Sub-class confusion...

[ashjpd]

Hey,
I was just wondering if it was possible for the staff to tell us what skills and stuff the subclasses/guilds get. I sometimes end up messing up my character's ability to do stuff by not knowing this.

[SpyGuy]

Read the descriptions on both carefully from the helpfiles, you can pretty much base it from that.  Most give the info you need in no uncertain terms.

I also hate subclasses personally, if only because I -never- know what to pick.  But thats just me.

[Ghost]

I believe nobody is supposed to tell you what skills your subclass gets, and branches.  You should check the helpfiles and read the descriptions of the subclasses

[Thad]

But We can say that subclass skills do not branch.

[spawnloser]

But We can say that subclass skills do not branch.

Correct.  Also, some subclasses start with a higher skill rating than a primary class and some subclasses have different maximum skill ratings (either for better or worse, but as I understand it, you get the better of the two maximums between class/subclass).

[Bestatte]

One problem with not knowing the exact skills - this example actually happened to me.

I created a character at some point. Her primary class was fine, I had a good idea of what it included and picked it based on her general background and goals. I wanted a subclass that would make sense for her background, and that meant in this case - she would have the haggle skill. I figured one of the crafts would come with haggle - if you are making stuff, it stands to reason you're buying materials and selling the stuff you make, so eventually you'd be damned good at negotiating a deal, right?

WRONG

The subclass I picked specified

They are generally shrewd merchants

That's right from the help file. And yet - it didn't come with haggle, and I picked the subclass specifically because this snippet implied pretty clearly to me that it did.

If my character was gonna be such a shrewd merchant, how come she couldn't get more than 1 sid off the price of materials to make her goods? Why couldn't she manage to get a merchant NPC to pay more than a single sid higher than the absolute minimum price the merchant would normally be paying to anyone else?

That doesn't sound very shrewd to me. And it was very disappointing to learn that the class I picked -because- of the haggle skill - didn't come with the haggle skill.

[Angela Christine]

Being a shrewd merchant could also mean the value skill or the analyze skill.  If you know what something is really worth, then you are shrewd enough to know if you are getting screwed.  The analyze skill is also helpful for shrewd merchants that want to know what things are made of.  Sure, now days everyone gets the analyze skill, but I remember when only Merchants and one or two subclasses could analyze.


I have an even better example!  I had this cool idea for a character that lived in, and under, the 'rinth.  What resource is abundant in that area?  Rats!  I wanted to make a character who made her living ratcrafting.  Unfortunately ratcrafting isn't a skill, so I thought I'd go with leatherworking and hope for the best, knowing that I might have to write up and submit many items made from grungy rat hides.  Rat hide belt, rat hide shoes, rat hat, rat onna stick, rat stew . . . the possibilities are endless.  I took a "sneaky" guild rather than a warrior or ranger, because moving around underground often requires climbing, and I figured you don't have to be a very good fighter to kill rats.  The only way to get leatherworking was by taking a armorer, so I went with that even though I had no intention of making armor.  *poof!*  I appear in the world, do my shopping, and then look at my skills.   My character did not have the skinning skill!  How am I to get rat skins without the skinning skill?  Hire a ranger to follow me around the sewers?  I think not.  Now the tricky part about this was that at the time the subguild description said that they were adept at "collecting and processing" a variety of materials for making into armor.  I naturally assumed that collecting and processing leather would involve skinning.  I emailed the mud to see if it was a bug or something, and they said that it wasn't a bug but that the description was a little misleading, so they changed it.  Even with the skinning skill you can occasionally get lucky, but you don't get any better at it without the skill, so I had to masacre a lot of rats to get a few skins.    Due to an unrealated mishap she didn't live long enough to become become the known world's greatest ratcrafter, and corner the market on rat-related goods.

The point of my tale of woe?  If you think that a subclass description is misleading, then write into the mud and explain what you think is wrong, and why.  If they agree with you, they may change it.  Maybe not the way you want it changed, but changed enough that no one else will make the same mistake in the future.  Then you can feel warm and fuzzy about the future generations of players you have helped.  


AC

[Callisto]

The sub-guild descriptions are pretty awful.

I don't see the problem with people knowing what skills they're going to get with the non-karma guilds and sub-guilds. It isn't like there is some huge advantage that throws the balance off - if anything, it gives unfair advantages to those of us with a lot more experience as players, because we're past the trial-and-error treadmill.

Karma options should be protected to some degree, since some of that - but not near as much as you might think - could have an impact on the game. Stock options? I don't see why a listing of skills for options everyone has access to would be a problem.

It isn't like that information isn't readily available in IRC, e-mail or private messages if someone wants to know. I just fail to see why it needs to be this big secret, really.

[ashjpd]

I totally agree with Callisto, I just didn't know how to say it, his exact words.

[Bestatte]

If you know what something is really worth (meaning, you're good with the value skill) then you should be capable of explaining to the NPC that you know it's worth more than he's offering. And maybe if he refuses to budge, go to someone more reasonable. But without even a low-ranking haggle skill, he will -always- refuse to budge, he won't even attempt to negotiate with you. If you're such a shrewd merchant that the docs actually point it out -in addition- to pointing out that you -also- have a knack for figuring out the value of things...

Then that NPC should be willing to at least entertain offers rather than set the price and not budge from it.

[flurry]

I interpret that sentence differently - I thought the second half of the sentence (that comes after the part you quoted) is clarifying the first part, not adding to it.

I do agree it sucks to choose a subguild for a skill that it doesn't have.  (For this example, I think there are other choices that seem likely to have that skill.)

I agree with Callisto that simply stating which skills go with which subguilds wouldn't do much (or maybe any) harm.   I'm not sure how likely that is to happen, though.  It would be just as good, IMHO, if people pointed out misleading descriptions to the mud to possibly be modified.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I think the immortals said when they took the skill lists away, long long ago, RP went up.

What can I say, I like RP.

[Vettrock]

I think you can tell what skills you get from almost all of the subguild descriptions, and the one that you mention could probably be modified slightly, that said the full sentace you are quoteing is:

They are generally shrew merchants, capable of figuring out the value and composition of items.

To me this implies two skills other than haggle.

If you don't like the subguild descriptions, do what I did volenteer to write better ones.  I wrote about half of the current ones (16 out of the 24)

And in case you are wondering the one you are refering to was not written by me, but I think you can figuire out what skills you get with every sub-guild if you read it carefully.

[X-D]

You know, I've never had much of a problem getting my subguild changed if it turned out to be unfitting for the char, as long as it is asked for very early in his life.

[Bestatte]

Well my RP is non-existent when I try to sell something from an NPC - because I know there's absolutely no way in hell he's gonna negotiate with me. I did try - several times. But getting a 1-sid discount on an object that costs 300 sids is a slap in the face so I no longer waste my time trying.

I know this thing is worth 200 sids. I know that he is asking 300 sids. I know that if I was to buy it from a PC, I'd be able to negotiate a deal lower than 300, and probably a bit higher than 200. I also know that there's no one around, no PC, who has this thing or can make this thing.

I try to tell the NPC - dood - you know, I know, everyone and their brother knows, this thing ain't worth what you're asking. So how about giving me a deal, where you'll profit and I'll get my money's worth? His answer: Silence.

If I know I'm gonna be met with silence every single time, or a merchant who starts getting pissed because I dare to even try to negotiate, why bother even trying? I already know the end result. I'll either pay what he asks, or get kicked out for trying to get a better deal.

So much for my shrewd merchant who knows the value of things. What good is knowing the value of things if you can't use that knowledge when you try to negotiate with an NPC merchant?

ESPECIALLY since when you try to do the same with a PC who -does- have the haggle skill, you know that he can get a better deal at the NPC than he can from you - because the NPC is paying less than you are for the raw materials and can/will therefore charge less to cover the costs.

I have to pay more than the NPC to buy things I need to craft things I make, so therefore I have to charge more to the PC customer than he would pay to the NPC that sells the same thing. Pretty pointless if you ask me.

I'm just whining though - I'm still making more than I need. It just doesn't seem even remotely realistic, even in a fantasy setting, for a PC who is damned good at knowing the value of things, to not be able to apply that knowledge when negotiating deals with shopkeepers.

[Carnage]

Karma options should be protected to some degree, since some of that - but not near as much as you might think - could have an impact on the game. Stock options? I don't see why a listing of skills for options everyone has access to would be a problem.

Karma options should be completely protected. Certain abilities, if known, can completely cripple their usage. Other than that, I agree completely with Vettrock said. The descriptions are obvious.

But without even a low-ranking haggle skill, he will -always- refuse to budge, he won't even attempt to negotiate with you.

That's not true. My best estimate on how the code works is percentage based. So for that piece of bone that goes for two sid, you're not going to be able to negotiate a single sid off. That'd be 50% off. Second, just because you can make something doesn't mean you know how to haggle. Should a hardware technician know how to haggle down prices just because he works with the parts? And third, knowing the price of something and being able to haggle down the price are two different things. Value is the type of thing where you remember the price of an item, or can make an estimate based on comparison to other prices you know. Haggle is knowing the psychology of who you're bargaining with and trying to get them to lower the price.

[spawnloser]

Bestatte,
The ability to get a better deal then the asked price is the 'haggle' skill.  You can roleplay it all you want with other PCs, but when dealing with NPCs, you MUST use the skill to accurately represent your PCs ability to deal with those that are just as capable.  Do you want NPCs to be able to use their 'haggle' skill on you?  If they do, I guarantee, they will get even more money out of you or give you less money when you sell something to them.

[Vettrock]

I would have to agree with Spawnloser here.  I can look up the blue book value of a vehicle on the internet, but while this may help me with the price when I'm talking with the used car salesman, unless I can convince his that I'm not willing or pay more than X, and that paying X is the best deal for both of us, its not going to help me as much as someone who may not know the exact blue book value but know how to haggle is still going to get a better deal.

[Bestatte]

I guess what I"m suggesting is that everyone come with some measure of the haggle skill, with other people getting more than others.

For instance - someone who is trying to deal with an elf NPC - who doesn't know Allundean, might not get anything better than the price being offered. A tribal human might not do as well as a city human when dealing with a city-based NPC merchant. A half-giant might not get more than a sid or two better, because half-giants are just plain stupid

A merchant-class might do the absolute best, because he's a pro at wheeling and dealing. But ain't nobody knows better than a warrior who's maxed out in slashing weapons, whether or not a particular slashing weapon is worth the asking price - so maybe he'd be a better haggler for those particular items than someone else - and he'd do a piss-poor job at trying to get a good deal on a silk nightie for his girlfriend. A leathercrafter would certainly be able to point out flaws in the strip of raw leather being offered by the NPC merchant and remind the NPC that his livelihood depends on crafters getting fair deals.

In short, I think everyone should have -some- amount of built-in haggle, and that the skill should be reworked to take into consideration who is trying to haggle with whom, and over what type of object.

If my character was gonna be such a shrewd merchant, how come she couldn't get more than 1 sid off the price of materials to make her goods? Why couldn't she manage to get a merchant NPC to pay more than a single sid higher than the absolute minimum price the merchant would normally be paying to anyone else?

That doesn't sound very shrewd to me. And it was very disappointing to learn that the class I picked -because- of the haggle skill - didn't come with the haggle skill.

I don't know exactly how the haggle skill works, but I know that if you trade regularly, even if your class or subclass has no mention of any haggling ability you can get better. Maybe I was just imagining this but after a real long time it seemed to me I was actually a half-decent haggler, code-wise.

[Vettrock]

You do have some skill in haggling.  I've managed to get 1 or 2 sid off of some items without the haggle skill.  Although 95% of the time your not gonna get anything cheaper than the asking price.

If it was easy to code, I would agree that the haggling for an item which you were an expert crafter in should be somewhat easier than haggling for a item that you don't have a clue about.  However, I have to fall back on my previous point that knowing the value of something does not alway mean you are the best haggler.  However I think its fine the way it is.  and not worth the effort in changing it.  If you want to haggle to get a few more sid, pick one of the sub-guilds that gets haggle, as there are several.  I haven't ever played a merchant myself (as the main guild), but If I am going to be doing a bit a buying and selling, I pick one of the sub-guilds that gets the haggle skill.

[Callisto]

What can I say, I like RP.

So do I.

This is a MUD and we do count on skills - I just fail to see how making someone guess when attempting to tailor skills to a concept is going to enhance the role-play.

[Delirium]

I almost always manage to haggle down NPCs with my characters, whether or not they actually have the skill. Obviously, if they have the skill, I can get a much better deal.. but haggle isn't one of those 'you will always fail if you don't have it on your skills list' things.

[Ix Machina]

I shouldn't even have to post this, but please, if you find something in the documentation of the game that does not correlate to gameplay, then email mud@ginka.armageddon.org with the instance in the helpfile and how it does not correlate.

An example would be:

Subguild: Fisherman

Fishermen are notoriously skilled at being able to catch great white sharks in the silt sea, and wrestle them into complacency with the majestic power of their beefy arms, as well as craft the equipment they need to catch other fish.

But when you pick fisherman because you think "COOL! I get to craft Lures of Fireball +6. Yarr! Wait til my mateys get a load of this!" and you have shark wrestling and fishingpole carving on your list but lure crafting isn't there, then posting about it is probably not going to help. Email us, the administrators, and you can be sure that it will most likely get fixed.

I've just noticed an odd and irritating habit of people coming to the GDB to complain about things that would be better served emailing the mud about or writing a bug/typo report about in game.

Perhaps it's my perspective, but it's the equivalent of coming onto the board to post "So I found 6 typos in the gear I'm wearing, also, tomatoes don't grow in Zalanthas, but there's a dish in the Puking Hovel tavern that has tomatoes in it, and also, I hate people who abuse being a thief by twinking out and stealing my 130 stone halberd of Coolness +1."

Please... if only for the sanity of me, if NO ONE else, please think about what you're posting, who it's going to help, and what you expect to have happen from posting your gripe/complaint/fingerpointing/declaration of abuse and whether it would be better served by emailing the mud account for a clarification or as a heads up to a situation.

Thank you.

[Bestatte]

Actually on March 5 I did e-mail mud, and the clan IMM about this. The clan IMM replied to me with his opinion on the matter, but mud never responded at all. If I had gotten a response from MUD I wouldn't have posted here, because it would have already been addressed.