No specific implementations here just yet, but I propose that stats be made less static.

Let people train their stats. Let them become stronger, faster, more wise, and more tough.

BUT! At the same time, put them at risk of losing their stats semi-permanently. That is, semi-permanent in the fashion that their stat will remain lowered unless they train it back up again.

EXAMPLES:
Getting knocked into negative HP or taking a hit that eats more than 30-50% of your hp will lower your endurance by 1.
Falling more than 3 rooms sprains your ankle. You lose 1 agility.
You are locked in a room and starved for three days. You lose 1 strength.
You are knocked unconscious by a sap. You lose 1 wisdom due to a concussion.
A thug or Templar (is there a difference?) cripples you. You lose 3 from the stat in question.

OPPOSITE EXAMPLES FOR STAT GAIN:
You choose which stat you are trying to raise with a 'train' verb, or perhaps through more organic, less rigorous means. But regardless.

You walk around at EXTREMELY HEAVY encumbrance until your stamina is within 10 points of 0. You gain 1 strength or 1 endurance.
You meditate (-random focus every tick) or Way others until your focus nears 10 points of 0. You gain 1 wisdom.
You challenge an elf to a dance-off and learn from your failure. You gain 1 agility.
You imbibe a spice tonic made by the illustrious Houses of either Kurac or Dasari. You gain 3 to a particular stat, but lose 1 from another stat.

Element of risk is an important thing for most skills, especially ones that make it easier to kill others, you have to give people a chance if they mess up to get hurt or in trouble while raising stuff - if it's just a reduction or timer it's easy to shrug off if a character doesn't usually ever put themselves in dangerous situations, having a stat reduction doesn't really affect them... But at the same time, a chain of stories about sponsored roles dying trying to train stats wouldn't be very interesting

Not sure I agree with the examples but I do wish we had ways of increasing stats, or lowering them.

I'd consider them semi-permanant.

Get your ass handed to you? A temporary endurance drop as you recover, ranging from IRL days to weeks.

Consistently train/'work out' (however that is coded)? Bonus to strength till you stop doing these things.

Eh, not sure I like the whole "training gives you stats thing"

In the real world, training is hard and the general population is limited by their time and willpower.
In arm there'd be very little reason for everyone not to run around being as good as they could get because it's not tiring or hard to imput "lift big thing" ten times a session or whatever.

So why not just assume that people already are?

If you did implement this, there needs to be some sort of limitations or you're just going to effectively raise people's stats across the board.

Sure, I absolutely agree with limitations. Could be you quadruple your food needs and you need to regularly eat certain types of food with certain seasonings, or you need to occasionally dose with spice or rare herbs.

Nethack has this
https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Exercise
https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Attribute

It would be cute if arm had something like this and then every ig month or so you login and have slightly different stats

I feel like if you can train stats up, it becomes another thing you have to do if you're in a combat role. Sparring is bad enough. I'm at peace with the fact that stats are what they are. It would annoy me if I knew that unless I did these exercise-like things on a regular basis, I'd be missing out on stat improvements that others are getting.

I'm new around here.

Once I read up more on helpfiles and got a feel for the game, I realized that my first character was trash, and that I'd already squandered the very limited amount of time available for a reroll. It was a pretty bad feeling, and left an initial sour taste in my mouth for the game.

I have to say that I am really, really not a fan of how stats are rolled in this game. I don't think it should be possible for your stat rolls totals (summed all 4 stats) should be able to vary to such a wide degree that it feels like one character is awesome out the gates and the other is riding the struggle bus. It seems like this system exists as a throwback to the old pencil & paper days of 2nd Edition. Even if we stick with the theme of continuing on in that vein, most tabletop systems have converted over to either point-buy stats on a bellcurve pricing scheme, or to a fixed spread of dice that you can allocate as you see fit. Simply because this is a issue that causes problems on the small scale of tabletop games where players are feeling like they're inequal in a cooperative setting, and here we are with 2-10x the playerbase on at any given time and it's a competitive system. If I knew that numerically, everyone had one awesome stat and one awful stat and the rest in the average-good range, then that'd be fine. What doesn't seem fine is that the current system allows for outliers where (using made up numbers here) one player might have 50% greater total number of stat points over the other due to a god roll. Or 50% under the median.

If stats are mutable and able to change over time, this problem simply becomes that of time played on the character. That opens a new can of worms for some players who are more part-timers or casual-paced gamers, but these games also were never really designed for people to be on a totally level playing field when it comes to time invested. Generally RPG's boil down to adventure more = get more and better stats/items/fame/etc.


A few suggestions from a noob perspective:
1) Three hours is insufficient time for actually new players. If the goal is to have your first character be a throw-away toon, that's fine I guess, but 3 hours into the game I was still frantically spamming help commands trying to figure out how to get more water.
2) The variance in total number of stat points on a character should be pretty static (and low).
3) Stat growth over the time fits the existing theme of skill growth over time and might encourage players to throw less characters into the bin and actually play them out- perhaps even playing *to* their weaknesses on their sheet to overcome their perceived deficiencies. Queue Rocky Balboa training montage.

Quote from: Birdbrain on January 12, 2022, 08:27:54 PM

A few suggestions from a noob perspective:
1) Three hours is insufficient time for actually new players. If the goal is to have your first character be a throw-away toon, that's fine I guess, but 3 hours into the game I was still frantically spamming help commands trying to figure out how to get more water.
2) The variance in total number of stat points on a character should be pretty static (and low).

I think staff is pretty "all in" on the dice rolling for stats, but both of these ideas could work within that framekwork. Offering new players much longer for a stat reroll (say first 2 characters get 1 day played or something) doesn't seem at all gamebreaking.

The variance-control idea is something I like. Allowing stats to be randomly rolled, but keep the total points similar across characters. So characters could be above average jack of all trades, or unbalanced savants with grave weaknesses and powerful strengths. But you wouldn't have people that are good at everything or bad at everything anymore. I honestly don't think these sorts of characters (I can do everything great! I can't do anything well!) add as much to the game as they take away. I get that their existence makes things a little more realistic, but the cost for that added realism is too high.

To OP's first point of the current time being insufficient for stat reroll, at least on a first character:  +1.  I had ZERO idea what I was doing in my first dozen or so hours, and I know I'm not the only one.

I might be in the minority, but I generally like the way Arm stats work (with a few small exceptions). I like that not all characters are made equal with an equal number of stat points but just spread differently. If this wasn't a permadeath game and people were sticking with PCs for longer lengths of time I would feel differently on this. But because it is permadeath, and people usually roll through tons of characters - I think it works really well.

I love that we can have PCs that are totally trash at everything, and it's awesome when players lean into this, there should be total losers in the world, even if they don't last long (not all characters are destined to last.. some ought to be short-lived flavour characters who live fast and die young). On the other end of the scale, I love that there is the occasional chance for total legends, who just rock at everything and in the hands of a savvy player and good circumstances can achieve ridiculous things.

I think it's balanced and fair because.. everyone has an equal and fair chance of rolling these stats at some point. (she says, having never rolled an AI ever... bah).

Some things I don't like:

- I don't like that there is no way to work on stats IG, there used to be. I never ever used it, but I liked that the possibility was there and it always made me feel more at peace having trashy stats knowing that if I could be bothered, I could try and do something about it.

- How stats can just completey undermine a concept. Sometimes you really want to roll that big, stronk, burly PC and you write up that supporting background and appropriately muscled mdesc then they come out of the door with low str (despite prioritising). I had a chat with someone recently who had played a game where stats were rolled with similarly to how they are in Arm, but then everyone had an extra 4 points they could drop into anything. So they could boost up something that fell low or they could really pump up something that was already good... I really dig the idea of that little bit of extra flexibility.

- I dunno how rerolls actually work and we probably shouldn't discuss it in detail. But it always felt to me like rerolls weren't completely fresh rerolls, they always seem to be in the same ballpark with some stats always remaining the same and maybe a few shifting a little bit.. It could all be in my head, but I wish rerolls were.. completely, totally new rerolls.. If they're not.

Quote from: Maso on January 13, 2022, 07:37:03 AM

- I dunno how rerolls actually work and we probably shouldn't discuss it in detail. But it always felt to me like rerolls weren't completely fresh rerolls, they always seem to be in the same ballpark with some stats always remaining the same and maybe a few shifting a little bit.. It could all be in my head, but I wish rerolls were.. completely, totally new rerolls.. If they're not.

Someone can correct me on this if I'm wrong, but I think I remember reading that it actually IS designed as a partial reroll. I have a very limited experience (I think I've tried to reroll maybe two characters) and if I recall correctly, the last character I tried a reroll on ended up WORSE off for it. You're not only rerolling your attributes, but your pools as well. And if you reroll and revert back, your pools can end up different from what they started with. The system seems to be designed to discourage you from doing it.

I'd like a staff member to weigh in, but isn't this already possible through request plus role play?

I would assume you could in theory make a request with staff that was accompanied with the effort put fourth and then the staff could raise a stat and possibly even lower another to keep you in parity.

It isn't automated, but I think part of the problem with automation of such a system is abuse.  Maybe a way to work around the abuse angle could be done, but I'm not sure the request tool is a bad solution if you really want to work on stat alterations.

Quote from: Supified on January 13, 2022, 12:15:39 PM
I'd like a staff member to weigh in, but isn't this already possible through request plus role play?

I would assume you could in theory make a request with staff that was accompanied with the effort put fourth and then the staff could raise a stat and possibly even lower another to keep you in parity.

It isn't automated, but I think part of the problem with automation of such a system is abuse.  Maybe a way to work around the abuse angle could be done, but I'm not sure the request tool is a bad solution if you really want to work on stat alterations.

My understanding is they don't do this anymore except under extremely unusual circumstances. Personally, I agree with this. The problem with providing stat bumps on request is that what would count as a valid reason is pretty arbitrary, and you have to figure that a pretty large proportion of players are going to assume a rejection of what they personally consider to be a very valid reason for a stat bump to be some sort of attack on them as a player. It's sticky and messy and prone to creating all sorts of interpersonal problems.

They aren't going to bump up your stats or skills, or add any, via request tool.

The only time I think they'll bump stats is if you're playing an elf and you got such a piss poor roll you can't wear your clothes.

Quote from: Birdbrain on January 12, 2022, 08:27:54 PM
I'm new around here.

Once I read up more on helpfiles and got a feel for the game, I realized that my first character was trash, and that I'd already squandered the very limited amount of time available for a reroll. It was a pretty bad feeling, and left an initial sour taste in my mouth for the game.

I have to say that I am really, really not a fan of how stats are rolled in this game. I don't think it should be possible for your stat rolls totals (summed all 4 stats) should be able to vary to such a wide degree that it feels like one character is awesome out the gates and the other is riding the struggle bus.

What about reducing the variance of stats overall:
  such that nobody ever gets "poor", "below average", "exceptional", or "absolutely incredible",
and adding "boost stat" as a spendable bonus using CGP
  such that you could occasionally, for instance, add 1.5 categories to one stat of your choice?

Everybody much more the same, with Gooder Stats being something you can budget for?

I don't completely love this (and stats as they are don't bother me), but maybe it's a reasonable tack.

I don't think that this would work in today's atmosphere.

People are far too meta today and would get consumed by wanting higher stats. They would get even more twinky and I can imagine the complaints if a stat went down. We have already gone over the top of a slippery slope, that would just add grease to it.

Pretty neat and creative idea, however. Especially having a downside.

Quote from: Maso on January 13, 2022, 07:37:03 AM
I might be in the minority, but I generally like the way Arm stats work (with a few small exceptions).

I'm in the minority with you then. I like the arm stats.


As far as rerolls go, I know I've had rerolls that are worse, but lots that have been an improvement. And although perhaps rerolls has been changed since then, I've had rerolls that are DRASTICALLY different then my originals. Going from average stats to much lower or much higher.

I like the spirit of this, but not the specifics.  Seems like a lot of code work, and will inspire odd gameplay where people have some weird stat-boosting rituals they undergo before performing certain activities.  I'd prefer a more straight forward approach that provides long term benefits for characters as they age and progress, allowing them to customize themselves to better match who their character has become over the course of their life.

For example, what if you got to give yourself a stat boost after each in-game year, at the expense of another stat.  For instance, your Fighter/Weaponcrafter that took an arrow to the knee and decided to become a Salarri Merchant instead of staying with the Byn could knock a point off their agility and boost their wisdom instead.  If you want to ignore the roleplay element, and go with a more gameplay driven example... that Bynner who rolled only a Good strength that's been envious of every other fighter type who faired better at character generation has an opportunity to become buff, as long as they play the character long enough and sacrifice other stats to do so.

There's a reason D&D lets players boost their stats at certain milestones, and Armageddon was originally modelled off of tabletop-like systems...  Seems like a no brainer to me.  It would also be a fun moment when your character has a "birthday" and you get to do something to change your character as a result.

Guard rails on stat maximums should obviously apply here, and those maximums should probably be capped below what you could roll out of character generation to preserve the rarity of getting lucky genetics in life.  You may not be able to get that AI or Exceptional stat you wanted, but maybe you could get to Extremely Good through a system like this given enough time.  You'd never be able to have more total stats than you start with, but you could at least customize as if it was a point buy system over a long enough period of time.

Quote from: wizturbo on January 13, 2022, 10:18:58 PM
There's a reason D&D lets players boost their stats at certain milestones, and Armageddon was originally modelled off of tabletop-like systems...  Seems like a no brainer to me.  It would also be a fun moment when your character has a "birthday" and you get to do something to change your character as a result.

Not back in my day, sonny!  Back when I played D&D in 1st and 2nd Editions, you got 6 rolls of 3d6 and arranged them and that's it.  You rolled stats first, then figured out what you could play based on those.  Maybe you're DM was nice and let you kludge it a little.  But you got shitty stats and you liked it!  And those stats were in the snow, uphills, both ways!  Now get off my lawn.

Alright old timer.  Maybe 1st or 2nd edition will make a glorious comeback...  not holding my breath though

Even 1st and 2nd edition had things like feats though as optional rules.

Okay Grandpa... Your Thac0 score is high enough to fight an anakore, now lets get you back inside....

Dark Sun stats are rolled very differently from regular DnD stats. Also, getting back into things takes less(no) time as compared to Armageddon.

Quote from: wizturbo on January 13, 2022, 10:18:58 PM

There's a reason D&D lets players boost their stats at certain milestones, and Armageddon was originally modelled off of tabletop-like systems...  Seems like a no brainer to me.  It would also be a fun moment when your character has a "birthday" and you get to do something to change your character as a result.

Guard rails on stat maximums should obviously apply here, and those maximums should probably be capped below what you could roll out of character generation to preserve the rarity of getting lucky genetics in life.  You may not be able to get that AI or Exceptional stat you wanted, but maybe you could get to Extremely Good through a system like this given enough time.  You'd never be able to have more total stats than you start with, but you could at least customize as if it was a point buy system over a long enough period of time.

Rather than guardrails, I suggested cost curving stats. Poor to mediocre = 1pt. Average to good = 2pt. Great to amazing = 3 pt. Amazing to godlike = 5 pt.
Give people 3-4 points for every six months their character is alive. You want to get to godlike in something? Sure, but it's going to be the sole focus of all your potential progression, to the detriment of all other potential growth. At least, that's the idea?

This could even be a purely manual application process that wouldn't require any coded system changes. Give players a little "stat gain timer" on login like karma (but character bound, not account bound) and incentivize people to stick around and play out their plotlines than run back and play the reroll lotto.

Given the ability to modify their stats over time (to a degree) I'd totally see if some of the high-tier rolls weren't available out of Cgen just for balance's sake. That way someone who has one or two amazingly good stats in cgen can't simply progress their character to a situation where they're more or less stat capped across the board.

I would like a guaranteed stat bump of "1", after playing for 1 IC year, for all characters.   Roleplay not required.

After you log into your character, and they have aged 1 year, , and you get the message, 'Your birthday has passed', you have the opportunity to select a single stat to bump, and it will be bumped by 1 level.  This doesn't necessarily move it from 'poor' to 'below average', but moves it from '7 -> 8' on your hidden character sheet.

It is only available once.