Oh by the way, I think listen skill as conjugate working with read lips.

So better the listen skill, better the read lips.  So sometimes you hear sometimes you see.  And thus it is possible to "listen" a dwarf's whisper from 50 ft away.

Quote from: "X-D"I like listen as is, it is not over powered in any way...There is nothing about the current incarnation of the listen skill that is impossible or even improbable.

The biggest defect to the skill in my opinion is that your proficiency, as a tavern eavesdropper, becomes irrelevant.  If listen is up, you miss nothing, regardless of how good or bad you are at listening.

A starting char can spam listen on and begin his world of spying without dropping a beat.  That's unrealistic.  The only other skill I can think of that's 'broken' to a similar effect is brew.

Cenghiz and Ghost answered CRW for me.

Lazloth, I do agree, but really, I don't see it as being a major problem and in dire need of a rework or anything..if at all.

Quote from: "Ghost"So better the listen skill, better the read lips.  So sometimes you hear sometimes you see.  And thus it is possible to "listen" a dwarf's whisper from 50 ft away.

Ok, that makes a good degree of sense, though lip-reading has never been implied in the docs, but I can suck for that.

What about the dozens of other people talking at varying proximities to you, are you reading their lips as well?  Daredevil super power testamonials aside, I don't believe it's possible.

What's the huge effect to complain about?

CRW wrote:

QuoteI don't believe it's possible.

Then it is not possible....for you, defeated before you began.

Might as well not bother posting again on the subject, as on a message board there is -no- way to prove that it -is- possible.

But maybe, before you pass judgement without knowledge, you should at least make a real attempt at what I said on earlier posts...TRY IT. Practice, work, train your mind to actually "hear and NOTICE" things that are normaly filtered out as noise. The only thing I can prove to you is that "hearing" is in the brain, the ears only transform the stimulus into a code the brain can decipher.

QuoteWhat about the dozens of other people talking at varying proximities to you

Every little soundwave in that room hits your eardrums and is sent to the brain, but what is deciphered as language and what is left to noise is totally dependant on the training YOU have given your brain.

Speaking for myself, I can barely make out conversations at two tables if I pay attention, but I never trained myself, so it may be possible. Anyhow, I wanted to touch the issue of everyone paying so much attention to information in Zalanthas. I can see important people understanding its importance. But your average ignorant commoner would be careful of what they speak in a tavern because all those people sitting with their chairs against the far wall are automagickally listening over all the tables? 'Take your secrets elsewhere' is irrelevant in a debate about whether the listen skill gives more information than a listener should get. You say the listener decides what they hear and what not? Honestly, how many players would dismiss a line about a friend or something said in the bar while they are eavesdropping on another table, as noise their character didn't pay attention to? Furthermore, if it was noise, then maybe they shouldn't have the ability to make out all the words in the first place.

And the lip-reading thing. If you want to read my lips, I would expect you to emote watching me very attentively.

That's the idea.  The keywords of your friend come up, and bam.  There's the interest.

That makes good sense. Its actually why I refrained from saying you, or someone you work for, or the Templarate. But, if you are passively hearing something in a tavern, with so many other things you hear at the same time, would you pick such keywords up?

I can be in a party, and hear a person completely across the room filled with two dozen people talk about going to smoke a bowl.

And that's when I'm drunk.  And when I'm not paying attention to -any- of their conversation before.  There's your evidence!  

Quote from: "Cenghiz"Nope... It means you probably have a disability in your seeing. I can't see in darkness. It's a disability that can't be cured. I seem to hear very well, much better than an average human. I have blind friends that can hear anything.

Very good point. I didnt think of it that way. Though I still think it's unrealistic to be able to hear 'everything' said in a room even if you are involved in a deep conversation of your own. Gotta love those pcs that will 'directly' quote you back verbatum that were sparring/etc while you were having a quiet conversation away from the ring.

Quote from: "Ghost"So better the listen skill, better the read lips.  So sometimes you hear sometimes you see.  And thus it is possible to "listen" a dwarf's whisper from 50 ft away.

Yes, some people are great at reading lips but again, if you arent LOOKING at thim, you cant read their lips. You cant be looking at everyone at the same time to be able to read their lips all simultaneously. I would prefer it coming across with words dropped, in simulation of your attention turning briefly to another conversation with an ability to 'listen' to a certain table or pc and not be able to hear anything else but what's said out loud or at your table. But I figure that's probably nigh near impossible to code.

Quote from: "Armaddict"That's the idea.  The keywords of your friend come up, and bam.  There's the interest.

I do agree, keywords you pick up on. I sit an aisle away from my boss at work. I can 'hear' him talk but NOT what he's saying unless I ignore everyone else talking on the phone and between each other. Because then I am focused on his conversation. Since I am interested in what 'he' has to say, I tune out the others around me to focus on that. Usually because I am the only female in his quadrant and if I hear him say 'she' or 'Lisa' I know the conversation he's having is about me and my area. But if nothing piques my interest, then his voice is just background noise that I am not focusing on and I couldnt tell you what he was talking about other than that I know my boss is in his cubicle.

I do have to give kudos to those that posted keeping it civil and the personal insults to the minimum. Thanks for everyone's perspective on the subject.

Listen should not be an all or nothing skill. I'm in favor of the dropped words thing. I imagine some code similar to the language code could be used. That way, if you and a friend are both listening in the same bar, you two could piece together the different parts of the conversation you heard.

While I admit it's unrealistic, I -still- see no good reason for it to be changed to favor the higher realism.

Basically, it's taking a skill that you have to be fairly lucky, stealthy, and daring to get anything out of, and reducing your chances that are slim -anyway-.

If you could state something besides realism as the reason for change, something that really needed to be addressed, then I'd be for it.  But until then, I still think that it's a waste of coder's time and energy since there are no real ill effects of how it is right now.

The reason it should be changed is because being an eavesdropping spy is too easy.  People do unrealistic things because it is too easy to hear everything they say from across the crowded, noisy bar.  THAT is why there should be a change.

Yeah, we should make 'say' only visible to people on one side of the room, as well.  Hell, let's divide every room into two, or four.  Because when you use 'say', it's so much -louder- then when you use 'say', only it's directed at your table by using 'talk'.

Make every room actually four.  That way you can have the people by -that- table, the people by -that- table, and so on.

You guys are making way too much of a deal over 'you can hear this from across the room'.  You can hear -any- mode of speech from across the room.  The only difference is, 'talk' is directed at those at your table.  It's not -lower volume- than anything else.

So hear hear!  Let's make say and tell only hearable in bar rooms with 'listen', eliminate hearing 'talk', and make it so that only by 'shout'ing can everyone in the room hear you.

Yes, I will conclude with [/sarcasm]

Quote from: "spawnloser"The reason it should be changed is because being an eavesdropping spy is too easy.  People do unrealistic things because it is too easy to hear everything they say from across the crowded, noisy bar.  THAT is why there should be a change.

Agreed.

Despite sarcasm and some getting touchy on the subject, I still think this was a good discussion all around.

Now, it was asked for a good reason why this should be changed and I didnt want to be insulting so insinuated my reasons in my posts. Let me put it bluntly.

Players cant seem to separate where code lets them do things and what they SHOULD be able to do. There. Said it. I have great skill at listening but I chose to ignore a lot I hear because, in my honest opinion, I wouldnt hear, much less be able to COMPLETELY quote, someone whom was sitting across the tavern from me. OOCLY, yes, I can. I have logs I can make, a large scroll back, etc. If I was focusing on listening to their conversation, I might be able to hear it but what about all the wandering people between me and them? What about loud bursts of laughter and low talk at the tables? What about rp that shows them trying to talk low and etc. There are a lot of factors in there and not just the amount of pcs and words scrolling by.

Its sort of no different than someone being ridden up on in the desert and the immediate:

run
eeesesenenwnnnneennee  enter village

People, not all but some, will justify that because code allows it, its IC. Granted, that will ALWAYS happen but this forum IS for discussing code and such. There is never a stupid question or a suggestion. Some are feasible, others are not on a coding stance. Some might be worth looking into but not until more important things are dealt with. But in the end, each suggestion can lead to more thought in how to improve the game or how to improve one's rp.

So if you wish to be sarcastic or such, that is your choice. I hope others got a lot from this conversation and again, I appreciate all the opinions.

Quote from: "Armaddict"I can be in a party, and hear a person completely across the room filled with two dozen people talk about going to smoke a bowl.

And that's when I'm drunk.  And when I'm not paying attention to -any- of their conversation before.  There's your evidence!  

Anecdotal evidence is the most reliable!

Quote from: "Carnage"

Quote from: "Armaddict"I can be in a party, and hear a person completely across the room filled with two dozen people talk about going to smoke a bowl.

And that's when I'm drunk.  And when I'm not paying attention to -any- of their conversation before.  There's your evidence!  

Anecdotal evidence is the most reliable!

Single sentence sarcastic refutations of humorous points prove you have a big dick.

Quote from: "Agent_137"

Quote from: "Carnage"

Quote from: "Armaddict"I can be in a party, and hear a person completely across the room filled with two dozen people talk about going to smoke a bowl.

And that's when I'm drunk.  And when I'm not paying attention to -any- of their conversation before.  There's your evidence!  

Anecdotal evidence is the most reliable!

Single sentence sarcastic refutations of humorous points prove you have a big dick.

Dude, that makes mine GIGANTIC.

*spec apps a gargantuan elven-codpiece*

AGAIN

ForestJunkie has a perfectly valid argument, who are all of you to auto-magically assume that the zalanthan individual's auditory stystem is even remotely similar to a rl human auditory system. You have no base from which to argue, because until there is a doc that says "And Zalanthan being's ears function very much the same as a rl human's ears" you have nothing to go off of. Keep in mind also that our PC's are not your average joe schmoe salt sifter that can barely lift an obsidian sword, we are the elite of the elite, the "heroes" if you will, of this world. In most cases (Yes I know some of you will say "But I have poor wisdom" and if you do, then roleplay accordingly) the average pc has a far higher intelligence than the dung shoveler next door. This allows him to perhaps listen to multiple conversations at once and sort through them in his mind with perfection. And as always, until I see a doc, Im going with what currently works.

I was once told by a certain immortal that a certain clan just may have a psion watching all members at all times, and thats how they know exactly what goes on with my pc at all times....and if that is a legitimate excuse...then enhanced auditory systems, is definantly in the feasable grid.

Quote from: "WhiteRanger"..who are all of you to auto-magically assume that the zalanthan individual's auditory stystem is even remotely similar to a rl human auditory system. You have no base from which to argue, because until there is a doc that says "And Zalanthan being's ears function very much the same as a rl human's ears" you have nothing to go off of.

Rent a clue, man.  Ears is ears.

Not really.  Things can be vastly different, but that's not going to be my huge argument.

The cost to benefit of doing it is just...high.  The only real reason to do it, is, in fact, realism.

But, in that case, -I- want some new code in.  Whenever someone is out in the desert, and it's dark, but they're smoking spice?  I'm usually the ranger in the next room.  I want them to be targetable with my arrows, so that I can snipe them by seeing the cherry of that spice.  Just 'shoot spice w' would work wonderfully.

There you go, another case of what -should- be in for realism (This is how Carlos Hathcock's friend was sniped in Vietnam), but there's no real benefit for fixing it.  The reason that listen is the same?

Listen, just like above code, hardly ever pays off for what you want it for.  Sure, now you can hear the whole room, but you know what that whole room speaks about?  BLATHER.  Listen is far more widely used as a tool for -not being bored- when you're in a tavern alone then active, 100% around the clock I'm a sneaky spy bastard.  Even if it was changed, people would -still- be smart and take private conversations somewhere private, listeners -still- wouldn't get much unless they knew how to use it combined with stealth and pure -balls-, going into situations where they'd likely die if caught, and listeners would just be left staring at periods for the first ten days of their character.

So...where's the benefit?

Quote from: "WhiteRanger"AGAIN
You have no base from which to argue, because until there is a doc that says "And Zalanthan being's ears function very much the same as a rl human's ears" you have nothing to go off of.

This is the old and fallacious argument that can be extrapolated to claims such as "Elves actually hear with their knees! I won't believe otherwise until the docs contradict me." The docs usually note departures from what might be expected in an Earth physique, and it's assumed points of similarity need not be touched on.

Quote from: "WhiteRanger"This allows him to perhaps listen to multiple conversations at once and sort through them in his mind with perfection. And as always, until I see a doc, Im going with what currently works.

I don't believe anyone ever suggested Zalanthans are more intelligent than we are. Hence, I refuse to believe in their capacity to track a full room's worth of conversations of chattering patrons at once.

In any case, whatever Zalanthan abilities may be like, the fact remains that listen is an on/off skill where it should be a steadily improving one. Half-trained listeners shouldn't be able to pick up everything going on in a tavern, and indeed RP is likely to be rendered more interesting as they strain to fill the gaps in the conversation with their own extrapolations - even the dull conversations might sound that bit more interesting. Besides, as CRW has pointed out, people might get a little less cautious about opening their mouth in public, and skilled listeners would likely reap the benefits.

Quirk

I disagree about people becoming less cautious.

I know, for one, that I wouldn't.  And I know that I'm not alone.  I'm not going to start discussing things in a public place, thinking, "Oh, they toned down listen.  It's safe here.  Discuss away!"  I'm still going to go along the exact same lines of thinking.  "This is a public place, and I'm not discussing a private matter that I don't want other people overhearing."

After all, it's a -tavern-.  There are going to be people close enough to hear -all- the time.

Quote from: "Lazloth"Ears is ears.

Well, now that's not entirely true, is it?  Bat ears differ greatly from human ears.  Dog ears are very different from both bat and human ears.  Lizard ears are not the same as dog, bat, or human ears.

But what you're talking about isn't -hearing-.  What you're actually discussing in this thread is the brain's ability to process incoming auditory data.  Note the "cocktail party effect" as defined here.  The problem is the same as with any kind of computed signal processing - throughput and memory.  The essential difficulty is that there is a limit to how much data the brain can process at once, and a limit to how much data can be stored to process at any given time.

We have limited auditory memory; research suggests that auditory memory in humans is capable of holding about 10 pieces of information for adults (a google search for "average adult auditory memory" produces more information than I can process ).  We also have limited processing capabilities; I wasn't able to quickly find any hard numbers, but it really isn't important - the point is the same - at some point the rate that data comes in exceeds the rate at which you can process it, at which point your auditory memory fills up, and you start losing data.  Skilled listeners are capable of more rapidly processing auditory data, and have larger auditory memory.  

Now, I think accurately simulating this in game would be entirely too difficult.  In fact, most levels of coded simulation would leave out too many factors, such as the apparent ability of people to pick up on keywords in conversations that they are not actually paying attention to and rapidly shift their attention to devote some resources to that conversation.

Therefore, I would be against changing the listen skill.  In a crowded tavern, if you have the listen skill and everyone is talking at once, it's hard enough to keep track of what everyone is typing anyway; I see no reason to add coded complications that could never reasonably account for what humans are truly capable of processing, with practice.