Players expectations for each other

[spawnloser]

Okay, so recently I heard of someone badmouthing a clan they used to be in.  Personally, I felt the attack was unwarranted.  The claim was that the clan was stagnant...for a clan that has changed more in the last year than any other clan that I know of, that was a pretty bold claim, in my opinion.

In response to this, since it hit several of my pet-peeves all at once, I would like to list a couple of my expectations for my fellow players and give everyone else the oppurtunity, considering the recent airing of expectations tred, so that everyone is informed.  This is not intended to be an attack at that person, but a reminder or response to his perceived attitude (for some of these expectations), as well as information for others.

1- I expect people to play realistically within the game world.  Sure, go ahead and do whatever you think is fun, but follow the docs.  If you join up with a noble house and try to change it into something it is not, expect to be shot down.

2- Do not badmouth something because you weren't having fun.  You having fun is your own responsibility.  You created your character, and if you aren't having fun with it, you did something wrong.  Noone else, including player and staff, forced you to play the character the way you have.

3- For those in leadership positions, have some patience.  The person above, basically, ditched out completely on his leadership position because change from what he perceived as stagnant was not coming quick enough.  Let me tell you, I've put up with so much boredom with a character and still stuck through it for those good times and for those that I was supposed to be a leader for.

4- Give people a chance to respond.  Yes, people get upset when they have to wait too long, and I'm one of those people, but damn if I haven't seen people that don't even wait for responses and just keep typing.  I swear, half the time these people aren't even looking at the screen.  If you want to talk over someone, go ahead...but some people will not appreciate that much.

Anyone else?

[Bardex]

Remember the genre and attempt to RP accordingly. That would be my "expectation" of players. Try to be consistent with your character's personality and situations. Note that I am not expecting everyone to succeed. I am expecting everyone to try. Just like our game's skills list, we can't improve if we have no failures to improve from.

If you are interested in PK - and there's nothing wrong with that! - just PLEASE remember what's going on, where you are, and don't target newbies simply because you know they have sids and are easy kills. Target them because you hate the boots they come with. Target them because they keep spawning next to the cot you sleep on. Target them for a realistic reason. Or stop targetting them altogether. You do no one any favors, certainly not yourself.

If you are interested in RPing pregnancy - pay attention to the timeline in the game, and react to your character's bodily changes accordingly. If one day you are RPing this humongous swollen belly and 3 RL days later you're behaving shocked that people even notice - then something is wrong with your understanding of pregnancy, or the timeline, or both.

If you want to play a tribal character, don't get upset, or even RP being upset, if other tribal characters make comments when they notice you wearing a city clan's cloak. Expect it - because tribal people are tribal, not city. You are doing something out of the norm and should accept that people of your ilk will have something to say about it. The same goes for elves riding kanks, and rich people wanting to hang out in the rinth, and Bynners traipsing into the Trader's Inn to swig down a glass of wine.

In summary - there are -guidelines- that determine what is "normal" in the world of Zalanthas. You are welcome to go outside those guidelines, but -only- if you accept the fact that your character IS behaving abnormally and will eventually be called on it. If you cannot handle the IC repercussions, and roleplay out those repercussions in a believable manner, then please don't stray from the "norms" of Zalanthan society. Try vanilla before you venture into pistachio.

[Larrath]

Lie badly, at least once.  And I don't mean some cutesy little funny lie.

I mean "No, Mr. Templar, I didn't see a man in a black cloak running through here...and I don't know what kind of wine he was smuggling, either".  Get nervous, get scared.

Don't start recruiting VNPCs to your aid.  They can laugh if you think your joke was especially funny, but once they are starting to help you in a brawl, you are starting to cross the line.

Miss, forget or ignore critical information, like the thief who's hiding by the corner.

[sacac]

Am I the only one that doesn't write important things down?
Anyways. Stop making Perfect looking PC's.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Stop making Perfect looking PC's.

[Quirk]

Clans frequently tend to restrict players in a multitude of ways. This is fine. If the clan however gives nothing back RP-wise in return for these restrictions, the player is perfectly entitled to gripe that he or she is getting a bad deal.

Edited first to catch a typo and secondly to cut out parts that were suspiciously like a flame.

[Boggis]

If every player followed Sanvean's recent post: http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8545 that'd be grand. I don't think you could ask for much more from fellow players.

[Cenghiz]

Stop making Perfect looking PC's.

No! I've never made one.. But I'll make one, a very beautiful female merchant and will try RP'ing the advantage.. I believe it's not too bad if it's only for one char.. Is it?

[EvilRoeSlade]

As long as you make her dark-ski...

Oh, you're kidding.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

[Agent_137]

Flames, posts that might anger people, post that are borderline, or anything of that nature belong in a PM. People are more willing to understand the opposing side when they aren't hung up before the entire community.
===============
Moving on, I expect people to work with newbies, even if it's just an OOC on the link to the helpers page with an "ask one of them." If they haven't read the docs, tell them to politely, don't ignore them. Old players in this community leave, you've got to have new people come in. And no one will be an expert from the start. It's so strange, people always forget their newb days, or they somehow glorify their newbdom into something thats superior than the current newbs.

You spend the entire game putting yourself in your characters shoes. When you run into a newb, put yourself in their shoes for a moment.

(now, i'm not saying there's a trend of newbie hate here, because there isn't. My expectation has been met very well. But it is still my expectation.)

[Cenghiz]

Aah! Newbies... Draw the line somewhere. If someone's reacting to my OOC's, it OK but....
Once I remember someone just walking to me and saying: "I'm a pickpocket." After a chuckle IRL, I OOC'ed "You wouldn't say that." but she OOC'ed "No I would." and walked to hold my char's arm to help him. So my char became as rude as he could to her, because she was a pickpocket and she was trying to touch me!. After that, if I remember right, there was a post on GDB on oldbies' being rude to newbies. *chuckle*
Eh, I even ignore the RP polices and don't kill newbies if they're trying to be good RP'ers, I even give long OOC explanations to them with my elf, after sheathing the dagger back. But please, they sometimes deserve a little whacking.
And... That was not my point to reply;

Oh, you're kidding.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

Heh, no sorrily I'm not joking. I'll do that. I'm bored of warriors in shiny armor, assassins of the darkness and the blubbering magicians. I played a woman before and I believe it was not very manly or extra feminine. That woman was a bulky bastard. This time I want a cute little girl. A real cute one. She will be dark-skinned of course, but I wonder if she'll be OK with you people. I want your permission to play only one very very very beautiful lady. OK?
(Sorrily I can't bribe with MUDsex, I'll blank out in such a situation. It's too weird even for me.)
Note: Ehrm... Sorry if I derailed the thread a little bit too much.

[ShaLeah]

Okay, Quirk, if you're not going to contribute to the conversation, why talk?  I stated my position, you attacked me with a claim that I was attacking someone.  I further explained my position, so maybe you would understand that I'm being honest.  Believe what you want to believe, I could care less what you think about me, since you can't seem to take what I say for face value.  Now, please, I really want to know what others think and also think that there are others that would like to know what their fellow Armers expect, so take the pollution elsewhere please?

Your responses to -his- responses are pollution as far as I'm concerned. Hello pot? This is the kettle calling....

Now, in an attempt to get back on track...

1- I expect people to play realistically within the game world.  Sure, go ahead and do whatever you think is fun, but follow the docs.  If you join up with a noble house and try to change it into something it is not, expect to be shot down.

I agree, but I don't think that your last statement is accurate at all. I expect a House to cultivate the changes that are brought on by their PCs. If a new Lieutenant has a better schedule, one that is more engaging, would a House really force something to stay the same? I don't think that's realistic. Expect it to be shot down if it's a bad idea.
By the way, if there is a world wide psionic attack, the sick should keel over, women should miscarry, warriors would piss themselves, merchants would not be sitting in taverns drinking tea, I'm really disappointed in the reaction to that particular RPT, I don't think people understand the gravity of a psionic attack. Tribals should only join city houses on very rare occassions, southerners in Tuluk should never, ever feel comfortable there and vice versa, people should use assassinations more, desert elves should never be seen within a city for more than a moment, slaves conditioned from the time they were born shouldn't be fleeing their house.  Realism is tough in many cases, we're dealing with people essentially, emotions, reactions, instincts of survival. Realism comes with time and the ability to look ahead at the consequences, that can be really difficult when you're reacting to someone killing the one person you loved, when the house that openly pursued you because of your track record now suddenly downplays your importance or when you're expected to do something OUT of your character's character simply because it was an order.

2- Do not badmouth something because you weren't having fun.  You having fun is your own responsibility.  You created your character, and if you aren't having fun with it, you did something wrong.  Noone else, including player and staff, forced you to play the character the way you have.

If I'm an independant, my fun is my responsibility. If I join a clan, I -expect- my leaders to -aide- in that.
Let's talk about that... there are certain characters who are made to be loners, who want to be left alone and deal fine with it. The vast majority of people come to the mud for PC to PC interaction. If all I am getting from my superiors is knock downs of every idea, undermining of authority, stupid jobs such as cleaning the barracks when I'm actually a jewelry maker then my character (and I) will eventually become soured. Who are you to tell me what I can and can not be annoyed with or angered at or vent about for that matter?  I disagree with your statement. Again, we're all human and Armageddon is very intense, it causes strong emotional reactions, badmouthing, or venting, will always be a part of that. Let it out, it's better than holding it in, I say, just be careful who you vent to, it can lead to OOC bullshit.

3- For those in leadership positions, have some patience.  The person above, basically, ditched out completely on his leadership position because change from what he perceived as stagnant was not coming quick enough.  Let me tell you, I've put up with so much boredom with a character and still stuck through it for those good times and for those that I was supposed to be a leader for.

While I agree with the statement that people in leadership positions should be patient, your level of patience may not compare to mine. Don't try and force your will on someone you have no control over. I again respectfully disagree, if you're having a bad time ICly and OOCly playing a person in a leadership position, leave it, retire it, explain yourself and step back, allow someone with more patience to give it a shot. I'd rather have a person on the other end who is enjoying themselves rather than someone who is doing it just to stick it through. There was a particular merchant who was around forever and every time I interacted with this merchant I thought "WTF is she doing still playing this character, it feels like she'd rather be taking a mamogram." Step back before your ooc boredom or dislike seep through the screen into your character and sour it for others. In my opinion, that is the responsible thing to do.

4- Give people a chance to respond.  Yes, people get upset when they have to wait too long, and I'm one of those people, but damn if I haven't seen people that don't even wait for responses and just keep typing.  I swear, half the time these people aren't even looking at the screen.  If you want to talk over someone, go ahead...but some people will not appreciate that much.

That's all dependent on how fast you type and as a five finger typer, I can tell you, we do the best we can.  Some characters -are- made to specifically talk over others but I figure after the third or fourth interaction with someone we should have a pretty good grasp of how the other person plays. If they make 4 line emotes then you should either patiently wait to respond or just keep doing your own thing. It's up to the individual.

Did you get my point?
I don't like being restricted by what other players think. I have an option to play with whom I choose and if someone doesn't capitalize I am not going to ooc to them that they should, if someone is slow in emoting, I'm not going to ooc to them that they should maybe shorten their emotes because they are taking too long, I'm not the roleplay police and shit, I'm a newbie, I've only been here three years, what the fuck do I know?  I know what I like and it's my choice, not yours. Remember that.


Edit:
If it sounds flamy, I apologize.  Heh. I keep forgetting that we can't always read calmly, especially if it's a topic that tickles a raw nerve.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I expect players to remember two things.  First, this is just a game.  It is a very fun, very well done game, but in the end, I do not think any game is worthy of the kind of emotionally charged argumentation and outbursts that occur in OOC communication (IC of course is a different matter entirely - I love seeing emotional outbursts played out in game).  Second, everyone wants to have fun with the game.  You want to have fun, and you want the people you are playing with to have fun so that they will continue to play, so that you will continue to have fun.

Therefore, when engaging in OOC communication, take the occasional step back and consider these two factors.  If what you are about to say has the sole purpose of wrecking someone else's groove, or is the result of an unhealthy level of emotional investiture in the game (and it is up to the individual to determine for his/herself what that means), consider not saying it at all, or coming back to it when you've reworded it, or rethought it.

[ashyom]

I have deleted posts that went off topics, and frankly were thinly-veiled attempts to flame - or incite flaming.
Please refrain from commenting further on these posts, and continue to discuss this topic.  I'm finding it informative and useful thus far.
Thanks,
Ashyom

[Cuusardo]

I expect players to remember that they cannot expect everyone else to entertain them all the time.  Sometimes you have to stir the pot yourself rather than waiting for someone to give you fodder or to stir it for you.

I also expect players not to let their OOC feelings affect their characters IC actions if it would not be something the character would do.  I have seen people do stupid or inappropriate things ICly because they were bored with the way things were going in game.

Lastly, I expect people to respect each other as human beings.  Just because you disagree with someone's opinions does not mean that you should follow them around and be a troll.  Flaming and arguing only makes people stop bothering to look for the actual useful information and intelligent discussion on the GDB.  It's also a great discouragement to newbies, because it could lead them to decline asking for help or stop posting all together out of fear that they will be berated and belittled for having a differing opinion.

[Sanvean]

I expect that when a post is deleted, you don't then immediately repost it. Yes, the post you cite is off-topic.  Your post was not deleted because it was offtopic, but because it was part of a series of flames. You're welcome to take this to email, but do not continue reposting the deleted post.

[jhunter]

I expect other players to stop complaining about what sort of pcs others make.( Appearance, personality...etc...) Let people play what they want and not hear any grief about it.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Desert elves should never be seen within a city for more than a moment.

Slaves conditioned from the time they were born shouldn't be fleeing their house.

I don't like being restricted by what other players think.

Long lists of what people should and shouldn't do are dangerous, -especially- if you don't like being restricted by what other players think.  I wholeheartedly agree with most of what you said, especially the parts that related to society as a whole rather than individuals (Ex: Northerners should not feel comfortable in Allanak.)  But as you shall see, I don't agree with everything that ShaLeah said.

Desert elves:  A lot of desert elf tribes center around trading.  Their members are easygoing, friendly, and quick to relate with the humans of a city-state.  There are some people that will use this as an excuse to run into a city with their phat l00t, have their hood raised while wearing a facewrap, sell all their phat l00t to an NPC, sneer at somebody, then leave to go kill more humans indiscriminately and find more phat l00t.  Quite frankly, these people are idiots.  But there is a place for a well-played, sociable desert elf trader, and that place should not be ignored.

Slaves: It is my belief that freedom is a desire that unites all humans, no matter their circumstances.  Not everybody is totally a creation of their environment, and even a glimpse of what it might be like on the other side could potentially incite a slave to rebel.  I find this especially true of muls, who are by their nature incapable of finding satisfaction in their lives.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Heh, no sorrily I'm not joking. I'll do that. I'm bored of warriors in shiny armor, assassins of the darkness and the blubbering magicians. I played a woman before and I believe it was not very manly or extra feminine. That woman was a bulky bastard. This time I want a cute little girl. A real cute one. She will be dark-skinned of course, but I wonder if she'll be OK with you people. I want your permission to play only one very very very beautiful lady. OK?

When I say I don't want to see PCs that are perfect, it doesn't mean that I don't want to see any beautiful PCs.  I've seen -plenty- of beautiful PCs that I can believe.  And that's what it comes down to.  Just make me believe it, and I'm fine with it.  Beautiful people exist on Zalanthas.  Tailors without any calluses on their fingers from pricking themselves with a needle however, stretch it.  As I said, make it believable and you can be a curvaceous wonder for all I care.

So yeah, you have my permission to play as many beautiful ladies as you want.

[spawnloser]

1- I expect people to play realistically within the game world.  Sure, go ahead and do whatever you think is fun, but follow the docs.  If you join up with a noble house and try to change it into something it is not, expect to be shot down.

I agree, but I don't think that your last statement is accurate at all. I expect a House to cultivate the changes that are brought on by their PCs. If a new Lieutenant has a better schedule, one that is more engaging, would a House really force something to stay the same? I don't think that's realistic. Expect it to be shot down if it's a bad idea.

Note the part about 'something it is not.'  That is the key phrase.  For example, if you are used to playing a 'Nakki, and then play a Tuluki, the mindset is different.  There's no public whacking of people that pissed you off.  The Noble Houses would NOT do such a thing, so don't try to get them to do it.  That is the type of thing I'm talking about.

2- Do not badmouth something because you weren't having fun.  You having fun is your own responsibility.  You created your character, and if you aren't having fun with it, you did something wrong.  Noone else, including player and staff, forced you to play the character the way you have.

If I'm an independant, my fun is my responsibility. If I join a clan, I -expect- my leaders to -aide- in that.

I'm sorry that I wasn't clear.  Yes, it is the leaders job, having taken a leadership position, to make interaction for those beneath him/her.  If you don't see a leader very often due to your play times, or whatever else and are getting bored because of no interaction, you really should talk to the IMM(s) about fixing the problem instead of giving up entirely and either retiring or doing something else equally drastic.

3- For those in leadership positions, have some patience.  The person above, basically, ditched out completely on his leadership position because change from what he perceived as stagnant was not coming quick enough.  Let me tell you, I've put up with so much boredom with a character and still stuck through it for those good times and for those that I was supposed to be a leader for.

While I agree with the statement that people in leadership positions should be patient, your level of patience may not compare to mine. Don't try and force your will on someone you have no control over. I again respectfully disagree, if you're having a bad time ICly and OOCly playing a person in a leadership position, leave it, retire it, explain yourself and step back, allow someone with more patience to give it a shot. I'd rather have a person on the other end who is enjoying themselves rather than someone who is doing it just to stick it through. There was a particular merchant who was around forever and every time I interacted with this merchant I thought "WTF is she doing still playing this character, it feels like she'd rather be taking a mamogram." Step back before your ooc boredom or dislike seep through the screen into your character and sour it for others. In my opinion, that is the responsible thing to do.

While I can agree with some of your things, I still maintain that if you are in a leadership position, you have made something of an agreement with the clan's IMM to be in that position.  It comes with some small responsibility.  For this reason, if you are having a problem with the role, talk to the IMM to try to fix the problem instead of just give up.

4- Give people a chance to respond.  Yes, people get upset when they have to wait too long, and I'm one of those people, but damn if I haven't seen people that don't even wait for responses and just keep typing.  I swear, half the time these people aren't even looking at the screen.  If you want to talk over someone, go ahead...but some people will not appreciate that much.

That's all dependent on how fast you type and as a five finger typer, I can tell you, we do the best we can.  Some characters -are- made to specifically talk over others but I figure after the third or fourth interaction with someone we should have a pretty good grasp of how the other person plays. If they make 4 line emotes then you should either patiently wait to respond or just keep doing your own thing. It's up to the individual.

Yes, it is...but to give another example, there was a particular person that was in a subordinate position to a character of mine and just talked over everything I said...not giving me much of a chance to put forth any rebuttal, and I was putting a decent amount of thought into what I was saying.  This person kept going.  I eventually, so that the conversation was a conversation and because this person was being rude by speaking over my character, had to give an order to shut up so that I could get anything out.  This person then seemed to get upset and petulant with me.  Well, that's all fine and good, as long as it was only IC, but the person got upset with me the player for that and another episode between the two of us.  It was quite frustrating.

Did you get my point?

Yes.

I don't like being restricted by what other players think. I have an option to play with whom I choose and if someone doesn't capitalize I am not going to ooc to them that they should, if someone is slow in emoting, I'm not going to ooc to them that they should maybe shorten their emotes because they are taking too long, I'm not the roleplay police and shit, I'm a newbie, I've only been here three years, what the fuck do I know?  I know what I like and it's my choice, not yours. Remember that.

Did I ever say it was my choice what anyone did?  As I've stated a couple times, I started this thread so that everyone could see what others expectations are...and make their own choices.  I'm not restricting anyone.  What I have done is list my expectations and opened the floor for others to do the same so that we can all be well-informed.

Now that we got that over with, what are your expectations, Shaleah?

Edit to remove something from Shaleah's post that I forgot to cut from quoting.

[ShaLeah]

Did you get my point?

Yes.

I know what I like and it's my choice, not yours. Remember that.

Did I ever say it was my choice what anyone did?  As I've stated a couple times, I started this thread so that everyone could see what others expectations are...and make their own choices.  I'm not restricting anyone.  What I have done is list my expectations and opened the floor for others to do the same so that we can all be well-informed.

Now that we got that over with, what are your expectations, Shaleah?

I thought you got my point?  Heh. You're not restricting anyone because you can't but by expecting them to do it in a way that makes you all warm and fuzzy inside, by posting a list of your expectations you are reminding them of the areas in which they "fall short".

One of my points was that while I (and you) have preferences on how other people roleplay, things that we find acceptible and not, it is not up to either me or you to -expect- these things from everyone else. As a player, your expectations should come with the knowledge that you -will- be disappointed time and time again because no matter how many lists we have, we're never going to all agree much less follow -other- people's expectations when we have not only our own to fulfill but that of the staff. I'd feel better about this post if it were called My Personal Preferences rather than a general, What WE the players EXPECT from other playes. Don't add me to that group, please.

Long lists of what people should and shouldn't do are dangerous, -especially- if you don't like being restricted by what other players think.

ERS, I mentioned those things not because I expect others to follow them, but because those are among my preferences, listing all of them would likely get me labelled as an elitist, heh.

It is not up to me to either dictate or expect certain behavior from my fellow Armers. To each his own and while I may sit back here in the comfort of my own home and roll my eyes every time that <blank> does <blank> a certain way, it is -my- job as a player to adapt, improvise and survive. Survival -often- means dealing with things we just can't stand as individuals. Without expecting someone else to do something a certain way life seems so much more pleasant. I won't tell someone else how to play like they owe me something and that's the feel I get from the word expect. The entire point was... just play the game -your- way and leave me to mine.

ShaLeah
-who is just trying to play the game...

[spawnloser]

Would it make you happier if I had said that 'preferences' instead of 'expectations?'  Seriously, yes, it is not a single player's place to demand things of their fellows, but by listing the preferences or expectations, we can all learn something.

[Guest post]

The directable OOC idea reminded me of this

If you're in a crowded room and you have common keyword X and you are accidently targeted by another player for a comment/emote...

Please do not, in a condescending tone, tell the player OOC "use 2.X" (and as a side note, 2.X don't frigging OOC giggle) immediately afterwards.

Give that player sometime to realize and correct the misdirect either by resending or covering it up.  

Also, take into consideration room spam, please.  Then take into consideration the singular in the second sentence of this post.  First time is likely an accident, second time less likely.  -Then- please say something.

Guest posted because that example was slightly specific.

[flurry]

My expectations of other players (and myself) are pretty simple, although I'm sure I don't live up to all of them all the time.  

Stay true to your character concept.   Play your character as realistically as you can.   Contribute in your own way to the game world.

Be courteous to other players.   Interact with other characters in a realistic manner.   Be attentive while you're doing so.   When dealing with clanmates, keep them informed if you're going to take an extended break or your playtimes are going to fall off considerably.   Be understanding that sometimes RL is going to get in the way of other players playing or being attentive.

Beyond what's in the docs, don't post details about magick or unique animal fighting tactics, to name two examples, on the GDB.   (I think I've learned as much undocumented info about magick from the GDB as from playing the game).    Have enough maturity to not post rude and snarky messages on the GDB.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I've seen -plenty- of beautiful PCs that I can believe.  And that's what it comes down to.  Just make me believe it, and I'm fine with it.  Beautiful people exist on Zalanthas.

In addition to supporting this statement, allow me to add the following thought. Beauty is very rarely flawless. In fact, allow me to give you a real-life example. Marilyn Monroe, considered one of the most beautiful persons in American Cinema, possessed a beauty mark, which in actuallity was a slight skin condition. Additionally, the famous woman from the National Geographic, with her intense eyes, is not flawless, but she is considered beautiful. Many people whom we consider beautiful have flaws. Angelina Joline's lips are literally puffy, but she is one of the most sensual creatures in our American culure.

Flawless does not equate beauty, and on Armageddon, it is simply not very realistic.

[Akaramu]

I expect players to not put me into an IC situation that is downright not enjoyable at all for RL weeks, and not even try to give me the slightest chance to have a little bit of fun without breaking IC. Its worse than being PKed, really. Its like spending weeks waiting to be able to play the game because a character doesnt get approved. Or spending RL weeks in jail because that PC templar who needs to execute you never shows up. Its not fun. At all.