Suffer the Highlords Fury, crminal !

[theebie]

hi there.

i've got an idea about the gate-guard-instant-deaths.

as situation is right now, in allanak, if you carry something forbidden
in your inventory (like a pinch of spice), and you enter the city, you
instantly die (6 guards storm at you, and kill you before you can even
get from your mount).
i find this quite unrealistic, and it takes a lot of fun from play (lost
a 30+ day char to that stupid mistake)

how about this instead:
- the gate guards guard the gate (like with the 'guard south' command,
they dont let you through (unless you're a good thief, and can pass
all the guards 'guard' tries)

- if you want to enter the city (and you dont have illegal things, and are
not wanted) you approach the guards, and they search your stuff
(like they do now already)

- if they find something, they point at you, and say "suffer the highlords fury, criminal", and then they dont instant kill you, but give you
1-2 seconds time (like the soldier starts to draw his sword and points it
at you)

- in that 1-2 seconds time you can either flee (my choice) or try to run
past the guards into the city (both times you are wanted of course)

- if the guards dont find something, they just let you through

what do you guys think ?

---theebie---

[Pantoufle]

Won't using nosave allow you to surrender rather than suffer an immediate attack?  I suspect what is happening when you attempt to smuggle in spice is that the guards try to subdue you and your agility roll evades their attempt, following which they proceed to attack.  Sadly, all this happens in a milisecond but you still should be able to prevent attack by using nosave.

And if they don't try to arrest you, well then the sentance for smuggling spice is obviously very steep (death penalty) and, 30+ days on your character or not, you should make absolutely certain you are aware of the consequences of your actions.

[UnderSeven]

In order not to get searched, don't try to enter the gate.  

As far as them drawing their swords and leveling them at you, it's a matter of they are searching you and ready.  There arn't six guards at the gate, there is more like a hundred.  So really it's pretty fair to say a single person wouldn't be able to escape.  As far as instant death, enter the room with nosave on and they'll just drag you to a cell.  As far as sneaking past, Imagine the gate is made in such a way it's simply not possible.

[Anonymous]

Pantouffle is right.  If you have nosave on when you enter the gates, at worst you'll be subdued and jailed.

[jhunter]

I was thinking that since gate guards are actually supposed to represent more that they should be units of guards stationed there instead of the somewhat misleading four npcs that are to represent them.

Then again, it would be odd to see someone being hauled through the city by a unit of guards I suppose.

[UnderSeven]

It'd be nice if the hauling was maybe done by the single npcs and there was a unit or two just standing there to give a better idea of how guarded the gates really are.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I don't think it would be possible at all to escape in the situation you described.  You deserved to die.

[Northlander]

I think what could help, along with stationary units, is simple, atmospheric code reminding fresh visitors of the illegality of spice.

You hear a voice shout from the east:
   "There's spice in this pack! Arrest the smuggler in the Highlord's name!"

There would take some thinking to avoid soldiers shouting this when on Caravan Road, in the midst of carrying someone off, or it could be solved by having another stationary NPC; and perhaps they are there already.

With the scripts that already exist, similar shouts and echoes could be set to occur at irregular intervals, and probably to cease between nightfall and dawn. Few characters would ride into Allanak unaware of the crude legislation on spice, and this addition would have a chance of reminding their players.

[Angela Christine]

It'd be nice if the hauling was maybe done by the single npcs and there was a unit or two just standing there to give a better idea of how guarded the gates really are.

That is an excellent idea.  It would also be very handy for when the occasional mekillot or other nasty critter wanders up to the gates.  I always find it a little disconcerting when I go up to the gates and there is No One there, and yes, I have seen this a couple times.  


AC

[sacac]

get brick of spice pack
run
e
E
e
E
e
E
say (Wiping the brow) Whew, they'll never get me.



No, I'm not in favor of this idea because it would be unrealistic for you to just "Run" past them.

And
flee e
e
e
e


Doesn't make me change my mind either, So leave it the way it is.

[wizturbo]

Agreed, there are TONS of soldiers at the Allanak gates.  Sneaking past them -should- be possible considering the crowds, but if your caught, escape should be near impossible.

[Anonymous]

While we are at it, how about a nice 'big fat mob' NPC hanging around underneath the Statue of the dragon?  I think a lot of people miss the fact that the room just west of Allanak's west gate is loaded with VNPCs including nobles and commoners, unless the room description changed recently.

[Vettrock]

The problem I have is most of the time In the past I didn't realize I was doing something illegal so I didn't have the nosave on.  I used to walk around with nosave on all the time, but then you can get posioned even if you are a dwarf (with are virtually immune to poison) and fail all of your other saving throw so that Kinda suck.  I know what is gonna get me arrested now and I haven't had trouble in a long time, but I think it would be nice to have a seperate nosave command for surrendering to the guards that I could leave on all the time and not worry about screwing everything else up.

[Agent_137]

The problem I have is most of the time In the past I didn't realize I was doing something illegal so I didn't have the nosave on.  I used to walk around with nosave on all the time, but then you can get posioned even if you are a dwarf (with are virtually immune to poison) and fail all of your other saving throw so that Kinda suck.  I know what is gonna get me arrested now and I haven't had trouble in a long time, but I think it would be nice to have a seperate nosave command for surrendering to the guards that I could leave on all the time and not worry about screwing everything else up.

Make "You are wanted" an event that triggets the nosave command.

problem solved. Just remember to nosave off when you are already arrested.

Some one else came up with this idea.

[X-D]

Make "You are wanted" an event that triggets the nosave command.

Thats just as bad as having to remember to nosave on, now I have to remember to nosave off as soon as wanted..blah. being wanted is not 100% getting caught, who wants to have saves off when trying to escape, specialy since a lot of escape methods require saves.

[Agent_137]

Make "You are wanted" an event that triggets the nosave command.

Thats just as bad as having to remember to nosave on, now I have to remember to nosave off as soon as wanted..blah. being wanted is not 100% getting caught, who wants to have saves off when trying to escape, specialy since a lot of escape methods require saves.

if you want to try to escape, don't use the event. der.....

use your own discretion.

[X-D]

Point being, it solves nothing, it just trades problems.

Also, of late, I've seen very few people actually killed north or south by the soldiers, I've seen a lot of pc's mortaly wounded then subdued and taken to jail, but thats still survivable in several ways.

Personaly, I think things are fine currently with nosave and crim code...I only wish for delays on npc actions to match pc actions. Always jarring to see a soldier rush in, yell something, sheath weapons, attempt subdue, draw weapons(or not in some cases) beat on the pc 8 times, mortaly wound them, sheath weapons subdue and leave the room, all between a single set of prompts.

[UnderSeven]

I actually changed my mind on this.  I now disagree and here is why:

1) Sometimes you get crim flagged without really expecting it and you can't expect people to always have nosave on.  What does this mean? Well your pc automatically - and the code assumes - that you will resist, where as you may very well not want to resist.  Course most of you will then argue then play with nosave, but that's ridiculous because then you're completely opened to being subdued in the street, without the subduer being crim flagged, thus making it suicidal for you to do.  Yes I've seen pcs try subduing others seemingly without warning before.  Now, in MOST cases this isn't a problem anyway because in the streets you rarely see so many soldiers in one place tht you can't switch nosave on, BUT at a gate where you see six or seven, put all those things together 1) not expecting to be crim flagged, 2) the code assuming you resist and 3) six or seven soldiers and what do you have? You have a mantis head before you even knew what hit you.

2) My second problem with this is stemed from just that, the fact the code ASSUMES you resist.  This once again isn't really a problem except in suicidal to resist choke points where you would be massacred.  I suspect also MOST deaths that occur in those places are deaths of unknowing pcs who didn't expect to get jumped on and thusly didn't expect to NEED not to resist therefore being dead before knowing what hit them.

3) At the gate you only GET checked when crossing the room.  Oh thats great, so more or less if you are going through gates you are ALREADY resisting because you're crossing rooms IE running away, even if it's not even remotely your intent.

SO what does this amount to?  Take a step back and think about this, I know the suggestions are if you're crossing gates, use nosave.  But honestly if you cross these gates often, or didn't know/forgot that clothing item had pockets with x item in it, or someone planted something on you, then you very likely won't have nosave on, also it would give pcs tring to kill you an easy way to do it, wait one room away from gates, subdue x pc.  Their nosave + your waiting for them = easy pk.  Also from the guards point of view, there is a tun of them at  security check point.  Is their first instinc going to be kill everyone who comes through here? I'd like to say no, probably not, is your chars first instinc when they say you have something illegal on you to be to throw punches? Very possibly not.  

This system should probably change, because I think it results or will result in some ridiculous deaths.  What I'd like to see is at the gates the code NOT assume you will resist, but actually assume you won't and in order to resist, said pc has to actually TRY to IE leave the room.  In addition to this change, I think the code shouldn't check you for spice LEAVING the gate room, but ENTERING the gate room, thus ensuring that you're not already tring to escape.  Finally, qued walk commands should be canceled when you enter a coded check point.  

So my proposal would be this:
Pc enters room, gets searched, if contraband is found, pc has oppertunity to nosave before they are assumed to be resisting, infact should only be assumed to be resisting if they actively try to leave the room or get into a fight.  Sneaking past the guards would have to be done entering the room, rather than leaving.

Why I feel this is important is because presently a non-combat pc, who enters those rooms without knowing/expecting to have spice it IS a deathtrp for them and really no reason why it should be.  IS a rich merchant reallly tring to resist?  Are these guards so blood thirsty as to make merchant houses (the big ones) feel their merchants are unsafe and therefore not send them to the city and therefore hurt the city economy?  No.  Therefore why would they splatter them?  Well, only because of the code.  This was just a example, but I feel this system needs to see some change.

[Cenghiz]

I wonder what if only the soldiers had 'mercy' on. Can NPC's have mercy on? I assume they may, because I guess a few specific humanoid NPCs just hit you till you blank out, then steal your valuables and then get back to their original duties. If they can, let them withhold the killing blows.
I still insist, it _was_ easy to get rid of the soldiers before for a mediocre pickpocket who lived for about 3 days (Err.. to tell the truth, I was powerplaying a bit those days.) . Does anyone know what made them that angry? Maybe I should give up playing defiler muls and play another pickpocket just to see.

[UnderSeven]

I would LOVE to see soldiers have mercy on.  That would solve the gate problem easy and might just in general make the crim code more realistic and I don't think it would really make the game any less harsh, just add more interactions to deaths as then templars would get their hands on you.

[spawnloser]

Yes, NPC's can have mercy on.

[Delirium]

When I used to walk around with NPCs protecting me, normally the first thing I would do was order them to put mercy on. And it worked.

So.. yeah. They can.

[UnderSeven]

So we know that it can be done, the question is, how likely is it that it will  it be done.

[spawnloser]

Indeed...that is the question.  Idea it in game and send an email to the mud account?

[Quirk]

Another useful addition would be to have the soldiers packing blunt weapons instead of axes and swords. That way, the stun damage is likely to bring a KO well in advance of death, and the comatose PC need not be mortally wounded to be dragged off to jail.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Hey, either way that increases people's ability to not get killed by bullshit is fine with me.

[UnderSeven]

I Agree 100%.

[Angela Christine]

I wonder what if only the soldiers had 'mercy' on. Can NPC's have mercy on? I assume they may, because I guess a few specific humanoid NPCs just hit you till you blank out, then steal your valuables and then get back to their original duties.

That isn't necessarily Mercy.  

Normally if you strike a blow that renders someone unconcious or helpless you will automatically stop hitting them and have to type "kill <target>" again to finish them off.  However, other people fighting that same target will not stop, so you may not notice this effect if you rarely fight alone.  Some non-agressive NPCs will stop fighting when you fall unconcious, and then ignore you until you wake up.


With Mercy you will withold a potentially killing blow, even if the target is not yet helpless.  So the target is still trying to kill you, but you are trying not to kill them.  If the target is concious and has 1 hp left any hit will potentiall be a killing blow, but the target can still execute any combat manuver or run away, just as well as if he had 80 hps.    Theoretically you could be killed by a much weaker target if you forgot to turn off Mercy.  Thug NPCs don't use Mercy, because if they stop hitting you when you are standing there with 1 hp left they still can't strip all your valuables, they need you unconcious or helpless.  


AC

[UnderSeven]

If mercy doesn't work for the npc soldiers then I'm all for clubs.  ANYTHING that might make the soldiers not kill people so often.

[theebie]

i think even with mercy on, a handfull of half-giants will just kill you by accident (fail their mercy-roll)

[Agent_137]

pretty sure they do this anyway.

[X-D]

(pointing at agent) You can bank on it.

[Ghost]

I guess mercy could work well with the NPCs, bu the question is:  Do they really care?

Would they care that someone is going to die?  To them, you are a criminal who refuses to surrender (Well, if you dont have no-save on you are refusing to surrender)  They will not get punished if they kill a bunch of criminals, but they will probably get punished if they let them run away with that.  So they are just making sure, you are not going to run away.

And the death of a criminal means, one less of the trouble.  Which is quite welcome from their view.

Well, this was an objective perspective.  I still know it is a pain for PCs, for their being so uber, and even one little mistake is to say "bye" to your lovely PC and so much effort along with that.  If we are to save the pain, then blunt weapons can work fine.

EDIT: And, let each one of them use shields.  So there is less attack, and more chance to be knocked unconcious, before meeting your mantis head.

[Angela Christine]

Heck, they'd probably prefer to kill you.  Then they don't have to drag your sorry ass half way accross the city to the jail, complaining all the way.


It is unlikely that southern soldiers will ever switch to using shields, because shield-use is more of a northern fighting style.  NPCs should follow the documented trends.  They could switch to blunt weapons, the problem there is that Allanak is known for it's obsidian mines, and there are few blunt obsidan weapons.  There is also the problem that NPC soldiers often seem to ignore unconcious people.  That might not be a big issue for a pickpocket or petty smuggler, but it could be a problem if the intruder they just put to sleep was a mekillot, because eventually the mekillot will wake up and resume kicking ass.


It would be nice if soldiers would attempt subdue, pause a beat, and attempt subdue again before going in for the kill.  But I guess that would be too open to abuse, TOO easy to escape while the soliders are pausing, especially if you are moving at running speed, have long legs, and good agilty.  Yeah, I'm talking about you, longneck.  


AC