In response to recent changes made by the staff to fix room-storage-limit abuses, I'm going to outline part of why I think some of this abuse has happened. Some of it undoubtedly has happened because players simply want to store more stuff than they reasonably should; however, part of it is probably because the way room-storage limits currently work with containers is wacky and difficult to work around. Note that this is all from my personal observation--I don't for sure know how the code works--but I've arranged a lot of rooms for storage and it's always a terrible headache. So take this as a very educated guess.
To illustrate, let's say that you (Amos) have just rented a nifty room in Tuluk--which happens to be completely, 100% empty since the renter right before you was kind enough to rent it specifically for the purpose of looting all the stuff. Renting a room is fun! Now let's decorate and organize. You run out and buy a couple of baskets and a couple of chests from the local shops so that you can organize your clothing, weapons, food, tools, whatnot.
You return to your room after purchasing.
> drop chest
A wooden chest is here, engraved with stuff, lookin' pimp.
> feel pleased
> drop chest
There is no more room for that here.
think wtf?!?
> drop basket
There is no more room for that here.
> feel totally puzzled at the fact that this reasonably expansive apartment has room for ONLY ONE DAMN CHEST in it
You see, what you (Amos) do not know is that all of the "space" in that apartment was magickally sucked into the vortex of the chest when you dropped it, leaving less space outside the chest than is now inside it. Your room started with something like 200 stones' worth of storage in it, and because the empty chest is capable of storing up to 140 stones' worth, you now only have 60 stones left; which is definitely not enough for placing another chest or even the 70-stone basket you bought.
Now, if you (Amos) want to actually organize all your stuff--have the food in one container and the clothes in another container and the armor in another and the weapons in yet another and so on--what you are going to have to do is attempt to find containers that are small enough to divide up the space for you, yet large enough to actually put stuff in. There are not many ways to do this in a non-crazy-making fashion; using a bunch of bags is problematic because then you (Amos) are left with ten "a small bag"s in the chest, and no idea what might be in them until you get them out and look. Dropping bags all over the floor of your room, where you can then use ldescs to organize them a little, looks cluttered and wasn't the pimping style you were going for--and you'll still have a really hard time figuring out what is where.
The best overall solution would be for the code to be changed so that a container only takes up the amount of weight-space equivalent to its own weight, plus the weight of the stuff that is in it.
The next best solution would be for markets in the cities to provide an array of smaller containers that can be purchased in order to organize stuff. If there were multiple baskets or chests that could be purchased in the 50-stone range, I think that would help. (I don't actually know the weight-space limits of apartment rooms, but I'm guessing from experience that they are often in the 200-300 range.) With the ability to put 3 or 4 containers of reasonable size and diversity (for targeting and ID purposes) in a room, players wouldn't pull their hair out over storage quite so much.
+1
The smaller containers exist, but their availability is not so great. The current limits to some rooms could stand to be looked over (if they haven't been already). If the way containers contribute their space to the room was changed from the weight they can contain to the weight of the chest + the items in the chest, that would be good too.
Edit to add: Though I can see how that could be problematic. If you try to put something into a chest that would make the room's weight exceed the limit, what would happen?
"There's not enough room in the chest" - well, yes there is, but placing it in will make the chest too heavy. Is that reasonable? Hmm.
Quote from: Cutthroat on September 24, 2009, 04:00:44 PM
"There's not enough room in the chest" - well, yes there is, but placing it in will make the chest too heavy. Is that reasonable? Hmm.
That's how the code already basically works, in this version of ARM anyways. There's no calculation for the bulk of an item, just the weight; the weight alone determines whether there is space for the object.
Ideally, I guess both bulk and weight would matter. But for the purposes of re-decorating the interior of Tek's Tower (my latest job! love Tek, great boss, but I haveta do good or he's gonna kill me!), weight is what matters right now.
Again agreed with Gimf...I must have the flu.
I also find it interesting that staff fixed a workaround to a problem rather then fixing the problem that needed the workaround to begin with.
In the past staff has said what the code is and what the problem is.
Rooms have a weight limit. Containers have weights but they also have weight limits. For some odd reason the room weight limit looks at the container weight limit not the container weight.
So, a room can be set to 400 stone, which is a goodly amount, but that same room also says it is 20x20 cords and the 2 chests you got both say 2x3 cords...easily fit in the room yes? No, because even though both chests only weigh 40 stone they can hold 270 stone each, which is beyond the room limit.
So hey, how about fixing the problem now that you have fixed the workaround?
Quote from: X-D on September 24, 2009, 04:08:53 PM
I also find it interesting that staff fixed a workaround to a problem rather then fixing the problem that needed the workaround to begin with.
The stuff in this thread (whether it is an issue or not) is separate from the stuff that was fixed.
Regardless of the weight of the container itself or the weight of what was in it or whether it was even a container, it could be dragged in. That was fixed.
Most apartments (as far as I can tell) are set to about 1000 stone as the weight limit (by default).
The code uses the capacity of the container as an approximation of how much of the room's space is used by the item, not necessarily to cover the issue of the floor collapsing from too much weight (although that certainly is an issue with the rooms that are over limits right now).
The minimum size we set on rooms is 1000 stones. Most baskets can contain between 8 and 50 stones, depending on the size and material of the basket. Chests can go up to around 200 stones. There should be no room that has issues with putting two baskets and a chest in the room.
Take a log of any issues you have where you think realistically you should be able to put more in a room than you can and mail it to me and cc mud and I will investigate it and either increase the limit in the room or let you know why I disagree.
Does built-in furniture like beds, shelves, tables, etc. count against the weight-space limit? Because I have never experienced an apartment feeling like it had 1000 stones of weight-space in it. There have been many times where I've encountered rooms I couldn't put more than not-nearly-enough containers down.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 24, 2009, 04:18:02 PM
Does built-in furniture like beds, shelves, tables, etc. count against the weight-space limit? Because I have never experienced an apartment feeling like it had 1000 stones of weight-space in it. There have been many times where I've encountered rooms I couldn't put more than not-nearly-enough containers down.
Yes any objects in the room (containers, beds, clothes, furniture, etc...) are all counted in the current bulk of what's in the room. You can clean up your room and put clothes away and the like to reduce your footprint.
We all understand that Nyr.
I just do not agree that fixing that problem before fixing the problem that caused the fixed problem to be used was the correct way to go about it.
Hence, a thread asking that how rooms deal with weights and containers gets fixed or even that more smaller containers other then bags become available.
And Morg, Maybe there are simply to many massive containers and they should be looked at as well.
Often the mdesc of a container item is not too accurate to what it can hold. I can think of three right now, two sold in Tuluk that carry WAY over 200 stone and one in nak that is almost double that...but they are not described as room filling entities.
Edit
Oh, and built in items count against room weight? EEEWWWW!
But I hate storing stuff on the bed (the item taking up 500 stone of space) And lets face it, storing logs in a dresser is pretty silly...though the dresser is taking up another 200 stone, no wonder I can only drop one trunk...sigh.
Quote from: Morgenes on September 24, 2009, 04:19:40 PM
Yes any objects in the room (containers, beds, clothes, furniture, etc...) are all counted in the current bulk of what's in the room. You can clean up your room and put clothes away and the like to reduce your footprint.
Do you know what the typical weight of a built-in bed is? By definition, a PC can't clean up the stuff that is built-in to the room. If I'm an indie merchant and I really want to use the room for crafting rather than for sleeping in--say, I'd prefer to put a pallet down and sleep on that, rather than waste space with a bed--then having a bed that I can't get rid of taking up 300 stones of space is problematic.
There is just not enough flexibility in the system right now, from what I have experienced.
Quote from: X-D on September 24, 2009, 04:20:27 PM
And Morg, Maybe there are simply to many massive containers and they should be looked at as well.
Often the mdesc of a container item is not too accurate to what it can hold. I can think of three right now, two sold in Tuluk that carry WAY over 200 stone and one in nak that is almost double that...but they are not described as room filling entities.
Edit
Oh, and built in items count against room weight? EEEWWWW!
But I hate storing stuff on the bed (the item taking up 500 stone of space) And lets face it, storing logs in a dresser is pretty silly...though the dresser is taking up another 200 stone, no wonder I can only drop one trunk...sigh.
You could try renting something that comes unfurnished, or you could put in a request to have the built-in furniture removed. We'd be happy to help you rp that.
As to specific items that have too high of a capacity, feel free to mail me the specific sdescs of the objects (and any other information you can on them like where they could be purchased, or if they are crafted) and I'll look at them.
Just out of curiosity, is this something that will only be affecting apartments, or will it also affect storage areas in tribal encampments and GMH crafting halls and bunk rooms?
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on September 24, 2009, 04:48:59 PM
Just out of curiosity, is this something that will only be affecting apartments, or will it also affect storage areas in tribal encampments and GMH crafting halls and bunk rooms?
Any room with a weight limit will be affected by these changes.
I know this has most likely been stated but what will happen with the stuff that exceeds the rooms weight limit?
Brandon
Nothing, until we warn you about it and you acknowledge that you have received that warning.
E.G., no automated dumping of your items over the max limit. It's a code exploit that allowed it, and we'll give you time to rectify the situation.
I still very firmly believe that we could use some attention given to the number, size, diversity, and availability of containers for use in organizing rooms.
For what it's worth, I agree with you, but I currently lack the time to administrate this.
Fair enough. Can't you torture one of the Storytellers with this assignment or something? :D (And if not, then what's the point of all your status, Nyr, huh?!)
Sometimes there's no good solution imminent, I get that. Thanks for listening to our frustrations anyways.
Quote from: Nyr on September 24, 2009, 05:32:18 PM
For what it's worth, I agree with you, but I currently lack the time to administrate this.
Perhaps players could help via the submissions forum somehow? After all ... we outnumber you >:(
Do half-giants count against the weight limits of rooms with weight limits? If they don't, I really think they should. I have seen too many half-giants on tiny staircases and little lofts and balconies. It should factor in, especially if a room is near its weight limit and an armored half-giant or two walk in (or seventeen heavily armored Bynners, or an inix that someone forgot to unhitch).
That sounds like a serious problem for a merchant house that stores a lot of resources and goods. Especially since most only have one storeroom maybe two SAVE rooms for these items.
GMH store rooms might have a storage limit well over the 1000 given to a typical apartment.
I don't know that or anything, I'm just saying ... Nyr said most apartments ... not every one.
Quote from: slipshod on September 24, 2009, 09:33:36 PM
Do half-giants count against the weight limits of rooms with weight limits? If they don't, I really think they should. I have seen too many half-giants on tiny staircases and little lofts and balconies. It should factor in, especially if a room is near its weight limit and an armored half-giant or two walk in (or seventeen heavily armored Bynners, or an inix that someone forgot to unhitch).
PC/NPC size is handled through exit limits. For playability reasons we have removed considering the people and their weight in the size of a room. We had issues where an npc would wander into a room and put it over limit and noone could get inside.
I haven't really been participating in the forums, but I found this thread interesting.
So, I'd like to point out that magick can be used to abuse the code too. If it hasn't been done already, staff might as well address this. I probably won't be following up on this post, but if any admins have questions you can reach me by email.
Quote from: Morgenes on September 24, 2009, 04:53:29 PM
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on September 24, 2009, 04:48:59 PM
Just out of curiosity, is this something that will only be affecting apartments, or will it also affect storage areas in tribal encampments and GMH crafting halls and bunk rooms?
Any room with a weight limit will be affected by these changes.
Mmmm, I understand your point Musashi, but I was referring to this quote from Morgenes. It frightened me.
Quote from: Sephiroto on September 25, 2009, 10:09:44 AM
I haven't really been participating in the forums, but I found this thread interesting.
So, I'd like to point out that magick can be used to abuse the code too. If it hasn't been done already, staff might as well address this. I probably won't be following up on this post, but if any admins have questions you can reach me by email.
Yes, we're aware of that.
Quote from: tanbiere on September 24, 2009, 10:13:33 PM
That sounds like a serious problem for a merchant house that stores a lot of resources and goods. Especially since most only have one storeroom maybe two SAVE rooms for these items.
Apartments are not warehouses, but warehouses
are warehouses.
Well there goes my 'gicker interior-decorator concept. THANKS SEPH >:(
"Oh, you should hire him. He can simply do magick with curtains and throw pillow! No, really."
Quote from: Nyr on September 25, 2009, 11:22:55 AM
Quote from: Sephiroto on September 25, 2009, 10:09:44 AM
I haven't really been participating in the forums, but I found this thread interesting.
So, I'd like to point out that magick can be used to abuse the code too. If it hasn't been done already, staff might as well address this. I probably won't be following up on this post, but if any admins have questions you can reach me by email.
Yes, we're aware of that.
Quote from: tanbiere on September 24, 2009, 10:13:33 PM
Yay.
That sounds like a serious problem for a merchant house that stores a lot of resources and goods. Especially since most only have one storeroom maybe two SAVE rooms for these items.
Apartments are not warehouses, but warehouses are warehouses.
For the record, players with the ability to play magic users have the karma (or spec app) and thus the trust to not abuse the code. Using magic to circumvent the size limits by transporting a large object that couldn't normally be brought in is an abuse of the code. If this is found to be true of a player with said karma, they won't have that karma anymore, nor will they have the character.
Quote from: tanbiere on September 25, 2009, 10:23:56 AM
Quote from: Morgenes on September 24, 2009, 04:53:29 PM
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on September 24, 2009, 04:48:59 PM
Just out of curiosity, is this something that will only be affecting apartments, or will it also affect storage areas in tribal encampments and GMH crafting halls and bunk rooms?
Any room with a weight limit will be affected by these changes.
Mmmm, I understand your point Musashi, but I was referring to this quote from Morgenes. It frightened me.
I get that. I'm just saying that while every room with a weight limit will be affected ... not all rooms have the same weight limit ... at least, I'm guessing that they don't :)
I would hope that a room entitled "the cramped one room apartment" would have a different weight limit than the one entitled "the super big-sized GMH storage extravaganza!"
Anyway though, staff already answered this I just didn't see it before posting so, yeah ...
I think the fix needs to be fixed.
I was at my weight limit and I tried to pick something up.
- You try to pick up the really heavy object. It doesn't move.
At this point I can't move. I can't drop it (the room is full), I can't put it back in its container as it's technically still inside.
The only option for me was to strip a few pieces of armor off. I would be permanently stuck if I was nekkid.
>rest
Quote from: Xagon on September 28, 2009, 02:05:36 AM
I think the fix needs to be fixed.
I was at my weight limit and I tried to pick something up.
- You try to pick up the really heavy object. It doesn't move.
At this point I can't move. I can't drop it (the room is full), I can't put it back in its container as it's technically still inside.
The only option for me was to strip a few pieces of armor off. I would be permanently stuck if I was nekkid.
What happens if you junk a container of objects in a room that is at its limit? Do the objects fill the room beyond its limit, do they get junked also or does the game crash?
Quote from: Xagon on September 28, 2009, 02:05:36 AM
I think the fix needs to be fixed.
I was at my weight limit and I tried to pick something up.
- You try to pick up the really heavy object. It doesn't move.
At this point I can't move. I can't drop it (the room is full), I can't put it back in its container as it's technically still inside.
The only option for me was to strip a few pieces of armor off. I would be permanently stuck if I was nekkid.
"Rest" would fix your problem.
Quote from: watersprite on September 28, 2009, 09:51:48 AM
What happens if you junk a container of objects in a room that is at its limit? Do the objects fill the room beyond its limit, do they get junked also or does the game crash?
Same thing that happens anywhere else--it dumps the objects on the floor. (It fills the room beyond its limit, too.)
Suggestion for those of you cleaning out your apartments: Midden heaps! Don't just junk all the stuff, leave the really crappy trash out there for the rats and 'rinth rats.
Quote from: Morgenes on September 25, 2009, 01:03:23 PM
For the record, players with the ability to play magic users have the karma (or spec app) and thus the trust to not abuse the code. Using magic to circumvent the size limits by transporting a large object that couldn't normally be brought in is an abuse of the code. If this is found to be true of a player with said karma, they won't have that karma anymore, nor will they have the character.
Wow. The way you've stated this sounds pretty severe. As a player with pretty much max karma (undeserved or no) I have to raise my hand and say that I am rarely aware of bugs in code or ways in which to circumvent code and at the same time have done insanely stupid things because my character (and at times I) have rationalized it.
An example might be doing magicky X to a HUGE SET OF SHELVES and then discovering it was lighter than it was before and then carrying it around. Until a staff member called me out about it, I didn't realize it was a a violation because it was magickally lighter than it had been.
It is my hope that you'll consider circumstance and discuss with the player prior to removing karma / killing characters.
Another example of this kind of behavior on my part was years ago when there existed a bug that if you rested in combat you would regain stamina. I did this accidentally, having been knocked down (into a resting posture) and gained enough stamina to run away. I was accused of code abuse by a player - but what I saw was being knocked down and noticing I had enough stamina to flee, so I did. I didn't even know about a the ability to circumvent code this way.
So, with regard to magickers - I'm not confident that I could avoid doing this (violating a room's capacity) by being aware of how any particular magick effects the properties of an object. After years of playing Arm I'm still only half-aware of the things that any one particular class can do.
Please do not attribute more knowledge to your players than they might have. Just because you know how things work does not mean that I know and that I can avoid it as easily as you might.Edit to add:
I'm pretty sure I received my karma bonuses based on RP and trust - not on knowledge of how the details of the coded world works. In fact, I'm darn sure of the latter.
It is still official policy to talk to the player being considered for karma removal before any such removal takes place.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 28, 2009, 11:48:51 AM
Suggestion for those of you cleaning out your apartments: Midden heaps! Don't just junk all the stuff, leave the really crappy trash out there for the rats and 'rinth rats.
I LOVE this idea and highly recommend everyone practice it if you are over-burdened in your room.
I love finding special stuff in heaps!
Brandon
Quote from: FuSoYa on September 28, 2009, 12:17:40 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 28, 2009, 11:48:51 AM
Suggestion for those of you cleaning out your apartments: Midden heaps! Don't just junk all the stuff, leave the really crappy trash out there for the rats and 'rinth rats.
I LOVE this idea and highly recommend everyone practice it if you are over-burdened in your room.
I love finding special stuff in heaps!
Brandon
I once found something on a heap that was awesome, amazing, and completely game-changing for my character. It would have spawned an interesting plot or two, boosted his reputation with his employers, and fed directly into my intended concept/arc for the character. I picked it up from the heap ... and the mud crashed.
I still think wistfully about it.
Heh, I remember one time this dude and I found a magick something-or-other inside an apartment he'd just rented, and we both freaked out about it and buried it in a midden heap.
I wonder if that's the same thing you're referring to, heh.
I don't know how and I don't know why but I do know that a certain GMH Senior Agent lost his silver signet ring in a midden heap one time...
I think. :-[
Barndon
Quote from: Synthesis on September 28, 2009, 04:41:38 PM
Heh, I remember one time this dude and I found a magick something-or-other inside an apartment he'd just rented, and we both freaked out about it and buried it in a midden heap.
I wonder if that's the same thing you're referring to, heh.
I remember that as well. ;D
What Gimf said. Toss your crap on those midden heaps. One man's garbage is another man's treasure.
Last time a character of mine moved into new quarters it came pre-filled with several trunk-loads of stuff I had no feasible use for. Sorting and junking would have taken more time than I cared to spend, so I just had an HG haul the whole lot out and empty them into a garbage heap. The game didn't reboot for another 12 days, so I imagine a lot of it found new homes.