Unrealistic Sandstorms

[Delerak]

Here we go.  Something to get a few people pissed off (I hope).  I wanna know why Sandstorms last so long.  How Sandstorms can reach the Northlands (I'm talking the worst ones, if there is no sand, how can there be enough sand to blind you?) Even around the Southlands I don't think sandstorms that are that bad should be around for more then one IC week, (an ooc day or so).  And sometimes they last longer.  Which is crazy, usually a Sandstorm should die down by morning, or next morning, that's 2 days or so.  Sparse sands blow across your path are really good why can't we see these more often? It's like everywhere you go you see Terrible, biting sand, and can see only one room during the day and at night you Can't See a Thing!.  Or you see Stinging sand and can see 2 rooms or at night Can't see a thing!.  Anyways, let the flames/comments/agrees begin.

[Rindan]

I agree with Delerak, it is completely unrealistic for week long sandstorms in the magikly defiled post apocalyptic fantasy world...

Think of this logically for a few, especially when considering the south.  The south is a big dust bin.  The Sea of Silt, is a glorified way of saying an ungodly amount of very fine sand.  Realistically, it make sense that any time the wind blows, a dust storm follows.  It isn't like there is anything holding the sand down, nor is there a limited supply of the stuff.  Even in the North, I think you underestimate how much sand there is.  If you read the descriptions of the scrubs or the edges of the forests, it talks about sand dunes.  The Gray forest is basically a desert with some trees sticking out of it until you get deeper in.

I wouldn't mind seeing a little refinement in the weather code, but I would rather see it be more descriptive then anything else.  I would not mind seeing more increments of weather, greater effects from the weather, and different types of atmosphere effects like static lightening storms.

Purely from a playability standpoint, I'd like to see less Biting, you can't see a thing Sandstorms, or have them be less lenghty, there've been times my characters have been out of commision for about a RL week due to harsh sandstorms. Sure that's IC, but annoying as hell OOC, and if the OOC gets frustrated and wants to leave, the IC will find a way to do it.

Or at least make less biting you can't see a thing sandstorms inside these walled cities, it's a pain in the ass when not only can you not go out and hunt, but you can't go to the damned Gaj for fear of getting lost.

[Delerak]

My character got lost in the Bazaar during a sandstorm, (even though I knew my way).  I mean it's a bazaar, and the walls of these cities are 20 cords if not higher, they're meant to shelter the city, plus if a sandstorm lasted that long, I think the militia would have a shit load of sand-shoveling duty because there would be plenty of mini-dunes all over Nak or where-ever.

[creeper386]

For the most part I think even deeper into the forest there is still a good amount of sands. For the most part, from what I've heard and stuff, that the forest is for the most part dead, still losts of sand, dunes building up against trees, still pretty dry. If you take the whole northlands I bet the acctually prairie lands starts alot further west/southward but have been drowned out by the blowing of sand, before the sand gathers up on the ground and gradually gets less and less, no longer killing the grasses and such. But I'm sure even where the grasses is there is still lots of sand and dust and everything to be blown apart.

I think the really long sandstorms are just part of the world, though more variations would be neater. I mean.. It's not like there is lots of barriers to stop the wind, the sky is fairly clear, it's all muggy or anything that would slow down things. In hot air things move easier/faster. Try playing golf in the rain then in hot weather, can get an extra 50 yards on your drive in the difference.

I'd prefer the harsh weather, I mean this isn't Earth, I get enough of mild temperate semi-arrid desert-like weather(Eastern Washington SUCKS) I don't want Arm to end up bland.


Creeper

[Gorobei]

When I think of the northlands, I think of mostly plains made up of long, sparse grass growing out of the sand (think of a beach) and in some areas, thickets of trees.

[creeper386]

Acctually if I remember right you can often find a good large amount of slaves cleaning the streets. Sweeping shoveling and such, remember the city own LOTS of slaves just in the city alone, not counting the mines then gladiators and all that good stuff.

I won't agree that there shouldn't be the you can't see a thing storms in the cities, because even the harshest sandstorm during the day you can still get around in the city, it's only at night you have troubles, torches dont' work well when there is lots of sand flying about, so it'd be darker then normal along with the sand.

So I'd say don't travel at night with sandstorms.

Creeper who also thinks most the time you can still get around with a torch at night in a sandstorm as long as you know where your going.

Creeper is done now.

[Delerak]

Sure, I like harsh weather, I think that if a sandstorm is as worse as it can get, (blinding, terrible) you should have blindness set on your character for each room you go, unless you're wearing something on your face that stops it (sunslits, veil, masks, etc.) For the time being I hate seeing people walk around in blinding sandstorms and the only bad thing is that you cant see anything.  My big thing is that the sandstorms just last too damn long.

[Ezikel]

No matter how big the storms are, unless apocolyptic, a city that has been enduring those consitions for that long, will usually have pretty good devences against such things.  Even if its just really big walls, anything but a 'bad' sandstorm will proberbly be cut out for the most part, not completely of course.

As for the length of them, if think they're fine the way they are, extra visibility if yer wearing mask, sunslits, veil would proberbly be more realistic, but only because you can acctually open yor eyes without getting sand in there.

[Elven Mul]

Personally I am not in agreement with the constant unrelenting storms we've been having in the last week or so in the game. Having lived through dust and sandstorms both in Egypt in and China (Beijing has a serious problem with such owing to rapid desertification of the country) I can assure you that Armageddon weather is taking things a bit too far even for a post-apocalyptic game. The kind of sandstorms that last a long time are not the heavy and fierce ones, because those tend to blow themselves out or move somewhere else fairly rapidly. I understand on Armageddon there are areas of perennial storm, but in other areas the situation ought not to be so harsh.

Now, it's well understood that sandstorms are the consequences of (usually) human activities that leave the soil without any anchor such as grass, shrubs, trees, etc. The Northlands consists mostly of scrublands and forest, and these would serve as suitable buffers against sandstorms. It would mean that there would still be storms, but they would not be as severe as in the South, where there is practically no vegetation to speak of. Yes, if you read the description in much of the northlands there are references to sand and sand dunes, but the mere fact that there is scrub indicates that storms there would not be as severe as elsewhere. The exception would be sand and dust picked up from elsewhere and whipped to the North by truly tremendous winds, but again those would have to be somewhat limited by the very nature of metereological balance.

And of course the OOC annoyance factor of never-ending sandstorms can be quite severe, especially for people who don't have the luxury of playing the game hours every day. It may add atmosphere to the game, but it really cripples players who spend minimal time in cities. I'm all for the occasional sandstorm every now and then, but in my opinion the protracted incidents of sand and dust in the air ought to be more along the lines of "sparse sands blow across your path" rather than the "terrible blinding" variety. And there really ought to be fewer storms on the grasslands, that makes very little sense.

Think about it, the more fierce storms there are, the less seriously the playerbase will take them, because we just become used to them from an OOC point of view. On the other hand in times of less frequent storming it's much easier to role-play responses to a storm because it's more of an event.

[John]

Zalanthas is a world where there are plenty of magickers, people who control the very forces of nature. Perhaps these sandstorms -aren't- from a natural cause. Perhaps some Whiran is doing it either on purpose or accidently. Now baring this, Allanak is in the unique position of allowing magickers to practice their craft. Why doesn't a house or two hire a few Whirans to get rid of the sandstorm inside the city? I'm sure the Nobles can't be happy about getting their clothing dirty and the merchants can't be happy with the weather cutting down trade.

[Sokotra]

I disagree with alot of what is said in the above posts.  Zalanthas is a very harsh place with weather very different from that which we have here on Earth.  Everything is very, very, very dry... dust and sand is everywhere, even in the grasslands, and I think the sandstorms are a part of the game world that should not be messed with too much.  Even the walls of a city cannot reach high enough to prevent such things, only dampen the effects of them a little, as is already coded into the game.

Zalanthas has seasons as well, it seems, and there is always a certain time of the year where sandstorms are much more fierce and dominant.  And, as mentioned in another post, they could also be the product of other less natural occurences like majickers and sorcerer-kings.

[witchman]

I have to say that the bad weather (and night) used to annoy the heck out of me.  Sure it's all good for atmosphere - but if  I can't play the game, then it's pointless, right?
No.
If I find myself frustrated at a sandstorm and look at the game as unplayable, I'm playing incorrectly.  My PC lives in a desert word with huge sandstorms.  If there is this massive sandstorm s/he should act like it.  Stay indoors - do other things.  WWYD, you know?

I would like to see the following this imped with regard to sandstorms:
1. Stamina sucked at a higher rate when traveling in sandstorms
2. Damage IMPed in the most extreme and worst cases
3. Chance of sand-storm blindness and scaring (again in worst cases)
4. Moderate to huge sandstorms should allow you to see the the current room, but no exits
5. Protective gear that will avoid all the damage and extra stamina loss and some of the visibility issues.
6. Sandstorms shouldn't overwhelm the city, they have a Highlord, of course.

IMO

[creeper386]

Sandstorms do take extra movement when walking in them and it can be ALOT at times, sandcloth tends to fix it some as it can add a good portion of movement to your character.

I don't think making the sandstorms HARSHER would help anyone out.

I don't see even worse sandstorms showing you the room you are in, but you can't see the room good enough to see exits? THe room has a wall over there and over there, that wall has a door in it, and it's open land in the other two directions, which way can I go.

I say either you show the room and the exits or you don't show the room like it's already implemented.

Creeper

[Anonymous]

Indeed, I have the feeling some people take the realism thing a little too goddamned seriously around here. Remember, it's just a game. Making sandstorms harsher the way you propose would add a whole set of OOC problems such as for people with slow or unstable links.

It would also render the game quite tedious, annoying, and boring for almost everyone else. Just because you got used to the neverending sandstorms, Witchman, doesn't mean others did or have to, or that they want to see such stern changes take place in the weather coding. A sandstorm is still pain enough as it is, and brings its own severe dangers without the kind of realistic touches you suggest.

[Xanous]

It'd be nice if sandstorms were both harsh and brief.  

As they stand now sandstorms don't add anything to the game.  They are anoying and last forever.   People just start ignoring them after a while, and rightly so.  The grey forest had a 'terrible' sandstorm which never stopped for something like two or three RL YEARS.  You can't expect people to put off doing stuff in the outdoors, especially since sandstorm's penalties are rather minor unless you hit the ones that blind you.

And nothing irritates me more than getting a bunch of people together, rocking up for some big exciting event, getting your kanks and gear and supplies together and head out the gates and getting the blasted "you can't see a thing!" message and having to call the whole thing off and heading back to sparring/tavern-dwelling.  Grr...

It'd be really great if sandstorms were rare and BRIEF.  I'm talking like from 2 to 5 game hours and maybe 1 or two in any given area per RL day.  Instead of being the weak, anoying sandstorms we have now have them be really nasty.  Let them sap hitpoints, stun and movement points from you if you are caught in a storm.   Throw in a whole lot of modifiers for your clothing (sandcloth), race (elves), class (rangers vs non-rangers) position (standing vs resting).  Have sandstorms (at their worst) stop you from moving entirely.  Unprepared people should die in a bad sandstorm.  

Think of the first Dune book where Paul and Jessica had to hide in a tent overnight.

[creeper386]

I agree that perhaps alittle change could happen with how often or how long when it comes to sandstorms, but untill other things are alittle more realistic and such I don't see how making sandstorms another killer well help the MUD, everything already in the desert comes in packs for the most are and are uber powerful, we don't need super storms on top of that.

I think what they have right now is a pretty good balance though I agree that uber mobs suck alot but oh well, either you are smart, have alot of friends, or you die.

Creeper

[witchman]

The point in my previous post was this (apparently guest missed it):
Make the sandstorms even more dangerous and annoying.
Code clothing that negates all by the most minor of these.

Now when you get your friends together you'll *gasp* dress like there's a sandstorm out there and *gasp* you might get lucky and knock someone's sandshades (whatever they're called - can't think this early in the morning) off their head, blinding them.  Maybe an elf will steal your special webbed boots and then you'll be stuck pretty badly out there, eh?

I still say make 'em harsher but make there be ways around it.

And failing that, maybe the Anakore get more aggressive in sandstorms for being stirred up or something.  :-)

[creeper386]

Okay, revamping this post, don't remember what was in it but probably useless nothings.

You say the sandstorms that last forever, but are just sparse sands, I say basically you can think that there are sparse sands almost constantly but the storm is it being blown about alittle more.

I think the minor sandstorms do have the minor hindrances and are like they should be often and long lasting, what I don't think there should be is really freaking long storms that stop EVERYTHING.

Like I said before I revamped this, the Zalanthas have lived in a very sand-blowying world for a long time, I think the most that would happen is their skin would get alittle raw even for sandstorms that would kill us, Earth people, because they are alot more resilient then us.

I also don't agree elves should get bonuses while in sandstorms, they live in the desert, that doesn't mean they are immune to sands, in the real world here people live in deserts, but they don't just hunker down on a dune and wait out the storm.

I say make the storms more variant, but at the same time decrease the blinding ones that basically completely stops any outside RP(Make them so they don't last forever and a day, and only stop a few days before happening again, this is for playability not realistic issues) and make the small sandstorms that slightly decrease invisibility, happen more often.

I also think listen should be changed to allow more reliance on hearing then sight. Especially for rangers, make non sneaking things allowable to be heard moving about in other rooms, maybe the radius decreased in storms and such(I do mean a radius, at least going to ONE diagnal room in each direction if viable).

Creeper who revamped this post to more directly speak what whats his name is speaking about, and he read your post just fine but thinks that storms already are a hindrance they should be and in some circumstances are already TOO extreme for playability issues.

[creeper386]

I still say make 'em harsher but make there be ways around it.

Forgot to respond to this part. Like I said in previous post, things are already a big hindrance and there are some ways around it.

This whole thing reminds me about an AD&D DM's Guide, about creating a world, if you are going to make things different there is going to be less realism for the players to attach to. If the whole world's atmosphere is made out of some toxic gas, but everyone can breath in it, why make it different? And if they have to have some sort of device that allows them to breath, and it gets broken they are going to die, why would anyone go through the risk? If the devices are unbreakable, or it's some sort of permenant magic that lets them breath, why make it different?

There is already alot of people running around in similar equipment when I think it's alot funner when everything isn't quite so, oh whats the word, only wears things that are useful and actively being benificial? I mean sure people are going to take precautions against the sands unless they are stupid. Is why everyone has a hooded cloak, alot have sunslits or veils or cowls and so on and so forth. Even if sandstorms were beefed up but you can avoid them with certain equipment I'm sure people would always be wearing that equipment but alot of people are, Hmm... Same word I couldn't think of before, and would wear it just because they go into the sands alot or something.

I say keep it from being bland and lame, sure it's a desert world, people tend to wear similar things as others when in the desert, but it's a GAME lets have fun and not force people to wear the same stuff.

Creeper who wants to put a blip in about more clothing is needed in the game as a whole, and is just starting to get into submitting stuffs but isn't consumed by the fever yet.

[Xanous]

That sort of thing wouldn't cause everyone to wear the same thing, it would increase choices.   If harsh sandstorms were implimented, and equipement was made as counters to the storms then people would have a choice

1) Wear better armor or nicer looking silks and never leave the cities.
2) Buy a heavy and expensive tent and bring it with you. (provided sandstorms are shortened)
3) Wear the special desert clothing instead of your armor/silks.
4) Stay close to the cities and run back in when a storm picks up (there should be warnings).

Most people in the harshness thread agreed that they wanted the desert itself to be harsher, not the uber gith.  I think having harsh sandstorms would one aspect of that.

[creeper386]

Yes, I agree the desert should be stronger, but not to the point of having uber storms.

And you certainly can't strengthen the storms and still have shit loads of uber mobs that can kill you in a heart beat.

Although personally I don't see quite what the problem is... I've ran into storms that have lasted maybe a day or two RL which sure is too long but isn't incredibly detractive unless you play in the desert or play ALOT in the game.

Already I have troubles with keeping water in me while in storms and such, and on top of having reduced visibility to NO visibility storms are quite a hindrance right now without being completely, or drastically overbearing.

And then if you throw in uber MOBs, and it seems alot of them, the desert is incredibly dangerous, and the storms certainly do their job, ussually sapping massive movement, reducing visibility, making you thirsty quicker(I think it does this but don't know for sure, I go longer in a tavern as compared to in the desert as compared to in the desert in a storm)

Besides maybe alittle adjustment in how long some things last and making the lower end storms happen more often then no storms, and maybe adding more variations so it's not as dull, I don't really have complaints. Adding things like doing damage and all the other stuff, would just make playing in the desert that much more difficult, and I'm sure almost all desert dwellers would be wearing the gear that makes it so you can live in the storms. Then they get killed by the uber NPCs you run into.

If you make things so drastic, everyone problably well be carrying around a tent and probably the desert gear too, if they ever plan to go into the desert.

Hmm... Creeper thinks he's done, and is going to remember this time.

Creeper is against completely drastic changes that make things an incredible hindrance as to effect(affect???) playability.

[Samoa]

8) Creeper is against completely drastic changes that make things an incredible hindrance as to effect(affect???) playability.

If something is actively doing it, it is usually an affect.  These changes would affect playability.  To affect is to use the word as a verb.  It means to influence, which is how you meant it.  However, to further complicate things, effect may also be used as a verb, and also make sense in you statement - however, it is not how you meant it.  Effect may be used as a verb to state that these may bring about playability.  To say that they affect playability would be to say that they are causing a change, to say that they effect playability would be to say that playability would be caused as a result of causing changes.

In addition, you would be under the affect of something, you would have an affectation to chocolate bars, and you would affect dwarves with your stubborn personality.  

Effects, on the other hand, are largely what I said before: something that is occuring because of a change.  Like a result.  It can, however, be used in other ways.  Do not confuse being under an affect of a drug with a drug having an effect upon you.  To further complicate matters, someone would, say, use their affected Spanish accent to an exceptional effect at wooing the charming young lass.  Laws are put into effect.  Movies use special effects.  Scientifically speaking, laws are always effects; the Doppler Effect, for one example.  Effects are also personal belongings.  They would move all of his personal effects to the new apartment while he was at work.  Finally, and I may be forgetting one or two in here somewhere, you can use effect to say 'more or less'.  Like, "Well, I don't know, he said he liked vanilla or strawberry pudding or something to that effect."

The end.

Now don't EVER screw this up.

[creeper386]

DONT READ SOMOA'S POST! IT'S MORE CONFUSING THEN BEING CONFUSED IN THE FIRST PLACE!!


Creeper is completely lost now and is thinking about just using eaffect for everything and people can just put in what they think is proper.

[Eternal]

Makes perfect sense to me, the difference between affect and effect is very clear and straightforward.

Samoa just does a better job of expanding upon it than I might.