Just because people want something (particularly if it is an IC desire) doesn't mean that it should be given to them.  

Otherwise we might as well just have silks and steel swords rain from the sky.  Well... maybe not steel swords.  (Though that would be a very Armageddon thing to do if, say, a demon granted someone a wish and they asked for riches to appear out of thin air).


Anyway, my point is: it's worth considering that your average city commoner may not really be meant to own more than they can carry.

Also people should possibly share apartments more often (though I do know that this happens fairly frequently already).

I'd also -really- like to see warehouses. Not quitsafe, but cheap, lockable rooms where merchants can store things. One room with a really lousy description (bugs, sweltering heat) to discourage people living there, and no furnishings. Easy to pick lock, too.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on July 11, 2008, 01:10:17 PM
Anyway, my point is: it's worth considering that your average city commoner may not really be meant to own more than they can carry.

The average commoner is also not an aide to a noble or templar, or a Sergeant of the Kuraci Fist, or a Seeker of Poets' Circle, or the Guild's top assassin, or anything important or notable in the least. The "average commoner" argument has no relevance when PCs are not average. The fact that it's always the MOST expensive apartments that are rented, while the unsecure hovels are much more often not rented, points out the fact that PCs have (on average) far more money and status than the VNPC-NPC average.

And it's highly impractical to expect PCs to just stop wanting to own stuff. It's human nature to want to own stuff. We can argue and cajole until we're blue in the face, and PCs will still want things, and want a place to put them.

I also feel the "function" of apartments needs to be addressed. If someone just needs a place to store his personal stuff, and isn't planning on roleplaying any actual "life" in that dwelling, then he shouldn't be needing to rent a 3-room luxury suite. He should be able to find a moderately secure 1-room "closet" in the hallway of some building somewhere. Like a U-Stor-It where he can enter, take/put, leave, lock up as needed, and it would be "break-into-able" (unlike Nenyuk storage in the bank, which isn't break-into-able).

Also, no one should be renting rooms to spar, if those rooms are designated as living spaces. Because I know people do this, perhaps there should be a couple of "practice buildings" in each place that has rentable apartments. Sort of like covered fields, where you can rent a sparring weapon the -exact- same way as you rent a key to an apartment. Instead of apartments though, the rooms are described as covered outdoor areas, where sparring weapons can be used, where you can rent a dummy for a couple of hours, where IF you try backstab or any other "don't do this" stuff on the dummy you'll be evicted and blacklisted from renting again for a IC year or some other kind of thing like that. And of course if someone dies within that sparring area, since it's city property and still under city jurisdiction, you'll get crim-flagged.

People who want to spar, such as independent merc groups who don't have coded sparring areas and wouldn't logically hunt goudras to learn how to smack people around..should be able to. In an appropriate place. Not in an apartment.

People who just want to store things, and not actually RP living in an apartment, should be able to. In an appropriate storage area. Not an apartment.

People who need workshops to bang hammers down on rock or saw wood all day, or chisel stone, or fill the floor with sawdust or scraps of cloth and broken needles everywhere, or vats of nasty stinking tanning liquids, should be able to do so. In an appropriate workshop area. Not an apartment.

So - there should be multiple TYPES of rentable places. I think this would be a HUGE step in solving the problem.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on July 11, 2008, 01:00:40 PM

Quote from: Rahnevyn on July 11, 2008, 11:54:20 AM- Instead of more coded apartments, what do you feel about unsecure multi-room communal dwellings that could be shared by many PCs/NPCs?

Not very useful to PCs for the things that apartments are actually used for.

I dunno.  What if it wasn't just a hovel with an open door?  What if it was its own community?  Say, this hovel would accept five or six PCs and there'd be a guard out front.  The only people allowed in would be those who pay a meager monthly fee.  As for internal security, there'd be tenant NPCs who would watch anyone who wasn't a tenant and entered without perfect stealth, and if they saw them take anything, the person would be flagged as a criminal.

You could place items in here, but there would be risk.  You wouldn't store items too valuable to lose unless your other tenants were proven to be absolutely trustworthy.  If your character was deemed untrustworthy, you might find the other tenants trying to pressure you out of the dwelling.

I think it'd be fun.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on July 11, 2008, 01:18:02 PM
The average commoner is also not an aide to a noble or templar, or a Sergeant of the Kuraci Fist, or a Seeker of Poets' Circle, or the Guild's top assassin, or anything important or notable in the least. The "average commoner" argument has no relevance when PCs are not average. The fact that it's always the MOST expensive apartments that are rented, while the unsecure hovels are much more often not rented, points out the fact that PCs have (on average) far more money and status than the VNPC-NPC average.

A fair point.  Perhaps, then the solution is not more public housing but more satisfying clan dwellings?  More secure personal storage and/or privacy?  More lax guest policies for lower-ranked employees?

QuoteAnd it's highly impractical to expect PCs to just stop wanting to own stuff. It's human nature to want to own stuff. We can argue and cajole until we're blue in the face, and PCs will still want things, and want a place to put them.

I don't expect people to stop wanting things.  I simply suggest that the players should realize that it's not necessarily a good thing for the game that all wants be satisfied.  I haven't personally decided yet whether this is one of those wants that makes the game better or not.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on July 11, 2008, 01:24:44 PM
I don't expect people to stop wanting things.  I simply suggest that the players should realize that it's not necessarily a good thing for the game that all wants be satisfied.  I haven't personally decided yet whether this is one of those wants that makes the game better or not.

That's a good question. I'd ask whether or not the lack of available apartments turns people away from the game. Is this a barrier to newbies? Is it a discouraging factor to older players? If not having apartments for rent, of whatever kind, turns people away from the game...then I'd want more apartments or some other solution to the stuff-storage, private-RP issues.

Quote from: Dalmeth on July 11, 2008, 01:23:23 PM
What if it wasn't just a hovel with an open door?  What if it was its own community?  Say, this hovel would accept five or six PCs and there'd be a guard out front.  The only people allowed in would be those who pay a meager monthly fee.  As for internal security, there'd be tenant NPCs who would watch anyone who wasn't a tenant and entered without perfect stealth, and if they saw them take anything, the person would be flagged as a criminal.

You could place items in here, but there would be risk.  You wouldn't store items too valuable to lose unless your other tenants were proven to be absolutely trustworthy.  If your character was deemed untrustworthy, you might find the other tenants trying to pressure you out of the dwelling.

That's an interesting idea.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on July 11, 2008, 01:00:40 PM

Quote from: Rahnevyn on July 11, 2008, 11:54:20 AM- Instead of more coded apartments, what do you feel about unsecure multi-room communal dwellings that could be shared by many PCs/NPCs?

Not very useful to PCs for the things that apartments are actually used for.

The problem isn't the communal-ness (which is kinda neat, IMO); it's the insecurity.  A communal dwelling with individual lockers would probably work fine for a lot of lower-crust people.


> rent with gimfalisette
The rugged, muscular man says, jerking a thumb towards the open doorway, in sirihish,
  "Right, then. Yeh can both use the red locker."
> enter hovel
> open blue.locker
You open a blue-painted agafari locker.
An adorable, tousle-headed child looks up at you.
An adorable, tousle-headed child says, lisping, in sirihish,
  "Hey mishter, you sloundn't be messhing with her shtuff."
> get coins blue.locker
You get a small pile of obsidian coins from a blue-painted agafari locker.
There were 1 coins.
You are now wanted!


Like Dalmeth's idea, but with a little more security scripted in.

Quote from: Rahnevyn on July 11, 2008, 11:54:20 AM
- Could we address this issue by making some housing in Allanak more expensive in order to reduce demand?

I have always thought that apartments should be more expensive, but not to reduce demand. If a skin of water costs ~60 coins and most basic weaponry/armour/clothing items cost between 70 and 150... I find it strange that there are apartments that are only 250 per rent cycle to rent. It just seems disproportionately low compared to the prices of other items ingame.

Quote- In the context of a crowded city where space is limited, do you as players feel there should be an apartment in the city for every PC who wants one?

I feel that there are already enough apartments in the city for every PC who wants one. The issue is that these apartments are staying rented out for up to OOC weeks past the time these PCs die, so the appearance of vacancy isn't there when, in reality, I'm sure there are vacant units.

Quote- What do you feel about limits on the number of apartments PCs can rent in one city?

Absolutely not. I feel like this would hurt a lot of PC interaction and PC business, namely of the sneaky variety. If I'm playing an assassin and I want to bring somebody to an apartment to kill them, my character might not love the idea of disemboweling people in the same apartment where she actually lives. Or if I'm playing a burglar or spice smuggler or what-have-you, I want the option (provided my character can afford it and decides that they want it) of being able to store my hot and/or illegal goods in an apartment other than the one I've got my character living in.

I don't think people renting multiple apartments is the reason why there are no vacancies.

Quote- Instead of more coded apartments, what do you feel about unsecure multi-room communal dwellings that could be shared by many PCs/NPCs?

I, personally, would love to see some of these and I think they'd be great and atmospheric. However, the sad truth is I don't think many characters would use them.



I could be entirely wrong, but I honestly believe that the biggest problem when it comes to not being able to locate vacant apartments is that apartments stay rented out for up to 299 IC days after your character dies. That's a long time.

Back when the maximum amount of time you could rent for was 150 IC days (I believe it was 150, at least), I seemed to notice a lot more apartments being freed up. Granted, a lot of these were also probably players who'd topped up for 150 days, then been unable to play, and then lost their apartment due to not logging on, which sucks. I don't like the idea of bringing the limit back down to 150 for that reason.

But I'm not sure what would be a better solution. It's a tough issue.

Hmmm... maybe the limit should be lowered, but there should be some way to make special provisions for when you're going to log out for a while. Like double rent.

Quote from: brytta.leofa on July 11, 2008, 01:29:24 PM

Quote from: Gimfalisette on July 11, 2008, 01:00:40 PM

Quote from: Rahnevyn on July 11, 2008, 11:54:20 AM- Instead of more coded apartments, what do you feel about unsecure multi-room communal dwellings that could be shared by many PCs/NPCs?

Not very useful to PCs for the things that apartments are actually used for.

The problem isn't the communal-ness (which is kinda neat, IMO); it's the insecurity.  A communal dwelling with individual lockers would probably work fine for a lot of lower-crust people.


> rent with gimfalisette
The rugged, muscular man says, jerking a thumb towards the open doorway, in sirihish,
  "Right, then. Yeh can both use the red locker."
> enter hovel
> open blue.locker
You open a blue-painted agafari locker.
An adorable, tousle-headed child looks up at you.
An adorable, tousle-headed child says, lisping, in sirihish,
  "Hey mishter, you sloundn't be messhing with her shtuff."
> get coins blue.locker
You get a small pile of obsidian coins from a blue-painted agafari locker.
There were 1 coins.
You are now wanted!


Like Dalmeth's idea, but with a little more security scripted in.

I like this.

Quote from: Tisiphone on July 11, 2008, 07:36:40 AM
This is an IC issue.

I disagree. Just look along Merchant's Road, for example, at how many empty buildings are around. If the demand is there, the space is available. Except that it hasn't been implemented.

Quote from: staggerlee on July 11, 2008, 11:51:11 AM
Actually I think Zalanthas is supposed to be in a state of perpetual housing crisis.  Most people in Nak don't have homes.

And you get this from, where? From PCs having to stay in tavern common rooms when they start out?

I don't see mass numbers of homeless NPCs sleeping on the streets, do you?

I'd like to point out too to people that, if anything, housing should be in extreme supply around now. After all the deaths from the gith invasion, from privation due to tighter food supplies, and so on.

Quote from: Tisiphone on July 11, 2008, 07:36:40 AM
This is an IC issue.

Ummm....

Quote from: Nyr on July 11, 2008, 08:29:29 AM
With that said, the answer to your question IS a mix of IC and OOC. 

Quote from: Rahnevyn on July 11, 2008, 11:54:20 AM
Asking about the possibility of more apartments being built in Allanak due to OOC overcrowding is a valid question, I think.

I realize it is somewhat due to IC issues, but most of it is directly attributable to OOC overcrowding; the game just has more players than when the apartments were built; its not as if the cities have had huge population booms IG.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on July 11, 2008, 06:10:34 PM
I'd like to point out too to people that, if anything, housing should be in extreme supply around now. After all the deaths from the gith invasion, from privation due to tighter food supplies, and so on.

And that!

Quote from: Salt Merchant on July 11, 2008, 06:09:19 PM

Quote from: staggerlee on July 11, 2008, 11:51:11 AM
Actually I think Zalanthas is supposed to be in a state of perpetual housing crisis.  Most people in Nak don't have homes.

And you get this from, where? From PCs having to stay in tavern common rooms when they start out?

I don't see mass numbers of homeless NPCs sleeping on the streets, do you?

There are beggars and poverty stricken NPCs all over the streets, room descriptions detailing teeming hoards of beggars, primitive shelters like tents or abandoned buildings used as squats.... yes, yes I do see masses of homeless in the streets of Nak. Read NPC descriptions and room descriptions, it's all there.

If that's not enough go through the help files. Here's some of the more obvious quotes:

Quote from: help files
Apartments     (General)

Many inhabitants of Zalanthas' major cities live in less than ideal conditions, and even a dirty room with no more than four walls and a ceiling can be considered a luxury.

Quote from: help files

Allanak is possibly the richest single civilization in the Known World, in total wealth. This prosperity is, however, very unevenly distributed across the population. The life of the average Allanaki citizen is one of strife--expensive and degenerate living conditions, coupled with a nearly omnipotent ruler who watches every move his subjects make.

I think you'll have a hard time making a case that Nak is a pleasant place where housing is readily available.  It's a struggle, most people can't even find work let alone a house.  I mean whether or not I think that player housing should be more available, there's no arguing that the game is intended to be harsh and that your average commoner is supposed to have a damn hard time finding a safe place to sleep at night.

Quote from: staggerlee on July 11, 2008, 06:31:15 PM
There are beggars and poverty stricken NPCs all over the streets, room descriptions detailing teeming hoards of beggars, primitive shelters like tents or abandoned buildings used as squats.... yes, yes I do see masses of homeless in the streets of Nak. Read NPC descriptions and room descriptions, it's all there.

If that's not enough go through the help files. Here's some of the more obvious quotes:

Quote
Many inhabitants of Zalanthas' major cities live in less than ideal conditions, and even a dirty room with no more than four walls and a ceiling can be considered a luxury.

Quote
Allanak is possibly the richest single civilization in the Known World, in total wealth. This prosperity is, however, very unevenly distributed across the population. The life of the average Allanaki citizen is one of strife--expensive and degenerate living conditions, coupled with a nearly omnipotent ruler who watches every move his subjects make.

You claimed that most people do not have homes. Are there some homeless? Yes. But I've seen no evidence that most commoners live out on the streets.

Quote from: Rahnevyn on July 11, 2008, 11:54:20 AM
- Could we address this issue by making some housing in Allanak more expensive in order to reduce demand?

You could. And if you wanted help writing room descriptions you'd have no trouble getting it.

Quote from: Rahnevyn on July 11, 2008, 11:54:20 AM
- In the context of a crowded city where space is limited, do you as players feel there should be an apartment in the city for every PC who wants one?

I don't know. Maybe? On one hand, as I've said many times before I see a downside to every pc having their own apartment as it tends to take them out of public venues for longer periods of time. Makes it harder to eavesdrop as well. At least if people are plotting in backrooms, people might see them going in and out of back rooms.

On the other hand when I want an apartment, I want one. Maybe I can be special?

Quote from: Rahnevyn on July 11, 2008, 11:54:20 AM
- What do you feel about limits on the number of apartments PCs can rent in one city?

Yes, but the limit should not be one, for rp reasons. And perhaps limits only on being a primary renter, as those who lead secret lives may have the need not to be exposed by the code as already having a dwelling place. You should be able to lie about it.

Quote from: Rahnevyn on July 11, 2008, 11:54:20 AM
- Instead of more coded apartments, what do you feel about unsecure multi-room communal dwellings that could be shared by many PCs/NPCs?

Eh. But I love the storage idea, outlined by Furious George and quoted below:

Quote from: Furious GeorgeI think, if the code is in place via Nenyuk holding small items and whatever is left of the old mailbox system in the taverns from ages ago, why not adjust this in a few steps?

1.  Raise the initial cost of apartments.
2.  Set up some sort of shop that will utilize the banking code, but will instead store containers of items for pcs, giving them a ticket or something to reference in balance?  Maybe charge getting it out of storage by weight?  Who really knows?  Something along these lines could work though.  And would eliminate the need for renting an apartment just for storage.
3.  Bring Nenyuk back renting out places that aren't 'coded apartments'...catering to upscale individuals with huge loot.
4.  Make a plain, bare bones apartment building, but call each apartment a 'workshop'...have it a save room with a work table and a chest that are affixed to the ground.  Put a bunch of them in a multi level building at cheap cost.  Make them save rooms but not quit rooms.
5.  Add shanty hovels here and there.

Smiley  Hopefully nothing too heavy handed on workload, but I think it would be a good thing.

The pricing is decent, I think, if not perfect. 250 per rent cycle is plenty and enough for a "normal" apartment avaliable to players. Some players can't spend 50 hours a week only, some just 5.. I think they should have a chance at some of the perks of this mud.

This game is about enjoyment, and sure it IS fun to play in an atompshere like Allanak for instance, but does not that have to OOC spill into the fact that you have to clear your week schedule to get a hold of an apartment. You know it can be done, but we as people have better things to do, even though perhaps the enjoyment from having an apartment is worth the effort to some.

It's not that "this is how it should be", you can get an apartment - but I don't think this should be an OOC competition about something IC. Even if you have 20k 'sid, you couldn't bribe yourself into an apartment building. (Not even by player interacment - one cannot give over an apartment or even let one go! Perhaps a Nenyuk PC can help with this, but I've never seen it happen.)

I just find the hassle of OOC avaliablity versus IG game vision silly, so change the game world - recent secret boom in housing.. There are 12 more room! >_>

Quote from: Voular on July 11, 2008, 09:14:29 PM
The pricing is decent, I think, if not perfect. 250 per rent cycle is plenty and enough for a "normal" apartment avaliable to players. Some players can't spend 50 hours a week only, some just 5.. I think they should have a chance at some of the perks of this mud.

Very good point.. that's me.  It sucks to lose out or be looked down upon because you have limited time to play.

I wouldn't mind seeing more shacks and shanties.. and maybe some that you can acquire a key to.

One of the problems with housing is when new characters enter the game, some of them go and rent an apartment.  A good percentage of these people die so the place is still rented for the time but the character may be dead.  It wouldn't be realistic to make the place available because the PC is dead.

So making more apartments wouldn't exactly solve this problem of no apartments being available (unless we make so many that it'd be crazy), because in most cases it would just mean that there would be more places that were unavailable.

Quote from: jcljules on July 11, 2008, 01:52:28 PM
Hmmm... maybe the limit should be lowered, but there should be some way to make special provisions for when you're going to log out for a while. Like double rent.

You can rent an apartment for up to 300 days.  That's double what you originally begin renting for (only 150 days).  If you want to rent for even longer, you can wish up and arrange something.

Zalanthas is supposed to be about struggle in a harsh world.  If there isn't enough of something (like housing), that sounds realistic to me.  It's like some posters have already said, just because you want something, doesn't mean it is good for the game.

There are places to rent.  Allanak has over 35 places that people can rent.  Is that not enough places?

People can also have roommates, maybe put something out on the rumor board that you're looking to co rent a place.
Or maybe you can sublet from someone.  I think it'd be cool if someone was renting one of the nicer places in town and they wanted to sublet it out to people for a profit.

Quote from: Myrdryn on July 11, 2008, 11:28:46 PM

Quote from: jcljules on July 11, 2008, 01:52:28 PM
Hmmm... maybe the limit should be lowered, but there should be some way to make special provisions for when you're going to log out for a while. Like double rent.

You can rent an apartment for up to 300 days.  That's double what you originally beginning renting for (only 150 days).  If you want to rent for even longer, you can wish up and arrange something.

Normal rent   - 9.375 real life days.
Max rent       - 18.75 real life days.

Thinking max rent would not be bad if you were not going be around a week or so.... I always just packed up my apartment if I couldn't play for awhile, and took everything with me and logged out somewhere else.. Never really had it taken from me.. Besides once.. Once I logged out in my apartment, and couldn't return for a week or so, and logged in to see someone had rented out my damn place and I was stuck there.. picking my nose.. So I stole their shit. lol

Myrdyrn's post got me thinking about the vacancy-when-dead issue.

Supposedly, Nenyuk's resources are vast..they know everyone who puts sids in the bank, they must have lots and lots of spies (and even less shady type of employees) who can send word when someone's dead (and thus, when it's safe for them to take all that money out of the customer's account and keep it for themselves). So maybe..a dead tenant could start a comparison/timer.

Rent due in 8 or more RL days (because player double-rented), Character dies: Timer for 5 days starts. In 5 RL days, Nenyuk has been informed that character is dead, apartment becomes available again.

Rent due in 4-7 RL days, character dies: Timer for 3 days starts. In 3 RL days, apartment becomes available.

Rent due in 1-3 days - no timer, it becomes available when the rent is due.

Vacancy can be overrided and reset if any of the following are true:
1) an IMM resets it
2) a Templar resets it
3) a *senior* member PC of the character's clan resets it (such as a noble, but not a noble's senior aide)
4) a Nenyuk PC resets it

Whoever resets it would have immediate access to clear it out or examine the evidence inside for IC purposes, and as soon as they leave the apartment and return to the hallway, the door would auto-close, auto-lock, and the key would be confiscated by a virtual Nenuk attendant who was virtually waiting politely in the hall (via an echo, force, and save of the PC with the key).

I know there have been several times in my own characters' lives (combined) that my PC had reason and/or need and/or authority from her own employer to check a dead person's apartment (like if the corpse is inside the building and the murderer in the process of escaping out the back way), and there was no way for anyone, even a templar, to do anything about it, and the IMMs with the authority to help, weren't available.

Definitely a couple of potentially awesome murderer-chases and detective stories completely ruined, all because we couldn't get past that damned doorman and into a locked apartment sooner than the time needed to find, hire, and train a local burglar.