Disarm spam...

[Cenghiz]

Have a couple day old assasin....he'll get whooped by a day old warrior.

AFAIR assassins don't have the pretty important 'parry' skill. It's because of parry.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

While I am not completely certian about this, I think it will be very hard to ever fight four halfling warriors at once. Most of those scouts are ... well ... scouts, ie: Rangers. SO four of them, kill them. CUtely enough, this is a realistic fantasy world. So, lets make our fantasy realistic. I don't care how you do it, but lets do it. And then, as the motto at the top, write Biased for Realism.

[X-D]

Uhmmm...okay dude...you obviously aren't even reading everything I wrote...I said you can balance it out...on BOTH sides. It's unrealistic in a way for BOTH the disarmer and the disarmed NOT just the disarmer.

Most of the suggestions purely make it more realistic against the disarmer instead of making it more realistic for BOTH.

Are you getting me? You reading what I'm saying yet? Or still making assumptions about me because I don't think it should be fixed in a one-sided way?

I never said a damned thing about successfully surprising four people in a row...just one...in fact I DID say that I don't believe anyone beat down four halfling warriors solo...I think someone is exaggerating when they said that.

Who is not reading who's posts? I've stated through the whole thread that it needs to be balanced on both sides, hell, thats what the edit is on the last one. And though you call some suggestions "balance in a one sided way" Maybe they are, but to reduce "disarm spam" which I and a few others think is done to an unrealistic degree.

And you did not say 4 at a time, true, but that has been the example given and what people have been replying to, and what you replied to.

As to exaggerating...Heh, no, I was not, and by a warrior that was in the game for 2 rl months at the time (no clue on days played, though it would be hard to be over 20days) Human, since my char was shadowing him at the time.

I've also seen very old warriors breeze through many gith, but I'll not say anything about them because I don't have too much of a problem with a 80day warrior that somebody has had for 2RL years+ being able to handle a few average warriors..or any other class for that matter

Now, also, as to warriors being able to take other classes...well, look at it from another direction, sure, warriors are the gods of melee, fine, but an assassin who has been around for 15 IC years and 60 days played KNOWS his weapon, He has the art/skill/style down, it should be HARD to seperate him from his weapon, if not nearly impossible. But it is not because of the way the coded skill works, a 10day warrior, a char that cannot hit the assassin and that the assassin hits easily can easily  "suprise" him and make his weapon leave his hand, its silly. Of course the assassin could probly still punch the warrior to death, but that is beside the point. That assassin IS a master of his weapon style, something you cannot become without knowing how to grip and retain your weapon, Hell, IRL the most common way somebody becomes disarmed is in a strike or parry, not by an attempt by his opponent to remove the weapon.

Old warriors develope skills that if they practice them they can easily take any non warrior with any time on them without ever using the disarm skill or kick or bash and no non-warrior has a defense for them...unbalanced, no, why because at that point they ARE masters. A ten day warrior who has done nothing but work one skill being able to do the same thing, that is unbalanced. Currently, I think disarm already checks against agility and disarm, check how easy it is to disarm low agi races. I think it should check against agility/str/weapon skill and disarm, this would be a realistic method to balance the skill.

Though I still would be happy with longer delay forcing a warrior to commit to action and for penalties to picking weapons up from the ground to be increased.

The only good thing about the current penalties right now is that at least that 40day ranger can grab his weapon with little danger from that 10day (green) warrior. But it does not stop the spam.

[EvilRoeSlade]

The problem with disarm is that it isn't merely the deciding factor in battles between warriors and non-warriors.

I once had a gladiator, back when the institution was available to PCs.  I picked disarm as one of the two skills that the immortals will boost on account of you being a gladiator.  When it was time for the arena RPT, I fought an opponent clearly superior to me, who I couldn't hit and couldn't defend against.  However, since I had disarm boosted and she did not, I defeated her simply by disarming her a lot.  Note that she was also a warrior, since gladiator non-warriors weren't allowed to be created.

It's no accomplishment to get good at disarm, since there's a big difference between disarm when compared to backstab and archery.  Backstab and archery happen to be HARD TO GET GOOD AT.

Any yahoo who joins the Byn can become an expert disarmer without ever seriously risking their life.  Warriors are the easiest class to play and survive with in the game, and to reflect this their disarm skill ought to be toned down.

[X-D]

It's no accomplishment to get good at disarm, since there's a big difference between disarm when compared to backstab and archery. Backstab and archery happen to be HARD TO GET GOOD AT.
Any yahoo who joins the Byn can become an expert disarmer without ever seriously risking their life. Warriors are the easiest class to play and survive with in the game, and to reflect this their disarm skill ought to be toned down.

Had to highlight the one section, since I think your the 5th or 6th person to say it, but others have ignored thusfar.

And the bolded section, add to that and with no real risk to using or failing later. The skills of other classes have a lot of risk to use, hell, backstab carries risks just to practice.

[Anonymous]

That assassin IS a master of his weapon style, something you cannot become without knowing how to grip and retain your weapon, Hell, IRL the most common way somebody becomes disarmed is in a strike or parry, not by an attempt by his opponent to remove the weapon.

Right, because that assassin focuses all his time into MELEE fighting...bullshit.
The assassin is supposed to be the first strike, subtly killing type...not a warrior...it says later on they gain some warrior-like qualities...but that does not make them a warrior.
That way of thinking that an assassin should be able to hold his own against a warrior is h&s style thinking IMHO.
He shouldn't be fighting melee for any extended period of time period. It's not what he's designed to do.

Noone addressess the issue of how in real life a single successful disarm would most likely be the END of the fight.
As it is I think those disarmed get off too easy...they get plenty of time to turn tail and run. But most choose not to...then get beat...and complain that it was unrealistic that they got disarmed and lost because of it?!!!!!!
I think it was unrealistic that they keep fighting after being successfully disarmed in the first place.

[Anonymous]

Heh, and the benefits to having a good backstab are MUCH greater than the benefits to having a good disarm skill.

Quote:
It's no accomplishment to get good at disarm, since there's a big difference between disarm when compared to backstab and archery. Backstab and archery happen to be HARD TO GET GOOD AT.
Any yahoo who joins the Byn can become an expert disarmer without ever seriously risking their life. Warriors are the easiest class to play and survive with in the game, and to reflect this their disarm skill ought to be toned down.



Had to highlight the one section, since I think your the 5th or 6th person to say it, but others have ignored thusfar.

And the bolded section, add to that and with no real risk to using or failing later. The skills of other classes have a lot of risk to use, hell, backstab carries risks just to practice.

Disarm is in NO WAY equivalent to backstab in the long run, and it's difficulty to train shouldn't be either.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Noone addressess the issue of how in real life a single successful disarm would most likely be the END of the fight.

Not if your opponent has two weapons (along with some spares), which many do.

As it is I think those disarmed get off too easy...they get plenty of time to turn tail and run. But most choose not to...then get beat...and complain that it was unrealistic that they got disarmed and lost because of it????!!!!!!
I think it was unrealistic that they keep fighting after being successfully disarmed in the first place.

That, I can agree with you.  But defeating four opponents by disarming them all?  Somehow my suspension of disbelief can't abide by that.

If your opponent can dodge your sword with ease, why shouldn't they be able to react similarly to your foot?  If you can't strike their torso, why should you be able to strike their dagger with enough force to knock it from their hands?  The deciding factor in a fight should be weapon skill, offense, defense, and the ability to parry (a warrior wins hands down in all those factors).  Winning a fight by kicking somebodies chitinous platemail repeatedly, or by knocking their weapon from their hand time and time again isn't realistic.

[Armaddict]

Right.  Assassins are just used to fighting when odds are against them, removing targets with multiple guards, etc.  The first strike, i.e. backstab, is their only priority.  Without it, they're shit.  Assassins -never- fight in melee very long.

What the hell are you smoking?

Yes, the first paragraph is sarcasm.

[Armaddict]

Hmm.  Just noticed.

But this thread started as an attempt to see how players felt about changing disarm, and it's turned into warriors vs. other classes discussion.  As in, it's felt that disarm is the only thing that makes warriors superior.  This...is wrong.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Exactly.  Some things just can't be said enough.

Warriors would not somehow mystically turn into weaklings if disarm was changed to be a skill with some nodding acquaintance with realism.

[Faglore]

So what, disarm -is- a warrior's melee forte no matter how you slice it. Archery is expensive? Forage for stones. Backstab is hard? What do you expect it's a killing blow, not merely causing someone to drop a weapon. If you don't like disarm, tough. But because -you- don't like it, please don't try to change it for other players. Spam disarm should be dealt with on a case by case basis. I have seen maybe two people with serious spam disarm problems in my years of playing. Both were -dealt- with. You want some serious issues to deal with about the game ERS? How about lack of emotes and virtual recognition of surroundings that I see from oh so many players. Far more detrimental to the game then some dude with crazy disarm kicking your ass. This post was created in order to prevent spam disarm, not in order to weaken it. Stop it please. Now for you people that view disarm as unrealistic, what is parry? It is deflecting their weapon with your own. Now if you can deflect their weapon, why can't you deflect it so effectively it falls out of their hands. The are soooooo many things disarm could be, its up to the person to rp it well. Like I said, case by case basis. I see people do it well, I see twinks, just like with any skill or guild. Now let's stop this, we all think spam disarm is bad, spam anything is bad, nothing we can do about it except copy it, send it to the mud, let the professionals deal with it.

[Quirk]

So what, disarm -is- a warrior's melee forte no matter how you slice it.

No. Warriors' uber weapon skills are their melee forte. A warrior will usually take down an equally practised member of any other class without breaking a sweat in normal melee combat with no need to resort to disarm. Where it becomes unrealistic is when significantly weaker warriors who cannot hold their own in melee can somehow disarm opponents whose weapons they can't even meet with their own to parry.

Now if you can deflect their weapon, why can't you deflect it so effectively it falls out of their hands.

That statement betrays a comprehensive ignorance of how fighting works. Parrying has been a staple of almost every method of fighting with melee weapons since the dawn of time. Disarms were for the majority of weapon styles rare and difficult to achieve against a skilled opponent. While modern sport fencing utilises weapons light enough that striking a weapon out of someone's hand may be possible on a frequent basis, this was not the case in many of the rapier styles it developed from, and most certainly is not the case in older sword and shield styles. How do you envisage these disarms working? What goes on in your head when you see the word "disarm"?

Quirk

[Anonymous]

What goes on in your head when you see the word "disarm"?

What's the difference? It could be any one of a hundred different possiblities to -how- it happened. I would think, as a player of Arm Quirk your imagination would be broad instead of so narrow.

[Armaddict]

If you aren't parrying, it can't be from a parry.  Which would be the beginnings of most disarm -maneuvers-, as people are describing.

Quirk's imagination is fine.  That's why they asked what -you- pictured.

[Anonymous]

Parrying a blade and striking against it from the opposite direction with another, levering it from their grip.

Striking their wrist or knuckles and breaking their grip on the weapon.

Physically striking at them expecting the parry, and when the do lean into it and use brute strength turn their wrist.

...and on...and on...and on...and on...

I can't even remember all the different emotes I've use for my disarms.

Whether they are exactly technically right or not isn't the question, so I don't want to see a bunch of different shit posted about how they are impossible or whatthefuckever.
It's a fantasy world, not reality. Every fucking single thing in it doesn't need to be precisely technically correct to the -t-.
Shit, I HATE anal retentive twits that think everything should be 100% realistic in a fantasy world...it's people like that who go too far and take a great game like Arm and turn it into a boring piece of shit like some of the others out there that are sooo realistic...they aren't even fun anymore.
Anyway, I'm sick of this whole subject, the fact of the matter is I have more faith in the imms to maintain the balance and keep the fun and fantasy in the game. There is a reason Arm is the best of the RPI and it's partly because some of the others have too much realism in them...it's just no longer fun anymore and turns people away. We do all play to have fun. at least I know that I do.

Post all you want, but I'm done...sick of it...and I'm out.

[Faglore]

I see disarm as several dozen possibilities, most of which have nothing to do with parry. If you, Quirk, would read the posts before my last one, especially Evilroeslade's, you would see that I only put that to explain why knocking a weapon out of their hand, even though you can't hit them, is possible. They attack you, you defend yourself so skillfully by blocking their weapon with your own, that you knock it out of their hands. I am also done, as this post has gotten to large for people to gather all the facts, and people are taking my comments out of context. I see that there is no reasoning with some of you, so you keep your opinions and I will keep mine. But I won't meddle with your characters affairs, and I expect the same courtesy from you.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Has anybody been listening?  From personal experience, I have as a warrior, been able to defeat OTHER warriors that were clearly better at fighting than I was just because I happened to be better at disarm.

I was better at ONE skill, and they were better at every other.

I'd like to hear how that's balanced once more.

[Faglore]

Because you choose to interpret that through coded actions, when their technique could have been sloppier, you could have have been more athletic, your eyes could have been better, they could have been overly confident in their attacks upon you. For example, they know they are better, they swing hard, you duck out of the way they stumble and lose their grip. You were getting your ass kicked, saw an opening to cause them to screw up, they do. Or, they hit you twice, because they are better, and rather then getting into a quick defensive stance they greedily aim for more, and you catch them off guard. Or as you were getting hit you learned their offensive pattern, spotted an opening, and in your desperation you get that weapon out of their hand somehow. I felt as though I owed you one last post, as I admire you ERS, since I assume you were referring to me as one of those people. Now I am officially done, feel free to pm me if you want to argue more as I am always up for it.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Make disarm harder to learn (in other words, a longer delay between times that the skill rises).

Make getting things from the ground during a fight harder (IE: apply the drop code to getting things if the character is in a fight).

There is nothing else to discuss. Nothing. The disarm skill is not overbalanced. You beat that fighter because you were skilled in that skill, which is an aspect of battle. There are more facets to battle than just hacking, or kicking, or disarming, or bashing, or anything else you can do. That is reality. You can not argue with it.

If that warrior had been as well trained in all the facets of combat as he should have been, you would have lost. He wasn't and he lost, because you had trained that skill better than he had. In other words, you had trained a skill that is crucial to the winning of battles.