Invisible listening

[Vettrock]

One thing that bothers me about listening and being invisible is you are not able to listen in on those people sitting at tables, and you can't hear them unless you have the listen skill.  Maybe there should be a stand next to or something like that, so that you could get close enough to hear, but without having to actually sit at the table (which if you are invisible leads to a whole new set of problems)

This would also help out those half-giant who can't sit at a table, but that way they can at least listen in.  It could echo to the room that you are stepping over next the table, to aviod the twinks using it when they don't have the listen skill.

Maybe everyone can post here instead of the disarm thread.

[Xan]

I love this idea, especially if it doesnt echo while invis.  I think it should echo if someone is hidden, but magickal invisibility would likely prevent such from being openly noticeable.

[Dracul]

I remember seeing this thread come up...or I read it in the backpages of the forums...like page #13 or 87...something like that.

I completely agree...mainly for the halfgiant thing...although there would be many other uses/misuses of it available.

Whatever...I would support the notion. Good idea bringing it up again.

[Lazloth]

I remember seeing this thread come up...or I read it in the backpages of the forums...like page #13 or 87...something like that.

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4186

[spawnloser]

Why not when hiding?  It would depend on the situation, but if you can hide and get close enough to touch someone (steal) then why not get close enough to listen to them?

[Forest Junkie]

Agreed, I like this idea.

[Anarchy]

I strongly feel all magickers should have listen and climb. And one other skill that goes with their guild. Peek & steal for drovians, clubs for Kraths, search & scan for Whirans,  desert hide and sneak for Ruk's, etc.

[wizturbo]

I think the 'stand next to' idea is a good one.  Not just for magickers who are invisible trying to easedrop, but just for everyday life.

I mean, guards might stand directly behind their noble/merchant but would be unable to hear ANYTHING said a whole 2 feet away from them.  Pretty dumb if you ask me.

As for 'stand next to' while hidden, this is my recommendation.

A skill check is made to reveal you from hiding when trying it.  If your a good hider, it won't be too much of a problem.  If your not, you get spotted.  This is to reflect the added difficulty of hiding so close to someone your trying to stay concealed from, and should be more risky then hiding on the opposite corner of the room behind an empty barrel.

[crymerci]

I love listen.  I try to get it with most of my characters.  However, sometimes the class/subclass combo I need doesn't offer it.  And that's just too bad for me.

I'm against this idea.  I think you should only have the listen skill if you have the listen skill.

Actually, hmm, I wouldn't be entirely opposed to introducing a universal listen skill that was capped really low, like at the level a beginning listener currently has.  Capped there.  And then only the guilds/subguilds that get listen could improve it.

[Agent_137]

be nice, but I wouldn't want it high priority on the code list, since we -do- already have listen.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I'm against this idea.  I think you should only have the listen skill if you have the listen skill.

Standing next to something wouldn't ever be a substitute for the listen skill.  For one, you can only stand next to one table at a time.  And it's impossible to do it covertly unless you actually have the ability to stand next to a table covertly.

As it stands, there are too many situations in which realism is hurt because of the lack of this ability.  Half-giants, guards, and magickers to name three.

[wizturbo]

As it stands, there are too many situations in which realism is hurt because of the lack of this ability.  Half-giants, guards, and magickers to name three.

4.  Servants.
5.  People simply asking if they might join someone's table.
6.  Situations where there isn't enough room at a table/sofa.
7.  Situations where you don't wish to conceal your easedropping at all.

To name seven...

I'm sure there are plenty more reasons.  This is -not- the listen skill.  Listen allows for MUCH more.  All this is, is adding a tiny dash of realism for all those situations listed above.

[Xan]

Why not when hiding?  It would depend on the situation, but if you can hide and get close enough to touch someone (steal) then why not get close enough to listen to them?

Because you're lingering 2 feet away from a table for the period of an extended conversation.  I assume if you are a good thief you are not hidden then spamming steal and picking someone clean.  In my mind a good thief would silently wander through a crowd/shadows, nick his mark and then retreat back into said crowd/shadows.  You cant do that everytime someone is about to speak and expect not to get noticed.

Since there are instances where itd be possible to linger while hidden, though likely not as easily as the general hide skill, I think wizturbos idea of a skill check, preferrably one with a sufficient penalty for standing close to one group and expecting not to be noticed, would be ideal.

Thats my take on it.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I don't think it should be given to anybody who can hide (if you can hide in the city, you can probably listen anyway).  Moving out in plain sight to a table should break hiding.  But invisibility is a different story.  If you're invisible it shouldn't echo and it shouldn't make you visible (well, obviously).

[WhiteRanger(loggedout)]

I like the skill, but I think it should be for half-giant's only. The reason the listen skill is special is that taverns are usually very noisy and so being able to decipher what someone is saying who isnt speaking directly to you or loud enough for everyone in the room to hear, is a special ability. Even a guard standing a couple feet away, might not be able to hear over all of the commotion well enough to correctly decpher what is being said at a table before him. The reason we have a "talk" command at tables is to code wise contribute to the fact that these two people are only talking loud enough and intending that only the other people at thier table hear them. I know I can lean in close enough at a table to speak to someone across from me in a noisy room so that even if you were strapped to my back, you wouldnt be able to hear me,,,think of it as a flexible whisper.

And as for having the said ability "stand by table" or whatever coded in, I think it should be for half-giant's only. Half-giant is a karma required class, and if you havent forgot karma is a measure of the level of trust the staff holds in a player. Just add this special ability for half-giants, and if the staff trusts the player not to abuse his new ability, so do I.

[Lazloth]

I like the skill, but I think it should be for half-giant's only.

What about tables that have run out of seats?

I find myself agreeing w/ESR (break hide, no 'someone' echo otherwise) with the caveat:
..these "auxiliary" stations along a particular table should be limited in number based arbitrarily on table "size".  If you're talking about a two-seater, you shouldn't be able to surround the table with an entire Byn group, etc.

[Anonymous]

Here's my idea:

help_loiter

The loiter command allows a PC to take up a position near a full table or a table that they are unable to sit at and hear all discussion at that table as well as use the talk command as though they were sitting there.  This command is primarily useful for Half-giants, muls or other weighty races, though when used in conjunction with other skills it can result in some interesting scenarios.  In most situations your PC's ldesc is changed to reflect that they are standing near a given table.

Syntax: loiter <table keyword>

> loiter bar
You take up a spot near an obsidian-topped bar.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I am in support of some version of this skill, most likely in accordance with what CRW has suggested.

[sacac]

gotta love sitting at a carpet with pillows and then someone sits on the carpet and then the people on the pillow talk and the other people have to have listen on

I like the idea.

[Vettrock]

Why does it have to be a skill?  Is it that hard to stand next to a table?  If I am invisible or some other version of magically hidden, I can literally stand or float over the table, but I can't hear anything because I don't have the loiter skill, or my loiter skill isn't high enough?

[Angela Christine]

Why does it have to be a skill?  Is it that hard to stand next to a table?  If I am invisible or some other version of magically hidden, I can literally stand or float over the table, but I can't hear anything because I don't have the loiter skill, or my loiter skill isn't high enough?

Well, just for the sake of arguement, there is more to being unnoticed than simply being invisible.  Inivisible isn't non-corporeal.  

1.  You have to be careful not bump into or brush against anyone.  If something touches them where something shouldn't be, they may suspect something.  Be ready to buzz like a kank fly, and maybe they'll think it was just an insect.

2.  Don't stink, or if you do stink, stay downwind.  An odd odour can alert people that there is something odd going on.  Did you eat a lot of garlic?  Have you been doing spice?  Wearing perfume?  Hanging out in the sewers?  Using soap?  If you have a noticeable odour, a different odour than the people than the people you are spying on, then they may notice.

3.  Be quiet.  If you fart, cough, mutter, or make a buzzing noise like a kank fly, people may notice the noise.  Most people really aren't used to being completely silent, and they aren't good at it.  

Obviously location matters.  You can get away with more odours, noises and accidental touching in the Gaj than you could in a noble's private dining room.  Of course in the Gaj you would have to be much closer to the targets than you would in the private dining room, in order to hear over the ambient noise.  

That could be considered a skill.


AC

[Vettrock]

Well, just for the sake of arguement, there is more to being unnoticed than simply being invisible.  Inivisible isn't non-corporeal.  

Suppose for Arguement's sake you were non-corporeal?  There is more than one form of invisibility.

note: I am not saying it is possible, just for theory's sake.

[Angela Christine]

Suppose for Arguement's sake you were non-corporeal?  There is more than one form of invisibility.

note: I am not saying it is possible, just for theory's sake.

Hmm.  Well, non-corporeal you could just stand in the middle of the table (not on top of the table, bisecting the table) and hear very well.  Touching wouldn't be an issue, smelling probably wouldn't be an issue, sound could still be an issue but you would only have to worry about noises your body made, not noises made by your body comming into contact with other objects.  Avoid burping and you're golden.

I think you would have an excellent arguement for emailing the mud and asking for the listen skill at that point.  


AC

[Vettrock]

Suppose for Arguement's sake you were non-corporeal?  There is more than one form of invisibility.

note: I am not saying it is possible, just for theory's sake.

Hmm.  Well, non-corporeal you could just stand in the middle of the table (not on top of the table, bisecting the table) and hear very well.  Touching wouldn't be an issue, smelling probably wouldn't be an issue, sound could still be an issue but you would only have to worry about noises your body made, not noises made by your body comming into contact with other objects.  Avoid burping and you're golden.

I think you would have an excellent arguement for emailing the mud and asking for the listen skill at that point.  


AC

Yes but then you get the skill all the time, perhaps a better solution is that listening is an effect of the spell, or the aformentioned loiter ability, although both would require some coding.

So I agree there should be a loiter ability, or a stand next to table, anyone can do it, and unless you are invisible or something similar it should echo to the room.

[Agent_137]

Well, just for the sake of arguement, there is more to being unnoticed than simply being invisible.  Inivisible isn't non-corporeal.  

Suppose for Arguement's sake you were non-corporeal?  There is more than one form of invisibility.

note: I am not saying it is possible, just for theory's sake.

I'm reading this with 4am eyes, and laughing to myself.

Thanks. I'm going to bed now.

[Anarchy]

Why cant  invis folk -sit- at the table? Problem solved, no? No new skill no new code.

[Bestatte]

Well if they're sitting at the last available seat, and someone else goes to sit down - what exactly is supposed to happen then?

examine tables

You see a table.
Lord Joe's there, and one empty seat.


sit table
There are no more seats left at the table.

think ...

bug table Hey this table's bugged

or...

think AHA! It must be an invisible magicker sitting on that chair, because invisible people CAN sit!

Kinda pointless, if you ask me. Plus it doesn't solve the problem of half-giants not being able to sit at tables and be involved in semi-private (tabletalk) conversations.

[spawnloser]

Um, I think we already have a listen skill to listen surreptitiously.  What I think we need is something that involves NO skill and is plainly obvious when done while visible so that people can listen in at a table.  No skill involved, as any skill that would cover your tracks is your (insert appropriate spell name here) or 'hide' skill.  This would primarily allow half-giants without listen to participate.

Editted to add: The other possibility is to give half-giants the listen skill racially with a low cap.

[Anonymous]

Why does it have to be a skill?

In my example I meant for it to be a command, not a skill.  Edited.

[jstorrie]

I agree with spawnloser.

Every character should have the ability to (unstealthily) stand close to a table to listen in on a conversation, and maybe even take part.

If the character wants to try to eavesdrop without being noticed, the 'listen' skill covers that.

[Anonymous]

Editted to add: The other possibility is to give half-giants the listen skill racially with a low cap.

I don't like this idea because listen gives you advantages beyond just being able to hear the table you are kneeling by.

[Stroker]

I'm sure that listen at the beginner's level does little more than that, CRW.

[EvilRoeSlade]

And yet clearly you've never used the listen skill enough to know.  It does.  It would be harder to turn on (which would defeat the purpose), but it would do everything a more advanced listener could do, minus a perk or two.

[Anonymous]

I'm sure that listen at the beginner's level does little more than that, CRW.

Does it allow you to listen to every table in the room?

Would you be able to do that if you were a half-giant sitting at that table and you didn't have the listen skill?

Giving all half-giants listen would be like giving anyone who has to go through a dark room every now and then the ability to see in the dark.

[spawnloser]

Hey, I was just listing that as an easy fix...I'm not saying it is the best fix.

[Chac]

I think it'd be really cool if anyone could listen in to one table at a time. Knowing that doing so would echo to the room and that you'd have to be standing to do so.  It's not really a skill, it's just standing close to a table.

It'd let half giants listen to one table, and it'd solve the problem of invisible people being unable to listen in on conversations.

I don't know how easy to code it'd be but I think it's a good idea.

[Stroker]

It's not like it's hard to choose listen as one of your skills to begin with.... so why all the hassle, no one's going to 'twink' out half-giant's poor listening ability. And if they do ... HA! I mock them. If it's capped at an early stage it will be fine.

[Forest Junkie]

If it's capped at an early stage it will be fine.

Incorrect.

Low cap or not, the racial skill would allow the half-giants to listen to every table in the room. (Which would be unfair to non-hg's)

If you want listen, pick a class with it.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

Not to mention, for the HG with the low listen cap, who just emoted

emote kneels beside the small purple table, next to the big blue dwarf and the little orage dwarf.
the navy blue half-giant kneels beside the small purple table, next to the big blue dwarf and the little orage dwarf.
listen
the big blue dwarf says something at the small purple table
(crap, didn't work)
listen
the little orange dwarf says something at the small purple table, winking at the big blue dwarf then looking to you questioningly.
(crap, still didn't work, what'd they say!?)
listen
at the small purple table, you overhear the big blue dwarf saying in quirky accent sirihish, looking to you, "So you think it's a good idea?"
you say (scratching his head slowly) Uh.. yeah. Me think good idea.
at the small purple table, you overhear the little orange dwarf saying in quirky accent sirihish, pushing back with a big smile, "Great!! Let's go kill that silt horror then!!"
(awww shit...)

Ok.. Obviously a silly example, but with the listen, it doesn't mean you'll be successful, even after going to the trouble of letting people know you're not being sneaky about it, you're kneeling RIGHT by the table.. But the low cap listen.. being low cap.. Just wasn't working in favor of your big dumb HG. I'm in favor of the loiter/stand by thing, for HG's and invised people. Either make it connected to a person, or a table.

emote kneels beside the small purple table, next to the big blue dwarf and the little orage dwarf.
the navy blue half-giant kneels beside the small purple table, next to the big blue dwarf and the little orage dwarf.
loiter 1
[room echoed]
The navy blue half-giant loiters next to the small purple table.

[Stroker]

That's just absurd.... but which version is easier to implement?

[InsertCleverNameHere]

The listen is, obviously, seeing as it's already a part of the game. And yes, it was a silly example, it was supposed to be, but it still makes more sense. True, with the listen cap they'd be able to hear everything at the other tables, but that can be ignored if they're just trying to listen to the one table. Still, with the loiter or stand by, it doesn't give them the possibility to fail listening, or wear off in the middle of a conversation.

And yes, if extra code isn't necessary that's great, but the easiest way isn't always the best. If they always went with what was there because it was easier, there'd be a lot of things missing from the game now that people take for granted. I really doubt everything that's in the game now was there when they started this baby up, but the game's better for the things that were added.