No Housing!?!

[jcljules]

Ok.... I've been walking all around Allanak. And there is -no- housing. Not one apartment for rent. I've checked four apartment complexes, and I don't think there are any more. Everything is full. I would like to see some more housing built in Allanak, please? Thoughts?

[Tisiphone]

This is an IC issue.

[Lakota]

Believe me, I feel ya. In all fairness though, there are several complexes with multiple rooms in each.

The only advice I can offer is for you to hawk the CRAP out of them, check DAILY. You'll get lucky eventually and snag one - maybe even some loot too. 

[jcljules]

It just seems unrealistic for there to be NO apartments left in the entire city. There are plenty of apartment buildings and dwellings in room descriptions; why not turn them into real ones? I fail to see how House Nenyuk wouldn't build more complexes to take advantage of the demand... thats just basic economics. I think its more of an issue of the staff making more buildings than someone ICly deciding to build more.

And don't tell me that there's not enough room in Allanak; I see your point, but I see no reason why someone can't just turn a room-description apartment into a coded one. In game terms its the same number of people in the city as last year/whatever, its just that some vNPCs have turned into PCs. So shouldn't some vApartments turn into coded ones?

[Lakota]

Uhm, well...building new things can be time consuming. Not only do you have to write a description for the outside, entryway, as WELL as the hallways and rooms, but..well, you get the picture.

Staff is currently focusing on 2.0. Perhaps if we can start averaging 70-100 players a night, staff will look into expanding the amount of complexes in game.

I think the amount in game right now is pretty fair. Some people have more than one apartment in a city, for instance, and hog them. You can deal with this IC, or wait until they can't afford to pay rent on one and hop on it.

End point that Tis and I are making: you can solve your problem in an IC manner.

Good luck!

[jcljules]

Yeah, I understand that its time consuming, and I know the staff already has a lot on their plate. Its just a little frustrating, especially when I know a character who owns four different apartments. Thank you for the advice; I will continue to go out apartment hunting.

[Nyr]

I've seen a plethora of topics posted lately, and I think this is as good a place as any to offer these quick tips.
Before making a post on the General Discussion Board (except the OOC forum), here are some questions players can ask themselves:

1.  Is what I am about to ask something that I can feasibly find out in-character by either asking another character, researching, or doing it myself?
2.  Is what I am going to post about something that IS in-character information that I found out that I don't see anywhere else in documentation, helpfiles, or the like?
3.  If I use the advanced search tool to try to find information about this topic, do I see any other posts about it?

If the answer to any of the above questions is "yes," it would be best to reconsider what you are going to post.

With that said, the answer to your question IS a mix of IC and OOC. 

In-character, the available apartments are not available.  Nenyuk has all sorts of virtual real estate, virtual apartments, and the like. 
Only a very small fraction of these are made available to player characters.
Also, "basic economics" oftentimes will not apply to Zalanthas.  Every GMH is, for all intents and purposes, a monopoly.
There have been some suggestions here, and yes--this can actually be pursued entirely in-character.  It may be that you do not know where the actual apartments are at.

Out-of-character, staff is focusing more on Armageddon Reborn, but that does not mean that we are not focusing on Arm 1. 
In fact, the building moratorium on new things for Arm 1 has been lifted, and this has already been suggested by players in the Submissions Thread regarding that topic.
Its implementation will depend on a few other things that I won't discuss here.

[Lizzie]

Also the vacancies, and lack thereof, are temporary. Always. For every two characters who rent an apartment and live long enough to re-rent the same one, there are three who die before their rent is due. You're probably just catching it at that awkward moment between "rent is due", "BEEP!, and "Apartment 7: One room with a green door: available"

I know with absolute positive certainty that there have been two buildings *somewhere* in the world, that are almost always completely vacant, with multiple rooms for rent.

It's my guess, that if popularity shifts (as it usually does), and players who roll up new characters do so in that location, those vacancies will not be as prevalent, and the vacancies elsewhere will open up.

So - just kill everyone in Allanak and wait for their rents to be due. Then you'll have your pick!

[jcljules]

So - just kill everyone in Allanak and wait for their rents to be due. Then you'll have your pick!

This... this is the wisest advice I've ever received 

[Gimfalisette]

Jules, I'm starting to wonder if you ever pursue a topic of interest ICly -first-, rather than bringing it to the OOC boards right away. Note that I'm wondering this with gentle concern.

[jcljules]

I always pursue these topics ICly first. I checked six apartment buildings, asked a lot of characters about it--I always try for a RL day to find out about something ICly before I ask here, which is what I did.

Besides--this is, as Nyr said, a mix of OOC and IC. In the past I admit I've asked a lot of questions that don't belong on the OOC boards, but that was just as I was getting acclimated to the game. I've been asking far fewer Find Out IC questions; perhaps I shouldn't have asked that question about the seasoning on this board, but thats about all I can think of recently. But I will take note of what you said, and think about it in my future posts.

[staggerlee]

Actually I think Zalanthas is supposed to be in a state of perpetual housing crisis.  Most people in Nak don't have homes.
Now as much as I love affordable pc housing, wouldn't it be cool if the less the apartments remained empty the higher the rent went in all of them?

I always pursue these topics ICly first. I checked six apartment buildings, asked a lot of characters about it--I always try for a RL day to find out about something ICly before I ask here, which is what I did.

Besides--this is, as Nyr said, a mix of OOC and IC. In the past I admit I've asked a lot of questions that don't belong on the OOC boards, but that was just as I was getting acclimated to the game. I've been asking far fewer Find Out IC questions; perhaps I shouldn't have asked that question about the seasoning on this board, but thats about all I can think of recently. But I will take note of what you said, and think about it in my future posts.

I think the point there is that just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it isn't intentionally so.  Similarly, don't assume the answers will come quick and easy.
The staff are generally aware of what's going on in the game, and most things like availability of housing are intentional.

[jcljules]

If that were the case, I would gladly have an apartment. I would rather see three apartments with ridiculous pricetags than none, and everyone else renting for a normal price.

[Rahnevyn]

Asking about the possibility of more apartments being built in Allanak due to OOC overcrowding is a valid question, I think.

Unfortunately, it is not trivial to just plonk down new apartment buildings, as other people have said. Even if we weren't focusing on 2.0 (in fact there are many staff who are staying focused solely on the current game), we'd need to consider carefully before adding new apartments.

Topics we could discuss:
- Could we address this issue by making some housing in Allanak more expensive in order to reduce demand?

- In the context of a crowded city where space is limited, do you as players feel there should be an apartment in the city for every PC who wants one?

- What do you feel about limits on the number of apartments PCs can rent in one city?

- Instead of more coded apartments, what do you feel about unsecure multi-room communal dwellings that could be shared by many PCs/NPCs?

[Lizzie]

I'd rather see more of a coded enforcement of OOCly-unfair apartment-hogging. The "policies" on apartments is such that we players are asked to not rent more than one apartment in each city. ICly, there are ways around it...which can be more or less justified (it's a flimsy justification but it's strictly an IC justification, heh.) But OOCly, there is nothing preventing anyone from having one apartment in each building in each city. It -is- impossible to rent more than one in the same building..

I'd like to see that coded restriction expanded - perhaps link each building, no matter what zone they're in, by a "city flag?" So that if the building is flagged as being in Allanak, then the code will acknowledge you as a Nenyuk tenant in that city, and not allow you to rent anywhere else in that city.

On the other hand..ICly, it makes sense that a tenant might be a guest in one building, and the actual renter in another building.

However, once that tenant dies, the code allows you to continue being a guest..and a tenant is not allowed to pass off his "ownership" to someone else. Like, if the tenant moves to another city and wants his best pal to keep the apartment - and his best pal needs the ability to invite guests of his own. Which - a guest is not codedly allowed to do. So really, a guest could be the "only" tenant of an apartment, and still NEED another apartment because he's not allowed to invite guests to the first one, since he's still technically a guest. Even though his host has been dead for a game-year. As long as he keeps paying rent, he's still a guest, and still can't invite anyone else. It's really a kind of mess how things are right now.

I think once someone grabs all the strands of this web and sorts them out so they all fit properly, it won't even be an issue anymore.

[jcljules]

- Could we address this issue by making some housing in Allanak more expensive in order to reduce demand?

Yes.

- In the context of a crowded city where space is limited, do you as players feel there should be an apartment in the city for every PC who wants one?

No, but the expense should be the limiting factor; not the number of apartments. That said, I would like to see more cheap/hole-in-the-ground apartments with very very easy to pick locks. So more people should have apartments, they should just be worse apartments.

- What do you feel about limits on the number of apartments PCs can rent in one city?

I agree with Lizzie; one per city. Though maybe there should be some way to bypass this... like a license of some kind.

- Instead of more coded apartments, what do you feel about unsecure multi-room communal dwellings that could be shared by many PCs/NPCs?

What do you mean by this? This makes me think about the current coded quit-safe hovels, etc; What would be the difference? Do you mean like you'd have to pay to use them, get your own room, nobody touches your stuff? If so, this seems like a good idea. I think everyone in Arm should have -somewhere- to live, even if its a communal hovel with no lock on the door.

[flurry]

What do you feel about limits on the number of apartments PCs can rent in one city?

This is one aspect of the issue I think should perhaps be looked at.

I have no idea how big of a problem that is, though. I recall one example of a character who maintained at least three apartments for an extended period of time.  As far as I could tell, it was mainly because she could, and had the expendable coins to do it.

I'm of two minds on this, really.  On one hand, there may be good IC reasons for doing this.  On the other hand, is it good for the game if 5-10% of one city's housing could be in the hands of one character?  On the OOC level, it seems pretty inconsiderate unless it's necessary.

The cost of doing it should make it unlikely in the first place, but that doesn't always seem to be so.

[Rahnevyn]

- Instead of more coded apartments, what do you feel about unsecure multi-room communal dwellings that could be shared by many PCs/NPCs?

What do you mean by this? This makes me think about the current coded quit-safe hovels, etc; What would be the difference? Do you mean like you'd have to pay to use them, get your own room, nobody touches your stuff? If so, this seems like a good idea. I think everyone in Arm should have -somewhere- to live, even if its a communal hovel with no lock on the door.

I essentially mean the coded quit-safe hovels, but expanded a bit more. Instead of a run down one room building, I envisioned something with perhaps a communal kitchen/living area, a few small rooms separated off with a tarp, and maybe a latrine. Or just a building with one large dormitory, sort of like the Gaj. They'd be free, crappy, and totally unsecure... the kind of housing most commoners actually live in.

[jcljules]

Yes, yes, yes. Then I wildly support your idea. Especially the latrines.

[Elgiva]

I find lack of apartments very realistic. I mean, if it's hard to find an apartment irl (and sometime it is), why it should not be hard in game?

[Tallulah]

The reason why a lot of PCs rent apartments is so that they can have a place to leave their stuff behind locked doors.  Public hovels won't fix the discussed issue IMO because anything anyone tries to leave there will walk away while they're gone.

[Furious George]

I think, if the code is in place via Nenyuk holding small items and whatever is left of the old mailbox system in the taverns from ages ago, why not adjust this in a few steps?

1.  Raise the initial cost of apartments.
2.  Set up some sort of shop that will utilize the banking code, but will instead store containers of items for pcs, giving them a ticket or something to reference in balance?  Maybe charge getting it out of storage by weight?  Who really knows?  Something along these lines could work though.  And would eliminate the need for renting an apartment just for storage.
3.  Bring Nenyuk back renting out places that aren't 'coded apartments'...catering to upscale individuals with huge loot.
4.  Make a plain, bare bones apartment building, but call each apartment a 'workshop'...have it a save room with a work table and a chest that are affixed to the ground.  Put a bunch of them in a multi level building at cheap cost.  Make them save rooms but not quit rooms.
5.  Add shanty hovels here and there. 

  Hopefully nothing too heavy handed on workload, but I think it would be a good thing.

[Gimfalisette]

- Could we address this issue by making some housing in Allanak more expensive in order to reduce demand?

This would not work. The very most expensive apartments in Allanak are the ones that are constantly rented. Until recently (the last few months), the ONLY vacancies ever to be found in the city were in the absolute worst, cheapest, crappiest, most insecure apartments. This apparently has changed, with an increase in the playerbase; demand has been pushed down to the worst apartments because PCs cannot rent the expensive apartments due to availability, not price.

Tuluk is similar, but has a smaller consistent playerbase, so the housing market is not as tight there.

- In the context of a crowded city where space is limited, do you as players feel there should be an apartment in the city for every PC who wants one?

I think there should be space for every PC to, minimally, be able to rent a place with 2 or 3 friends. Apartments are used for storing items (a change of clothing, extra weapons, furniture, cask of booze, stuff the PC is holding to sell to PCs or NPCs) as well as for private socializing. They're pretty vital to the RPed and coded life of many characters.

- What do you feel about limits on the number of apartments PCs can rent in one city?

I think this would be very fair.

- Instead of more coded apartments, what do you feel about unsecure multi-room communal dwellings that could be shared by many PCs/NPCs?

Not very useful to PCs for the things that apartments are actually used for.

[Lakota]

Agree 100% with Gimf -- what she said.

[Rahnevyn]

I'm interested in feedback - keep posting.