Spice has negative effects if used often. These negative effects are hard to avoid for the regular user. Addiction is a terrible consequence of using.
The playerbase is filled with either people who are too new to the game to be able to comfortably afford spice, or people who CAN afford spice but choose not to because they OOCly know about the negative effects of using it.
In order for spice to become a commodity that people want to trade again, to boost the black market activity in the major cities and stimulate plot intrigue, I highly suggest that the permanent negative effects of using spice be removedmodified, such that the aftereffects of spice use wear off in a manner more similar to alcohol (i.e., when logged off), and or that other modifications be made to (some/all) spice to make using (certain kinds of spice) less debilitating. I also suggest that addiction be made much less crippling.
Edited to reflect the discussion that followed this post.
Please just lower the price. Kurac can make up the difference in volume.
Against this. Spice is for those who can afford it. Like Salarri ankheg/horror armor, Kuraci wagons and Kadian custom redecorating.
For it. I want to see more smuggling. There are different kinds, targeting different markets, for a reason.
I want to see more junkies.
No struggle with "realism" here, or playability. If you want spice for absolutely positively free, no charge, go out and sift some. You need a sifter, but you can probably find that in any random apartment anywhere in the entire world, if you're renting. Or you could buy one - so sure you'd need an initial investment. But once you have your sifter, spice costs zero coins at all.
OR - you can eliminate the risk involved in sifting your own spice, and buy it by the grain from someone else who's doing the sifting. Not all that expensive either.
OR - you can RP wanting the "good stuff," properly strained, cleaned, and pressed by Kurac, and pay a premium for the premium quality from a shop, or a hefty amount from a PC merchant, but probably less than what you'd have to pay at a shop.
OR - you can work for Kurac and get your bonuses (in addition to your pay) in spice, which used to be a pretty common occurrence - and hopefully still is.
OR - you can commission someone to smuggle it for you.
OR - you can make friends with a Kurac employee and manipulate them into giving you the spice at their discount.
Before my thread gets -too- derailed, I just want to remind people I am not personally suggesting to lower the prices for spice. I think the prices are where they should be, considering a.) the current level of inflation and b.) the cost of other commodities such as food and water, where spice is very comparable.
I want the permanent(ish) negative effects to begone, though, because I happen to know for a fact that's why people aren't using spice more.
If spice was made more appealing on a coded level then people would actually care about it. As it is? I am depressed by how little spice gets used, and how pretty much everyone is only willing to smoke a certain spice that doesn't have the obvious negatives that pretty much every other kind of spice has.
I'm not sure I am following.
So...this game lets you play a spice addict to detrimental effects on your PC. Therefore, because of those detrimental effects on people that have chosen to play spice addicts, you're saying that (some number of) other people look at them and go, nope, I'm not gonna be a spice addict (whether IC or OOC) and use spice in moderation.
Let's say that's an IC thing, people saying that. "Wow, Amos there is fucked up, he'll show you a game of Tek's Tower--if you get my drift--for even a hit of spice, he'll probably die from that shit one day." Ok. So what? Amos is happy and the guy observing is engrossed in the world and says no to drugs. Except, he still uses them.
Let's say that's an OOC thing. "Yeah, I don't want my PC to be a spice addict, he or she just uses it recreationally, I'm not really interested in playing out the full extent of being a complete spice fiend." Ok. So what? You're playing what you want to play, people are not required to play PCs addicted to spice, and PCs might well use spice sparingly anyway, just "less" than an addict.
You've even said the reason people aren't using it more is because of this. Not "at all" but more. So what? If being a spice addict was glamorous and had no coded detriments IC and only benefits, then it makes everyone a happy addict to a harmless substance that has no ill effects on their PCs and only provides occasional benefits. "Oh, they can RP being an addict, but that code better not force them to be one when they choose to use it so much that they'd be addicted to it!" ;) This isn't a MUSH; code is going to back up certain aspects of the game, and in this case, it backs up addiction to a substance.
This same thing came up with alcohol and the code was adjusted to allow the effects of alcohol to continue to wear off while logged out. If this kind of change were applied to spice, letting spice effects both good and bad wear off while offline, spice use would increase.
Quote from: Nyr on July 25, 2014, 11:42:37 AM
I'm not sure I am following.
So...this game lets you play a spice addict to detrimental effects on your PC. Therefore, because of those detrimental effects on people that have chosen to play spice addicts, you're saying that (some number of) other people look at them and go, nope, I'm not gonna be a spice addict (whether IC or OOC) and use spice in moderation.
Let's say that's an IC thing, people saying that. "Wow, Amos there is fucked up, he'll show you a game of Tek's Tower--if you get my drift--for even a hit of spice, he'll probably die from that shit one day." Ok. So what? Amos is happy and the guy observing is engrossed in the world and says no to drugs. Except, he still uses them.
Let's say that's an OOC thing. "Yeah, I don't want my PC to be a spice addict, he or she just uses it recreationally, I'm not really interested in playing out the full extent of being a complete spice fiend." Ok. So what? You're playing what you want to play, people are not required to play PCs addicted to spice, and PCs might well use spice sparingly anyway, just "less" than an addict.
You've even said the reason people aren't using it more is because of this. Not "at all" but more. So what? If being a spice addict was glamorous and had no coded detriments IC and only benefits, then it makes everyone a happy addict to a harmless substance that has no ill effects on their PCs and only provides occasional benefits. "Oh, they can RP being an addict, but that code better not force them to be one when they choose to use it so much that they'd be addicted to it!" ;) This isn't a MUSH; code is going to back up certain aspects of the game, and in this case, it backs up addiction to a substance.
Basically, I have played "spice users trying to use it moderately" and my stats get degraded anyway. I've never tried to play a "spice addict who has no regard for their own health" but I imagine then the effects are even worse.
People don't use spices that have the potential to degrade stats
almost at all because those effects seem to happen unpredictably, and then lead to permanent loss of stats to their PCs that they never actually planned to play as "addicts."
Because the code is so unrelenting in regards to this, people rapidly learn not to have their PCs be spice users. Or they use it once or twice here and there, whatever they think they can get away with -- spice is now just a flavor item and never gets bought and sold in any reasonable quantity.
Let me put it to you this way, Nyr.
On some of my PCs I have done this:
Fill spice pipe up with spice. Actually, the pipe wasn't even full, it was just packed with a decent amount of spice with a market value of 50-100 sid or so.
Then, my PC smokes it -- over time, spread out over weeks and weeks, with plenty of IC hours between hits to allow for the effects to "dissipate." I was trying to smoke it "responsibly" or "carefully."
Before my pipe is even empty, my PC now has their first permanent decrease to one of their stats because of it.
Lesson learned: I won't be using that spice (or many others like it) ever again. Is this desirable? no.
Or another way to put it. In terms of how people should ICly see spice, a roid-ranger should see a brick of (spice X) and drool. Instead, they're more likely to see that brick and think, "Heh, how am I ever going to smoke all of that without fucking myself up, and how the hell am I ever going to find someone to help me smoke all of it... what a pain." = broken system.
:)
Oh good, Lizzie said what I wasn't sure I should post or not.
I think the spice code is just fine as it is. To be honest, I can't say that I come across many people who avoid certain spices because they are OOCly worried about lasting effects.
the above two posts are helpful to the discussion, but I still don't think there's nearly enough use of spice in game.. basically I have played several characters that try to sell spice and it has been pretty difficult to nearly impossible to get buyers. This means I am basically asking for a "buff" to spice so I can get more business, which is a pretty selfish reason to ask for a code change, but the bottom line is I am pretty dissatisfied with the market demand for spice and wanted to see it looked at.
When I say "for it" I mean "for reducing the price." Never dealt with the permanent negative effects of spice, so I can't comment on that.
Quote from: Beethoven on July 25, 2014, 12:20:50 PM
When I say "for it" I mean "for reducing the price." Never dealt with the permanent negative effects of spice, so I can't comment on that.
But as I mentioned, you can get it *free* if you're willing to accept the risk and spend a minimal investment in buying a sifter. Spice is a premium in Tuluk because it comes from RSV, and taxes, and risk, etc. etc. etc. Spice is unavailable publically in Allanak, because it's illegal. You can get it cheap in RSV, free in the silt, reasonably priced in Luir's.
Quote from: Nyr on July 25, 2014, 11:42:37 AM
I'm not sure I am following.
Harmless is saying that some people that want to play with spice are opting not to because the coded effects are too harsh.
S/he is also saying that if the coded effects were less harsh, a greater percentage of the subset of people that want to have their characters play with spice would do so.
S/he then stated that this is a desirable outcome because it would shift spice away from a flavor role and into the game proper.
Lizzie's spoiler is helpful - does it appear in the helpfiles anywhere? If not explicitly, then perhaps there are "traditions" surrounding spice consumption that could be written up in a helpfile; these could implicitly inform players how to avoid these negative effects with a few hint-hint nudge-nudges.
I kind of agree with Harmless. I imagine if spice was more like anabolic steroids or TRT it would see more use. These are probably bad for your long-term health (absolutely if you don't know what you're doing), but are actually GREAT for your short-term health and recovery, and help older athletes remain competitive long past their prime.
To remedy the situation, but still make spice dangerous, it might be a nice change if the negative effects of using spice didn't begin to start crushing your PC until he hit human-equivalent 45, or 50 (who's going to live that long anyway?), and shortened your character's lifespan.
I understand completely what Harmless means. Unfortunately, I've noticed numerous times that PCs do not even CASUALLY engage in smoking spice, unless to gain its perceived combat benefits. Right now it feels like a flavor role for the longer-lived PCs or vets that know how to at least score a hit. The Guild, in my mind, was supposed to be the pushers, but since they only deal with PCs, and maybe 1-2 PCs in the area are even SMOKING spice (and they smuggle it in through other means) it kind of removes the "seedy drug dealer" feel from alley dwellers.
I don't have suggestions on how to make it better, but it really feels like an expensive money sink flavor tool. Make kohl eyeliner illegal, and find out how many people still try to look like Khal Drogo. And spice supposedly makes you a tougher fighter!
For me, if I have ever chosen not to smoke spice, it was either because I was a 'loyal' Nakki, or the price. I don't know that spice is over-priced - it just never seemed like something my PCs were interested in obtaining over water, food, sword #473, silken robe #210, or what have you.
I will agree that it's not as tempting as it could be, but I certainly don't agree that the negative effects should be removed, by any stretch of the imagination. Perhaps an idea would be to shorten the casual side-effects, but but a positively-weighted randomization to the addiction code, so that you could use spice for years, however you liked, and never get addicted, or use it twice and be hooked for life.
IRL, addiction is not cut and dry. Not everybody who uses cocaine is addicted to it, and not everybody who takes pain pills are addicted to them, but anybody who uses those things over a varied amount of time can and will likely become addicted to it. If there were a 1 percent chance that your character could become addicted, but no cut and dry rule to avoid it, I think it would enhance both the risk, and the thrill of it, and if combined with a sure-fire way to become un-addicted that took a prolonged amount of time to play through, meaning that even if you ruined your character you could recover, I think that would fix this perceived issue.
IMHO, ICly, it makes sense if you want to be an addict, to join Kurac.
It sounds like it would be a great money sink for the game if the negative effects were removed but only for Kuraci sold spice. :)
I would also recommend that kuraci sold spice should last longer then it does, a whole IC day if not two for the price (heck adjust the price higher if you want). I guess one can always carry more spice but its a bit annoying to have to sniff up all the time, and makes it less reliable when you are doing lengthy dangerous tasks. To balance it out though, you should only be able to smoke/sniff a very modest amount before you get a message you are about to pass out, how many times you can do it should be dependent on endurance and possibly a skill like alcohol tolerance.
This would really make it a staple for a lot of people to purchase and carry around as much as food/water. If you can afford it, there would be no reason not to be spiced up. Even in allanak where its illegal, the demand would skyrocket.
I wouldn't have a problem at all with Kurac spice being a different animal than 'wild' spice.
Part of that 'negative effect' is what breeds addicts though.
You feel like shit, so you start smoking spice to feel 'normal' again.
Thus the cycle begins.
I don't know why Kurac would develop spice that only makes you feel great. The burnout is part of the hook that keeps customers coming back, instead of just getting their rocks off on the weekend.
I removed Lizzie's spoiler.
There's only really one issue here then--you don't know enough about how it works. And that can be learned in-game. The reason I removed Lizzie's spoiler isn't because it's some massive secret or anything, but because it's not in the documentation and it would be better for you to figure it out yourself. Some IC systems take some learning. The brew system is one system that took me years to even understand that it was a system unlike crafting. It follows rules, but you have to learn them! I take it that this may be your first character that used spice in any significant way. You are under an impression about the coded effects of spice that simply isn't true. You're missing a piece of the puzzle. If you're waiting for the high to wear off and then immediately getting high again, you actually aren't waiting for the effects to wear off...you're just waiting for the high to wear off. And yes, that's the kind of behavior a complete addict would shoot for. You are playing a spice addict, then, whether you realize it or not.
Anyway, more people should use spice in-game.
Quote from: Reiloth on July 25, 2014, 01:21:34 PM
IMHO, ICly, it makes sense if you want to be an addict, to join Kurac.
No. OOCly, it makes sense. ICly, Kurac isn't going to hire the average addict, and ICly, nobody wants to be an addict.
And it's the impression that x amount of spice makes you become an addict automatically, that hinders it from an, apparently, OOC standpoint. If you make addiction, instead of a cut and dry result, a randomized effect, that happens less rather than more, you create that hook, both ICly and OOCly, to smoke spice. Eventually, you have x amount of people smoking it, and there end up being more addicts anyway.
If you additionally take away all negative effects caused by addiction, as long as you are spiced, then it makes recovery less of a desire too, and lengthens the hook.
I think those are pretty black and white assumptions.
Why would Kurac not hire addicts, if they let their soldiers smoke spice, sometimes even on shift?
If the addict starts convulsing from withdrawals, or robbing people in the Outpost to get money to buy spice, they'd probably fire him (or permanently fire him via execution).
Just speaking from an addiction standpoint IRL, that's not how addiction works. You come down, it sucks, and you want to use again to feel high (and not sick).
I'm also not certain the Chemists and Scientists working for Kurac could figure out a way to eliminate the negative effects from spice. We are talking about a pre-bronze age society here.
Quote from: Reiloth on July 25, 2014, 01:59:58 PM
Why would Kurac not hire addicts, if they let their soldiers smoke spice, sometimes even on shift?
If the addict starts convulsing from withdrawals, or robbing people in the Outpost to get money to buy spice, they'd probably fire him (or permanently fire him via execution).
You're right. I was thinking of the addled when I said addict, and not just a fairly normal person who's addicted.
Quote from: Reiloth on July 25, 2014, 01:59:58 PM
Just speaking from an addiction standpoint IRL, that's not how addiction works. You come down, it sucks, and you want to use again to feel high (and not sick).
Yes, I know. As I said, "If you additionally
take away all negative effects caused by addiction, as long as you are spiced, then it makes recovery less of a desire too, and lengthens the hook." I've bolded the matching portions in both yours and my statements.
Quote from: Reiloth on July 25, 2014, 01:59:58 PM
I'm also not certain the Chemists and Scientists working for Kurac could figure out a way to eliminate the negative effects from spice. We are talking about a pre-bronze age society here.
This isn't exactly a pre-bronze age civilization, but it's very close, true. And I doubt the Age matters much; after all, we can't even do that these days. Additionally, I wouldn't want to see the negative effects removed - but I could imagine that they might be able to make spice more potent and thus last longer, while keeping the effects the same or lessening them.
Quote from: Nyr on July 25, 2014, 01:38:25 PM
I removed Lizzie's spoiler.
There's only really one issue here then--you don't know enough about how it works. And that can be learned in-game. The reason I removed Lizzie's spoiler isn't because it's some massive secret or anything, but because it's not in the documentation and it would be better for you to figure it out yourself. Some IC systems take some learning. The brew system is one system that took me years to even understand that it was a system unlike crafting. It follows rules, but you have to learn them! I take it that this may be your first character that used spice in any significant way. You are under an impression about the coded effects of spice that simply isn't true. You're missing a piece of the puzzle. If you're waiting for the high to wear off and then immediately getting high again, you actually aren't waiting for the effects to wear off...you're just waiting for the high to wear off. And yes, that's the kind of behavior a complete addict would shoot for. You are playing a spice addict, then, whether you realize it or not.
Anyway, more people should use spice in-game.
To the best of my ability, I was trying to play the "responsible" smoker. I was giving it a healthy delay between uses. Sometimes several IC days, other times it felt like about a day or more. In between smoking my PC did other things -- did trades, went out foraging, sat in a bar. Then, another hit. That kind of deal; the "weekend" smoker, if you will, of Zalanthas. Yet, the negatives of spice were rapidly piling up, apparently.
Maybe the secondary effect of smoking should be allowed to time down while logged off, similar to alcohol. Maybe there's something here I'm missing, because I'm not meticulously keeping track of IC hours that pass between hits, etc, because I'm not trying to game the system.
What I perceived was something unexpected: the negatives of spice happening far too early in my PC's career of use to make sense to me. It's my opinion that it should be "lightened up" because it just feels too harsh to be fun to use casually. If you want spice to be something PCs only use when "absolutely needed," or for "flavor" purposes, then the system as it is now is fine. If you want spice to be something PCs want to use, to make the temptation of use vs. the illegality in Allanak a real difficult decision, then I recommend that such timers be made more lax or that they at least be allowed to tick off when not logged in.
I see what you mean now...the lack of effects being reduced offline can be confusing, seeing as how the outlier is alcohol (after 2008). I'll discuss with some coding staff to see what improvements could be made to spice, but keep in mind that any changes for playability may include changes that retain like-to-like detriments (and perhaps changes to documentation).
thank you!
On the same token, it'd be cool if Alcohol had lingering effects as well (Detrimental that could be overcome by continuing to drink), to level the playing field between spice and alcohol, so people could choose to be an alcoholic, spice-addict, or both if they liked.
Overcome by continuing to drink? Heh. How about you get tougher (more physical resistance) but dumber and slower, as well as have a chance for a short-lived multiple rage? Unlike most spice alcohol is a depressant, I think, while spice tends to be a steroid.
Well, there's so many different brands. Elation, aggression, acute awareness, and complete numbness.
It'd be cool if Alcohol eventually dehydrates you, reduces wisdom, and if you continue drinking after you've already blacked out several times, you start to develop environmental echoes. Almost reminders to drink. Haha.
When you drink, the echoes go away (Shaky hands?), and you feel normal.
That'd sure throw a wrench at Sun Runners, haha.
I like the current spice addiction code. I feel like it hits you with some real consequences but allows you enough room to RP your addiction however you like.
I wouldn't mind if it was changed or fleshed out a bit though.
Quote from: Reiloth on July 25, 2014, 06:24:15 PM
Well, there's so many different brands. Elation, aggression, acute awareness, and complete numbness.
It'd be cool if Alcohol eventually dehydrates you, reduces wisdom, and if you continue drinking after you've already blacked out several times, you start to develop environmental echoes. Almost reminders to drink. Haha.
When you drink, the echoes go away (Shaky hands?), and you feel normal.
That'd sure throw a wrench at Sun Runners, haha.
Yeah, this'd be awesome.
Sending Nyr a request about his latest post where he says he'll take a look at the "logged out" end of spice. Also - thanks for re-phrasing the post you deleted from me in a non-spoilerish way. Hopefully some who were under certain impressions, will realize their perception isn't exactly what they think it is :)
Trying not to spoil anything but, having played a true addict, it feels to me like the part between when you become addicted and when your addiction becomes unplayable is relatively very short.
(http://i.imgur.com/Iia6L5l.jpg)
OH WAIT
Spice Addiction is harsh but it really should be. I often let my characters have a spice problem and you shouldn't avoid things you know will be detrimental. Playing Armageddon is like playing Dwarf Fortress, there is no way to win anything instead play to have FUN! I agree that perhaps the code can be tinkered with so that, like alcohol, the timers can continue while a character is logged off but I do not think that the penalties should be any less than they are currently. Some of my most fun characters were dirty, poor degenerates and you really do need the detriments to back that up.
I just wish my down and out pcs who need some escape could afford to be addicts. (I know, I'm just repeating myself now. Last time. Promise.)
Quote from: Barzalene on July 25, 2014, 09:52:53 PM
I just wish my down and out pcs who need some escape could afford to be addicts. (I know, I'm just repeating myself now. Last time. Promise.)
They can. The truly degenerate can sift spice for free, after the initial investment of the price of the sifter. (I know, I'm just repeating myself now. Last time. Promise."
You know you're addicted when you walk all the way to Red Storm from Tuluk just to get your fix.
Quote from: Lizzie on July 26, 2014, 05:41:18 AM
Quote from: Barzalene on July 25, 2014, 09:52:53 PM
I just wish my down and out pcs who need some escape could afford to be addicts. (I know, I'm just repeating myself now. Last time. Promise.)
They can. The truly degenerate can sift spice for free, after the initial investment of the price of the sifter. (I know, I'm just repeating myself now. Last time. Promise."
That's great if you play in Storm. Degeneracy should not be geographically dependent. That's like saying if you want to be a junkie, but you don't want to rob liquor stores or steal copper wire you should harvest your own poppies. ... In Afghanistan.
Personally, I think more plots would be advanced if a certain common blunder more often resulted in arrest and a rather long imprisonment (so a Templar or the Militia gets time to respond) rather than *splat*. The people who are knowingly breaking the law aren't going to get caught, while the person who has no idea gets crushed. At least a little more RP than "does horrific things to your head" would be good, though I could be wrong.
You've being vague so this could be a swing and a miss.
I know crim-code gets a lot of flack on the GDB. But seriously... I've never had a character killed who didn't resist. And you don't resist by default. The only way you get splatted is if you're actively attacking someone(like, say with 'kick' in a bar brawl) or have 'nosave arrest' on.
Perhaps to help this, nosave-arrest could default to off at log in? That way to actively resist arrest you have to knowingly turn if off before you commit a crime. This could help that veteran Kuraci employee who turned off their nosave arrest eight months ago while they were in Tuluk doing something shady, then decided to visit Allanak to brag with a forgotten tube of spice in their inventory.
Quote from: Barzalene on July 26, 2014, 11:51:15 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on July 26, 2014, 05:41:18 AM
Quote from: Barzalene on July 25, 2014, 09:52:53 PM
I just wish my down and out pcs who need some escape could afford to be addicts. (I know, I'm just repeating myself now. Last time. Promise.)
They can. The truly degenerate can sift spice for free, after the initial investment of the price of the sifter. (I know, I'm just repeating myself now. Last time. Promise."
That's great if you play in Storm. Degeneracy should not be geographically dependent. That's like saying if you want to be a junkie, but you don't want to rob liquor stores or steal copper wire you should harvest your own poppies. ... In Afghanistan.
No, it's more like - if you live in Rochester and want to score a dime-bag of heroin, you need to head to Manhattan unless you don't mind paying a premium for stuff from your neighbors.
Made new post when I meant to edit
Ten and a half hours round trip for cheaper dope might be reasonable for the occasional user, but for the hardcore junkie it's not feasible. And while some junkies may relocate to Nepal, most do not.
An awful lot of western tree hugging druggies ended up in Nepal. Isn't it the same in Storm?
Quote from: solera on July 26, 2014, 04:12:30 PM
An awful lot of western tree hugging druggies ended up in Nepal. Isn't it the same in Storm?
I didn't know about the Nepal thing so maybe? :) :) :)
Quote from: Barzalene on July 26, 2014, 04:02:01 PM
Ten and a half hours round trip for cheaper dope might be reasonable for the occasional user, but for the hardcore junkie it's not feasible. And while some junkies may relocate to Nepal, most do not.
The stuff you can buy "over-the-counter" in Tuluk is marked up, agreed; probably something to do with supply-demand curves. I think it works as is, in general, but maybe PC actions can increase the availability or decrease the price of certain kinds of spice up north and there can be broke clay-digging junkies or something.
Let's see - spice isn't real. There's no corresponding product in real life. Heroin is nothing like spice. Marijuana is sort of like some spice, but not really, and the coded effects are nothing at all like it, though the echo you get might be similar. Nepal might be 10 hours away, but Red Storm is only an hour or two, on a mount, because there are no airplanes. If you're a desert elf, you could probably "realistically" run from Tuluk to Red Storm in a single game-day's time, and still "realistically" rest in Luir's and a couple of other choice spots along the way, to make it realistic.
What else - you can get to Luir's from Tuluk fairly quickly, and get your spice for a lot less there.
Being a junkie on 100-sid spice is not the same as being a junkie on $100 cocaine. First of all, most degenerate commoner nobodies don't make 100 sids in a week, let alone be able to afford a daily junk habit of that cost. Second of all, if you're a good thief, then you can afford to buy spice right there in Tuluk and not have to go anywhere to get it cheaper.
Realistically, Armageddon isn't real. This is why I loathe the comparisons. There are none. There are no elves in real life, there's no silt sea, there's no spice, there's no Kurac. The world of Armageddon isn't based on reality. It's based on a hybrid of a fantasy game and a sci-fi fantasy fiction novel.
I'm going to oversimplify spice in a way that's not completely accurate, but describes how I feel spice largely works in the game world. I'm going to say that there are two types of spice. The first gives you a brief coded benefit followed by a very, very long detriment. The second gives you a pleasant echo which is later followed by an unpleasant echo. Of the spices that are purchased by PCs, it seems the majority are the "echo" spices which are frequently used to add color to their characters. The side effects of the "coded" spices are so harsh that I rarely use them with my PCs or see them used by other PCs. When I've tried to sell spice, I almost always find no buyers. In the past, I've gone so far as to smuggle spice into Allanak only to find zero buyers or dealers. I'm sure this isn't always the case, but it frequently is for me. I think if some changes were made then more people would want spice, more people would trade spice, more people would smuggle spice, more people would get caught smuggling, and more plots/interactions would develop.
Here are some ideas:
1) Leave grains of spice exactly as they are now.
2) Change pinches of spice to make them less harsh. Hypothetically, a "coded" pinch of spice might grant you +3 to your coolness for three hours. Once it wears off, you'd be at -3 coolness for three hours. If you need to be Fonzie on Abid, you could spice up, come down, and be back to normal on Cingel. The addiction would come, not from physical dependence, but from the desire to be Fonzie again if only you had a few more pinches of spice.
3) To add some balance, the price of pinches and larger amounts of spice could be increased to prevent overuse by all but the most wealthy.
I feel a lot could be added to the game by making spice more desirable to players and thus their characters.
If anything, I'd say leave everything the way it is EXCEPT make *processed* spice (made by Kurac or whoever is in possession of the brick press) produce a less-harsh after affect. It should still be addictive, but for example:
A regular pinch/grain found raw in the silt sea gives a -5 penalty when it wears off, and takes 3 game-hours to return back to normal as long as the person doesn't take another pinch/grain within that 3 hours.
A processed pinch (no grain - processed spice can't be reduced to grains) gives a -4 penalty when it wears off, and takes 2 game-hours to return to normal as long as the person doesn't take another pinch/grain within that 2 hours.
So people who are junkies in Tuluk will have a less difficult time of being junkies, but it'll still cost more since it's Kurac-made and therefore codedly superior products. People who are junkies but not in Tuluk will still have a few options: go to Luir's, go to Red Storm, or find someone who can do either on their behalf.
As a newbie I have to say I already like the concepts behind spice, my first PC had access to it through his contacts, yet was only prepared to use it as a last resort ICly. That was purely his IC choice as if I could, I wouldn't mind him snorting or smoking the stuff regularly - however he was more prone to want to keep a level head (didn't even drink much), however I would say that, it's good spice is expensive for the sake of realistic risk costs, good that it's harmful like real drugs - though even if not a lot of PCs are doing it, we can still assume there's plenty of vNPCs doing it regularly.
One thing that might be really interesting is a vNPC/NPC drug market in somewhere like Nak where the shady, rinth characters can try to make customers of NPCs, using the haggle skill to manipulate them into trying it. And then maybe say, every X amount of hours - can sell more to that NPC.
It's a bit of ambitious concept however it would make for drug dealers to set up territories, protecting their turf (their NPCs) to stop the other dealers moving in and taking over. That would at least solve the problem of PCs not being able to play as greasy street dealers, whilst not taking away from the negative sides to using the stuff for PCs.
Quote from: Lizzie on July 27, 2014, 07:57:25 AM
If anything, I'd say leave everything the way it is EXCEPT make *processed* spice (made by Kurac or whoever is in possession of the brick press) produce a less-harsh after affect.
I really, really like this idea. It makes the Professional Spice House's professional spice more valuable because of value added, rather than just because they happen to have the distribution network.
Crack vs Cocaine.
It'd be nice to see more Crack on the 'streets', be they the warrens or the Labyrinth. Everyone from the US Government down to the guy serving life in prison for possession of crack cocaine knows Crack is Legit. You take pure shit and cut it down with nasty shit, in order to make a larger profit (because who cares about who actually uses it). You'd think people in the Guild, and Kurac, would figure that out by now.
And, yes, it'd be nice to see the more processed stuff have maybe less 'harsh' effects. Just as addictive, just not as bad for you.
Another cool thing would be...
If Kurac sold a type of spice that rejuvenated your health. As in -- Repaired the damage that spice does to your body.
Keep a customer fit and healthy to keep smoking your product.
Make it pricy, difficult to get, and needing 'favors' in the same way Kemen is. Maybe they give it out for free to their soldiers and family members.
Howdy, that'd get Kurac deep in a lot of people's pockets.
I really like the ideas of enhancing kuraci spice and distinguishing processed vs raw vs cut with other shit. If all of those things could go into place, that'd be a cool addition to the economy and culture.
I support the idea of making changes to spice so that it is more highly sought after by more of the playerbase.
I have always felt it was a bit underrepresented in terms of how "awesome/addictive/beneficial" it should be on a coded level to help reinforce the demand for it from the players.
With that being said, it is probably a pretty fine line to walk between making it desirable and making it so desirable it becomes a distraction in the overall scope of the game.
I would hate to be the one trying to find that perfect middle ground. I want spice to be more desirable/sought after, but I don't want Armageddon to turn into, "Spice Wars". (Though some spice wars would be cool.)
I can sort of see the point of the OP, in consideration of stat-loss and spice-use.
I think an easy fix would be to make you sober up while logged off, to make it a bit easier to use spice without damaging your PC (though you can still decide to do that if you like).
Quote from: Reiloth on July 29, 2014, 12:19:00 PM
I can sort of see the point of the OP, in consideration of stat-loss and spice-use.
I think an easy fix would be to make you sober up while logged off, to make it a bit easier to use spice without damaging your PC (though you can still decide to do that if you like).
Yeah, I think this would be a great compromise fix. It certainly made alcohol playable (nothing like the days of logging off after a party RPT to log on 3 weeks later still plastered out of your mind).
I'm okay with spice effects wearing off while logged out, as long as it doesn't speed up the process. No instant recoveries out of convenience.
I personally would like to see the durration of spice lengthened. As it is right now, if you use war spice before you leave a city, it's liable to have worn off before you get into battle.
Quote from: Delirium on July 29, 2014, 12:54:32 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on July 29, 2014, 12:19:00 PM
I can sort of see the point of the OP, in consideration of stat-loss and spice-use.
I think an easy fix would be to make you sober up while logged off, to make it a bit easier to use spice without damaging your PC (though you can still decide to do that if you like).
Yeah, I think this would be a great compromise fix. It certainly made alcohol playable (nothing like the days of logging off after a party RPT to log on 3 weeks later still plastered out of your mind).
Derail : It's a bit of a bummer when the game crashes in the middle of a party, and you return dead cold sober.
Well, it's set on a timer, IIRC. You don't just auto-sober-up when you log in/out... do you? If you do yeah, that's a bit weird.
Quote from: Delirium on July 29, 2014, 02:51:23 PM
Well, it's set on a timer, IIRC. You don't just auto-sober-up when you log in/out... do you? If you do yeah, that's a bit weird.
It's odd, I'm not entirely sure how it works. If you are drunk and you log out or get disconnected, when you reconnect again I believe it says you are now sober.
That being said, the last time I got disconnected while I was drinking, I got the "you are now sober" message when reconnecting, then sipped another shot and was instantly extremely intoxicated.
Quote from: Delirium on July 29, 2014, 02:51:23 PM
Well, it's set on a timer, IIRC. You don't just auto-sober-up when you log in/out... do you? If you do yeah, that's a bit weird.
This is how I've seen it work. If my character has been drinking when I log out and I log back in, usually they're sober but sometimes they're still feeling the effects of the alcohol. It depends on how much time has passed and how much they've been drinking.
Quote from: Delirium on July 29, 2014, 12:54:32 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on July 29, 2014, 12:19:00 PM
I can sort of see the point of the OP, in consideration of stat-loss and spice-use.
I think an easy fix would be to make you sober up while logged off, to make it a bit easier to use spice without damaging your PC (though you can still decide to do that if you like).
It certainly made alcohol playable.
Let's please not give that retarded ass code too much credit.
?
Oh you mean don't give alcohol code too much credit.
Yeah -- It's a little silly. It'd be cool if it were a little more accurate (I personally wouldn't mind having PCs vomit before blacking out). And the tripping over yourself is a little silly (I've tripped over myself drunk, but only once, and the parking barrier really shouldn't have been in the middle of the sidewalk).
Regardless, it'd be nice if the spice timer went into play the same way alcohol did -- I think what's being mentioned above is a bit of a bug. I've noticed too it says 'You are now sober', but I think it's just because your sober level went down one notch.
Mmm, I meant drunk code in general, not the fact it goes away logged out(which is a godsend). Falling down that much is neither realistic nor enjoyable.
Maybe Zalanthas has different gravity. It explains all those giant insects or something too right?
Quote from: valeria on July 31, 2014, 08:50:38 AM
Maybe Zalanthas has different gravity. It explains all those giant insects or something too right?
If you want to explain giant insects, the best bet is actually higher oxygen content in the atmosphere. There used to be much larger insects on Earth, and the evidence suggests that the oxygen level was higher as well. Perhaps slightly less gravity could make it where their exoskeletons didn't need to be as thick, therefore lessening the 'choke point' downside that insects have at their joints due to the nature of their circulatory system. In fact, I'm not altogether sure that they could get as big as they are in Zalanthas at all, regardless of local gravity and oxygen. The limiting factor is the circulatory system, and I seem to remember some research declaring a maximum size (that wasn't all that big), but I'm not sure how many factors they were taking into account.
Quote from: racurtne on July 31, 2014, 11:24:26 AM
Quote from: valeria on July 31, 2014, 08:50:38 AM
Maybe Zalanthas has different gravity. It explains all those giant insects or something too right?
If you want to explain giant insects, the best bet is actually higher oxygen content in the atmosphere. There used to be much larger insects on Earth, and the evidence suggests that the oxygen level was higher as well. Perhaps slightly less gravity could make it where their exoskeletons didn't need to be as thick, therefore lessening the 'choke point' downside that insects have at their joints due to the nature of their circulatory system. In fact, I'm not altogether sure that they could get as big as they are in Zalanthas at all, regardless of local gravity and oxygen. The limiting factor is the circulatory system, and I seem to remember some research declaring a maximum size (that wasn't all that big), but I'm not sure how many factors they were taking into account.
This is pretty offtopic and going into quite a tangent, but, if Suk-Krath is a yellow sun much like earth's, solar radiation would cause a slow progressing strain of mutations (evolution) similar to the slow progression we experience, and such large bugs would possibly not require less gravity and their exoskeletons would not have 'choke points' because their bodies have evolved to work with higher levels of oxygen.
BACK ON TOPIC:
I don't think I've ever experienced spice enough to say whether or not it gives such crippling effects from little use, but I will say I've had a few characters which, after using spice, their fighting skills/other abilities are significantly hindered and often get critical hits landed on them and reel-locked over and over. Suffice to say, I've come to associate spice with the mantis head in the relatively short amount of time I've been playing.
Quote from: Cabooze on July 31, 2014, 05:21:46 PM
Quote from: racurtne on July 31, 2014, 11:24:26 AM
Quote from: valeria on July 31, 2014, 08:50:38 AM
Maybe Zalanthas has different gravity. It explains all those giant insects or something too right?
If you want to explain giant insects, the best bet is actually higher oxygen content in the atmosphere. There used to be much larger insects on Earth, and the evidence suggests that the oxygen level was higher as well. Perhaps slightly less gravity could make it where their exoskeletons didn't need to be as thick, therefore lessening the 'choke point' downside that insects have at their joints due to the nature of their circulatory system. In fact, I'm not altogether sure that they could get as big as they are in Zalanthas at all, regardless of local gravity and oxygen. The limiting factor is the circulatory system, and I seem to remember some research declaring a maximum size (that wasn't all that big), but I'm not sure how many factors they were taking into account.
This is pretty offtopic and going into quite a tangent, but, if Suk-Krath is a yellow sun much like earth's, solar radiation would cause a slow progressing strain of mutations (evolution) similar to the slow progression we experience, and such large bugs would possibly not require less gravity and their exoskeletons would not have 'choke points' because their bodies have evolved to work with higher levels of oxygen.
BACK ON TOPIC:
I don't think I've ever experienced spice enough to say whether or not it gives such crippling effects from little use, but I will say I've had a few characters which, after using spice, their fighting skills/other abilities are significantly hindered and often get critical hits landed on them and reel-locked over and over. Suffice to say, I've come to associate spice with the mantis head in the relatively short amount of time I've been playing.
Suk-Krath is actually quite large and red. Don't know how that affects mutations, but the visible spectrum is a bit on the low energy band. Whether it's a red giant or a red dwarf depends on the distance from the star, which, I'm not sure how possible it is for a planet with life to exist a particular distance from a star, bits of the aging cycle either blasting the atmosphere off the planet or simply destroying it, think a red dwarf would be late in the cycle, forget what all goes into the formation of those, and not sure of the potential problems resulting from having a small, rocky, life-bearing planet orbiting a red giant, or if that's even possible.
I would imagine the gravity of the planet would depend on the density. Obviously there's volcanic activity, diamonds and other gems, blah blah blah, as to what clues these offer, I don't know. Anyway, I guess the whole point is, trying to scientifically explain it may be a waste of time, it being a low-fantasy game, where any insurmountable difficulty in explanation could, in theory, just boil down to "because magick", or, "a wizard did it". Still, would be neat to have a good idea of how certain things came to be *eyes the black moon*. I don't really care as long as I'm having fun.
because magick
All hope for the original topic has been lost.
Is spice, really, just an RP tool that happens to have coded consequences? Granted, the 75 PCs that are around at any given time are OFTEN not the norm, but what would it take for a PC to be addicted to spice? Is making the effects of warspice last longer a good move, to make more people want it? Are the effects that one gains even worth the sniff?
Spice has it's place. It certainly has reasons for use, even from a coded standpoint, and it has reasons for not being used.
Quote from: valeria on July 25, 2014, 07:44:19 PM
Trying not to spoil anything but, having played a true addict, it feels to me like the part between when you become addicted and when your addiction becomes unplayable is relatively very short.
Sad, but true. And anyone trying to contest against this statement is simply in denial of the cold hard evidence.
However, when we consider that actual dosage amounts (of both spice
and alcohol) are not specific, we can then allow our characters some playable wiggle room within the code. For example, some wineglasses, teacups and mugs in game only allow our characters to "drink" from them once before they are completely empty. This should not mean Zalanthan drinking containters are all the equivalent of shot glasses in real world terms. It means you can RP drinking several times and then when reality would bring it to an empty state you apply the drink command.
And the same could be said of a roll of spice. If it takes two, three, or even four puffs only before the entire thing is gone, then reality dictates you're allowed to RP it lasting a bit longer than that. Ingest spice at the same speed a real world addict ingests their own drug of choice and you'll see just how quickly it is before you need to make a new character. If this is meant to reflect the reality of the situation then the word 'addict' in Sirihish should equate to the English phrase "will die some time this week". Fortunately, taking two or three drags from a cigarette are not enough to burn the entire substance to nothing -- unless you're letting it burn untouched half the time it's lit -- so we shouldn't interpret the code in exact terms. For those biblical literalists out there who cannot think outside the box and need laws, policies, and in Arm's case the code to speak for them, they should now be expected to RP that their mugs of ale are the size of thimbles :D
I just feel the need to add on the insect thing: I was being tongue-in-cheek. ;)
As for roleplaying spice lasting longer, I think that's fine. But the unplayable part I was talking about was when you start taking hits to states, as have been talked about before in this thread. In terms of caffeine addiction, I mostly go on my merry way having a cup of coffee in the morning. If I miss that cup of coffee, I get a headache and then usually have a soda or something in the afternoon so that I'm not shuffling through the rest of my day with a headache. In my admittedly limited experience, my spice addict treated spice addiction like that and spiraled downward very very fast.
Yes, spice isn't like coffee. But I've known other addicts (heroin with a friend, and a LOT of meth and cocaine through where I volunteer) who have gone into downward-spiraling addiction cycles like certain spices present. A spice addict who treats their spice addiction like I treat my coffee addiction is not going to last years. And that's really the only part that bothers me.
Quote from: MeTekillot on September 20, 2014, 11:28:19 PM
War spice should have more tangible effects on your ability to fight. For example, if you smoke enough of a certain type, you become hyper-aware and don't take penalties for fighting multiple opponents. Do you know how many people would actually want to buy spice if it let you do stuff like that?
Just storing Metekillot's comment from RAT in this thread
I like the idea of spices that do neat things. We have spices for stats, what about for skills?
Smoke some awareness spice and your scan skill goes up.
Smoke some precision spice and you land more hits than usual.
Seems a little bit... gamey though.
Magickers have a ton of spells and abilities that are very gamey, why should spice be any different?
Realism. Magick is magick. I guess spice can be magick too, but how far do you really want to push it, you know?
I'mnnot talking +5 tohit. I'm saying actual special effects. Along withthe usual stat buffs.
Idea'd this in game, but it'd be cool to have help files on spice habits and addiction/withdrawal.
Do people typically smoke a certain type of spice in certain areas? I imagine Thodeliv is harder to come across in places like the Labyrinth of Allanak and the Warrens of Tuluk. Do they prefer unrefined spice or refined spice in poor places?
I think currently the Screaming Mantis sells refined spice -- It might make more sense for them to only distribute unrefined, crappy grains (especially if people have to smoke more of it to get high, because that will probably get them addicted ALA crack).
As posted by the OP -- You are kind of not addicted to spice, and then you are. It might be cool if there was a lead up of withdrawal symptoms, or indications that you are getting hooked -- Echoes to the PC at first, but then visible hemote ticks that follow them around (Soandso twitches faintly.)
I actually love the addiction code, but it could be a little more nuanced.
When you're full blown addicted you should be getting feel echo's every in-game hour, reminding you of your craving until you smoke again. Mix them up so they don't get repetitive.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on September 21, 2014, 02:18:16 PM
When you're full blown addicted you should be getting feel echo's every in-game hour, reminding you of your craving until you smoke again. Mix them up so they don't get repetitive.
There's definitely reminders, but they're somewhat misleading -- Similar echoes to coming down off spice, but they fire off more frequently. It'd be cool if they were a different echo entirely, really driving home that you are addicted. Something like "Your body is racked with aches and pains, as you crave <insert spice>". Something better written than that, obviously.
Aggross making you regen hp in combat, damage is 3/4 because the pain is dulled
I think the spice echoes should tell you / imply that the effect endures (rather than being merely episodic).
Quote from: MeTekillot on September 21, 2014, 02:52:29 PM
Aggross making you regen hp in combat, damage is 3/4 because the pain is dulled
Dong can now be etwo'd as bludgeoning weapon.
Spice needs to wear off when you are not logged in the same manner as alcohol.
Quote from: KankWhisperer on September 21, 2014, 07:19:05 PM
Spice needs to wear off when you are not logged in the same manner as alcohol.
+1 for the realism!
Definitely yes.
I think that's how low playtime players get screwed. They can take a puff weeks apart in game, and it keeps stacking up as if they are constantly smoking. Meanwhile high play time spicer uses five times as much but the time in between it has a chance to wear off and makes it much harder to get addicted. That's my theory anyway.
Quote from: KankWhisperer on September 21, 2014, 07:19:05 PM
Spice needs to wear off when you are not logged in the same manner as alcohol.
(https://i.imgflip.com/cdaoc.jpg)
You could say the exact same thing about alcohol. :)
I'd like to be able to make that choice (whether my character is smoking while offline) and reflect it through in-game play rather than be forced into using that as an excuse for my character still being hopped on Krelez after that party three weeks ago.
(http://i57.tinypic.com/wv8zrs.jpg)
Quote from: Delirium on September 22, 2014, 09:11:27 PM
You could say the exact same thing about alcohol. :)
I'd like to be able to make that choice (whether my character is smoking while offline) and reflect it through in-game play rather than be forced into using that as an excuse for my character still being hopped on Krelez after that party three weeks ago.
Could say the same thing abour making a living. I'mm okay with my characters working in their offline time as long as they don't spend it all. I did write up the character description and background, I should at least get a cut of their profits!
But I'm with you on the spice.
Quote from: Saellyn on September 22, 2014, 09:11:53 PM
(http://i57.tinypic.com/wv8zrs.jpg)
True. But you never get pickpocketed while offline. You never get killed fighting gith/spiders/kryl offline. You never do lots of things you normally do unless you choose to say you did while offline. Why is spice different?
Why are people taking meme's seriously? They're jokes, people.
because matrix
You can get force stored while offline, though.