Why? Why do you do this?

[jhunter]

It's an issue because some people think that having a hood up or facewrap on is cheap invisibility, they get pissed because they think you shouldn't be able to see anything at all about them which simply isn't true.

You just have no option but to do a direct look just to see the things that you might notice with a glance.
How would you know if someone walked into the room naked without looking at them? That's something you would probably notice immediately,but can't tell unless you look at them.
I just laugh it off when someone gets pissed IG for my pc looking at them...it's akin to someone with an attitude problem in RL that tries to pick a fight because someone looked at them...pretty ridiculous IMHO.

[Agent_137]

I just laugh it off when someone gets pissed IG for my pc looking at them...it's akin to someone with an attitude problem in RL that tries to pick a fight because someone looked at them...pretty ridiculous IMHO.

I agree, I agree, but since it echos, it's IG, which means all this is IC. if your character gets pissy for people looking at him, fine. If your character doesn't give two shits, fine. If your character thinks no one will notice him in a bar at a table with a hood up, but people do, because it's not storming -inside- fine.

Just keep OOC feelings out of this.

Oh, and when you are talking to some one, you necessarily look at them. If you are leaning on the bar watching the door, you look at everyone. If you are drinking at the bar talking to the bartender, you might notice some one walks in, but you likely wouldn't look. Unless you're the paranoid type, then look!

[sarahjc]

Look does have an echo.. Ok.. But I look at random people when I walk into a store, or a bar. I may look at ten people.. or twenty.. When you walk into the supermarket, do you keep your eyes to the ground and head straight for the bread ilse?? No.. you look around.. Its big and there are lots of interesting people about..

What I think is more important isdo you notice them looking at you.. Most likely.. not.

You look at the stock guy loading up shelves with paper towel wondering if they are all going to fall on him. You look at the Milf that just walked by in her short shorts and Baby cart.. You may give a flirtly look to the guy at the deli counter, or you may.. I mean just may.. give a suspect glance to the guy who is standing around on the milk ilse.. wearing a baseball cap, sunglasses and a hooded sweatshirt!

Why do I look at the guy wearing all that more than the guy reading a magazine and standing on line with his grocery cart??.. Because he doesn't fit in.. That's why... In fact I would expect everyone in the store to stare at him..

I would expect that if an undercover cop walked in to buy milk.. that he would follow that guy out the store.. Maybe even ask him.. Dude, why are you standing in the milk isle all this time wearing sunglasses a cap and your hood.. are you cold?

I say blend or don't complain. As Jhunter said, it is not an invisibility pass..  Should people know what your face looks like.. No.. but do they now know what your build is.. what weapon you may have on or what kind of boots and gloves you are wearing..Sure.

[The Whip]

I am Pro Hoodie and I dont really care if they keep looking at me because its fun to get funny reactions. :shock:

[TripleX]

Drawing their attention to look at me when wearing a hood while my partner is pocketing them... fancy that merchant!

[Callisto]

I think you're all looking at this thread the wrong way.

If Joe is wearing his hood and face wrap and standing in a corner, I can understand people looking on and being suspicious. My problem is when as soon as someone in a hood walks in, it's a knee jerk for people to turn and look regardless of the situation.

Do all chairs and tables turn to face the last person walked in? Is there a little bell that rings as soon as a PC walks in? We can't ALL have our backs to the corner so we can see the entire room, folks.

It's all about situation: Why do people turn and look no matter what?

The impression I get from the responses so far is that it is fine to ignore the in-character situation when it comes to looking at people. There is a lot of points against the extreme of people wearing hoods and veils in a tavern and how suspicious that is, but the situation issue is relatively untouched by most people. Either people misunderstood my post, or this is one of those realism issues we're fine with letting slide in favor of being the all seeing eyes of Zalanthas.

[Xygax]

I'm not sure I agree with you, Callisto.  Unfortunately, the look command often gives the impression of a hard stare, when it really isn't necessarily that at all.  I "look" at people entering and exiting rooms most of the time, regardless of whether they are hooded/masked/etc., just to see if they ARE the sort of person I'm likely to take more detailed notice of.  Unfortunately, this is one of the limitations of a text environment (a limitation that I don't truly feel would be fixed by a "glance" command, or similar variant):  people have to "look" at things in order to gather enough information about them to know whether to interact with them or NOT.

That cloaked/masked/etc. figures seem to be attracting more attention doesn't particularly surprise me, or strike me as necessarily incorrect, eitherr, but of course it depends on the environment.  In a seedy tavern, it might be unwise to stare too hard at anyone, especially someone overtly concealing their features, but that doesn't mean you might not draw more than your share of wary, sidelong glances.  In a more posh environment, you might get looks of obvious disapproval from people who think you owe them the courtesy of at least showing your eyes or your face when you approach them (or even occupy the same space as they do), or from their zealous bodyguards, who might think you're up to no good.

All-in-all, I think there is plenty of code support for people to walk about un-noticed, if they choose to do so, and if they don't choose to do so, then they should probably expect to get looked at (and yes, looked at more than might seem normal in an RL situation where the nuances of a short glance, or the attentiveness (lack thereof) of the viewee may make all the staring seem a lot less intense.  I know I people-watch all the time without often being noticed.

-- X

[Carnage]

I think you're all looking at this thread the wrong way.

If Joe is wearing his hood and face wrap and standing in a corner, I can understand people looking on and being suspicious. My problem is when as soon as someone in a hood walks in, it's a knee jerk for people to turn and look regardless of the situation.

Do all chairs and tables turn to face the last person walked in? Is there a little bell that rings as soon as a PC walks in? We can't ALL have our backs to the corner so we can see the entire room, folks.

It's all about situation: Why do people turn and look no matter what?

The impression I get from the responses so far is that it is fine to ignore the in-character situation when it comes to looking at people. There is a lot of points against the extreme of people wearing hoods and veils in a tavern and how suspicious that is, but the situation issue is relatively untouched by most people. Either people misunderstood my post, or this is one of those realism issues we're fine with letting slide in favor of being the all seeing eyes of Zalanthas.

People do the same fucking thing if they see a new sdesc.

Oh! Haven't seen that sdesc before. Have you?! Let's look!

[Maybe42or54]

~all~ of us don't, Calisto.
I hardly look at anyone until I throw out a few talks or emotes and then (if they are still around) I will look at them.
unless of course my Pc is looking for someone, and that someone in a cloak that they usually wear walks in, then hell yes, I am going to look.
if they are wearing a veil, mask, something else that obscures the face only, then yes i am going to look, because I do not think they should hide the entire Sdesc.

[Trenidor]

I don't look, and I'm proud of it.

Personally, I don't see why people do it either:

First off, everyone in teh world has at least a cloak, it's a weird trend, another thing I don't understand.

2nd, the tavern is filled with people

3rd, people go in and out of taverns all the time, it's just easier to keep your hood up the whole time

4th, not all Zalanthans are friendly people, IMHO, the only reason you'd pull it  down when you entered is if you were a friendly person. Oh, and all those idle sitters, I'm fine with them having their hood up, it just helps show that you aren't going to do a thing but sit there.

Picture a cheery guy comming into a tavern, hanging his hat at the door, then walking to the bar and sitting down.

Then there's teh gloomy guy, he comes in, leaves his hat on and trudges to the door.

So really, there's no reason to look at someone with their hood up
And, there's no reason to pull your hood down unless you are a cheery person, which some people aren't

[Xygax]

First off, everyone in teh world has at least a cloak, it's a weird trend, another thing I don't understand.

It's not that weird a trend.  Wandering about in a desert world without a cloak is folly at best, downright suicidal at worst, depending on how rough your life is.  Most people who don't have reliable housing will need at -least- a cloak, and even those who -do- have housing are still likely to worry about destroying their silky-smooth skin in the five minutes they tromp through the next sandstorm to their estate gates.

2nd, the tavern is filled with people

3rd, people go in and out of taverns all the time, it's just easier to keep your hood up the whole time

Easier for you to keep your hood up, and easier for me to keep an eye on the door.    I do this ALL the time in RL, and I'm not even a particularly paranoid person.  I just like to see who's about.  This would be even more the case if I were sitting in a tavern that I sit in every day when I'm not working.

4th, not all Zalanthans are friendly people, IMHO, the only reason you'd pull it  down when you entered is if you were a friendly person. Oh, and all those idle sitters, I'm fine with them having their hood up, it just helps show that you aren't going to do a thing but sit there.

Picture a cheery guy comming into a tavern, hanging his hat at the door, then walking to the bar and sitting down.

Then there's teh gloomy guy, he comes in, leaves his hat on and trudges to the door.

So really, there's no reason to look at someone with their hood up
And, there's no reason to pull your hood down unless you are a cheery person, which some people aren't

In all but the finest of establishments, your "cheery guy" is nearly guaranteed to leave without his hat, having got it rather easily stolen by hanging it at the door.

That aside, I still think you and Callisto are missing the point of "look", which is at least partly an OOC tool for gathering information about the world around you.  It turns out that sometimes this tool yields IC interaction, but it's up to you to make that determination.  Unless I'm blind or standing in the corner "Blair Witch"-style, I'm probably going to have a good chance of at least catching a glimpse of most of the people coming into the tavern (even if only by my peripheral vision).  As the player, how am I to know if someone truly catches my eye from that brief glimpse, if I am not allowed to "look" at them by some nebulous "rule" of roleplay which says that it somehow doesn't make sense?

-- X

[Ghost]

And, there's no reason to pull your hood down unless you are a cheery person, which some people aren't

I had a templar nearly kick my ass, just because I was walking with my hood up, when there was no sandstorm around.  So I guess, you have enough reason to keep your hood down.

[Quirk]

I had a templar nearly kick my ass, just because I was walking with my hood up, when there was no sandstorm around.  So I guess, you have enough reason to keep your hood down.

That doesn't mean the templar was right. Keeping your hood up to ward off the hot sun is a perfectly valid reason when you're outdoors; that thin covering is all that's between you and sunstroke. Of course, when you're indoors, things change. Most of us, if we wander into a pub or restaurant and have a seat with our friends, will take our coats off and relax a little. It's odd to see someone keeping their hood or umbrella up indoors.

My gripe with look is that it's the only means of getting a rough idea of what someone is wearing and what they look like, and it spams an echo which suggests the look is much more intensive than a passing glance - in short, it's something you'd notice. This, I find intrusive, particularly as it's by far one of the worst sources of tavern spam (if a hooded figure walks into a room with eight or nine PCs, RP more or less grinds to a halt as the looks flood the screen). You can sort of get round this by using assess -v to get a rough determination of the age and shape of the person before you and "look X's cloak", "look X's aba", "look X's ring" to try and work out any obvious affiliations, but that's still very clumsy and won't tell you if they're stark naked or wielding a weapon - which are things hard to miss with even the most casual glance.

To tie this in to another thread, I would love a glance command that told you, say, the cloak or torso location piece of clothing, what the person had in their hands, and maybe the first sentence of their ldesc, and didn't echo. It would cut down on the number of embarrassing mistakes made by those trying to avoid spamming others, and reduce the spam remarkably as it came into common usage. Additionally, its functionality could be hijacked so that a "look" at someone in hiding actually gave only  a glance's worth of information, rather than their full description (bringing the behaviour of scan more in line with the help file).

Quirk

[jstorrie]

Looking at everyone in the tavern isn't always wrong, but I would say that it sometimes is.  If you're embroiled in a heated conversation, or staring listlessly into the bottom of your drink, you're not watching the crowd.

On the other hand, there are plenty of people who like to just hang out, relax, and watch people at the bar, on both Zalanthas and Earth.

The problem right now is that most people aren't checking their looks.  If it's unrealistic for you to be scanning across the crowd, don't!  If you're paying rapt attention to Lord Templar Jim or chewing out your table of Byn Runners, you are likely focusing only on that, not popping your head up every other minute to look at people.

[sarahjc]

I like the idea of glance as a none-echo command, but I am not going to stop looking at people. I "look" at people all the time. In real life and in game.

Example:

My morning Subway ride (now that I am bridge and tunnel)

I look at a "girl"  on the train. I look at her shoes, I look at her hair and her eye makeup. I may eye her skirt and decide that I think it came from Ann Taylor and I should take a stop by there this afternoon because its cute. I do all this in maybe a second or two.. and then I look elsewhere.

Maybe at the guy with a red hooded sweatshirt on with his hood up, I then shift my bag closer to the front of my body because he looks a bit shady with his hood up and his head down on the train. This is New York, I don't really trust people that don't show there face, most likely they are up to no good if they don't want to be recognized.

Again, maybe a second and then away at the Spanish guy listening to his walkman really loud, I  take a look at it to see if it is one of the new Ipods. I see that it isn't and then I look somewhere else, maybe at my reflection on the glass..

Then when the doors open.. I look at every new person that walks on to the train.. Every-one...

All this maybe takes a minute?? And I would bet money that not a one of those people noticed me with anything more than a passing glance if they noticed me at all.

We all "Look" at people. And in game the only way to look at someone, if you don't know their sdesc is to use the look command. I'm not always going to use the command on people that I clearly know.. I  know who they are.. I know who they work for, and I most likely will have an idea of what they are wearing, however occasionally I do use it,  just incase something has changed or I want to see what they are wearing.

I see it as a command and not necessarily an invite for Rp. If anything, I would like to see more people -ignore- the look command instead of complain about it's use. Especially you shady folk with your hoods up.  

Now I am not going to auto look you when you step in.. I give at least a minute for you to step in, emote and take down your hood. If you don't I will most likely look you. But because your hood is up I will also  ignore what facial features are in your M-desc.  And guess what, if you do lower your hood I don't know you. I am going to look anyway. I just don't see the big problem with looking.


As Xygax said. It is the only way that you are going know anything about a person is to use look.. I just don't see the big deal.


The pink Rhino looks at you the moment you step into the room, peeking under your hood and spoiling all your super secretes.

:roll:

[Trenidor]

ONe of the reasons I make a bid deal about it is that it fowls up my RP when I get this:

Ten PCs in the tavern, I walk in:

so and so looks at you
Joe shmoe  looks at you
what's his face looks at you
Billybob looks at you
The bartender looks at you
Bingo the drunk looks at you
Dingleberry the bard looks at you
Stupidface the town olf looks at you
Mr Fancypants looks at you
Mrs Fancypants looks at you

SOME OF THEM ARE FACING A DIFFERENT DIRECTION!

It makes me do my old western kinda move...

(que western music)
emote steps across the wooden planked floor, his chaps flapping and his spurs dangling.

"Wiskey, sharp."
"I can't serve you here Butch, the whole town hates you"

bla bla and so I rp out that I did something wrong, just because everyone started looking at me.

I'd be better if (since look is part ooc) there was a ooc look, or at least people typed look ooc

Cuz, I use look some times to see if someone noticed me...if they didn't say anything, or didn't look, then I figure they weren't looking for me.

I also feel that people tend to abuse their ooc knoledge some, I know we've all done it at least once. (or a few times) They'd read some stuff that -should- be covered. And then they'd draw conclusions oocly and start RPing out stuff that shouldn't have happened.
If you're using look as an ooc, sure, it's fine to just look, but if you want to RP something, at least let me know you're going to tell your buddy that I have my sword in my hand right behind my cloak. If not, it's like forceRPing me so I have to RP WHY you noticed my dragontatoo under my shirt, or saw that wad of sid stuffed down my breasts. (I guess the second is reasonable, lots of guys look down people's breasts)

Maybe you're just looking at me cuz I have that aura, but apparently -everyone- has that aura, the one that makes the hair on the back of your neck lift up, or gives you goosebumps on your arms. The feelign that causes you to turn your head from talking to someone just so you can look at this creepy thing.

Maybe it's becuase we wear bright red shirts, which are quite common for commoners these days.

I really don't know!

[Bestatte]

Seems pretty simple to me - if you show up in a place populated by people who do -not- have hoods up or veils on their faces - and you -do- have one or the other - you are -going- to stand out like a sore thumb. As for everyone and their brother looking...think of it like this:

Joe and John at a table in the back. Joe is facing the wall. John is facing the entry.

Sue, Sally, and Sam are at the bar. Sam has his stool turned to watch the room, Sue and Sally are facing the bartender and the wall.

You walk in.

John looks up from his conversation from Joe, to look at you. This brings Joe to the conclusion that there is something behind his back worth looking at. He turns his head and looks at you too.

Sam is already watching the crowd - his gaze suddenly focuses in on -something- - so Sally and Sue both turn their heads because they're wondering what has suddenly grasped Sam's attention.

And so on and so forth. It's a domino effect. If something -not usual to that location- happens or appears, everyone will eventually look. Unfortunately - a lot of people will walk in and go UP or east or whatever without any pause whatsoever. Which isn't exactly realistic, but maybe they just don't think there's a need to RP walking from the entry at one end of the room to the curtain at the other end. No biggie - but then they have no right to complain when everyone immediately looks, because otherwise they'd miss your magickal appearance and disappearance.

[sarahjc]

When I walk into the tavern with my hood up I get the same thing.. especially if it is crowded..

In a flash, 4 people look at me. But I don't emote response unless they use the look emote combo. To me it's just filler.. like the spam that pops up when I move to the next room. Examples:

Look Rhino.

Or

Look Rhino with a suspicious glare.

Or
Emote glances over at ~Rhino eyeing the knife tucked in ^Rhino hand.
Look Rhino


The First I would ignore and just chalk it up to spam. The second two, the other person is giving a signal that they want you to notice them looking at you. The code is there to support what you want and don't want to notice. I still just don't see the problem.  Hey if you want to be a freak and notice half the eyes in the room looking up to the doorway.. Go ahead.. But the first thing that I do when I walk into a bar is look for my friends.. I don't really notice the rest of the people who take a moment to look at the new person. Now if they continue to stare... (emote)  Then you  have beef.

The pink Rhino walks into the disco Saloon with a hefty push of the swinging doors her face masked by a deep hood..

(a shit load of people look at you including the scrawny toothless heroine addict )

Glaring at every set of eyes that look up to meet hers she juts forward at the scrawny toothless heroine addict.

With a snarl as she pulls his limp form to her face she says in disco jive. " You eyeballin' me son!.. Are you eyeballin' me?!

The scrawny toothless heroine addict lifts his head limply up into the Pink Rhino's face with a dull look in his eyes and says," Hey man.. I  was just hopen' that you was my dealer so that I could get a fix.. Relax man..."

I say learn to ignore..

[Trenidor]

Seems pretty simple to me - if you show up in a place populated by people who do -not- have hoods up or veils on their faces - and you -do- have one or the other - you are -going- to stand out like a sore thumb.

Not really....

Picture this...a smaller person, and a tall person come in at the same time, the tall guy has his hood off, and comes in first.

The small person has his hood up (he's a head smaller than the tall one)

They both have the same cloak on, and since the big guy's in front, blocking the view, one could think that the small guy is just part of his cloak, or is one of the cloaks hanging by the door, or just not notice him cuz he's smaller than the tall guy.

Yet, whenever this happens, I still get those:

so and so looks at you
Joe shmoe looks at you
what's his face looks at you
Billybob looks at you
The bartender looks at you
Bingo the drunk looks at you
Dingleberry the bard looks at you
Stupidface the town olf looks at you
Mr Fancypants looks at you
Mrs Fancypants looks at you

Even if it's a half giant!

Did I miss reading the documentation that zalanthans can see through people?
I"m not saying stop looking at people all together, I just think -some- people use it in excess. There's really no reason some people would be looking, like the other day I saw someone at the bar with her head down [it was in their ldesc] First thing they did was look at me, then I came over to her and sat down, starting to talk with her. She then said she was in a bad mood. [Now, if -I- were mad, and had my head down, frankly I wouldn't want to go looking at anyone, but instead stare at the knife scratches on the bar. Who cares if someone comes by, I'm still mad]

Bringing up another question, why do you look at the hooded figure, instead of the elf that comes in? Elves come in without even a glance, but someone in a cloak comes in, and they get the look.

Sure some people wear their cloaks in taverns so they won't be noticed, but not everyone does, I really don't think people would be that suspicious of someone wearing a cloak. Even if the docs say they would, I Don't buy it; Everyone has a cloak, why pick on the guy that wears his inside?

Screw it I'm moving to Red Storm.

[sarahjc]

Dude,  You're splitting hairs now.. Half Giant?? in turn to that I could say that maybe you were standing in front of the half giant, or just to the side..

Unless you emote.

The such and such mysterious cloaked figure walks in dwarfed behind the shadow the massive half giant..

And as for your elf without the hood on. Well perhaps he wont get that much of a look, Because people may know the Sdesc..

But he may get a few dirty emotes.

People look at cloaked people because they want to know who you areor why you are looking all suspect like. You as the player are just going to have to deal with that and trust that they are choosing what to see and what not to see is IC. When you walk into Lord Fancy pants tavern and you sit at a table with your hood up while everyone else is drinking and smoking and chatting with hoods down and much more comfortable that you.. Expect to be looked at. You are standing out batman..

Just because I don't use the look comand does not mean that I don't know a PC came in.. It just may mean that I know who they are and don't need to use the comand.

If you don't want to be looked at, don't wear a hood. I promise people will look less. Or hey move to red storm.

[Trenidor]

People look at cloaked people because they want to know who you areor why you are looking all suspect like.

Exactly, now tell us why people think we look like a suspect....

I believe that's what this whole topic is about.

[Unicorn]

Warning -- semi-derailing post.  Read at your own risk.


Every time I go into the convenience store across the street from my work place I snicker.  In the door is a big sign which reads:  Remove all hoods or large hats before entering store.  

Sometime in the last week they also added:  And take off sunglasses.

I've never seen anything like this anywhere else in my life.  Makes me laugh everytime.  Anyway, I guess the shop owners find something inherently threatening about hoods.  They see a possible thief.  They want to see the faces.  Just like all the lookie-lou's in our taverns.

[Forest Junkie]

The entire concept is OOC. It has been admitted to us by several players whom -have- to look at everyone, regardless. This much as been established. My question: So what?

I can get worked up all I wish by having 15 pc's in a tavern looking at me soon as I step foot in said establishment, but it's really not that big a deal. It's ooc, and I treat it as such. For this reason alone, I know longer wear my hood up in a tavern, I simply drop it and let everyone know who I am. That way I'm not payed any attention to.

To sum up this entire thread: Don't fret. Just ignore it and go smoke a fatty.

[Bestatte]

When the elf without the hood walks in, I don't have to LOOK at him to know that he's the blond-braided puss-faced elf. The room echo does a nice job of telling me that just by virtue of him walking in. If I decide I want to know more about him, then sure I'll take a look at the guy. But I already have, at the very least, some knowledge about what he looks like by his sdesc.

The hooded figure - I don't know if it's male, female, what race, if it's a noble I'm supposed to acknowledge once he comes further in..if it's the assassin who I learned was out to kill me - nuttin. All I know is that it's a figure wearing a cloak.

HE STANDS OUT because he is trying to make himself inconspicuous, while the rest of the entire room is NOT trying to make themselves inconspicuous.

Yeesh.

[Forest Junkie]

Exactly, which is why I have my hood lowered always. I play reverse psychology with you mother fuckers, you just don't know it. End game, junkie wins by default.