Masks

[sheep]

It's akin to going and getting someone else's corpse because they told you the player OOC it was there, even though your pc didn't just find it on their own.

There is no way you can RP this in any situation, and is very much inappropriate.

There may be a whole room of VNPCs there, but there are only going to be two or three who are right next to that person's character. If you get accused then just take it as bad luck and keep going.

[Grumpy Sneak]

Sorry, but the room desc is loaded with vnpcs likely there were many more around them than just two or three. It's not bad luck, not when they used the OOC knowledge to accuse my pc, if you can't understand that Sheep, then you still have as much to learn as the one who did it.

It's the same thing as me taking the knowledge that someone is a magicker and using it with another pc, it's knowledge that the pc didn't have but knowledge that I had.

It's flat out cheating, if you cannot see it...then it makes me wonder about how much you can be trusted not to. :roll:

[Bestatte]

Dear Grumpy Sneak:

No, I'm not the one who accused your character of stealing anything. But I'll mention a few things...call it a hypothetical situation and a VERY REAL possibility.

Once upon a time I'm in the Gaj and Gladiator biker bar. I got my sids in my pocket and my dagger on my belt, and my pack closed, all's well. This elf walks in - got his hood up, but I took a peek just as he was sitting down at the bar not far from me. Green eyes - not hard to see in that light, it's full daylight and the sun's shining into the building. Wearing red sandcloth doilies on his hips - and what's that? A carved bow poking out from behind his gold-threaded pack..not as tall as some of the elves I've seen before - but just as skinny. Oh and he's got mud on his boots.

I go back to drinking - ignoring pretty much everything around me. I go to take out some coins for another jug-o-crap, but the coins are missing. Well damn if that sneaky elf didn't reach into my pockets when I was ignoring him...damn it all to hell! So I accuse him to the templars, and he dies a very unpleasant death...

Turns out - the REAL thief was much smarter than this elf, and set that skinny boy up to take the fall. The real thief hid in the shadows and nabbed my goods, and no one ever suspected a thing.

Why did I accuse the elf? 1) he's an elf. Of COURSE he's a thief. Everyone knows that. 2) He saw me looking at him - he probably wants to kill me now, I should expect him to at LEAST steal from me. 3) He sat down at the bar not far from where I was sitting and probably could've reached my pockets with them long skinny arms of his. 4) It doesn't really matter that he wasn't the thief. All elves are thieves, all elves are scum and if my false accusation results in one less elf, so much the better.

In other words - sucks to be the elf - and it has nothing to do with abusing OOC info.

[Anonymous]

Players are going to learn from their mistakes. Asking them to discard basic survival knowledge they recieved from playing past characters is ridiculous. Your first character may go wandering out of the city with no water and die. Your second character is going to bring water. Where do you think the desire to bring water came from?

Learning to play realistically.

Most everyone who would leave the city in a desert environment would know to bring water with them. This arguement is another thing entirely, nothing like what we're talking about and I'm surprised you'd even consider this the same thing.

[Grumpy Sneak]

Whoever said I was an elf Bestatte? Odd, I don't recall ever saying that.

What? Because he was the only pc elf in the tavern then he was the only one in the Gaj? Sorry, sounds like the use of OOC knowledge to me. Your using the knowledge that he was the only pc elf in the tavern to accuse.

[sheep]

Learning to play realistically.

Most everyone who would leave the city in a desert environment would know to bring water with them. This arguement is another thing entirely, nothing like what we're talking about and I'm surprised you'd even consider this the same thing.

I'm sure there are new players who have gone out into the desert without some source of water, gotten lost, and died. If you personally don't like that example, then here's one that's more realist. I had a character that wore expensive things into the rinth. With subsequent characters I've learned not to do that. I don't consider it cheating, but I did utilize IC game information that I obtained through a previous character.

Learning to play realistically comes from obtaining certain IC information through many PCs. That information is then used in all future PCs unless a future PC is being RPed in a way that would force the disuse of some part of previously attainted IC information. Since I was discussing the use of OOC information, I don't see how you can not see how my example pertained to the discussion.

This discussion has caused this thread to be sidetracked. If anyone would like to continue this discussion, feel free to PM me.

[Anonymous]

I had a character that wore expensive things into the rinth. With subsequent characters I've learned not to do that. I don't consider it cheating, but I did utilize IC game information that I obtained through a previous character.

That information is in the docs somewhere about the 'rinth, again another meaningless and dissimilar example.

[Bestatte]

Whoever said I was an elf Bestatte? Odd, I don't recall ever saying that.

What? Because he was the only pc elf in the tavern then he was the only one in the Gaj? Sorry, sounds like the use of OOC knowledge to me. Your using the knowledge that he was the only pc elf in the tavern to accuse.

Odd, I don't recall ever saying that either. In fact I was pretty specific - it was a hypothetical situation. I didn't KNOW he was the only PC in the tavern, elf or otherwise. My point - since you missed it entirely - is that there are grumpy thieves even sneakier than you are, who MIGHT have ALSO been there. And in fact sometimes there are even NPC sneaks who are sneakier than you are. But that one elf - that was the one my character happened to notice. And that was the one my character accused. It has nothing to do with OOC info - I had NO IDEA if there were other PCs in the tavern, because hidden characters are, ya know, hidden.

[Grumpy Sneak]

Right, but I know for a fact, this wasn't the case. My pc was the one who attempted to steal but it wasn't a critical failure Which means all he got was a message about "someone" having their hand in his pocket.
You get me?
He picked me as the only pc there in a place that's supposed to be filled with vnpcs...I mean LOTS of vnpcs.
The only reason for doing it would be the use of the OOC knowledge.
If it hadn't been me at all then I wouldn't be upset by it because it would be IC.

Do you see where I'm coming from now?

[sheep]

That information is in the docs somewhere about the 'rinth, again another meaningless and dissimilar example.

What exactly are these examples dissimilar to? Is there a list of examples somewhere I don't know about? I feel that my examples have sufficiently clarified my point. Until a significant number of people have made it clear that they don't understand what I said, I won't bother explaining it further.

[Dakkon Black]

As it works on the other RPI mud a char with the skill can use it, and in fact they don't get a scrambled message, but they will either get the entire desc, or nothing at all depending on thier ability.

The other person gets the echo

The man is staring at you

The only other way would be a completely broken down description system
where in char creation you would answer like this.

The facial desk: (blah blah)
The torso: (blah blach)
Legs: (blah blah)
Arms: (blah blah)


Then if you have a cloak on, torso is hidden, but facial can still be seen with look. If you have a longcloak on now the leg desc is hidden too.
Wearing a poncho? Now there is no arm desc. Put a veil on, now you are covered and none of your desc shows through.

[Grumpy Sneak]

Your example are about rp information that people should have to play those roles realistically and they are available for use.

The fact that my character is the only player-controlled character in the room when you find "someone" with their hand in your pocket, out of the many that ICLY are supposed to be just as real to your pc, is OOC information that you are NOT supposed to use.

I really don't see what so hard about that concept to grasp.

Anyway, I'm done arguing about it...-I- will at least continue to play ICly and let what they did ICly bring about the consequences.

[sacac]

Dakkon, nice idea.. but it would really skrew up some more of my intricately detailed pc's.
It would disrupt the flow of the desc in my opinion.

[Armaddict]

Just one thing:

Me, as a rogue player, I say this:   If you don't want to get caught, don't do it.  People can and will figure out you're the one who stole from you.  I used to blame it on OOC abuse as well, but there are very viable IC ways to figure it out.  Blame on VNPC's?  They're the ones who don't grab much attention.  That's the fella who isn't doing shit.  PC's are the ones you -notice-.  The ones you look at and think, "Hey, he might have taken my shit."  Don't commit a crime, stick around to get caught, and complain about it.  Rogues have to be smart about their shit, not preachy about what went wrong.

I will, however, say this.  Rogues have to know their shit, because it is -not- easy to be a rogue, as someone stated earlier.  Yes, you can be very successful.  Yes, you can make a lot of money.  Fairly easily, if you're smart and have a certain skillset.  The hard part is escaping notice while you make this money, otherwise people will want you dead.  Even if you join a group for safety, it just takes one -little- fuck up to end it all.  Either one little fuck up, or one little notion of trust in the integrity of the game for the other player in a situation that they don't fulfill.

[Xan]

Dakkon, nice idea.. but it would really skrew up some more of my intricately detailed pc's.
It would disrupt the flow of the desc in my opinion.

Same here.

As for the whole thief discussion, its off topic and maybe should have its own thread.  My stance is that your character was clearly near his if you did the stealing, so he wouldnt be looking at the -whole- room but the dozen or so people right around him.  IMO one failed steal and i'd ignore it, more than one and i'd definitely point the blame finger, just because if someone keeps near you and you keep feeling hands in yer shit, well im pointing fingers.

[JollyGreenGiant]

It doesn't take a lot to impair your peripheral vision.  Any hood deep enough to really obscure your features would, really.  Masks would really do it.  Should people with their hoods up take penalties to scan?

A hood heavy enough to keep out biting sandstorms is probably heavy enough to muffle sound.  Should people with hoods up take a penalty to listen?

Opacity on a veil or facewrap goes both ways, so if it's covering your eyes and is sufficiently opaque to obscure what people can see of your features, it's also opaque enough to impair your vision.

I could probably think of a few others, but I'm too lazy to bother.  I'm fairly content to trust my fellow players to decide for themselves what they should or shouldn't see of me, and really, I don't much care if there are mdesc concealing items or not.  I can see why people want them, but "want" doesn't necessarily equate to "should have."

Another thing to consider is that sdescs and mdescs are all we really have, in game, to identify someone, but those only cover visual cues.  There are also audio cues.  Watching a Verizon commercial some time ago, I suddenly thought, "Hey, I know that voice.  That's James Earl Jones."  There are also olfactory cues.  My previous job, I knew exactly when the girl that sat across the cubicle from mine had come in, because she wore a very distinctive perfume.  Since we can't really make use of these kinds of cues in game, we're forced into using what we do have, which are visual text cues.  Therefore, in my opinion, you should never be able to completely alter the text that everyone relies on to identify you in game (excluding magickal means, of course.)

[wizturbo]

It doesn't take a lot to impair your peripheral vision.  Any hood deep enough to really obscure your features would, really.  Masks would really do it.  Should people with their hoods up take penalties to scan?

Are you sure there isn't already?  :-)

[JollyGreenGiant]

It doesn't take a lot to impair your peripheral vision.  Any hood deep enough to really obscure your features would, really.  Masks would really do it.  Should people with their hoods up take penalties to scan?

Are you sure there isn't already?  :-)

No clue if it exists or not :-)  But if it doesn't, maybe it should...