Half-Giant Inventory

[Forest Junkie]

-And- make a campfire out of them?

I don't think I should even have to comment on how ignorant your logic is at this point.

[Trenidor]

Hmm, too bad for you...Why would a HG want a fire anyway? He's got more surface area to obsorbe the rays, and the thickness to keep heat in, plus it's a desert planet. (no need to get heat)

And if he really wanted to get rid of something, I'm sure he could squeeze his fingers together easy enough that whatever it is would break.

not to mention the fact that they are stupid...who's to say they could be smart enough to do it? That's why there are so few, and no giants (they got whiped out when they wanted to cook some food; the ones that survived only survived because of human help, and they started interbreading with humans creating what we now call half giants.) (maybe....I didn't bother to read any docs on it.........)

Giants = did not make it to fire
Humans = made it to sanitation and sewers, along with other usefull technologies.
Demihumans = aided in the human quest for technology

So there you have it. Half giants should only be used when you want a few logs shoved in the ground for a wall...not to make a fire.

Besides...it would take a bon fire for the guys to get happy  :wink:

I say leave it be, there are always ways around it (GET A PACK!)

[Stroker]

I don't think I should even have to comment on how ignorant your logic is at this point.

Oh, I'm sorry. I realize you could make a fire out of straw. But take 5 seperate straw stalks, tie them together with a piece of lint and then make a fire with that.

[EvilRoeSlade]

A half-giant couldn't wield a human-sized dagger, either.

He could however, find wood big enough to use and use it.

Just like when I buy a weapon I assume it's the right size for a half-giant.

[Forest Junkie]

Slade has made the most valid point. Certain components for crafting items requires MORE than a pair of items. At this point the game becomes unplayable due to limitations in the code, not the ability of the half-giant (why can they not realistically put the shit on the floor and work with it?)

[Angela Christine]

Sometimes you need more than three things in your inventory to pull off certain crafts.  So it's more than merely a nuisance, and I believe that the minimum inventory should be no lower than five.

I agree, but if an absolute minimum was implimented then it should apply to everyone, not just half-giants.  If a half-giant can manipulate 5 items, then a low agility dwarf or human should be able to manipulate 5 items too.


AC

[EvilRoeSlade]

That's pretty much what I suggest, Angela Christine.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Instead of just increasing the minimum number of items that anyone can carry, which would level out an advantage of certain levels of agility up to a certain point, why not just increase the overall arc?  In other words, add 2 items to the carrying capacity at all levels of agility, or something similar.

However, I'd like to point out that Dirr isn't entirely wrong, but I think his illustration was poorly chosen.  I've watched a few seasons of Survivor, the most recent of which was the "All-Stars" game.  18 people, and not one of them could get a fire going by rubbing a pair of sticks together.  In the end, they had to be given flint in order to start their fires, and even that required a good bit of coordination to manipulate.  The point is this - all crafting skills, including campfire making, require a certain minimum amount of agility in order to successfully accomplish - and half-giants have absolutely deplorable dexterity.

Therefore, the -real- question is not whether or not it is annoying to have such a sharp limit on what you can carry in your inventory at once, but whether the limitation was deliberately intended to extend to limiting what someone with that agility could craft.  Frankly, I don't have a problem with it, intentional or not, because it makes perfect sense to me.  If you don't have the agility to manipulate that many objects because you're that clumsy (and that strong, a bad combination), then you just don't.  It's no more or less realistic than two-ton, twelve-foot tall humanoids, so don't worry about playing the realism card.  And playability?  Got you covered there too.  A half-giant can break you in half with his bare hands.  Complain to me about not being able to use some of the crafting code?  Wah.  No sympathy.  I'm sure it sucks, but so would getting torn to pieces in one hit by a two-ton slab of muscle.

[EvilRoeSlade]

In the documentation it states that a half-giant's low agility is due to their size and muscle mass, which impedes movement.  It doesn't say their agility is low due to naturally dull manual dexterity.  Their agility score simply happens to affect playing a half-giant in a lot of areas (including eyesight), that it probably shouldn't.

And that aside, a half-giant doesn't need to have any large amount of manual dexterity, since she can easily utilize a torch, a tinderbox, flint, or anything else made for people who dislike making fires the hard way.

[JollyGreenGiant]

It doesn't say their agility is low due to naturally dull manual dexterity.

I'll agree with that, although you might agree that

size and muscle mass, which impedes movement.  

doesn't exactly paint a picture of deft manual dexterity, either.

[Armaddict]

So you're saying...people with bigger proportions are less -dextrous-?

That's a stereotype that got people killed, in history.  Heh.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I just imagine that it just makes them move slower, not worse at moving.

But it doesn't take much manual dexterity to throw a bunch of wood in a pile and then shove a torch on it.

[Angela Christine]

Instead of just increasing the minimum number of items that anyone can carry, which would level out an advantage of certain levels of agility up to a certain point, why not just increase the overall arc?  In other words, add 2 items to the carrying capacity at all levels of agility, or something similar.  

That could work.

Therefore, the -real- question is not whether or not it is annoying to have such a sharp limit on what you can carry in your inventory at once, but whether the limitation was deliberately intended to extend to limiting what someone with that agility could craft.

I don't think so.  The crafting code was only put in 3 or 4 years ago, the agility effects were put in . . . a long time ago.  I think the fact that agility limits crafting was an unintended side effect.  

Some things that require only one ingredient are very tiny, precise and delicate.  Some things that require 3-5 ingredients are very simple and easy.  Making a stew or a pot-roast would probably require at least 3 ingredient items, but would be a low-difficulty item.  The average half-giant should have a lot of trouble carving a tiny obsidian spider, but should not have trouble throwing a few branches (or logs) into a pile to make a campfire.  The number of ingredients needed has very little to do with the difficulty of attempting the craft.  

The difficulty of each item is set manually, and a half-giant will fail plenty at crafting because of his combination of low wisdom and low agility.  There is no reason that he shouldn't be able to attempt to use more items, it will mostly result in him spoiling more items.

AC

[Delirium]

If the crafting code could be expanded to use things that are on the ground and not in a character's inventory, that would probably solve most problems - especially regarding items that would require lots and lots of small things, or simply many components in general - plus some crafts just don't make sense for the target objects to be in your inventory.

I can see it now.. the wagon code is finally completed:

The skinny merchant drops a massive wooden argosy.

[spawnloser]

I can see it now.. the wagon code is finally completed:

The skinny merchant drops a massive wooden argosy.

JI will be that skinny merchant some day.  Oh damn, that would be the funniest shit 3V4R.

[Faglore]

You know what sickens me?  When someone doesn't see something as a problem and say so, but everyone else jumps down their throat.

Please show me where I jumped down your throat in my post? What I did say, is I dislike the suck it up thats how the code is arguement. The code should -never- hinder what is realistic. Sure a Half-giant can't keep track of several items. However, last I checked a half-giant knows how to open and close his hand. Hence, a half-giant could carry several items in his -massive- hands. Please do not take posts personally, as they are not meant to offend.

[Vettrock]

So you're saying...people with bigger proportions are less -dextrous-?

That's a stereotype that got people killed, in history.  Heh.

Um how many 6 foot, 250 pound gymnasts have your seen?

[Armaddict]

Vettrock:

One of my fraternity brothers is one for Utah State University.

Edited to add:

Ever watched wrestling in the olympics?

[Vettrock]

Vettrock:

One of my fraternity brothers is one for Utah State University.

Edited to add:

Ever watched wrestling in the olympics?

Yes, there are large gymnasts, but the point was, they are not the norm.  Bigger people tend to be less dextous.  There are always exceptions.

Additionally, with wrestling, the same thing applies, I would not consider an olympic athlete the norm.

If you are looking at the average population this generally the case.  When I took gymnastics in college (a required class at West Point) The people with the most difficulty were the varsity football players and varsity basketball players.

[Quirk]

Additionally, with wrestling, the same thing applies, I would not consider an olympic athlete the norm.

If you are looking at the average population this generally the case.  When I took gymnastics in college (a required class at West Point) The people with the most difficulty were the varsity football players and varsity basketball players.

Go along to an average judo club.

Note the resemblance of a great many of the players to large fridges - big, broad and muscular.

Learn to breakfall before you enter randori (sparring practice) with them, for your personal safety.

Note remarkable dexterity of said judo players.

Half-giants are not built to the standard human design. They attain sizes too large for the human bone and muscular structure to cope with. Their abilities are hence not directly comparable on a one to one basis.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Half-giants are not built to the standard human design. They attain sizes too large for the human bone and muscular structure to cope with. Their abilities are hence not directly comparable on a one to one basis.

This may be true, but for their musculature to be able to have the same agility, their bones must be proportionately lighter and easier to break, or they will suffer in speed having the realistically dense and large bones they would need.  True that their musculature is larger, but is it proportionate by dimension rather than mass.  A muscle's diameter, not its volume determines the proportionate strength, but volume does determine weight.  While a half-giant is twice the human norm in a dimension, they would, with exact same skeletal and musculature, be eight times heavier, but only four times as strong.  Now, four times as strong is impressive, and I'm not downplaying the damage that that could do.  Proportionately, though, they have less muscle/mass ratio as a human, built the same...and proportionately, they aren't very far off, from my observations.

[Bestatte]

I think the biggest issue here is a HUGE difference between ability to hold stuff and ability to use stuff.

Sure - half-giants aren't gonna be able to do intricate embroidery, or carve exquisite designs into wood, or work with gold filigree.

But they have HUGE HANDS dangit. They should be capable of holding tons o'stuff - even if they can't do anything with what they're holding.

If my character, with just plain ordinary "good" agility, can hold 5 items of various sizes - and mine is just some normal average human type creature with average strength...

Then a half-giant certainly should be capable of holding the number of twigs it takes to make a stack of unlit kindling. It takes no finesse at all to place twigs on top of each other and set them on fire. It's a code issue to be sure - but perhaps the code could be changed to reflect this -

Campfire-type-things and other *simple* kinds of crafting skills would take an absolute minimum of skill (which I think they already do), and half-giants would be able to carry a log, three twigs, 4 lengths of linen, and a ripe, squirming halfling under his arm - even though he wouldn't be able to turn all that into "a burning halfling mummy." Or maybe he would - that doesn't seem like a very complicated thing to do...heh

[Quirk]

This may be true, but for their musculature to be able to have the same agility, their bones must be proportionately lighter and easier to break, or they will suffer in speed having the realistically dense and large bones they would need.

I think you've rather missed my point. We're singing off the same song sheet. I was pointing out that larger human beings are not necessarily slower or less agile, but that as half-giants are designed differently from human beings, this does not offer a case for half-giants to be agile.

Quirk

[JollyGreenGiant]

> craft log twig twig twig linen linen linen halfling into burning halfling mummy

You have no idea how much I want to do this now...

[Anonymous]

But they have HUGE HANDS dangit. They should be capable of holding tons o'stuff - even if they can't do anything with what they're holding.

I can't see any way that this point can be argued.  Inventory size needs to be changed for Half Giants.  Whether or not the half-giant then turns around and crafts an intricate bone lock is something that should be addressed through RP, not by code.  Just like half-giants don't wax philosophical about life.