for working on the fallen tree's will include branches.

Nice, good change then.

edit: This is going to have a decent sized impact on the in-game economy. But I think it will be for the better.
I remember recruiting this Half elf girl. And IMMEDIATELY taking her out on a contract. Right as we go into this gith hole I tell her "Remember your training, and you'll be fine." and she goes "I have no training." Then she died

Quote from: Fredd on May 20, 2022, 12:04:34 PM
Quote from: Halaster on May 20, 2022, 11:05:29 AM
Quote from: Riev on May 20, 2022, 10:39:04 AM
I believe what was mentioned is that when you knock down a tree, it will have bark/branches on the object now in the room, so you can pull branches that way.

You just CAN ALSO forage for them, with no changes to that process.

Yeah, this.

If anything, this process is going to mean more branches are possible.  You'll still be able to forage 'til your heart's content.  But also, there'll be more tree objects in the world many of which will have branches you can pull/pick off them.  Also, some of the 'recipes' for working on the fallen tree's will include branches.

Nice, good change then.

edit: This is going to have a decent sized impact on the in-game economy. But I think it will be for the better.

Everyone already stocks up on branches and all that, so I don't think it will have a huge impact.  The nice thing is it isn't hard for us to tweak this as we go, add or take away as needed.  The hardest part is getting all the moving parts put together and getting a baseline plan of it all.
Ourla:  You're like the oil paint on the canvas of evil.

May 20, 2022, 02:43:19 PM #20 Last Edit: May 20, 2022, 02:56:31 PM by Fredd
I will go ahead and be the first to say it.

This does sound like people will end up standing in a forest, and be unable to find a tree.

I remember recruiting this Half elf girl. And IMMEDIATELY taking her out on a contract. Right as we go into this gith hole I tell her "Remember your training, and you'll be fine." and she goes "I have no training." Then she died

Quote from: Fredd on May 20, 2022, 02:43:19 PM
This does sound like people will end up standing in a forest, and be unable to find a tree suitable for cutting down.

FTFY. But yes, the echoes or descriptions involved should reflect that the objects are spawned by candidate criteria, not just simple existence.
There is no general doctrine which is not capable of eating out our morality if unchecked by the deep-seated habit of direct fellow-feeling with individual fellow-men. -George Eliot

May 20, 2022, 02:56:45 PM #22 Last Edit: May 20, 2022, 02:59:40 PM by Fredd
Quote from: Tisiphone on May 20, 2022, 02:55:07 PM
Quote from: Fredd on May 20, 2022, 02:43:19 PM
This does sound like people will end up standing in a forest, and be unable to find a tree suitable for cutting down.

FTFY. But yes, the echoes or descriptions involved should reflect that the objects are spawned by candidate criteria, not just simple existence.

So i was cooking and i thought about this...

What if the lumberjacking skill could be used somehting like the forage skill to find suitable trees in the forest. it would reveal one that could be cut.  And if the area has been over harvested, return an echo that says you need to let the trees in the area grow a bit more?

This would mean staff wouldn't need to put in individual trees, unless that tree is rare enough to warrant it. Which might help that side of things too. And it makes it all feel a bit more immersive imho.
I remember recruiting this Half elf girl. And IMMEDIATELY taking her out on a contract. Right as we go into this gith hole I tell her "Remember your training, and you'll be fine." and she goes "I have no training." Then she died

As of now there is a shit ton of tree objects. If you can't find a tree then you aren't even trying.

May 20, 2022, 04:08:09 PM #24 Last Edit: May 20, 2022, 05:01:23 PM by lostinspace
Probably out of scope, but would be cool if there was a Floristry craft that pruned a branch cutting from a recently felled tree that could be grown into another tree when planted elsewhere.

Edit: Or really anything with Floristry. If cooking gives back minimum results, and lumberjack gives back best results, maybe floristry could give back intermediate results, or just provide different results.

Example: Cut down a maar tree.
Cooking: Can get a single log and maybe a couple branches and 2 globs of sap.
Lumberjacking: Three logs, few branches, and 2 globs of sap.
Floristry: Single log, couple branches, 5 globs of sap.
3/21/16 Never Forget