Reclaiming water from the body.

[Canadian Beaver]

So, after watching Dune again this weekend I'm wondering what people thought of getting the water from a dead man's body. Not sure if this has been brought up before or not, but with water as precious as it is, I imagine some people might have realized that the body stores some water. Of course, this is assuming that the biology of our bodies is similar to those in Zalanthas.

Would it be worth trying to get coded in game?

Thoughts? Ideas? Dune just got me thinking again

[Agent_137]

i don't think water is that precious.

[Forest Junkie]

You are wicked insane crazy dude. I like the idea though =)

[Larrath]

Not from humanoid bodies, because we'll get the cannibalistic effect again.

About skinned 'monsters', though, you can idea that a water or sweat or whatever gland is added to the list of possible skinned items, and submit it.

Just remember, people are not going to be able to extract two gourds worth of water from a single body...keep the technology realistic (no chemistry) and the game balanced, as I sure as hell don't want to see massive glands of water rotting in the desert because nobody needs them.

[Forest Junkie]

keep the technology realistic (no chemistry) and the game balanced, as I sure as hell don't want to see massive glands of water rotting in the desert because nobody needs them.

That problem is easily solved - don't hunt more than you would need.

[Pantoufle]

Dune is a science fiction novel and the technology used to reclaim water from a corpse is very likely well beyond the ability of even the most advanced cultures in Zalanthas.

[Forest Junkie]

Dune is a science fiction novel and the technology used to reclaim water from a corpse is very likely well beyond the ability of even the most advanced cultures in Zalanthas.

True

What about the critters you CAN retrieve water from in Zalanthas atm. If it's possible to do that to them, why not a human corpse?

[trachsis]

You carefully extract a large, elf bladder from the corpse of the ugly, pointy-eared elf.

> l in bladder

It is filled with a yellowish liquid.

Eww.  OK?  Eww.

[Jacques]

On a purely technical note, there's virtually nothing of what most of us think of as "pure water" in the human body. The water in the body contains electrolytes, proteins, starches, and the like... saline (salt water) is probably a more appropriate thing to think of, at least in terms of straight osmolarity. Some creatures, like the vampire bat, are able to drink bodily fluids and filter out all the stuff that's in it to use it as water. Most are not. From a Zalanthas perspective, you'd be drinking the equivalent of blood plasma (or ickier and gloppier) - not quite the same. While Zalanthan humans are not the same as those in our world, OURS cannot live on salt water, and I kinda doubt that they can either.

To extract the water from this, you'd need a way to remove the extra things that are in it. Short of magick, I don't see that happening (I could be wrong, of course - there's always biochemistry to be done SOMEWHERE), and if you're going to use magick, hire a water mage and leave the corpse for the scrab.  :wink:

[Pantoufle]

True

What about the critters you CAN retrieve water from in Zalanthas atm. If it's possible to do that to them, why not a human corpse?

As Jacques mentioned, it's not that easy.  You can't just pull out a gland and ... voila!  In the case of extracting water glands from certain animals in game, this is because their bodies have a water gland and their biology is vasty different from a human(oid)'s.  These insectoid creature's bodies work like a cactus that maintains a water resevoire for later use, a feature not present in the human body.  A skilled butcher will know how to extract this and drink from it, which is likely relatively clean water by comparison to the fluid running in a human's small intestines, which will make you sick and possibly even die.  Different animals work differently.  This is why you can eat raw fish and be relatively free from the risk of contamination, but if you eat a raw pig or cow, your odds of disease (and even death) are greatly increased.  A fish's body has a natural filtration system that mammals do not.

That's not to say there isn't some possible method of reclaining a humanoid corpse's water using less-than-advanced (science fiction) technology, but you can't simply dissect the necessary organs and drink from them, nor separate the water from all the other ... goo in order to make it drinkable.

In the case of Dune, they were using advanced technological machines to break down the corpse's fluid and turn it into pure, drinkable water.

[Carnage]

Piss into someone else's mouth, then have them piss into yours.

Voila. Recycled water.

[Bestatte]

Extracting water from polluted water isn't all that difficult in Zalanthas, where there exists such things as distilleries. (Yes, they must exist somehow, otherwise some of the alcoholic beverages we buy wouldn't exist).

You need a big covered container, a fire, some manner of tubing that can withstand hot steam, and another container. Boil the bad water in the big covered container, with the tubing attached to a hole in the top of the cover. The steam will rise, carrying with it mostly pure water with some pollutants still remaining. The steam will condense into water, which travels down the tube - leaving the sediment on the inner surface of the tube as it cools and deposits the purified water into the second container.

Boom - polluted water into drinkable water, in one easy step. It won't be "pure" water, or particularly clean. But salt will crystalize if the tube is long enough for the steam to cool and condensate, and end up somewhere other than that second container, along with any other minerals that can be crystalized through a vaporization process.

It is also this same process used to make a lot of those perfume and bath oils you see in the game, with a minor adjustment to the tubing so that the heavier oil seperates from the water and drips into a third container.

[Agent_137]

too much energy in, not enough out. sorry, not plausible in the least.

[Pantoufle]

too much energy in, not enough out. sorry, not plausible in the least.

Agreed.

[Jacques]

too much energy in, not enough out. sorry, not plausible in the least.

Well, it's plausible, if not economically feasible. Distillation could in fact be used to purify bad water, or, if you got a really good filter in place first, even some fluids from corpses. However, now we've moved into fairly major operations in order to really make it work on any scale (biological fluids have a LOT of glop in them). I could see it happening in a small village that had grown up near a large polluted water source, but not for a place the size of Tuluk or Allanak. Biggest thing would seem to be keeping  your tubing fairly clean and keeping a heat source going - finding things to burn in Zalanthas isn't always easy.  

There's also the possibility, for less polluted water sources, that there's some basic chemistry that could go on.  The average Zalanthan would only understand it at the level of "drop the purple rock in, and the green stuff forms on the bottom, so the water's good to drink", but it's certainly a theoretical possibility. But it would tend to vary in efficiency from water source to water source, so you're taking your chances. But this would NOT be a practical way to reclaim water from the dead, as is the actual topic of this thread.  :wink:

[Flare]

Dont you just type, Get waterskin body? Then drink the waterskin... then move on?

[gofmk]

Dont you just type, Get waterskin body? Then drink the waterskin... then move on?

My thoughts -exactly-.  :lol:

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Typically, one can only recover water from the Body of something that is designed to carry it for dry periods, such as a camel. In Armageddon, this is likely much more possible, but you'll rarely find them in insects. I'd focus on mammals in general.

[Angela Christine]

All you need is a butcher, a meat grinder, a wine press and a still.

First the butcher does the initial corpse preparation: drain off the free liquids, cut out all the poisonous bits, and remove any bones to sturdy to be ground in the meat grinder.

Second you move the "safe" meats and organs into the meat grinder, to be pulped.

Third you deposit the meat pulp into the wine press, and press out the "juice."  The juice is a little thick, so you strain it through cloth a few times to get as clear a liquid as you can.

Then it is off to the still, for boiling.  The boiling will kill most dangerous bacteria, which is handy.  For cleaner water have several stages of distilling.


Possible?  Yes.  Effective?  I doubt it, there is no way you are going to recover anything near 100% of the moisture with this system, and since it is labour intensive your workers will probably be sweating off water while they work.  Practical?  Probably not, except in very special circumstances.



The biggest problem is the heat source, there is a distinct lack of bunsen burners in the known world.  Glass tubing is available (though expensive) and could be kept fairly clean with fine sand and flexible brushes.  But a cheap source of extreme heat can be hard to come by.


Heat source 1: Surface heat.

Black obsidian left outdoors would absorb a lot of heat, though probably not enough to actually boil water.  But if the base of the container was a "bowl" carved into a large deposit, the bowl would get very hot and the surrounding stone would keep it hot once the water was added.  Not necessarily hot enough for steam, but perhaps hot enough to encourage evaporation.

You could do something similar with a still small enough to portable, if you partially burried it in scortching hot sand.  

Part of the problem with using surface heat is that glass tubing is delicate, and wouldn't stand up well to being moved around and left outside.


Heat source 2: geothermal heat.
All that obsidian indicates that there was geothermal activity at some point in the past.  If you could find an active vent, you might be able to tap into extreme heat.  Besides the problems with finding a vent, I think those kinds of sites are often home to nasty gasses and other unpleasantness.

Heat source 3: Fire.
Most things that will burn will be more valuable than the water you can recover, even in the north where combustibals are commmon.  However, it is concievable that someone could find a source of coal, crude oil or natural gas and somehow harness it.  Gas is unlikely, since it is poisonous to breath and explosively flamable, but stranger things have happened -- they would probably have to find a flaming gas vent and use it in situ.  These products burn well, and would have little other use in most Zalanthan cultures.  There aren't any coal or oil based technologies advertised inside the known world, but a small group of clever people would keep such a find secret, to prevent it being taken by one of the larger states.


Heat source 4: Magick.
Potentially the cheapest heat source, if you can get it at all.  You would need either an elementalist with exquisite control, or some sort of rift connecting to the elemental plane of fire.  You would probably need a group that regularily produced a disproportionate population of krathis on a regular basis for a culture to to devlop advanced technology that depends on fire magick.  Or else an "inexhaustible" supply like a trapped fire elemental or connection to the elemental plane of fire.  Unlikely and potentially very dangerous, but it could develop into a situation where fire is very cheap and water is very valuable, so water distilleries would be practical.




Regardless of the heat source, it is unlikely that distilleries would be developed solely for processing water from corpses.  Humans may be more than 90% water, but you aren't going to get that much water back out of the body.  More likely there would be a source of impure water nearby, and corpse reclamation was added as an afterthougt.  It is possible that there is a wierd tribe or village somewhere in or near the known world doing this, but I wouldn't expect to meet them.



AC

[naatok]

There is a simple way of extracting potable liquid from a body that, in addition to the moisture, has many nutritious properties to it....if one can acclimate to the taste, that is.

The answer, of course, is blood.

Blood can easily be extracted from a body by hanging the corpse upside down relatively soon after death, and slitting the major artery in the throat of the creature (I have doubts if this would apply to insectoid creatures).

One could possibly get a couple liters of blood from a human sized corpse in this manner (the body holds alot of blood, but not all of it will come out when the body is drained like this).

Honestly, I don't see much attempt beyond this being practical at all in Zalanthas.  I do believe this would be possible if one were dying of thirst in the desert.

I think if I were dying of thirst, I wouldn't have qualms about drinking blood....but then again....I like the taste of blood so my opinion may be in the minority.   :twisted:

[spawnloser]

Mmm-mmm!  The tangy taste of iron, that's what makes it taste so good, naatok.

The thing, though, is that it would still be considered cannibalism...and most of the societies in game find it a repulsive and immoral thing to do.  It would be hard to justify having a character being cannibalistic if not from societies that are, except in the case, as has been mentioned, of extreme desperation...like dying of thirst in the desert.  I mean, I'm sure all of us in RL are in the same situation as all those non-cannibals in the game.  Do any of you really think you'd commonly reclaim blood from your dead for drinking, or would you simply get some dirty water and strain the bad stuff off and boil it to kill the biological stuff?

[Jacques]

There is a simple way of extracting potable liquid from a body that, in addition to the moisture, has many nutritious properties to it....if one can acclimate to the taste, that is.

Naatok, if you consider blood to be potable, remind me to never have dinner at your house.  :wink:

[Carnage]

The thing, though, is that it would still be considered cannibalism...and most of the societies in game find it a repulsive and immoral thing to do.

I've never seen any sort of hint that cannibalism was either scorned or rejected in the world.

[Delirium]

Yeah, I see blood drinking as something that, normally, only the desperate would do.

[Cenghiz]

There are not many animals storing water. Camels do store fat, which gives out water when dissolved into fat acids and gliserol (I know Chemistry, but in Turkish. So sorrily I can't explain it, but the hunches of the camels are fats, not water.). Human body storing water? No.. We don't have the technology.
Thumbs down. Water's already not that hard to find. I don't want to see 'rinthi water-sellers around. In North and South there are enough ways for a ranger to find water. Other classes? Other classes are supposed to visit cities o outposts frequently.

[Armaddict]

Just wanted to note something:

You can't say they wouldn't have the -technology- to do so.  Technology in these sort of times came about by necessity.  With water being so rare, people -could- motivate themselves to find something.  The 'technology' would, in effect, just be an innovation of an idea to circumvent the problem that brings about that necessity.

This is how the bushmen of the kalahari desert figured out ways to find water in the dry times of the year.  Early morning forages in -grass reeds- to collect dew became prominent, along with finding bulbs in the ground to cut up into shavings, which were squeezed to produce droplets of water.

These are -technologies-, per se, but by no means advanced ones.  They're a crude way to find water in a dry place.  Finding a way to do so with the human body isn't unthinkable, seeing how desecration of a body isn't a big deal.  It may be a crude way to do it, and not too efficient.

In short, I say:  It could happen.

[spawnloser]

Carnage, if no society is repulsed by it, why are there only two racial societies that are able to eat PC and other humanoid bodies?  I'm sure the ability to skin humanoid (including PCs) would have been put in by now too, if the use of humanoid bodies for materials (food or manufacturing) was not anathema.  Just because there is no mention in the docs one way or the other does not mean that is one or the other necessarily, as well...but the other indicators point to everyone being non-cannibals as the more likely way it is.

[fearwig]

Piss into someone else's mouth, then have them piss into yours.

Voila. Recycled water.

Funny enough, if you did it sparingly, you would be reclaiming usable water.

The only problem comes when you are recycling urea and other things the blood actually wants to have filtered out. But as long as you aren't doing it every single time, you could in theory stave dehydration off that much longer that way.

[halfhuman]

I think that if you have a high skinning skill you could totally remove a bladder, sweat gland, or some sort of second stomach that an animal of Zalanthas would use to store water for days of use in the desert, without puncturing it and spilling the liquid.  Whether you'd want to drink the sweat/urine is entirely dependant upon how fucked up/tribal your character is.

I think it's a good idea for rangers and hunters with higher skinning skillz, because it just seems like a kewl idea.

The experienced hunter says to the young hunter:
"Now, son, if you carefully cut around the rib cage of this here Carru, you can remove the bladder without puncturing it.  The urine may not taste the best, but without a templar out here in the wastes it may be the only urine you'll *have* to drink for miles!"

(have=ambiguous )

skin oompa-loompa
You chop off the oompa-loompa's head.
You cut a chunk of meat from the oompa-loompa's side.
You carefully remove the oompa-loompa's blatter, preserving the liquid inside.
OR,
You clumsily puncture the oompa-loompa's bladder spilling precious liquid all over.

[joyofdiscord]

Yeah, I see blood drinking as something that, normally, only the desperate would do.

Blood drinking of other humanoids, perhaps.  Drinking blood of mammals seems like a fantastic and very Zalanthan idea to me, and of the insects too, if it isn't somehow poisonous.  Here in Mexico, every part of the animal is used, and the blood is made into several different dishes, and it's the -base-, not just a seasoning.  Also, my housemate told me a great story from life in his town in Guerrerro.  When slaughtering the cows, the women would collect the blood in a glass and drink it raw on the spot.  He told me the image of the women of Guerrerro with blood moistening their teeth was a strong one that stays with him.

Taboo on blood consumption = North American ick factor.  I would love to see a manner of using blood as a food in Zalanthas.  We already eat scrab antennae, for crying out loud.

[Moofassa]

These are all valid ideas. But i've never thought the people of Zalanthas to have this much knowledge. Not the knowledge of drinking others peoples piss and such. But the knowledge of knowing these things are composed of water. Urine, sure, kinda obvious. But blood, and the water you would extract from a corpse? Im not too sure they would all know that there was water.

As for Ac's post. You're crazy:P Plain and simple, you have a brain the size of rosie o'donalds ass.... On a lighter side to that post, would the people of Zalanthas know about "distilling" in more than just maybe making ale and stuff. Are they aware of being able to "cleanse" the gunge by heating it?

[Xamminy]

How do some of you know that some of these options aren't already implemented?

[fearwig]

Being able to make whiskey or other spirits actually directly implies knowledge of destilling, as in, heating up a substance so that its liquid (alcohol or water) evaporates without burning the substance. That's how stills work, and it's the only way I'm aware of to make anything the strength of traditional spirits.

As such, it would be perfectly possible to use a machine, a still essentially, to evaporate the potable water out of urine, blood, feces, or any other bodily fluid. However, to get the water out of a body as a whole, you'd have to render it down to liquid, or at least small solids, which would be more effort than it's worth.

So it's really one of those short-answer-no-long-answer-yes questions. The bigger deal is that Zalanthan culture is simply not Fremen culture, and it's mostly cultural allowances that produce this "water reclamation" technology. The bottleneck isn't ability, it's will to carry through with it. This would be treated as cannibalism on Zalanthas.

Remember that Zalanthas is probably more the equivalent of Arrakis circa the third book, at the very closest, as it becomes more like a normal world. It's got trees, and relatively abundant wildlife, and so forth. It is very dry, but it is -not- as dry as Dune, and while water is of supreme importance to many of its people, it is not the source of religion, the source of honor, the source of debt, et cetera. It's not even the primary currency. It's not nearly as important as it is in Dune, so culture won't make the same allowances for its gathering.

[joyofdiscord]

These are all valid ideas. But i've never thought the people of Zalanthas to have this much knowledge. Not the knowledge of drinking others peoples piss and such. But the knowledge of knowing these things are composed of water. Urine, sure, kinda obvious. But blood, and the water you would extract from a corpse? Im not too sure they would all know that there was water.

It seems you are confusing the modern-day overabundance of scientific data with actual practical knowledge.  Modern Westerners have plenty of the former, but often lack the latter, especially when coming to primitive survival techniques.  Zalanthans, along with many real world peoples, have LOTS of the latter, and don't need the former to get there.  You might as well ask if Zalanthans know that they need oxygen for cellular respiration, and if not, why do they bother breathing?

Do they "know" that there is "water" (H20) in a fruit?  Not exactly, but they eat them anyway.  Did people long ago "know" that there was beta carotene in carrots?  No, but they ate them anyway.  Also, I doubt blood would quench thirst, as it would provide more nutrients in need of water for digestion than actual free moisture.  It would still be a valid food source, though, and if the people in the harsh world of Zalanthas hadn't thought of consuming it, I would suspect them of mental handicaps.  Why does it occur to us so natural and obvious to cook up muscle flesh to eat?  Because we do it.  That's the only reason.  All Zalanthans need to know is that consuming X thing, in some appropriate raw or cooked state would ease their hunger, not make them sick, and hopefully taste decent (and lots of people like the taste of blood dishes in real life).  The exact chemical composition is immaterial.  Read up on some of the real world societies which are -much- more technologically primitive than Zalanthas, and are able to take advantage of these kind of food sources.  The Kalahari bushmen were already brought up as an example in this thread, I believe.  They have more knowledge than -anyone- on this board does about surviving in the desert, I guarantee it.  It's because they live in the desert.  Zalanthans live in the desert.  Just because we as comfortable, modern North Americans are relatively clueless about surviving from nature doesn't mean we need to project that cluelessness onto Zalanthans, of all people.

[Kennath]

As my first post on this wonder ful meessage board I'd like to say.... DO IIIIIIIT! I may consider a cannibilistic character later on. I've played on alot of other muds and I find that the idea of Arm is to be extremely harsh and post-apoc. You can learn from any SAA agent that in a survival situation drinking blood is almost ESSENTIAL in living (chapter 3 SAA survival guide, I think) So, everyone, grab your knifes and ropes, blood draining/drinking party!

[Agent_137]

The question is more, "Does this deserve to be hard-coded," not "Can we do this?"

Bear in mind, if you're ever in a situation where you -need- to drink some blood, wish up. I'm sure the immortals will be happy to help.

Afterall, that's one of the reasons they are here: To help bridge the gap between the Reality that is Zalanthas and The Code that is Zalanthas.

[Maybe42or54]

I've drinken blood in game, and like in RL, I gagged it back up.

[Savak]

There ARE areas within Zalanthas in which water is so scarce the locals have tried/will try anything conceivable to salvage it; in other areas it is merely rare and expensive, but accessible.  The average player may not grasp this feeling, however, because 1) most players spend most of their time in a city/area with access to water, and 2) travel CAN be relatively quick, codewise, so one can go back & forth to places that -do- have water.

However, most real Zalanthans don't have that ability.

Instead, some may drink blood, press flesh, distill whole corpses, salvage urine &/or sweat, keep beasts that can convert such things for them for harvesting, or consort with magickers -- usually in a clan/tribe/regional/spiritual setting.  All have their potential downfalls, but that certainly doesn't mean they aren't utilized.

-Savak

[Maybe42or54]

After all, Every great tavern is close to a stable.