Concerning materials

[sosaria]

Just a little thought that came to my head...

Wood, bone, obsidian... metal

wouldn't that be comparable to something like,

bronze, iron, steel... mithril  ?

It's just that I haven't played a mud with a world such as this... I can't possibly imagine using bone to smack somebody across the head with. This mud reminds me of Morrowind for some reason.


Grrr... when I'm playing Morrowind, the desert area reminds me of Armageddon. I'm corrupted.

[Bogre]

Thats a neat comparision, except metal is an EXTREME rarity. Like never to never seen. That's right, I didn't put slim to none. Never to never.

[Marauder Moe]

Saying that obsidian is better than bone and that bone is better than wood isn't really true.  They have different properties but none is all around superior to any of the others.

Well, except for metal.  Metal is superior, but your common characters will be every lucky if they even get to TOUCH something made of metal, let alone own anything.

[jstorrie]

Not... no, not really.

Wood, bone, stone and obsidian all have more varied properties than different metals, really.  There's even more divergence within different types of bone, different types of stone and different types of wood.  Some animals have flimsy bones, others have really resilient ones.  Some wood is flexible and good for, say, bows, while other harder woods make decent melee weapons.

Obsidian isn't the 'best', either - obsidian is very sharp, but prone to shatter.

Metal in Zalanthas is probably even more rare than mythril in most fantasy settings.  In all my play time, I think I have only seen -one- metal weapon, and it was a small one.  And it might not even have been metal, to boot.  I might just be wrong.

There are other materials in Zalanthas that are used for arms and armour, too.  A few mentioned in the help files include leathers, chitin, isilt and glass.

[sosaria]

By the way, what is Chitin and Isilt?

There is Chitin in Morrowind, but I never knew what it is... bone + leather, perhaps?

[Agent_137]

it's exoskeleton from bugs, bascially.

isilt is bone, but fired and done just right. Very expensive.

[Teleri]

You also have to keep in mind that, like the characters are supposed to be, the animals/plants providing the bone and other materials are much more hardy than RL versions.  That means that the bone and wood are going to be much more dense, the hide is going to be the same, and chitin would be quite durable.  Obsidian, of course, is the same...which makes me wonder how come some obsidian weapons don't shatter on impact with something hard.  But, this is a fantasy game overall and things aren't going to be quite right.

Just explaining this part of the materials, as you say you have trouble imagining using items made out of them.  They aren't nearly as durable as metal, nor do they provide such good coverage, and they can't sustain an edge quite like metal either.  However, bone is sharp if shaved right, and wood can be also if fire-hardened and sanded.  Obsidian holds a better edge than metal (just not as long), and chitin can be made into weapons as sharp as bone particularly if the edges are serrated.  

The materials are crude, as are most of the items made from them (by our standards), but they are generally made to last.

[Trenidor]

Just a little thought that came to my head...

Wood, bone, obsidian... metal

wouldn't that be comparable to something like,

bronze, iron, steel... mithril  ?

yes, you have it in the wrong order:

Obsidian was discovered first, so...

The Obsidian age...

Then came bone...

With the obsidan tools, they were able to shape the bone and use it.

The Bone age.

Then, the only forest in the world was discovered...

The Wood Age.

And right now, we are just barely getting into the Metal age.

Most of the uses of metal are very wimpy, metal isn't all that reliable here on zalanthas, I'd have to say most people think it's just for show and would only use it for one of those wall hanger weapons.

There you have it:

Obsidian age -- Bronze age (I guess)
Bone age -- Iron age (sure why not?)
Wood age -- The age of Steel (Wood is probably the strongest of the 3 materials, you never know though, some bones could be pretty hard...)

[Xygax]

I think Trenidor is joking...?  The question wasn't about historical Ages, and the answer is basically wrong.  As far as I'm aware, Zalanthas doesn't record history in terms of material ages.  "help time" and friends will probably clear some of this up.  There is also a "help isilt" that you should check out to learn about that material.

Trying otherwise to "rank" the materials in this sense will probably only be misleading.  Metal is rare and extremely desirable, and useful for more than just wall-decoration, but that is all the specifics I'll offer on that.  More can probably be wrung from the documentation.

[sjanimal]

Since it looks like about ten people missed the point of what you are asking, the answer is -- yes, because of the engineering properties of bone, it would be an impractical weapon.

But this is just a game, so we just kind of use our imagination and pretend like bone would be a good weapon.  

Bone isn't dense enough to make good clubs, won't hold an edge, etc.  But obviously, it would be much better than nothing.

[Anonymous]

Bone isn't dense enough to make good clubs

Let me knock you upside the head with a good hambone and see if you say that.  And that's just the earth-based equivalent.  Mekillot bone would do the job just fine as a club.

[Dracul]

Bone isn't dense enough to make good clubs

Let me knock you upside the head with a good hambone and see if you say that.  And that's just the earth-based equivalent.  Mekillot bone would do the job just fine as a club.

Seconded...then thirded and fourthed by the voices in my head. (and of course I don't have to use proper grammar for them...)

[sosaria]

I don't know... I know Wood can be harder than some things... I like Obsidian, though.

[Bug]

Lets see...

Wood is brittle, and prone to splinters and natural decay.

Bones are tough and crude. However, realize that we arent talking about animal bones - bugs' bones are much, much different. Besides, if you find the right bone, even in real world you can make it into almost any weapon. Stabbing and piercing is easy, just sharpen, but edged weapons would be more difficult - but doable. Its the same, basicly, as making a wood sword.

Chitin is basicly "skin" from the bugs, alternating with their hides (since when do bugs have hides anyways?) Its a tough and extremly crude surface, which should be more elastic than bone though.

Obsidian is sharp but brittle. Much like glass, just of more mineral origin. Heavy, brittle and probably expensive. Should make good arrows.

Dont know about the rest, realy.

[Marauder Moe]

Bugs don't have bones

[JollyGreenGiant]

Right, chitin isn't just the "skin" of an insect.  Insects have exoskeletons, meaning that that chitin "skin" actually is their bone structure.

The human thigh bone is actually stronger than concrete.  (Compression strength?  Tension?  Torsion?  I don't know.  It's a rather vague little factoid isn't it?)

[sjanimal]

I love how people who don't know what they are talking about are trying to argue with me.

I've actualy seen the material performance statistics on bone, and have run similar tests myself.  

Have you ever held a cow bone?  A chicken bone?  A deer bone?  A human bone?  Yes, I've held all of those.  I've tried to make tools out of some of them.

I took a class on making primitive tools, and while horn and antler are recommended, bone wasn't really used that much.

So yeah....if you wanna come attack me with a bone...I'm in Ohio right now.  You're kinda weird, but I guess bring it if you want.

[sjanimal]

Follow UP:

Jolly Green Giant is right -- bone is actually stronger than concrete.



For the rest of you, before you read too much into that, people don't make weapons from concrete, neither.  Anyone guess why?

[JollyGreenGiant]

Here are some pictures of weapons made from actual bone.

A knife:
http://www.indiansun.net/images/pMA009.jpg

A dagger:
http://www.janesoceania.com/papua_historical/ASMAT%20BONE%20DAGGER%20Irian%20Jaya.jpg

An axe:
http://www.artspacific.com/01.05.200/pngboneaxe.jpg

A club:
http://www.civilization.ca/aborig/tsimsian/images/wariw07a.jpg

[Anonymous]

I love how people who don't know what they are talking about are trying to argue with me.

I love how people who read about it in a book decide that others don't know what they are talking about.  In my younger years as a ruffian I had a hambone bounced off of my head while playing keepaway with my cousin from the dog.  It hurt very badly.

So yeah....if you wanna come attack me with a bone...I'm in Ohio right now.  You're kinda weird, but I guess bring it if you want.

Oh God.  I wasn't threatening you so no reason to to puff out your chest.  I was making a point now trying to be a big tough guy.

[WhiteRanger]

I dont know about any of you, but have you ever bit into a piece of chicken and had the damn thing stab you in the side of the cheek or in the roof of the mouth from an unexpected bone...let me tell you, not only does it bleed, it hurts. And just because its apt to shatter in rl, dosent mean it never brakes in game...I HAVE BROKEN BONE WEAPONS in game, so get off your high horse of saying we make it unrealistic. Its all a matter of situations really, if you have two humans in real life hitting each other with deer femur's, you would definantly crack a skull before you cracked your crude club. But if a half giant walked up on you in Ohio or wherever it is your from, and took a swing at you with his mekillot bone club, Im very sure it would shatter any wooden, obsidian, or rl bone weapon you might have just from the sheer force of the blow....its all about the fantasy of the game and the situations we put the materials in. So yes, bone is a very practical in game weapon, remember, we arent using hollow bird bones here. Were talking about the same shit used to support the structures of creatures the size of stacked school buses in the most undesireable environment imaginable.

[Agent_137]

everyone realizes what they are talking about, right?

Lines of text and what numbers that should be associated with them. Yea. That's it.

Be cool, guys. It's just a game.  :wink:

[WhiteRanger]

JUST A GAME! JUST A GAME! Havent I went through this before on some other post....I told you people that the next one to call my god thing just a game was going to get tied up with leather cords and put in the hot sun until the cords began to shrink and thier intrails became thier extrails...so get ready for the knock at your door you blasphemous piece of kank dung, cause the WhiteRanger is coming for you!

[Agent_137]

:?:

[Cuusardo]

Thanks for those pictures, JollyGreenGiant!  They are really good.

[spawnloser]

Wood is not brittle.  It is soft and can sharpened to a phenomenally sharp edge...but it loses it quickly.

[sjanimal]

I stand corrected.

Thanks for the link, Jolly Green Giant.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Found a few more cool ones.  I love these kinds of pictures, it really makes it easier for me to visualize things in the game.

A jawbone warclub:
http://www.lovethosegifts.com/prod.itml/icOid/8067

Another jawbone warclub, this time with teeth (wince):
http://www.pentimento.com/art4c.jpg

Context page has a few other neat weapons:
http://www.pentimento.com/art4.htm

This page is pretty interesting, it talks a bit about how to make stone knives (flintknapping) if you don't mind it being hosted on angelfire, and has some good images of finished flint knives:
http://www.angelfire.com/oh4/theflintknapper/

This page has some good pictures (click the weapons link) but also talks about some of the things used in the primitive culture.  I would have never thought to use lizard skin as an abrasive, for example.
http://www.pacificislandtravel.com/png/about_destin/artifacts.asp

[sosaria]

Not quite what I had in mind when I posted this thread...

All I wanted to do was share my idea how the game's materials compare to real life materials... time-wise.

You know... iron's like wood. Steel's like bone... or what not... Mithril *ok, not really real life* like metal...

Bah, I think I caused a flame war.

[Mr.Camel]

Haha. Trust me, that was all quite friendly discussing. While you won't ever see a right out flame war, be prepared to read/join heated debates on this board. :wink: