Quote from: "Nidhogg"With 0 visibility, when being buffetted by a high wind, I would think getting turned around is a viable possibility.

You would be aware though...

a better algo for this code might be something along the lines of:

walk original direction

if storm fail { randomly select new direction that is not a direct oppisite to original direction n,s,e,w)

walk new direction

if new direction fails (ie: 'you cannot go that way' then)

walk original direction with no chance to fail.

This would also better represent the gradual curve that would occur if you out in an open space.

Another thing to conisder is your ability to cling to cliff face.

If I'm walking e along the shield wall in a storm, and the north is blocked but the south is open, I shouldn't get turned south when my east walk fails.

As I said, the indoor room (sewers of Allanak, to be specific) that I mentioned at the top of this page wasn't storm-related, but darkness-related, which I'm assuming is similar code. I'm pretty sure that's global darkness code that has you move in completely random directons, not just area-specific code.

Quote from: "fearwig"I am walking in a tunnel with no intersections in sight. Suddenly, my torch goes out. I start walking the same way I've been walking.
Now, if I relight my torch, I have moved X random steps in random directions, putting me (on average) right back where I was. In a TWO WAY TUNNEL.

Having been speelunking, I find this entirely believable.

I'm sure that if you spend enough time on this, you can come up with a thousand examples of where the code is flawed with respect to storms, and with respect to darkness.  The intent of the code isn't necessarily to be entirely believable, but instead to create a framework for you to play with.  If you're wandering around in a pitch-black tunnel without a torch, don't be surprised if you get lost (or eaten by a grue)...  the code represents this by causing you to wander in a random direction, sometimes bumping into a wall, sometimes moving 180 degrees the wrong way...  the code isn't perfect, but it achieves its goal which is to make you buy a torch.  Essentially the same code causes wandering in the wilderness during storms (it isn't, in fact, the same code, but one was probably cut and pasted from the other); the intent of that code is to make you bring a ranger.

Neither of these systems is really meant to be perfect.  There are a thousand tiny elements of the game which aren't exactly represented by the code, and you are expected to smooth those "bumps" with your RP.  I don't think either of these systems are unplayable, or unROLEplayable, and they both seem to be achieving what they're meant to achieve, which is to inconvenience (or injure, or kill) the unprepared and to define specific roles and boundaries (ie. if you try to make X be your lifestyle, you may face danger Y).

-- X

Quote from: "Nidhogg"With 0 visibility, when being buffetted by a high wind, I would think getting turned around is a viable possibility.

I don't think getting completely turned around is viable. If you're walking into the wind, I'm sure you'll notice if the wind is blowing your hood up against your head instead of off of it. I could see turning to the side, because it wouldn't be AS noticeable.

I'm in favor of not going in the completely opposite direction. I think that is the only revision of the "lost" code I think should be warranted.

And even then it's not that big of a deal to me, It's fine the way it is, and I can only see it getting better if you can't go directly the opposite direction.

Also, maybe if the winds are harsh, you could attempt heading North, stumble and fall because of the winds and lack of visibility, and when you get up try heading North again, but because of your tumble you COULD be turned around then. That would make more sense to me.

Heading North, you can go North, East, or West, but not South. However, if you are knocked over by the winds/something on the ground, you can then go in any direction.

What is around you?
If the wind changes direction, and you know that you were going with the wind, wouldn't you go with the wind still?

Quote from: "DejaVu"I don't think getting completely turned around is viable. If you're walking into the wind, I'm sure you'll notice if the wind is blowing your hood up against your head instead of off of it. I could see turning to the side, because it wouldn't be AS noticeable.

Yaarrgh!!   People, in real life, you do not walk on rails fixed to cardinal directions.  Your direction can gradually change.  Furthermore, as 4254 points out, winds change.  Also, a western wind does not mean a constant, unidirectional wind like from a stationary desk fan.  Wind eddies form in all but the most unobstructed terrain.  They whip and make the wind feel like it is constantly changing.  Western wind means prevailing western wind.  Ever seen someone do that deal where they moisten their fingertip and hold it up into the wind.  That's because just the subjective idea of how the wind feels is often not enough to determine the prevailing wind.  You have to see which side of the finger dries out faster to determine that.  Ever seen a windsock outside?  It whips and jumps and falls, but -generally- points in the same direction.

In a blinding sandstorm, you CAN and WILL get turned around, and you WILL NOT notice it.

QuoteAlso, maybe if the winds are harsh, you could attempt heading North, stumble and fall because of the winds and lack of visibility, and when you get up try heading North again, but because of your tumble you COULD be turned around then. That would make more sense to me.

Coding nightmare.  There are reasons that Diku MUDS have few features that take into account past events.  Pretend you fell over, if you must.

QuoteHeading North, you can go North, East, or West.

As I've previously pointed out, if only N, E, and W are possibilities, E and W will statistically cancel each other out and you will probably continue exactly how you want to.  And, again, characters do not move on rails.

People, people.  This thread has a few people with actual experiences...:

Quote from: "Xygax"Having been speelunking, I find (having trouble moving in a tunnel in the darkness) entirely believable.

...plus a bunch of other people offering "common sense" type explanations of how moving around in the pitch black or in a blinding sandstorm is easy as pie.

Want to know the truth, folks?  The current lose-your-way code is realistically TOO GENTLE.  I've written some programs with random movement algorithms, and when it's a simple choice of N,S,E,W on each move, with no consideration of the previous move, you mostly end up bouncing around a bit in the same area.  Realistically, you should end up VERY far away from where you want to be when you get lost.

Oh and as for not being able to get turned around in wind.
That is possible, I used to go with my dad as he was a Geo surveyor (Or what have you) and one day with not even bad winds, but a lot of sand, we were practically going in a circle, even walking back on our feet prints.

Let us say you get off track and want to retrace your steps, you follow your steps for a ways, but then when they get erased by the sand, do you believe that you were on a straight line, or do you try and correct your direction? Even a little.

QuoteI don't think getting completely turned around is viable. If you're walking into the wind, I'm sure you'll notice if the wind is blowing your hood up against your head instead of off of it. I could see turning to the side, because it wouldn't be AS noticeable.

Errr

From the docs:

QuoteThe wind can sometimes reach up to 90 miles per hour (roughly 150 km/h in real life), building into enormous gales across the flat wastes.

""Andrew was the most costly US storm on record with total losses of $26.5 billion, $1 billion of which was in Louisiana while the rest was in Florida. Winds gusted at over 175mph and had sustained strengths of 145mph. At least 180,000 people were left homeless, 126,000 homes destroyed or damaged, over 50 people killed as a direct or indirect effect of the storm and at least 10,400 injured.

How does something with such monstrous potential acquire such an innocuous name?

Well, lets go back to the beginning. Tropical cyclones, (or tropical storms) (wind speeds between 39mph and 74 mph) or hurricanes (wind speeds of 75mph and above) form within seven regions around the world called 'basins'.  Source http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/features/understanding/hurricane_names.shtml
""


Note that's 90 MPH on a 'normal' storm... So basicly your in a sandblaster.... barely able to stand.. unable to walk against the wind.. flying sand scouring the skin from your body... being struck by flying crap moving at 90 MPH... hell be glad it doesn't do DAMAGE let alone turn you around.

Yeah, i myself have always had a problem about getting -completely turned around. I think you would notice, if you were walking against high, sand blasting winds, and then, all of a sudden, it was hitting your back.

I think in the city and outside should be two different codes. Say, outside in the desert you could be taken NE or SW of the north room you were trying to go to, which would spice it up a little more. And indoors it should stick to the same one room majobber.

Sand tends to hit you from every direction at once when there's bad weather, but yes, you would notice it - if you were a ranger. This is sand that bleeds your eyes. If you're not extremely used to it, you won't exactly be double-checking your direction.

In pitch-black one-way tunnels, it'd be neat to have one's chance of being turned around lowered just a tiny, tiny bit. But as that probably isn't very feasible codewise, we'll have to make do with what we have. It's still something that happens a lot more easily than your common sense would have you believe.

That would be entirely feasible, code-wise.


Anyway, based on what someone said earlier:


I think that the worst of storms -should- do damage, and that the 'getting turned around' bit should be toned down seriously. While I think it should be a factor, it's not a realistically implemented one at this point.

The climate of Zalanthas closely mimics that of Arrakis, save that it was more extreme in Dune. People didn't stay out in bad weather because the flying debris would eat them alive, not so much because they'd get a little confused.

I don't think every storm should be like that, but I think that the worst of them should be. Milder storms should perhaps obscure your vision such that you have a 25-50% chance of getting sent NW/NE instead of N, and so forth. While NE and NW aren't standard directions in Arm from what I can tell, it can be coded as an extra direction added onto the coded one (excluding the opposite direction, S in this case). Extra stamina would be expended to allow for the confusion.

Would you have the darkness code merely react with leniency on all indoor and cave rooms, or also base the percentages on available ordinarily visible exits?

Having more than one level of blinding sand storm isn't bad, and would be nice. One could also give even ordinary non-blinding storms a chance of putting you off-course.

A change that I'll idea as soon as I can get into the game is for any indication that one went the wrong way to be removed, so that one can well and truly get lost through code.

Quote from: "Northlander"A change that I'll idea as soon as I can get into the game is for any indication that one went the wrong way to be removed, so that one can well and truly get lost through code.

Word.  Now this is a cool idea.   :twisted:

QuoteThe climate of Zalanthas closely mimics that of Arrakis, save that it was more extreme in Dune. People didn't stay out in bad weather because the flying debris would eat them alive, not so much because they'd get a little confused.

 Well not really   Arrakis had  Mach+ storm speeds.. that's hundreds of miles an hour...

Right, hence "save that it was more extreme in Dune".

My point is essentially that the kind of "oh man, these storms are so bad you'll get confused exactly 100% of the time, every time you step!" logic would almost surely have to include physical harm, if the storms were -really- that bad. I'd rather see a balance between the two factors.

Quote from: "fearwig"Right, hence "save that it was more extreme in Dune".

My point is essentially that the kind of "oh man, these storms are so bad you'll get confused exactly 100% of the time, every time you step!" logic would almost surely have to include physical harm, if the storms were -really- that bad. I'd rather see a balance between the two factors.

Yes, it would.  Luckily the storm code -doesn't- work this way.

I don't mind being lost in the desert. Don't care if Imms make bets on when I'll die or whatever it is that their hopeing is gonna happen. I just wish that the look command could tell you if a blinding sand storm was RIGHT THERE!

Use this command "Weather n"

Quote from: "Kennath"I don't mind being lost in the desert. Don't care if Imms make bets on when I'll die or whatever it is that their hopeing is gonna happen. I just wish that the look command could tell you if a blinding sand storm was RIGHT THERE!

You can see if there is a storm or not in the next room by using weather command.

Weather north/south/east/west (or simply n s e w)

See help weather for it.

I dont want to "look n" (enter) "look e" (enter) "look w" (enter) "look s" (enter) "weather n" (enter) "weather e" (enter) "weather w" (enter) "weather s" (enter)
look should give you a SMALL hint theres a storm your walking blindly into I mean, and it shouldn't take you that long to figure it out...
unless that is what you plan to make travel slower...

Hmm.. But you know Kennath, you can use some macro.  I am not someone in favor of macros but at least I use a few of them and one of them to "look around".  Make a button somewhere it will make "l n;l s;l e;l w" as you press it, and then just make a weather <direction you want to walk>.  Just checking the direction you are heading will do, since you are headed to that direction.

It really is not a big trouble, so long it is just pressing a button and checking the weather.

Well, when you are about to cross into a new area of the map, Go "Weather (direction where you are going)"

You're traveling about a league per outside room.

Slow down, take a look around. It'll do you safer in the long run.

If you're charging blindly along without checking around, you deserve to run headlong into critters and sandstorms.