We've been hinting at changes to the combat system for some time, we've finally got an overview that we're happy with and ready to show it to the community for a couple of reasons. One, so that you can see what may be changing and potentially prepare your character for it. And two, for your comments. We're pretty happy with this overview, but we're still hashing out exact details on certain points. We're in the heavy number crunching phase.
The goals:
1) Bring all combat styles into a rough equilibrium. Perfect balance is unlikely to ever happen, but right now two-handed is king because it's way overpowered compared to the others.
2) De-emphasize strength a little, add a bit more emphasis to agility.
3) Fix a few issues, such as "weight not mattering on attack speed".
4) Add a minimum size/weight weapon a HG can use
With that in mind here is what the new system would potentially look like:
5 styles of combat:
One-handed - only one weapon used in either EP or ES
Dual Wield - two weapons, one in EP and one in ES
Two-handed - one weapon, ETWO'd
Weapon and Shield - one weapon, one shield
Barehanded - no weapons or shield
Definitions:
Agility-based extra damage - High agility will make damage more consistently 'average'. It won't raise the cap, however. Has some ability to bypass a little bit of armor. Net result will mean high agility, low strength characters will "bounce" their blows much less often.
Strength-based - High strength will raise the maximum damage done. It will not be a flat bonus to all hits, meaning a high strength character will still have the potential of doing a lot of damage, but will sometimes not do very much.
General Combat Changes:
- Add weapon weight to calculations for speed of attacks
One-handed
- Agility based extra damage
- Minor strength based extra damage
- Offense Calculation: Weapon skill will have a large impact, small penalty if the one hand being used is ES.
- Defense Calculation: Weapon skill will have a small impact.
- Large bonus to kick, minor bonus to kick damage
- Small bonus to disarm, hack, riposte
Dual-wield
- Agility based extra damage
- Minor strength based extra damage
- Offense Calculation: Weapon skill will have a large impact, dual wield skill will have a moderate impact
- Defense Calculation: Dual wield skill will have a small impact
- Medium bonus to parry
- In case of shield-shield, small bonus to block skill for each, large bonus to bash
Two-handed
- Strength based extra damage
- Minor agility based extra damage
- Offense Calculation: Weapon skill will have a large impact, two-handed skill will have a moderate impact.
- Defense Calculation: Two-handed skill will have a moderate impact
- Additional Bonus damage based on factor of str and 2h skill
- Slower attacks
- Minor bonus to parry
Weapon and Shield
- Strength based extra damage
- Minor agility based extra damage
- Offense Calculation: Weapon skill will have a large impact, small penalty if the weapon is ES
- Defense Calculation: Shield use skill will have a small impact
- Large bonus to bash
- Increase max shield skill for heavy fighters by moderate amount, light fighter by small amount, balanced by tiny amount
- Chance to block attacks
Barehanded
- Strength and Agility based extra damage
- Offense Calculation: No bonus
- Defense Calculation: No bonus
Will there be a chance for a monk like character trope, where you prefer barehanded against weapons? Or will it always be detrimental against anyone with any time of weapon?
I really like the look of this, but I do want to ask if one-handed will get an additional related combat skill, rather than solely being weapon-skill, especially with how slow weapon skills raise I would be concerned.
YES!
Finally some clarity on the obscure combat system, so I can make logical decisions, not based on guesswork. I like this!
One-handed will still be inferior to the rest.
Bare-handed will still be inferior to the rest.
They just won't be AS bad as they used to be.
This looks really tight, I'm excited for this.
Will there be any changes to the high strength/blunt combo?
Right now certain classes can walk outta chargen with a club, etwo it and knockout, kill/rob someone at zero hours played. Any plans to make that less of a thing?
Approved. Merge code now.
Quote from: Pariah on February 14, 2023, 03:00:38 PM
Will there be any changes to the high strength/blunt combo?
Right now certain classes can walk outta chargen with a club, etwo it and knockout, kill/rob someone at zero hours played. Any plans to make that less of a thing?
There's already been a slight 'nerf' to that in that the new weapon categories generally saw bludgeoning weapons scaled down in damage dice. But a heavy combat character fresh out of chargen is still going to be able to wail on a well-established character who has 0 combat skills. We'll look a bit at stun during all this, but don't expect major changes to that specifically. This change is about the reasons above: balancing all the fighting styles, de-emphasizing strength a little, emphasizing agility a little.
I think I love all this, my only concern is that this might end up with HG's managing to get nick and graze shots, which seems a little silly.
Quote from: Hauwke on February 14, 2023, 03:18:27 PM
I think I love all this, my only concern is that this might end up with HG's managing to get nick and graze shots, which seems a little silly.
It certainly could. The theory is that not every hit is a good hit. Even someone really strong can have a grazing blow sometimes. They connected, but just barely.
Absolutely awesome. In a similar vein would crossbows get looked at too? Thanks!
I've had some ten days played stalkers, who fight every IG day, of that ten days played RL time character.
Can easily kill drov beetles, spiders and the like in that amount of time for instance.
Get just obliterated by a heavy combat type out of chargen in a spar or real battle.
Is there going to be anything in the works to balance that? I also understand I could have just fallen victim to RNG fails, but it's happened many times on my longer lived stalkers that a newb heavy combat guy will just tear me to ribbons.
Edit: Also, I think you were the staffer that answered my request about parry and branching on a stalker. Right now it's super slow to branch parry if you play a shield wielding stalker. Are you gonna do any code voodoo to help parry learn at a faster rate if you're going to utilize shield? Only reason it really even matters is because stalker branches off parry. So how it currently works you gotta wait forever to branch it, or not use your preferred fighting style (in my case shield use).
Quote from: Pariah on February 14, 2023, 03:25:09 PM
I've had some ten days played stalkers, who fight every IG day, of that ten days played RL time character.
Can easily kill drov beetles, spiders and the like in that amount of time for instance.
Get just obliterated by a heavy combat type out of chargen in a spar or real battle.
Is there going to be anything in the works to balance that? I also understand I could have just fallen victim to RNG fails, but it's happened many times on my longer lived stalkers that a newb heavy combat guy will just tear me to ribbons.
Not this change. This change is about:
1) Bring all combat styles into a rough equilibrium. Perfect balance is unlikely to ever happen, but right now two-handed is king because it's way overpowered compared to the others.
2) De-emphasize strength a little, add a bit more emphasis to agility.
3) Fix a few issues, such as "weight not mattering on attack speed".
4) Add a minimum size/weight weapon a HG can use
What you're describing is a difference in their combat skills, which is really more about a class/subclass balancing project.
Quote from: Pariah on February 14, 2023, 03:00:38 PM
Will there be any changes to the high strength/blunt combo?
Right now certain classes can walk outta chargen with a club, etwo it and knockout, kill/rob someone at zero hours played. Any plans to make that less of a thing?
Further question: will other weapon styles get a look. There's a reason that in reality the spear is the actual best weapon to use most times whereas fantasy wanks arrows and swords. But in the context of the game, I agree not all types feel or perform from the player perspective as powerfully, though riposte/hack has helped.Answered above. Hopefully later.
Quote from: Halaster on February 14, 2023, 03:27:50 PM
Quote from: Pariah on February 14, 2023, 03:25:09 PM
I've had some ten days played stalkers, who fight every IG day, of that ten days played RL time character.
Can easily kill drov beetles, spiders and the like in that amount of time for instance.
Get just obliterated by a heavy combat type out of chargen in a spar or real battle.
Is there going to be anything in the works to balance that? I also understand I could have just fallen victim to RNG fails, but it's happened many times on my longer lived stalkers that a newb heavy combat guy will just tear me to ribbons.
Not this change. This change is about:
1) Bring all combat styles into a rough equilibrium. Perfect balance is unlikely to ever happen, but right now two-handed is king because it's way overpowered compared to the others.
2) De-emphasize strength a little, add a bit more emphasis to agility.
3) Fix a few issues, such as "weight not mattering on attack speed".
4) Add a minimum size/weight weapon a HG can use
What you're describing is a difference in their combat skills, which is really more about a class/subclass balancing project.
Fair fair, at long as it's something you're going to look at. I've even considered doing raider/something with skinning subclass, just to have more power potential with my "hunters".
I don't want to mind you, I'd rather pick a subguild that gives me crafts or magick, but to be survivable against players and critters, right now it feels like you have to.
So if Agi is the floor and Str is the cap, does this possess interplay? More str and more agi slide the overall 'dps' window higher? If so that would likely make muls really scary and decidedly superior to HGs in combat, which I feel is a good thing, but is worth keeping an eye on in terms of 'how much?'
Quote from: Kryos on February 14, 2023, 03:38:00 PM
So if Agi is the floor and Str is the cap, does this possess interplay? More str and more agi slide the overall 'dps' window higher? If so that would likely make muls really scary and decidedly superior to HGs in combat, which I feel is a good thing, but is worth keeping an eye on in terms of 'how much?'
I think that's the idea of Muls honestly. They are the smarter, scarier/deadlier version of an idiot giants (Going by documentation, they are supposed to be stupid!).
Quote from: Kryos on February 14, 2023, 03:38:00 PM
So if Agi is the floor and Str is the cap, does this possess interplay? More str and more agi slide the overall 'dps' window higher? If so that would likely make muls really scary and decidedly superior to HGs in combat, which I feel is a good thing, but is worth keeping an eye on in terms of 'how much?'
Well they too are going to be subjected to the lowered bonuses because they won't get a flat + but rather widened range. I think it brings everyone into a better (to steal Halasters word) equilibrium.
I think I'm a little put off by the fact strength characters won't be able to dual wield really at all anymore, but yeah.
Quote from: Pariah on February 14, 2023, 03:41:47 PM
Quote from: Kryos on February 14, 2023, 03:38:00 PM
So if Agi is the floor and Str is the cap, does this possess interplay? More str and more agi slide the overall 'dps' window higher? If so that would likely make muls really scary and decidedly superior to HGs in combat, which I feel is a good thing, but is worth keeping an eye on in terms of 'how much?'
I think that's the idea of Muls honestly. They are the smarter, scarier/deadlier version of an idiot giants (Going by documentation, they are supposed to be stupid!).
Agreed, just think its worth noting a special eye might want to be kept on how large the resultant effect and gap is.
I also wished to note that many systems, including ye olde real life, use a 'overpower' mechanic when it comes to attack speed and weapon weight. If you're strong enough, you can force a weapon to ready position again pretty quick compared to someone who isn't. Don't know how that fits in the numbers you want to make but might help shore up HG's and dwarves if they need a little help. I guess I'm a touch worried about overcorrection on the str based races, since they are getting hit more than once here.
Quote from: Kryos on February 14, 2023, 03:38:00 PM
So if Agi is the floor and Str is the cap, does this possess interplay? More str and more agi slide the overall 'dps' window higher? If so that would likely make muls really scary and decidedly superior to HGs in combat, which I feel is a good thing, but is worth keeping an eye on in terms of 'how much?'
Yes, exactly.
Quote from: Hauwke on February 14, 2023, 03:42:38 PM
I think I'm a little put off by the fact strength characters won't be able to dual wield really at all anymore, but yeah.
Sure they can. They won't get quite the damage bonus as 2h, but they'll still be able to do it.
But yes, dual-wield
will be more geared towards agility combat than 2h.
I have a little bit of concerns, specifically regarding Half-giants. HG's are already slow as snails to swing and bringing in the changes for them to do LESS damage, and, because of the weight of their weapons, swing slower seems like a bad idea. I appreciate the approach to making the game balance, and do for the most part like some of these changes. Taking away a Half-giants main perk, because players get one shot KOd by them on occasion, does not seem like a realistic idea. Under no circumstance can I see a giant of any kind landing a nick or graze when they get their hands or weapons on you.
Quote from: Krath on February 14, 2023, 04:02:08 PM
I have a little bit of concerns, specifically regarding Half-giants. HG's are already slow as snails to swing and bringing in the changes for them to do LESS damage, and, because of the weight of their weapons, swing slower seems like a bad idea. I appreciate the approach to making the game balance, and do for the most part like some of these changes. Taking away a Half-giants main perk, because players get one shot KOd by them on occasion, does not seem like a realistic idea. Under no circumstance can I see a giant of any kind landing a nick or graze when they get their hands or weapons on you.
It's the same when a big huge physical guy punches a little skinny guy but the skinny guy slips the punch, he gets a piece of it but not 100% square muscle/fist to face.
Quote from: Kryos on February 14, 2023, 03:46:06 PM
Quote from: Pariah on February 14, 2023, 03:41:47 PM
Quote from: Kryos on February 14, 2023, 03:38:00 PM
So if Agi is the floor and Str is the cap, does this possess interplay? More str and more agi slide the overall 'dps' window higher? If so that would likely make muls really scary and decidedly superior to HGs in combat, which I feel is a good thing, but is worth keeping an eye on in terms of 'how much?'
I think that's the idea of Muls honestly. They are the smarter, scarier/deadlier version of an idiot giants (Going by documentation, they are supposed to be stupid!).
Agreed, just think its worth noting a special eye might want to be kept on how large the resultant effect and gap is.
I also wished to note that many systems, including ye olde real life, use a 'overpower' mechanic when it comes to attack speed and weapon weight. If you're strong enough, you can force a weapon to ready position again pretty quick compared to someone who isn't. Don't know how that fits in the numbers you want to make but might help shore up HG's and dwarves if they need a little help. I guess I'm a touch worried about overcorrection on the str based races, since they are getting hit more than once here.
I've always thought that our system ISN'T realistic, because of the nicks and such. If I come up and start cutting you over and over, even if they are just little flesh wounds, it's going to weaken you.
You're not going to be able to operate at 100% combat proficiency getting hit 10 times by an elf for 30 damage lets say.
My hope is that they will eventually take pain into the mix versus pure HP value. A guy who's 10/130 hp shouldn't be fighting like an olympian. He's damn near dead.
Quote from: Krath on February 14, 2023, 04:02:08 PM
I have a little bit of concerns, specifically regarding Half-giants. HG's are already slow as snails to swing and bringing in the changes for them to do LESS damage, and, because of the weight of their weapons, swing slower seems like a bad idea. I appreciate the approach to making the game balance, and do for the most part like some of these changes. Taking away a Half-giants main perk, because players get one shot KOd by them on occasion, does not seem like a realistic idea. Under no circumstance can I see a giant of any kind landing a nick or graze when they get their hands or weapons on you.
A weapon can only connect for like a quarter of inch, so not much energy is transferred, and any cut is shallow. Even when the person with the weapon is a half-giant.
The change to two handed weapon speed will impact half-giants, because currently it completely does away with all the detriments of having a low agility.
On weapon weight, you must be making some assumptions on how we would handle weapon weight impacting combat speed. How are you envisioning it?
Quote from: Pariah on February 14, 2023, 03:25:09 PM
I've had some ten days played stalkers, who fight every IG day, of that ten days played RL time character.
Can easily kill drov beetles, spiders and the like in that amount of time for instance.
Get just obliterated by a heavy combat type out of chargen in a spar or real battle.
Is there going to be anything in the works to balance that? I also understand I could have just fallen victim to RNG fails, but it's happened many times on my longer lived stalkers that a newb heavy combat guy will just tear me to ribbons.
Since this is the result of hidden skills, it made me wonder if those hidden skills going to be looked at while making the new combat system? There are circumstances where those hidden skills interact poorly with weapon skills or the world: when one raises much more quickly than another, or the hunter who manhandles dangerous game but can't fight a novice human who only fights peers at practice, etc.
tl;dr are hidden combat stats/skills/things being reworked as well? will there be hidden mechanics?
Quote from: Brokkr on February 14, 2023, 04:10:20 PM
The change to two handed weapon speed will impact half-giants, because currently it completely does away with all the detriments of having a low agility.
To expand on what Brokkr is saying here, this is one of the ways we're saying 2h is OP. It actually gives people speed bonuses so much to the point where it negates all agility penalties, even on a low agil HG. 2h is broken.
Quote from: Brokkr on February 14, 2023, 04:10:20 PM
...
On weapon weight, you must be making some assumptions on how we would handle weapon weight impacting combat speed. How are you envisioning it?
I'm wondering if we will be able to take a nap in between HG combat attacks...or will it rebalance 2H bonuses and bring attack speed more in line with dual wield/one handed/shield. Weapon weight impacting speed could mean weight relative to a characters strength/size, or it could mean a flat rate reduction.
So I'm pretty okay with combat code on Armageddon. I think it's pretty great actually.
But one of the more consistent complaints is when it comes to PvP, fast reactions and typing reigns supreme. Has there been any thought to making specifically PvP events tuned down as far as speed? Even so far as introducing actual 'rounds' where agility gives more actions or something along those lines?
Keep PvE the same, but make PvP just hardcoded to behave differently? Or would this just piss off more people than it pleased?
Will endurance or character size play into these calculations in the future?
The heft of a 50lb sword is a lot to a 180lb human, and even more to a 130lb elf, but it's probably not so significant to a 900lb half-giant?
Similarly, will wisdom ever come into play for combat? Off the top of my head, feel like it could easily influence defense to a degree in the form of anticipating an opponents attack. Or a skill like disarm, I'm sure strength and agility play a major factor but anticipating and leading an attempt seems like the purview of wisdom, at least to a degree.
Quote from: Halaster on February 14, 2023, 04:13:41 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on February 14, 2023, 04:10:20 PM
The change to two handed weapon speed will impact half-giants, because currently it completely does away with all the detriments of having a low agility.
To expand on what Brokkr is saying here, this is one of the ways we're saying 2h is OP. It actually gives people speed bonuses so much to the point where it negates all agility penalties, even on a low agil HG. 2h is broken.
Thanks Brokkr and Hal, here is how I read the statement: The weight of a weapon will direct effect how fast/slow you swing.
What I would like to know: Will the speed of attack portion of the calculation only take into account the weight of the weapon, or will it take into account the weight of the weapon relative to the wielding PCs strength and encumbrance level?
Quote from: lostinspace on February 14, 2023, 04:18:49 PM
Similarly, will wisdom ever come into play for combat? Off the top of my head, feel like it could easily influence defense to a degree in the form of anticipating an opponents attack. Or a skill like disarm, I'm sure strength and agility play a major factor but anticipating and leading an attempt seems like the purview of wisdom, at least to a degree.
I was going to post specifically with the question of whether wisdom would hopefully have some inclusion in this also!
Quote from: Krath on February 14, 2023, 04:19:52 PM
will it take into account the weight of the weapon relative to the wielding PCs strength and encumbrance level?
Yes. That's one of the things we're still hashing out is the 'how', but we are decided that: heavier weapons will be slower, however that can be mitigated by strength.
Quote from: Windstorm on February 14, 2023, 04:21:49 PM
I was going to post specifically with the question of whether wisdom would hopefully have some inclusion in this also!
No, wisdom will not have any role in direct combat. It comes into play in how it affects how much/fast you can gain skills. I personally don't see a way to put wisdom into the combat calculations without it feeling shoe-horned in.
Quote from: Halaster on February 14, 2023, 02:50:47 PM
Two-handed
- Slower attacks
Quote from: Halaster on February 14, 2023, 04:29:44 PM
Yes. That's one of the things we're still hashing out is the 'how', but we are decided that: heavier weapons will be slower, however that can be mitigated by strength.
So what's the point of this change, other then adding some bonuses to the other combat styles?
From what has been said, two handed will still be king considering most combat characters are very high strength.
EDIT: And increasing the caps will just make the problem worse. Instead of a giant hitting you for 100 hp, he'll be hitting for double that.
I like these. I hope that the overall 'level' ends up closer to current two-handed than current dual-wield so that new PCs don't get more fragile than they already are.
Quote from: Tranquil on February 14, 2023, 04:35:02 PM
Quote from: Halaster on February 14, 2023, 02:50:47 PM
Two-handed
- Slower attacks
Quote from: Halaster on February 14, 2023, 04:29:44 PM
Yes. That's one of the things we're still hashing out is the 'how', but we are decided that: heavier weapons will be slower, however that can be mitigated by strength.
So what's the point of this change, other then adding some bonuses to the other combat styles?
From what has been said, two handed will still be king considering most combat characters are very high strength.
EDIT: And increasing the caps will just make the problem worse. Instead of a giant hitting you for 100 hp, he'll be hitting for double that.
Two discreet conversations. Two handed will be slower, due to a change in the two handed skill. Full stop.
Weight will have a new impact on combat speed.
Two different things.
Quote from: Halaster on February 14, 2023, 04:30:51 PM
Quote from: Windstorm on February 14, 2023, 04:21:49 PM
I was going to post specifically with the question of whether wisdom would hopefully have some inclusion in this also!
No, wisdom will not have any role in direct combat. It comes into play in how it affects how much/fast you can gain skills. I personally don't see a way to put wisdom into the combat calculations without it feeling shoe-horned in.
Staff finally confirms Wisdom is a dump stat. :P
Celves have always come with the warning of "don't play these if you want to be good at fighting." Do you think this change will be enough that celves could reasonably be on par with humans and dwarves?
Quote from: Lutagar on February 14, 2023, 05:35:05 PM
Celves have always come with the warning of "don't play these if you want to be good at fighting." Do you think this change will be enough that celves could reasonably be on par with humans and dwarves?
It feels like this is a huge nerf to Strength based races (Dwarves/HGs/Muls) and a bonus to everyone else. Will there be extensive UATing prior to it's roll out?
Quote from: Krath on February 14, 2023, 06:31:25 PM
Quote from: Lutagar on February 14, 2023, 05:35:05 PM
Celves have always come with the warning of "don't play these if you want to be good at fighting." Do you think this change will be enough that celves could reasonably be on par with humans and dwarves?
It feels like this is a huge nerf to Strength based races (Dwarves/HGs/Muls) and a bonus to everyone else. Will there be extensive UATing prior to it's roll out?
I don't think this is a bad thing at all, Dwarves/hgs/muls are like the 'meta' combat race and I think all races should have their own niche in combat.
I agree with you 100%, however, this feels to me, which is just an opinion, like it is making all of the races equal, rather than having their own niche and that does not set well with me. Why not take it a step further and just allow one race to be selected if we are trying to make everything equal, that would be a much easier item to code.
Currently, on an OOC level, unless I am playing a Half-giant, Elves always have been the scariest race to me due to their speed, light hits, and poison. I could have a maxed out <insert combo here> and still would do everything I can to avoid that elf smoke.
Same thing with Dwarves, HGs and Murder Muls. Humans and breeds, do not do anything great, just everything passable.
I think it's more about making it less instant win for some races versus others in a pure combat situation.
Sure there are poisons and magick, but they all require foresight.
If a 20 day dude runs into a two day half giant, he shouldn't instantly lose after carving up the giant five times to the one time the giant connects and knocks him cold.
Based on how it is written, you will see a majority of combat based PCs playing elves because of the huge advantages they will get, essentially always doing max min damage. Huge win for them, and they will become the meta. Id bet the mortgage on that.
Quote from: Krath on February 14, 2023, 07:27:32 PM
Based on how it is written, you will see a majority of combat based PCs playing elves because of the huge advantages they will get, essentially always doing max min damage. Huge win for them, and they will become the meta. Id bet the mortgage on that.
probably not, even if agility became more useful than strength celves would still limited by not being able to ride or wear armor without dying.
as for humans - i really don't see the problem with them getting buffed vs dwarves. seems like the only people really losing out on this are hgs and dwarves.
We are actually re-creating the niche.
Half-giants using 2-handed can attack almost as fast as elves, right now. So think 2-handed having the same massive hits, but being at the same speed as weapon/shield.
Quote from: Krath on February 14, 2023, 07:27:32 PM
Based on how it is written, you will see a majority of combat based PCs playing elves because of the huge advantages they will get, essentially always doing max min damage. Huge win for them, and they will become the meta. Id bet the mortgage on that.
Since delves are limited slot availability, I don't see a problem. And if a player decides to make celves, then that's great because it's putting player population back into the cities. Plus, if there's any race/player to get the ball rolling on inner city drama, it's definitely going to be celves since, ya know, that's pretty much all they're allowed to be xD
Quote from: Brokkr on February 14, 2023, 07:33:16 PM
We are actually re-creating the niche.
Half-giants using 2-handed can attack almost as fast as elves, right now. So think 2-handed having the same massive hits, but being at the same speed as weapon/shield.
Except also with the insinuation that they might get a bad roll and do 4 damage on a 30second attack speed.
A few players being vocal about a race has never made a perceived nerf so large. Obviously we will see, but recent history shows testing is not a strong suit of releases.
Combat has been broken and abusable by folks for wayyyy too long in my opinion.
I welcome any change that makes it better.
Quote from: Lutagar on February 14, 2023, 07:31:01 PM
Quote from: Krath on February 14, 2023, 07:27:32 PM
Based on how it is written, you will see a majority of combat based PCs playing elves because of the huge advantages they will get, essentially always doing max min damage. Huge win for them, and they will become the meta. Id bet the mortgage on that.
probably not, even if agility became more useful than strength celves would still limited by not being able to ride or wear armor without dying.
Without getting into mechanics and getting another post moderated, I see how you would think that, and I disagree.
I mean the counter argument would be, why doesn't strength factor into attack speed? Weapons are heavy, and the lighter something feels, the faster you can wield it.
But, most of all, it will be nice to see some more diversity in combat characters instead of everyone doing the same thing, being prioritizing strength and etwoing.
Quote from: Riev on February 14, 2023, 08:04:00 PM
Obviously we will see, but recent history shows testing is not a strong suit of releases.
With this in mind, will there be any test server where players can try out these changes or will it just drop into the game live?
If it does drop live, and a bug/imbalance causes my PC to die to some creature they've killed hundreds of times before, will that be a suitable situation for a resurrection request?
Staff: will there be any change to the relationship between agility and defense? Or will that remain as-is?
Quote from: roughneck on February 14, 2023, 08:44:46 PM
I mean the counter argument would be, why doesn't strength factor into attack speed? Weapons are heavy, and the lighter something feels, the faster you can wield it.
This is not even a counter argument, but truth. Strength SHOULD factor into attack speed. Your strength score, relative to your weapon weight, should affect your swing speed. Weapon weight should not directly affect your swing speed, but a combination of your coordination (Agility) and strength relative to the weight of the weapon.
Would staff be willing to tell us, with specifics, what goes into the mechanics of swing speed when they have decided on that?
Quote from: Krath on February 14, 2023, 08:57:08 PM
Quote from: roughneck on February 14, 2023, 08:44:46 PM
I mean the counter argument would be, why doesn't strength factor into attack speed? Weapons are heavy, and the lighter something feels, the faster you can wield it.
This is not even a counter argument, but truth. Strength SHOULD factor into attack speed. Your strength score, relative to your weapon weight, should affect your swing speed. Weapon weight should not directly affect your swing speed, but a combination of your coordination (Agility) and strength relative to the weight of the weapon.
Would staff be willing to tell us, with specifics, what goes into the mechanics of swing speed when they have decided on that?
Let's say that you have a natural swing speed of once per 60 seconds.
If you have a weapon that weighs 20 pounds, how should it affect your swing speed?
If you have a weapon that weighs 5 pounds, how should it affect your swing speed?
If you have a strength roll of "exceptional", how should it affect the heavy weapon?
If you have a strength roll of "below average", how should it affect the heavy weapon?
If you have a strength roll of "exceptional", how should it affect the light weapon?
If you have a strength roll of "below average", how should it affect the light weapon?
Could you follow up on the idea and expand on it, and give some rough estimates to the example above?
Quote from: lostinspace on February 14, 2023, 08:47:04 PM
Quote from: Riev on February 14, 2023, 08:04:00 PM
Obviously we will see, but recent history shows testing is not a strong suit of releases.
With this in mind, will there be any test server where players can try out these changes or will it just drop into the game live?
If it does drop live, and a bug/imbalance causes my PC to die to some creature they've killed hundreds of times before, will that be a suitable situation for a resurrection request?
Based on what they aren't working on RIGHT NOW, I would assume this change isn't going to make your character die to a spider or whatever.
Those invisible dude versus spider or however it works aren't changing.
They are just trying to balance out weapons and weapon styles. The only thing they have volunteered is that 2handing currently lets slow as giants attack as fast as someone who isn't a giant, but giants hit like mack trucks so it's an unfair advantage.
If anything it might make high strength fights with wildlife longer, due to nicks and small hits. But who knows, maybe those with high agility and strength will finish that spider off faster? I'm excited to find out!
Quote from: mansa on February 14, 2023, 09:14:55 PM
Quote from: Krath on February 14, 2023, 08:57:08 PM
Quote from: roughneck on February 14, 2023, 08:44:46 PM
I mean the counter argument would be, why doesn't strength factor into attack speed? Weapons are heavy, and the lighter something feels, the faster you can wield it.
This is not even a counter argument, but truth. Strength SHOULD factor into attack speed. Your strength score, relative to your weapon weight, should affect your swing speed. Weapon weight should not directly affect your swing speed, but a combination of your coordination (Agility) and strength relative to the weight of the weapon.
Would staff be willing to tell us, with specifics, what goes into the mechanics of swing speed when they have decided on that?
Let's say that you have a natural swing speed of once per 60 seconds.
If you have a weapon that weighs 20 pounds, how should it affect your swing speed?
If you have a weapon that weighs 5 pounds, how should it affect your swing speed?
If you have a strength roll of "exceptional", how should it affect the heavy weapon?
If you have a strength roll of "below average", how should it affect the heavy weapon?
If you have a strength roll of "exceptional", how should it affect the light weapon?
If you have a strength roll of "below average", how should it affect the light weapon?
Could you follow up on the idea and expand on it, and give some rough estimates to the example above?
I can't really, it's just a thought.
I will give the response in two formats:
Format 1:
IRL, Getting hit by a 20lbs sledge would end the fight, no matter the strength etc.
That being said, swing and recovery would be slower.
On to the heavy weapon, High strength should make it swing just as fast as the lighter weapon
High strength should not make you able to swing it faster then the heavy weapon, you have a swing speed and recovery limit. You can only be so fast, things can slow you down.
You know, If it was me, I would not be touching swing speed in strength v weapon weight, I would have it effect skill.
If the weapon is x verses strength then you lose skill.
Just as you would IRL, A 105 lbs champion female fencer would look clumsy AF trying to use a 20lbs 6 foot long blade, no matter what her agility is.
Format 2:
Before I get into my example we need some baselines:
1. Weapon Weights
a. Light weapon weight = 1 stone (Mansa 5 lb wpn)
b. Average Weapon weight = 2 stones
c. Heavy weapon weights = 3 stones (Mansa 20lb Weapon)
2. Swing Speed
a. 100%
b. 75%
c. 50%
3. Strength/Agility Scale 10 - 18
10 = poor
11 = Below Average
12 = average
13 = above average
14 = good
15 = very good
16 = extremely good
17 = exceptional
18 = AI
Scenario 1:
1. If you have a 20 lbs weapon, standard swing speed should be 50% based on average (12) human strength/agility. As your strength and agility goes up, or down, you would receive negative or positive adjustments to your swing up to 100%, not lower than 25%.
2. If you have a 5 lb weapon, standard swing speed should be 100% based on average (12) human strength/Agility. As your strength and agility go up attack swing is maxed at 100%. As your strength and agility down, you would receive negative adjustments down to 25% for the poor soul who rolls Poor strength and Agility.
Edited to add disclaimer: This is just an example of what I was thinking, clearly the 2 point difference wouldn't be a negative 75% for swing speed on the light weapons example
Neat! About time we tried something new with combat.
It'd be cool to see skills like Riposte do well/better with one handed weapons, things like that.
Look forward to playtesting it.
Quote from: Veselka on February 14, 2023, 10:01:34 PM
Neat! About time we tried something new with combat.
It'd be cool to see skills like Riposte do well/better with one handed weapons, things like that.
Look forward to playtesting it.
One handed is noted as getting bonuses to kick, riposte and disarm.
Quote from: Hauwke on February 14, 2023, 10:04:36 PM
Quote from: Veselka on February 14, 2023, 10:01:34 PM
Neat! About time we tried something new with combat.
It'd be cool to see skills like Riposte do well/better with one handed weapons, things like that.
Look forward to playtesting it.
One handed is noted as getting bonuses to kick, riposte and disarm.
Ah, I missed that. There was a lot to read there. Thanks!
I haven't read through all the responses, just the initial post.
I'm certainly concerned if attack speed remains the same while agility buffs damage.
Right now it's not uncommon to see someone attacking four to six times faster then everyone else. Which can make them deadly even with damage how it stands, if these sort of combos get just damage boosts .... It's going to be the exact opposite problem of strength dominating combat and now agility well.
For one-handed: Would it not make more sense to give a moderate bonus to defense based on weapon skill?
With it's bonus to riposte, disarm, hack and kick, it could become competitive with the other three styles (2H, DW, S&B), serving as the agility-based defensive option that trades up the additional damage of dual wield and two-handed, as well as the extra 'tank' of sword and shield, in exchange for superior control of the fight (counter attacks, disarms, etc). It would also mean merchant and merchant-light classes could have a little more defenses, without giving them additional offense.
Dual wield: I notice shield-shield is listed there. Is this going to be something considered to be acceptable going forward? Can we just roll around with two shields out and not get punished for it, now?
Two-handed: Why does two-handed get an additional beneficial damage calculation and dual wield does not? Should dual wield not also get an additional damage increased based on the dual wield skill and agility? (- Additional Bonus damage based on factor of str and 2h skill)
Bare handed: Will being bare handed still leave characters (PC and NPC alike) comically vulnerable to being massacred in seconds by people armed with weapons? Or will this be toned down to a disadvantage, rather than immediate mantis head? Because it's kind of asinine we have people standing in bars with their two-handed swords wielded, but RPing like they're hanging around eating and drinking, even hugging and kissing, but also reasonable, considering even a 50+ day warrior could be decimated in moments by relative nobodies, or the latest suicide dwarf clubber with an ooc grudge.
It'd be nice if dual wield, shield use, single handed and two handed were tactical choices and having combinations in your team made a meaningful difference, but based on what's on offer, even with slower attacks, it still looks like max str/2h is going to be king of the hill (or kill, I guess?) going forward.
Quote from: Brokkr on February 14, 2023, 04:10:20 PM
A weapon can only connect for like a quarter of inch, so not much energy is transferred, and any cut is shallow. Even when the person with the weapon is a half-giant.
The change to two handed weapon speed will impact half-giants, because currently it completely does away with all the detriments of having a low agility.
On weapon weight, you must be making some assumptions on how we would handle weapon weight impacting combat speed. How are you envisioning it?
I understand if you want to have a particular game balance, or produce a particular cinematic view of combat. In reality, even a short lever in the hands of a strong and or massive person is amazingly effective.
If the goal is simulation, getting hit anywhere with almost anything by a half giant should be a traumatic event.
In an SCA unit combat I got a simulated poleaxe head caught in the tabard of a guy I was fighting. I panicked and jerked my weapon trying to clear it. I threw the other man, in sixty pounds of SCA armor, and barely missed the nearby oak tree.
In another tournament I was getting my ass whipped in a paired halberd fight, when I tried a German winding technqiue from a 15th century fechtbook. My opponent blocked what was essentially a rotating version of a one inch punch. In doing so, I broke one of the long bones in his gauntleted hand. I didnt hit it directly. I just hit the haft he had a grip on.
One afternoon we were cutting tatami mats and the cheaper analogs, 2 liter bottles filled with water. There was a debate about whether good form could allow a bottle to be torn or otherwise destroyed with a bokken, rather than a steel blade. It turns out that our heavier bokken out of ironwood and UHMW will allow you to compress a bottle fast enough that the cap will explode off, before the hanging rope breaks. But, only if your form is very clean and you weigh on the heavier end of the scale.
It's not about reality, it's about game balance.
Right now a half giant can attack two handed faster than an elf.
Two-handed already gets additional strength damage. What is being said is that it would maintain it. Dual wield double dips on strength bonus currently, and would double dip on agility bonus (both attacks get it), so especially with removal of speed 2-handed needs the extra damage to be competitive on a DPS basis.
As for weapon weight influencing speed, it is unlikely to be anything like what anyone has posted. Modern combat systems in things like MMOs use percentages to fine tune DPS, and it really looks like a lot of the ideas think we utilize something like that. We do not. This combat system predates all the MMOs. Not saying they aren't good ideas, just saying they will not really fit what we have.
I am hyped. And thank you, Halaster/Shabago/Brokkr/All staff in on this for showing it and taking feedback.
Quote from: Brokkr on February 14, 2023, 10:44:37 PM
Two-handed already gets additional strength damage. What is being said is that it would maintain it. Dual wield double dips on strength bonus currently, and would double dip on agility bonus (both attacks get it), so especially with removal of speed 2-handed needs the extra damage to be competitive on a DPS basis.
As for weapon weight influencing speed, it is unlikely to be anything like what anyone has posted. Modern combat systems in things like MMOs use percentages to fine tune DPS, and it really looks like a lot of the ideas think we utilize something like that. We do not. This combat system predates all the MMOs. Not saying they aren't good ideas, just saying they will not really fit what we have.
I have a few of questions.
1. What Problem are we trying to solve by implementing this change?
2. What is the specific desired outcome/end state you are looking for with this change?
3. Will you be posting specifics of what effects weapon speed, and how it effects it, so, we as the community, can make the best decision for how we want to tailor our pcs?
The reason I am asking is for the player base to fully understand the intent and end goal so we can constructively collaborate on the inputs together. Yes, I will have follow up questions to your answers as a heads up, not to be bullish or anything, but to understand the boundaries of the box we are all playing in.
Quote from: Krath on February 14, 2023, 11:19:09 PM
1. What Problem are we trying to solve by implementing this change?
2. What is the specific desired outcome/end state you are looking for with this change?
3. Will you be posting specifics of what effects weapon speed, and how it effects it, so, we as the community, can make the best decision for how we want to tailor our pcs?
The reason I am asking is for the player base to fully understand the intent and end goal so we can constructively collaborate on the inputs together. Yes, I will have follow up questions to your answers as a heads up, not to be bullish or anything, but to understand the boundaries of the box we are all playing in.
It's in the original post:
Quote from: Halaster on February 14, 2023, 02:50:47 PM
...We're pretty happy with this overview, but we're still hashing out exact details on certain points. We're in the heavy number crunching phase.
The goals:
1) Bring all combat styles into a rough equilibrium. Perfect balance is unlikely to ever happen, but right now two-handed is king because it's way overpowered compared to the others.
2) De-emphasize strength a little, add a bit more emphasis to agility.
3) Fix a few issues, such as "weight not mattering on attack speed".
4) Add a minimum size/weight weapon a HG can use
Maybe I'm just unlucky. But this "half giants attack faster then an elf two handed" seems outright false.
From what I've seen. AVERAGE attack, is about once every fifteen seconds. Ranging from 2-3 seconds on up past thirty seconds between attacks.
Making this slower ... Would be awful. Especially when half giants already have such troubles to hit as well.
I've only played like one half giant I think, and he walked out the gate and two shot a scrab with a club. Sure it took a minute for those hits but he did it and he was etwoing.
Now this was YEARS AGO, but even I was like WTF?
I don't think Nerfing HGs is gonna be a major thing to worry about, specifically if their penalty from agility wasn't calculated correctly while two handing.
Not fixing that would be like saying, we know it's a bug and not working correctly, oh well.
Staff, would you be able to take a look at learning rates / fail conditions while you're doing this work?
Two outcomes I'd hope for specifically:
(1) Ensure that every style gains offense, defense, and weapon skill at approximately the same rate when sparring vs every other style. (Assuming equivalent mojo--e.g. heavy vs heavy, similar skill levels, whatever.)
Currently there seem to be training advantages to specific stance choices and I don't want to see naive players like myself suck because it took us years to, e.g., figure out this one weird trick. (q.v. https://armageddon.org/request/view.php?id=114810)
(2) Remove any advantage to getting more than 1-2 failures of a given combat skill within a learning interval. In short, please remove the incentive to spam kick/bash and to get lots of weapon misses (or hits) for those sweet gainz.
Crafters can gain skill at the maximum possible rate without ripping dozens of clothlengths. Allowing faster combat skill gain via more and spammier fighting is just a bad incentive.
Note that I'm not asking for a faster maximum progression! I'm asking for you to equalize skill gain rates between folks who miss (e.g.) 5 attacks per hour and folks who miss 20 attacks per hour.
(Overall this looks pretty great, btw.)
Quote from: lostinspace on February 14, 2023, 08:47:04 PM
will there be any test server where players can try out these changes or will it just drop into the game live?
I will set up something for invited players to help test with yes.
Quote from: Krath on February 14, 2023, 08:57:08 PM
Would staff be willing to tell us, with specifics, what goes into the mechanics of swing speed when they have decided on that?
Weapon weight is going to be factored into your attack speed. Strength will help mitigate that. The exact calculations haven't been settled on yet, but yes, strength is going to help.
Quote from: creeper386 on February 14, 2023, 11:48:36 PM
Maybe I'm just unlucky. But this "half giants attack faster then an elf two handed" seems outright false.
We should clarify:
"half giants with high 2h skill can possibly attack can faster than an elf".
The point we're making is that 2h gives a speed bonus when no other style does. And it's so over the top that it totally negates the poor agility of a HG. We're not so much focusing on making it worse for HG's as we were using that as an extreme example of the imbalance of the 2h system.
Quote from: Brytta Léofa on February 15, 2023, 12:42:56 AM
Staff, would you be able to take a look at learning rates / fail conditions while you're doing this work?
No. That's called scope creep and we're not going to look at that in
this project. I think it's something we should look at in general, but it would be after this.
This change, overall, looks pretty cool.
The only thing I really have to say about it is a big thank you to staff for the transparency coming with the change.
Even after 15 years, I barely understand the combat code beyond always trying to fail at each of my skills every game day.
Oh. Nice.
The change to strength and agility damage calculation is an interesting change. Its a nice viablility bonus to elves but the real winners are muls and humans since their balanced stats raised both the min-max damage respectively. I like this aspect of the change.
This may potentially make overall skill more important than just stats as the +dam bonuses weapon/offense skill (may or may not) give become more noticable as the character improves, since it won't be overshadowed by the ridiculous amounts of flat damage that comes from high strength characters currently.
As for combat speed, I still think that past the first round, combat in this game is just way too fast for its own good. This is most evident when you are travelling in a small group and there is often no chance to jump into the fight bfeore its over. There needs to be a big difference between winning a fight effectively and being able to effectively kill in a fight.
The max combat speeds we see today shouldn't be attainable without a combination(not just one) of factors at really optimal levels; these would include weaponskill, weapon weight, agility, spice, magick and possibly race.
With those thoughts in mind: e-twoing should still be king of winning fights, but not great at killing. This means it would have good defense/parry and offense bonuses. Strength based damage is good and agility based damage should be moderately good as well. But it should be much slower to compensate. Dual wielding should have offense bonuses comparable or slight better than etwoing but its defense/parry bonus should be small or non existant compared to etwoing. Alternatively, shield use should have defense and parry bonuses compariable or slightly better than etwoing and very minor offense bonuses in comparion to etwoing, non-existant on off hand. Both dual wielding and shield use should both have more normalized attack speeds compared to etwoing.
Again past the initial attack round, if combat is slowed, insta flee should be looked at and given an appropriate pre and post skill use delay which would be reduced by skill but not completely. Additionally high watch+flee skill should allow you to determine where the person will most likely run to, before they do so, allowing them to chase more effectively or plan a tactical bash better. This makes the game less about player reaction/typing time and more choice and skills. But I digress to avoid scope creep.
In short, I really hope that even the lightest of shivs will slow a characters atttack speed once weapon weight is added. :) Finally if Armor pen becomes a thing based on agility, then I would recommend the chance of being reeled/reel locked should increase based on strength/damage as a percentage of total health inflicted per strike.
Pretty cool proposed changes @ staff!
From my playtime with heavy combat classes, they seem to receive a boost to their strength. I know this because in the past it's been explained that 'AI' stats are impossible to roll and have to be modified.
Will those boosts be split up between strength/agility now that both are a viable approach to combat?
Quote from: lostinspace on February 15, 2023, 07:22:37 PMWill those boosts be split up between strength/agility
ak) Quick Raider
al) Stronk Raider
am) Good Raider
I mean I'm half serious.
One more thoughts:
-shield shouldn't be focused on strength but a modest combination of both strength and agility equally. Allowing any combination of stats to have success with it, whether it be a giant with a great shield, or a halfelf with rapier and buckler it should be very viable to both.
Lastly, I wanted to mention that I believe the fact that you needed to fight things that were around your level to learn has really impacted the game in some positive but also some negative ways. Particularly if you are like me who prefers to be indie but like to play elves or character that don't travel to remote unknown locations then finding adaquete training sometimes feels impossible.
With agility becoming more useful, I would like to propose wisdon be changed to also significantly increase the range of lower level fights your character can still learn from in combat. This in combination with faster learning will make this a very enticing stat for indies or civilization bound characters with no one to train with.
New combat system initial preliminary coding is done. There's tweaking to be done, settings to adjust, knobs to play with it. I have reached out to 12 players who are going to help playtest it once it's done. Probably in about one to two weeks I'll have a testport available to them and then will unleash them on it. How long testing will last, I'm not sure. However long it takes, really. I -expect- it to probably take 2-4 weeks, but we'll see.
Quote from: Halaster on February 15, 2023, 09:40:24 AM
Quote from: creeper386 on February 14, 2023, 11:48:36 PM
Maybe I'm just unlucky. But this "half giants attack faster then an elf two handed" seems outright false.
We should clarify:
"half giants with high 2h skill can possibly attack can faster than an elf".
The point we're making is that 2h gives a speed bonus when no other style does. And it's so over the top that it totally negates the poor agility of a HG. We're not so much focusing on making it worse for HG's as we were using that as an extreme example of the imbalance of the 2h system.
Newest reply made me come back and really want to respond to this. Two handed with a half giant, with not bad agility, averages like four attacks a minute. Way way slower then anything I've ever seen in any other style.
If that gets slower, that's probably a problem.
Quote from: creeper386 on February 22, 2023, 03:43:24 AM
Quote from: Halaster on February 15, 2023, 09:40:24 AM
Quote from: creeper386 on February 14, 2023, 11:48:36 PM
Maybe I'm just unlucky. But this "half giants attack faster then an elf two handed" seems outright false.
We should clarify:
"half giants with high 2h skill can possibly attack can faster than an elf".
The point we're making is that 2h gives a speed bonus when no other style does. And it's so over the top that it totally negates the poor agility of a HG. We're not so much focusing on making it worse for HG's as we were using that as an extreme example of the imbalance of the 2h system.
Newest reply made me come back and really want to respond to this. Two handed with a half giant, with not bad agility, averages like four attacks a minute. Way way slower then anything I've ever seen in any other style.
If that gets slower, that's probably a problem.
All due respect, I'd listen to the guy who actually can see the code versus a player who just plays with it.
Quote from: creeper386 on February 22, 2023, 03:43:24 AM
Newest reply made me come back and really want to respond to this. Two handed with a half giant, with not bad agility, averages like four attacks a minute. Way way slower then anything I've ever seen in any other style.
Is that with advanced/master two-handed?
Quote from: Pariah on February 22, 2023, 03:53:08 AM
All due respect, I'd listen to the guy who actually can see the code versus a player who just plays with it.
Sometimes staff don't play enough to know though, especially all the corner cases.
Quote from: creeper386 on February 22, 2023, 03:43:24 AM
Quote from: Halaster on February 15, 2023, 09:40:24 AM
Quote from: creeper386 on February 14, 2023, 11:48:36 PM
Maybe I'm just unlucky. But this "half giants attack faster then an elf two handed" seems outright false.
We should clarify:
"half giants with high 2h skill can possibly attack can faster than an elf".
The point we're making is that 2h gives a speed bonus when no other style does. And it's so over the top that it totally negates the poor agility of a HG. We're not so much focusing on making it worse for HG's as we were using that as an extreme example of the imbalance of the 2h system.
Newest reply made me come back and really want to respond to this. Two handed with a half giant, with not bad agility, averages like four attacks a minute. Way way slower then anything I've ever seen in any other style.
If that gets slower, that's probably a problem.
Bolded part is sort of impossible. Unless you are comparing different characters. There is all the calculations for how long to next attack and then at the very end, for two handed only, there is a reduction based on skill.
I'm saying there is no way a half giant etwoing, when the attacks come averaging about 15 seconds a piece, which I've checked are pretty consistant dual wielding two, come way slower then any other character with other skills.
Etwoing half giants aren't faster then other races.
Quote from: creeper386 on February 22, 2023, 02:43:43 PM
I'm saying there is no way a half giant etwoing, when the attacks come averaging about 15 seconds a piece, which I've checked are pretty consistant dual wielding two, come way slower then any other character with other skills.
Etwoing half giants aren't faster then other races.
I'm super mad about the half-giant thing.
Moze had shit agility and I counted it... 45seconds between some swings.
Now you want to tell me I MIGHT only do 5 damage on that swing?
But... at Master levels of two handed... I'm telling you it would not matter. Its like I'm swinging as fast as anyone else with two handed.
Quote from: Pariah on February 22, 2023, 03:53:08 AM
Quote from: creeper386 on February 22, 2023, 03:43:24 AM
Quote from: Halaster on February 15, 2023, 09:40:24 AM
Quote from: creeper386 on February 14, 2023, 11:48:36 PM
Maybe I'm just unlucky. But this "half giants attack faster then an elf two handed" seems outright false.
We should clarify:
"half giants with high 2h skill can possibly attack can faster than an elf".
The point we're making is that 2h gives a speed bonus when no other style does. And it's so over the top that it totally negates the poor agility of a HG. We're not so much focusing on making it worse for HG's as we were using that as an extreme example of the imbalance of the 2h system.
Newest reply made me come back and really want to respond to this. Two handed with a half giant, with not bad agility, averages like four attacks a minute. Way way slower then anything I've ever seen in any other style.
If that gets slower, that's probably a problem.
All due respect, I'd listen to the guy who actually can see the code versus a player who just plays with it.
All due respect but it's not uncommon to look at code and go, "this is how it works." And then find out later that there was some other impact, unintended behavior, or it was interpreted incorrectly.
Quote from: Riev on February 22, 2023, 02:48:49 PM
Quote from: creeper386 on February 22, 2023, 02:43:43 PM
I'm saying there is no way a half giant etwoing, when the attacks come averaging about 15 seconds a piece, which I've checked are pretty consistant dual wielding two, come way slower then any other character with other skills.
Etwoing half giants aren't faster then other races.
I'm super mad about the half-giant thing.
Moze had shit agility and I counted it... 45seconds between some swings.
Now you want to tell me I MIGHT only do 5 damage on that swing?
But... at Master levels of two handed... I'm telling you it would not matter. Its like I'm swinging as fast as anyone else with two handed.
It is mostly about averages, as that is what you use to determine something like DPS.
Yes, very long waits are possible currently, given the right conditions. But on average the waits are shorter and the floor is lower, and hit more often.
The comparison would be like a Half-giant 2-handed vs an average agility (not AI, lol) elf dual wielding, and how fast they attack on average. Not the HG vs the elf both 2handing...as the elf will get the same benefit the HG does and attack on average faster.
It is fairly complex and unlikely that most folks know what goes into the current attack speed calculations, thus Halaster setting up a test port.
How much attention is being given to how /mobs/ will fight? If it turns out a tarantula can get six hits in while we wait for our second two-handed one, that can be an expensive lesson to learn.
I mean, your two handed delay would be the same as your weapon + shield delay. So I am not sure of the point of the question. The change would be to make two handed weapons take as long as a weapon + shield, which against a tarantula would be the same as dual wielding as well.
I think he means:
Do NPCs/Beasts use stance skills like dual wield or two handed then they make an attack, and thusly will be affected by these changes? Because Mob stats are WAY different from PC stats and that could be... a think to look out ofr.
Quote from: Riev on February 22, 2023, 04:45:04 PM
I think he means:
Do NPCs/Beasts use stance skills like dual wield or two handed then they make an attack, and thusly will be affected by these changes? Because Mob stats are WAY different from PC stats and that could be... a think to look out ofr.
Not if they don't use weapons, no. They do use strength and agility, though, so they'll be affected the same by those.
Quote from: Riev on February 22, 2023, 04:45:04 PM
I think he means:
Do NPCs/Beasts use stance skills like dual wield or two handed then they make an attack, and thusly will be affected by these changes? Because Mob stats are WAY different from PC stats and that could be... a think to look out ofr.
Yeah. As far as I can tell this change is mostly directed towards PVP balance (and fighting gith) as that's where weapon vs weapon combat happens. But mostly deadly combat in Armageddon isn't happening between players. I'm just concerned that any changes towards PC combat will have negative, possibly unforeseen effects on PVE combat.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 22, 2023, 05:49:18 PM
Quote from: Riev on February 22, 2023, 04:45:04 PM
I think he means:
Do NPCs/Beasts use stance skills like dual wield or two handed then they make an attack, and thusly will be affected by these changes? Because Mob stats are WAY different from PC stats and that could be... a think to look out ofr.
Yeah. As far as I can tell this change is mostly directed towards PVP balance (and fighting gith) as that's where weapon vs weapon combat happens. But mostly deadly combat in Armageddon isn't happening between players. I'm just concerned that any changes towards PC combat will have negative, possibly unforeseen effects on PVE combat.
That's why we've reached out to 11 players who are gonna help playtest on a test server.
Quote from: Riev on February 22, 2023, 02:48:49 PM
Quote from: creeper386 on February 22, 2023, 02:43:43 PM
I'm saying there is no way a half giant etwoing, when the attacks come averaging about 15 seconds a piece, which I've checked are pretty consistant dual wielding two, come way slower then any other character with other skills.
Etwoing half giants aren't faster then other races.
I'm super mad about the half-giant thing.
Moze had shit agility and I counted it... 45seconds between some swings.
Now you want to tell me I MIGHT only do 5 damage on that swing?
But... at Master levels of two handed... I'm telling you it would not matter. Its like I'm swinging as fast as anyone else with two handed.
My main concern with the changes are bolded. A half-giant/Mul doing 5 damage per hit, I disagree with. We live in a world where everyone wants to be on equal footing, however, this is a fantasy game...Fantasy. Armageddon is a harsh world, if you get hit by a Giant or Mul, or anything with significantly higher strength than you, you should not be grazed for 5 hps.
If the issue is around ETWO being OP, Nerf ETWO. How this got into a damage nerfing for HGs Muls etc, i do not know. Strength is just that Strength. If the complaint is Strength is too OP, either NERF strength or Update Agility.
Update:
Testing is still ongoing. Some of the playtesters and I are running lots of tests, tweaking, testing, tweaking. I think we're getting close...
I was thinking of rolling up another character for the hungover mornings in Colombia next week. I assume all these changes will just be behind the scenes and not something I'll be kicking myself for not waiting for?
Quote from: Pariah on March 20, 2023, 04:34:30 AM
I was thinking of rolling up another character for the hungover mornings in Colombia next week. I assume all these changes will just be behind the scenes and not something I'll be kicking myself for not waiting for?
I am personally going on the assumption that "pick a tier-1 combat class, prioritize strength" will always result in a better-than-playable combatant, both pre- and post- combat revamp.
I'm totally behind the idea that depending on your % of total hp, and stamina, you should get combat penalties. This would help to combat realistic situations where someone gets a horrible wound and still fights like he's fresh. It would In fact force realistic RP on folks so that staff don't have to put out echos like 'You're too fucked up to keep fighting'. Also increase stamina drains when below a certain health threshold. I also think that Waying should take way more focus and be strenuous (it would push hard for moe in person interactions, taverns, blah). But what do I know amirite?
Quote from: kakkarot on March 22, 2023, 01:16:09 PM
I'm totally behind the idea that depending on your % of total hp, and stamina, you should get combat penalties. This would help to combat realistic situations where someone gets a horrible wound and still fights like he's fresh. It would In fact force realistic RP on folks so that staff don't have to put out echos like 'You're too fucked up to keep fighting'. Also increase stamina drains when below a certain health threshold.
Vibe-wise, I love this. Realism-wise, I think it checks out. The first one to land a solid hit probably wins. It makes combat less grindy and more surprising.
Game-wise, it would take a lot of rebalancing. Not just combat mechanics (backstab: now even more deadly) but also social stuff...how the game is organized around combat. It tends to push people into sparring clans, or out of the game, or locks them more solidly into their combat tier, because one gnarly scrab hit can just end your PC.
(I mean, the reel code took us in this direction. It's not an all-or-nothing proposition.)
Personally, I don't like the suggestion because I believe it will create habits for players to never get into those situations. Players don't like to lose :)
I think there might be better uptake for the opposite - you do more damage / strike faster when your health is in the lower 20% of your total health. Or you regenerate more movement points per tick when you're in the lower 20% of your total movement points.
I feel the stories would be better told by "HOLY CRAP I ALMOST DIED!" than being forced to run away at a higher percentage of health than you typically do.
Quote from: kakkarot on March 22, 2023, 01:16:09 PM
I'm totally behind the idea that depending on your % of total hp, and stamina, you should get combat penalties. This would help to combat realistic situations where someone gets a horrible wound and still fights like he's fresh. It would In fact force realistic RP on folks so that staff don't have to put out echos like 'You're too fucked up to keep fighting'. Also increase stamina drains when below a certain health threshold. I also think that Waying should take way more focus and be strenuous (it would push hard for moe in person interactions, taverns, blah). But what do I know amirite?
This idea makes me very happy
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,59208.0.html
Looks very interesting, what was the thought behind the decision to switch shields to agi based rather than strength?
Quote from: Kavrick on March 22, 2023, 08:28:31 PM
Looks very interesting, what was the thought behind the decision to switch shields to agi based rather than strength?
It wasn't so much that as it was decided that every style should get both bonuses, but some more than others. So, every style gets a standard strength bonus, including shield use. Shield use gets a limited agility bonus, whereas dual wield gets the full agility bonus.
Quote from: kakkarot on March 22, 2023, 01:16:09 PM
I'm totally behind the idea that depending on your % of total hp, and stamina, you should get combat penalties. This would help to combat realistic situations where someone gets a horrible wound and still fights like he's fresh. It would In fact force realistic RP on folks so that staff don't have to put out echos like 'You're too fucked up to keep fighting'. Also increase stamina drains when below a certain health threshold. I also think that Waying should take way more focus and be strenuous (it would push hard for moe in person interactions, taverns, blah). But what do I know amirite?
You'd have to rewrite the way backstab works, or backstab would be more of a win button than it already can be. Getting someone to "badly wounded" with backstab is incredibly easy. If you now have a huge combat skill advantage and a great starting HP advantage in the fight, it completely unbalances noob backstabbers.
Quote from: Synthesis on March 23, 2023, 12:57:53 PM
Quote from: kakkarot on March 22, 2023, 01:16:09 PM
I'm totally behind the idea that depending on your % of total hp, and stamina, you should get combat penalties. This would help to combat realistic situations where someone gets a horrible wound and still fights like he's fresh. It would In fact force realistic RP on folks so that staff don't have to put out echos like 'You're too fucked up to keep fighting'. Also increase stamina drains when below a certain health threshold. I also think that Waying should take way more focus and be strenuous (it would push hard for moe in person interactions, taverns, blah). But what do I know amirite?
You'd have to rewrite the way backstab works, or backstab would be more of a win button than it already can be. Getting someone to "badly wounded" with backstab is incredibly easy. If you now have a huge combat skill advantage and a great starting HP advantage in the fight, it completely unbalances noob backstabbers.
I thought being injured already lowered your ability to fight? I thought that's what the 'pain tolerance' perk certain classes got helped with?
pain tolerance is "reel" resistance.
Quote from: Synthesis on March 23, 2023, 12:57:53 PM
Quote from: kakkarot on March 22, 2023, 01:16:09 PM
I'm totally behind the idea that depending on your % of total hp, and stamina, you should get combat penalties. This would help to combat realistic situations where someone gets a horrible wound and still fights like he's fresh. It would In fact force realistic RP on folks so that staff don't have to put out echos like 'You're too fucked up to keep fighting'. Also increase stamina drains when below a certain health threshold. I also think that Waying should take way more focus and be strenuous (it would push hard for moe in person interactions, taverns, blah). But what do I know amirite?
You'd have to rewrite the way backstab works, or backstab would be more of a win button than it already can be. Getting someone to "badly wounded" with backstab is incredibly easy. If you now have a huge combat skill advantage and a great starting HP advantage in the fight, it completely unbalances noob backstabbers.
Backstab, ranged weaponry, certain brands of magic.. Yeah.
Quote from: Halaster on March 23, 2023, 09:23:52 AM
So, every style gets a standard strength bonus, including shield use. Shield use gets a limited agility bonus, whereas dual wield gets the full agility bonus.
I like the idea of both twohanded and shield use getting limited agility bonus. But what does limited mean exactly when compared to normal agility damage bonus? Would you also please provide more detail on what standard strength bonus is with dual wield/shield use....for example when you have a bonus of 4 from strength?
Quote from: Dresan on March 23, 2023, 10:07:49 PM
Quote from: Halaster on March 23, 2023, 09:23:52 AM
So, every style gets a standard strength bonus, including shield use. Shield use gets a limited agility bonus, whereas dual wield gets the full agility bonus.
I like the idea of both twohanded and shield use getting limited agility bonus. But what does limited mean exactly when compared to normal agility damage bonus? Would you also please provide more detail on what standard strength bonus is with dual wield/shield use....for example when you have a bonus of 4 from strength?
It means basically shield use and two-handed get half the agility bonus.
If you have a 4 bonus from strength, then half will go towards raising the maximum damage, and half towards a flat bonus. So if you have a sword that does 1d6 and you get a 4 bonus from strength, half (2) will go towards raising the max dice, and half (2) will go towards a flat bonus. That works out to be 1d8+2. All styles will get this bonus.
Two-handed then gets additional bonuses based on strength and 2-handed skill, whereas none of the other styles do.
Dual-will and one-handed will get the full agility bonus, whereas two-handed and shield use will get only half of it. The primary change for dual wield that makes it competitive now is that the second attack has the same chance to hit as the primary. Before these changes that isn't the case.
Quote from: Halaster on March 24, 2023, 08:37:55 AM
Quote from: Dresan on March 23, 2023, 10:07:49 PM
Quote from: Halaster on March 23, 2023, 09:23:52 AM
So, every style gets a standard strength bonus, including shield use. Shield use gets a limited agility bonus, whereas dual wield gets the full agility bonus.
I like the idea of both twohanded and shield use getting limited agility bonus. But what does limited mean exactly when compared to normal agility damage bonus? Would you also please provide more detail on what standard strength bonus is with dual wield/shield use....for example when you have a bonus of 4 from strength?
It means basically shield use and two-handed get half the agility bonus.
If you have a 4 bonus from strength, then half will go towards raising the maximum damage, and half towards a flat bonus. So if you have a sword that does 1d6 and you get a 4 bonus from strength, half (2) will go towards raising the max dice, and half (2) will go towards a flat bonus. That works out to be 1d8+2. All styles will get this bonus.
Two-handed then gets additional bonuses based on strength and 2-handed skill, whereas none of the other styles do.
Dual-will and one-handed will get the full agility bonus, whereas two-handed and shield use will get only half of it. The primary change for dual wield that makes it competitive now is that the second attack has the same chance to hit as the primary. Before these changes that isn't the case.
I would rather see a +4 str bonus become 1d6+1d2+2 on a d6 weapon
Smaller str bonuses would still have similar oomph to how they are now while still giving larger ones the big deired range.
Quote from: Lotion on March 24, 2023, 11:13:18 PM
I would rather see a +4 str bonus become 1d6+1d2+2 on a d6 weapon
Smaller str bonuses would still have similar oomph to how they are now while still giving larger ones the big deired range.
This is an interesting idea. We often talk about that STR seems overpowered. This might be an elegant solution if that still feels true after the combat system update changes have been tested and balanced into a stable meta.
The changes are a massive improvement on game balance while keeping everything distinct still, you'll like it guys, I am super impressed with how the problems got fixed and how each style is performing.
No need to speculate on OP str it is still good of course but super fairer for everyone else who didn't roll AI or a HG now.
For high strength characters they will feel more tanky vs pcs/humanoid npcs (due to the ranges and heavy armor) but less OHK gods (although they can still reach hits like before just more RNG) . Is gud.
Big big kudos. Any style is viable...finally.
Agree with Inks
Easy agree, even as a new player I felt the pressure to always just 'find the biggest weapon and two hand it', but now I can feel less guilty about picking what fits the character over what's practical.