Crafting

[Sir Diealot]

There might be a command..but if there's not, what about a craftcheck command you can use on something..

like, lets say you have cooking and you type 'craftcheck marshmallow' and it returns 'you could craft marshmallow into (roasted marshmallow) if you had a (stick)'

Would that take up too much ram/server space/whatever if people had craft skills too high ?

If so, what about doing it by-craft like 'cookcheck' or 'brewcheck' ?

[spawnloser]

What if that marshmellow had twenty things it could be combined with, depending on your craft skills...that is a lot of server checking, don't you think?

[Sir Diealot]

Thats why I even asked if it was feasible..

It's just hard to be a newbie, with the code AND your IC background saying you know how to make X..

And having no fecking clue what you need, even though you've been crafting roasted marshmallows /all/ your life.

Edited to Add: Maybe it could just show some very basic things..or we could have some more documentation in the crafting skills ?

Hell, I think a little email that outlines/explains the skills your char. has once you get approved would be pretty cool.. I mean, they are the skills you've been working on your entire life.

[Vettrock]

There are lots of things that can be crafted with just the one igredient, so I think that would be enough to satisify what you already know.  Unless you special app'ed your not an expert on anything.

If you really want to know how to make things which require multiple ingredients, your best bet is using the analyze command on the final product.  Granted a lot of things aren't craftable so this isn't a perfect solution, but then when you find something that isn't craftable, you can make the recipe yourself and submit it.

[Sir Diealot]

I think you've mised the point, but I freuqently get ignored anyways..So.. I guess this is a step up.

[Bestatte]

The code doesn't say "You know how" to make something. It says you "can" or maybe "could" make something. That means that you are capable of producing the item in question. It does -not- mean you know how, or that you have the proper tools to complete it successfully, or that you have the talent to succeed effortlessly and without fail.

I "know how" to read Mozart music scores, and I "know how" to play the piano. If I were to try to "craft mozart piano" I'm sure I would be capable of getting the music out on the keyboard, but no way in hell will I do it justice until I've been working on that specific piece for years.

So sure, you now have the recipe for baked gortok a la mode - but that doesn't mean you're a good cook or could ever actually manage to follow the recipe correctly and produce a gastronomical masterpiece. All you've got is the recipe. It's up to your talent, stats, skill, whatever else, to turn the recipe into something worthwhile.

[Sir Diealot]

And, yet again, you've missed the point

I know /how/ to make roasted marshmallows..

I even put it in my BG that I know how to make roasted marshmallows

The problem I'm having is that I don't know whether I need a branch..a stick.. a wire-coat-hanger.. or what.. because even though all those /would/ work..the code fucks you in the ass, and only one works..

It's a syntax problem, not a logic or skill problem.

I know -- yeah.. x item + y item = common poison tablet

ICly, I know that x item and y item are.. OOCly, because this is my first non-warrior char.. I have no fecking clue, even though IC my char. should.

That gives all you people who've played longer a METAGAME advantage over me.

[Miee (not logged in)]

I follow.

While there is a certain joy in discovering things for yourself, things that you should know as, say, a jewelry maker should be accessible.

I think the easiest way, would be to have a help file that'd list a few basic "recipes".  

The following is made up, because I've never done this.

<help jewelry_list>
Basic:
A length of cord + three feathers = A three feathered necklace.
A handful of beads + A thread = A beaded bracelet.
A few carved bone beads + a few stone beads + a length of cord = a bone and stone bead necklace.
An bone bead = a star shaped bone earring. (must hold chisel)

So now NewbieJeweler has some basic ideas to work with.  (although a glut of these items'd end up in the shops.)

Note: Analyze is good, but what about the crafters who don't have items they can go out and analyze easily?

[Sir Diealot]

Exactly what I was thinking of, thank you Miee, even if you're not logged in

[Carida]

I have to so agree with Diealot and Miee... it would be soooo nice to have at least a few reciepes to start out with. I mean when I started with a crafter I didn't have a clue how to go about doing it all and when I would ask about it IG I'd get these really vague answers... frustrating.


So.. recipes would be very very helpful.

[Agent_137]

you could also email a helper with a specific request.

[Anonymous]

I have to so agree with Diealot and Miee... it would be soooo nice to have at least a few reciepes to start out with. I mean when I started with a crafter I didn't have a clue how to go about doing it all and when I would ask about it IG I'd get these really vague answers... frustrating.


So.. recipes would be very very helpful.

For things like this the analyze skill comes in pretty handy.  I've paid people for something they had just so I could figure out how it was made.

If there was one thing I hated about Harshland's crafting system, it was that there was no sense of discovery or adventure.  They told you how to make everything.

[Sir Diealot]

note, yet again, where people constantly insinuate the recipes being only the most base-easy-to-make things..

Not like Harshlands, but at least a small helpfile per craft-skill to help get your started..

[Anonymous]

note, yet again, where people constantly insinuate the recipes being only the most base-easy-to-make things..

Not like Harshlands, but at least a small helpfile per craft-skill to help get your started..

You mean like what is already in place?

Example:


>craft shell polish into simple tortoiseshell bracer
>craft hide into pair of dark leather leggings

Example:


> craft linen into white cloth bandage
> craft bandage leaf into salve covered bandage
> craft bone salt leaf into vial of smelling salts

Example:


> craft guts into bowstring
> craft horn bowstring into slender duskhorn recurve bow

Example:


> craft sandcloth into purple sandcloth dejellabah
> craft silk into blue silk skirt

Example:


> craft leaves into a bracelet of orange leaves
> craft blossom into silvery dyed blossom

Example:


craft guts into fine mandolin strings
craft plank strings leather into shoulder-strapped mandolin
craft plank strings leather polish into finely crafted mandolin
craft bone into polished bone flute
craft bone yellow into yellow-dyed bone flute

Example:


> craft stone cord into triangular black pendant
> craft stone into blue stone ring

Example:


> craft shard into obsidian knife
> craft granite into crude stone knife
> craft gloves claws into anakore claw gloves

Etc.

While the exact ingredients are not specified, there is certainly enough to go on here for any crafter, IMHO.

[Miee]

I'll be a bitch-slapped baboon.  In all the times I'd read the help files, I never ever put that...

Damn.

OK, well nevermind.  I = DUM

[Sir Diealot]

*ahems, and quietly reconfirms Miee's statement..with a redirction to himself*

[Bestatte]

Well - back to the point then

Much like Magick, which provides you with the first few spells you need to get started, I agree that it might be time to allow crafters a short list of basic things they can make.

Problem is - northern citizens have access to things southern citizens don't, and vice versa. So the code would need to do a check on the character in question before coming up with the list.

If something like that could be worked in, then yeah this might be an awesome idea. Maybe allow all crafter-types to "magickally know how to make by virtue of their skills list" 3 generic things that -anyone- in the known world can make (if 3 such common worldwide things exist) plus 1 or 2 area-specific things.

[spawnloser]

Meh.  I'm fine with it the way it is.

Personally, if you don't know how to craft an item using a particular skill, don't put in your background that you know how.  Use generics.  Figure it out.

[Miee]

Well - back to the point then

Much like Magick, which provides you with the first few spells you need to get started, I agree that it might be time to allow crafters a short list of basic things they can make.

Problem is - northern citizens have access to things southern citizens don't, and vice versa. So the code would need to do a check on the character in question before coming up with the list.

If something like that could be worked in, then yeah this might be an awesome idea. Maybe allow all crafter-types to "magickally know how to make by virtue of their skills list" 3 generic things that -anyone- in the known world can make (if 3 such common worldwide things exist) plus 1 or 2 area-specific things.

Hey!  I think that's a bit too similar to my now-dumb idea!  Blah-blah-blah!  Flame on!

I tossed out the <help> idea, as it would be easier to limit the access of who had it and there wouldn't necessarily be a "This is on a webpage, therefore it -must- be common knowledge."

I -still- think there should be a "common crafter knowledge" list, but I don't want to throw out any more ideas because I = DUM.



:wink:

[Sir Diealot]

Meh.  I'm fine with it the way it is.

Personally, if you don't know how to craft an item using a particular skill, don't put in your background that you know how.  Use generics.  Figure it out.

But that's an artificial OOC limitation on characters..

Which is letting OOC interfere with IC.. Which is powergaming.

[Anonymous]

But that's an artificial OOC limitation on characters..

Which is letting OOC interfere with IC.. Which is powergaming.

I don't follow this logic at all.  If you, as a player, don't know something, you are setting yourself up for dissappointment if you put in your background that you do know it.  This has nothing to do with anyone needing to feel superior, or being an RP nazi, or looking down their nose at you.  This game is about roleplay and discovery, and honestly if I sat down and listed all the crafting recipes I knew right now I'd feel like I was robbing players of that discovery.

What is it about the examples in the helpfiles that don't meet your criteria?

[Carida]

I think... what he's simply trying to say (Diealot) Is that, your character when you start it as a crafter has been working at this craft for years. Now we all start at a low level when we make a character we all know this, but still. What person you know, who was taught to let's say.. to knit didn't know at least three or four basic things you could make, what kind of tools you need for these four or three basic things and what kind of raw materials to make them. Of course after sitting about reading those lovely books you learn about all kinds of different stuff you could make other then the booties, blanket, hat and mittens you were taught by grannie.

And... if you lived in this place all your life and you've always been a knitter, it would be logical to assume that you know where the knitting store is and what tools you need to use for your knitting.

Am I being clear like? I am sleepy.... might have rambled.

[spawnloser]

Sir Diealot,
From this thread and the other one on crafting, you seem to have this idea that things should be handed to you out of character.  That is powergaming.  Saying, "Hey, my character knows how to do this!  Tell me how!" is powergaming.  Saying, "I don't know how to do it, so I won't have my character know how," is not powergaming.  Yes, it is allowing an OOC thing to affect IC, but when playing tabletop, if you don't understand how magic works in the game, you jump in and figure it out...or you don't play a spellcaster.  It is that simple.

Seriously, play the game and find out instead of buying the walkthrough.

[Sir Diealot]

I don't think I asked for a full list..just a little bit of general help..

Note how, right after Miee, when I learned that the helpfiles gave a vague, general help, I apologized..

It's not buying the walkthrough, it's asking whether to use WADS or the direction keys...Except there's a /ton/ more configurations than just 2, and going through them all leaves your char. sitting there stock-still. Which, in... lets take Quake for an example.. you would die.  It's playability..

Now, as I've already apologized, been told what I did wrong, and got pointed to some help..What the fuck is the point of your post ?

[spawnloser]

Okay, to explain...

There are so many things out there, getting a little bit of help is pointless.  You'll find something right away anyway.  The rest is the more complicated things that you should have to experiment for.  Go with it the way it is, seriously.  Have fun exploring and figuring it out for yourself.

Getting the information handed to you is no different than using discoveries from previous characters...but it is different than finding out yourself.  Go do it.

[Angela Christine]

As a general rule of thumb when I try a new guild I set up my background so that my character is young and/or inexperienced.  That would also apply to new subguilds too, on occasions when I plan for the subguild to be an important part in the character's life.  


Example:  

No matter what guild you choose, you suck at first.  A newbie ranger isn't a great hunter, and will have real problems surviving alone in the wilds.  Those limitations will be magnified if it is -also- the player's first time trying to play a ranger.  It would be foolish for a newbie ranger (played by someone who had never played a ranger before) to buy a bow, a kank, a skin of water, and whatever else he can manage with his newbie money, and then head out the gates alone to try his luck hunting.  It would be foolish even for a player who'd played dozens of rangers before, though hopefully and experienced ranger-player would know better.   He will probably fail, and by fail I mean get eaten by something with big teeth.  It would make more sense for him to join a clan, apprentice himself to a more experienced hunter, or at least get a few friends to share the load.  

Later he trys another ranger, and since the player has knowledge about hunting and foraging, he makes his characater a mature, experienced hunter this time.  He knows how long it will take before he is able to forage well enough that food won't be a concern, so he hoards his newbie money more carefully.  Perhaps he puts off buying the bow and arrows for now, because archery is a very expensive skill to train (that goes double in the south) so he wisely decides to wait until he has an income from other activties before trying his hand at archery.  How does he reconcile his delayed archery with his background of being an experienced hunter?  Easy.  Bows are expensive, he doesn't have a bow because his was lost, broken, stolen (damned elves) or pawned, and he didn't have the money to replace it right away.  Losing a bow isn't a major event, there is no need to include it in your background.  How does he explain his lousy aim when he eventually buys the "replacement" bow?  Easy.  He is out of practice from not using a bow for a while.  

Does he have an advantage of first-time rangers?   Sure, a little.  Not as much as he'd have on a non-permadeath mud, where he'd be a 68th level ranger and the new guy would be a 1st level ranger, but still a little advantage.  That is inevitable unless long-time characters are willing to under go voluntary brain damage to prevent carry over.  So the experienced player can put in his background that his new character has a lifetime of experience hunting the Grey Forest, and he has some chance of backing it up.  An inexperienced player can claim that his new character has a lifetime of experience hunting in the Grey Forest too, but what he shouldn't do is ask for a map of the Grey forest, on account of his Character's previous knowledge.  

I'm sure all that could be applyed to tailors too, except that tailors don't usually get eatten by things with big teeth while practicing their proffession.  


AC

[Geekfreak]

This topic looks oddly familliar. I think it has been posted over three times in the past. This would be the easy way out I think. You should learn from experience which tools to use with what. Try different combos and keep mental notes to yourself.

[Miee]

Miee is currently using a spreadsheet for this purpose.  It's a good idea.