Spice: Realism vs Playability

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

IMHO, ICly, it makes sense if you want to be an addict, to join Kurac.

No. OOCly, it makes sense. ICly, Kurac isn't going to hire the average addict, and ICly, nobody wants to be an addict.

And it's the impression that x amount of spice makes you become an addict automatically, that hinders it from an, apparently, OOC standpoint. If you make addiction, instead of a cut and dry result, a randomized effect, that happens less rather than more, you create that hook, both ICly and OOCly, to smoke spice. Eventually, you have x amount of people smoking it, and there end up being more addicts anyway.

If you additionally take away all negative effects caused by addiction, as long as you are spiced, then it makes recovery less of a desire too, and lengthens the hook.

[Reiloth]

I think those are pretty black and white assumptions.

Why would Kurac not hire addicts, if they let their soldiers smoke spice, sometimes even on shift?

If the addict starts convulsing from withdrawals, or robbing people in the Outpost to get money to buy spice, they'd probably fire him (or permanently fire him via execution).

Just speaking from an addiction standpoint IRL, that's not how addiction works. You come down, it sucks, and you want to use again to feel high (and not sick).

I'm also not certain the Chemists and Scientists working for Kurac could figure out a way to eliminate the negative effects from spice. We are talking about a pre-bronze age society here.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Why would Kurac not hire addicts, if they let their soldiers smoke spice, sometimes even on shift?

If the addict starts convulsing from withdrawals, or robbing people in the Outpost to get money to buy spice, they'd probably fire him (or permanently fire him via execution).

You're right. I was thinking of the addled when I said addict, and not just a fairly normal person who's addicted.

Just speaking from an addiction standpoint IRL, that's not how addiction works. You come down, it sucks, and you want to use again to feel high (and not sick).

Yes, I know. As I said, "If you additionally take away all negative effects caused by addiction, as long as you are spiced, then it makes recovery less of a desire too, and lengthens the hook." I've bolded the matching portions in both yours and my statements.

I'm also not certain the Chemists and Scientists working for Kurac could figure out a way to eliminate the negative effects from spice. We are talking about a pre-bronze age society here.

This isn't exactly a pre-bronze age civilization, but it's very close, true. And I doubt the Age matters much; after all, we can't even do that these days. Additionally, I wouldn't want to see the negative effects removed - but I could imagine that they might be able to make spice more potent and thus last longer, while keeping the effects the same or lessening them.

[Harmless]

I removed Lizzie's spoiler.

There's only really one issue here then--you don't know enough about how it works.  And that can be learned in-game.  The reason I removed Lizzie's spoiler isn't because it's some massive secret or anything, but because it's not in the documentation and it would be better for you to figure it out yourself.  Some IC systems take some learning.  The brew system is one system that took me years to even understand that it was a system unlike crafting.  It follows rules, but you have to learn them!  I take it that this may be your first character that used spice in any significant way.  You are under an impression about the coded effects of spice that simply isn't true.  You're missing a piece of the puzzle.  If you're waiting for the high to wear off and then immediately getting high again, you actually aren't waiting for the effects to wear off...you're just waiting for the high to wear off.  And yes, that's the kind of behavior a complete addict would shoot for.  You are playing a spice addict, then, whether you realize it or not.

Anyway, more people should use spice in-game.  

To the best of my ability, I was trying to play the "responsible" smoker. I was giving it a healthy delay between uses. Sometimes several IC days, other times it felt like about a day or more. In between smoking my PC did other things -- did trades, went out foraging, sat in a bar. Then, another hit. That kind of deal; the "weekend" smoker, if you will, of Zalanthas. Yet, the negatives of spice were rapidly piling up, apparently.

Maybe the secondary effect of smoking should be allowed to time down while logged off, similar to alcohol. Maybe there's something here I'm missing, because I'm not meticulously keeping track of IC hours that pass between hits, etc, because I'm not trying to game the system.

What I perceived was something unexpected: the negatives of spice happening far too early in my PC's career of use to make sense to me. It's my opinion that it should be "lightened up" because it just feels too harsh to be fun to use casually. If you want spice to be something PCs only use when "absolutely needed," or for "flavor" purposes, then the system as it is now is fine. If you want spice to be something PCs want to use, to make the temptation of use vs. the illegality in Allanak a real difficult decision, then I recommend that such timers be made more lax or that they at least be allowed to tick off when not logged in.

[Nyr]

I see what you mean now...the lack of effects being reduced offline can be confusing, seeing as how the outlier is alcohol (after 2008).  I'll discuss with some coding staff to see what improvements could be made to spice, but keep in mind that any changes for playability may include changes that retain like-to-like detriments (and perhaps changes to documentation).

[Harmless]

thank you!

[Reiloth]

On the same token, it'd be cool if Alcohol had lingering effects as well (Detrimental that could be overcome by continuing to drink), to level the playing field between spice and alcohol, so people could choose to be an alcoholic, spice-addict, or both if they liked.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Overcome by continuing to drink? Heh. How about you get tougher (more physical resistance) but dumber and slower, as well as have a chance for a short-lived multiple rage? Unlike most spice alcohol is a depressant,  I think, while spice tends to be a steroid.

[Reiloth]

Well, there's so many different brands. Elation, aggression, acute awareness, and complete numbness.

It'd be cool if Alcohol eventually dehydrates you, reduces wisdom, and if you continue drinking after you've already blacked out several times, you start to develop environmental echoes. Almost reminders to drink. Haha.

When you drink, the echoes go away (Shaky hands?), and you feel normal.

That'd sure throw a wrench at Sun Runners, haha.

[LauraMars]

I like the current spice addiction code.  I feel like it hits you with some real consequences but allows you enough room to RP your addiction however you like.

I wouldn't mind if it was changed or fleshed out a bit though.

[Harmless]

Well, there's so many different brands. Elation, aggression, acute awareness, and complete numbness.

It'd be cool if Alcohol eventually dehydrates you, reduces wisdom, and if you continue drinking after you've already blacked out several times, you start to develop environmental echoes. Almost reminders to drink. Haha.

When you drink, the echoes go away (Shaky hands?), and you feel normal.

That'd sure throw a wrench at Sun Runners, haha.

Yeah, this'd be awesome.

[Lizzie]

Sending Nyr a request about his latest post where he says he'll take a look at the "logged out" end of spice. Also - thanks for re-phrasing the post you deleted from me in a non-spoilerish way. Hopefully some who were under certain impressions, will realize their perception isn't exactly what they think it is

[valeria]

Trying not to spoil anything but, having played a true addict, it feels to me like the part between when you become addicted and when your addiction becomes unplayable is relatively very short.

[Bushranger]

OH WAIT

Spice Addiction is harsh but it really should be. I often let my characters have a spice problem and you shouldn't avoid things you know will be detrimental. Playing Armageddon is like playing Dwarf Fortress, there is no way to win anything instead play to have FUN! I agree that perhaps the code can be tinkered with so that, like alcohol, the timers can continue while a character is logged off but I do not think that the penalties should be any less than they are currently. Some of my most fun characters were dirty, poor degenerates and you really do need the detriments to back that up.

[Barzalene]

I just wish my down and out pcs who need some escape could afford to be addicts. (I know, I'm just repeating myself now. Last time. Promise.)

[Lizzie]

I just wish my down and out pcs who need some escape could afford to be addicts. (I know, I'm just repeating myself now. Last time. Promise.)

They can. The truly degenerate can sift spice for free, after the initial investment of the price of the sifter. (I know, I'm just repeating myself now. Last time. Promise."

[racurtne]

You know you're addicted when you walk all the way to Red Storm from Tuluk just to get your fix.

[Barzalene]

I just wish my down and out pcs who need some escape could afford to be addicts. (I know, I'm just repeating myself now. Last time. Promise.)

They can. The truly degenerate can sift spice for free, after the initial investment of the price of the sifter. (I know, I'm just repeating myself now. Last time. Promise."

That's great if you play in Storm. Degeneracy should not be geographically dependent. That's like saying if you want to be a junkie, but you don't want to rob liquor stores or steal copper wire you should harvest your own poppies. ... In Afghanistan.

[Fujikoma]

Personally, I think more plots would be advanced if a certain common blunder more often resulted in arrest and a rather long imprisonment (so a Templar or the Militia gets time to respond) rather than *splat*. The people who are knowingly breaking the law aren't going to get caught, while the person who has no idea gets crushed. At least a little more RP than "does horrific things to your head" would be good, though I could be wrong.

[RogueGunslinger]

You've being vague so this could be a swing and a miss.

I know crim-code gets a lot of flack on the GDB. But seriously... I've never had a character killed who didn't resist. And you don't resist by default. The only way you get splatted is if you're actively attacking someone(like, say with 'kick' in a bar brawl) or have 'nosave arrest' on.

Perhaps to help this, nosave-arrest could default to off at log in? That way to actively resist arrest you have to knowingly turn if off before you commit a crime. This could help that veteran Kuraci employee who turned off their nosave arrest eight months ago while they were in Tuluk doing something shady, then decided to visit Allanak to brag with a forgotten tube of spice in their inventory.

[Lizzie]

I just wish my down and out pcs who need some escape could afford to be addicts. (I know, I'm just repeating myself now. Last time. Promise.)

They can. The truly degenerate can sift spice for free, after the initial investment of the price of the sifter. (I know, I'm just repeating myself now. Last time. Promise."

That's great if you play in Storm. Degeneracy should not be geographically dependent. That's like saying if you want to be a junkie, but you don't want to rob liquor stores or steal copper wire you should harvest your own poppies. ... In Afghanistan.

No, it's more like - if you live in Rochester and want to score a dime-bag of heroin, you need to head to Manhattan unless you don't mind paying a premium for stuff from your neighbors.

[Barzalene]

Made new post when I meant to edit

[Barzalene]

Ten and a half hours round trip for cheaper dope might be reasonable for the occasional user, but for the hardcore junkie it's not feasible. And while some junkies may relocate to Nepal, most do not.

[solera]

An awful lot of western tree hugging druggies ended up in Nepal. Isn't it the same in Storm?

[Ghaati111]

An awful lot of western tree hugging druggies ended up in Nepal. Isn't it the same in Storm?

I didn't know about the Nepal thing so maybe?