Allanak and Tuluk

[Petra]

Do you think Tuluk would/should possess certain technological advancements over Allanak?  In Allanak, if a noble or wealthy commoner were to suffer from an ear infection nothing is to stop him or her from hiring a Vivadu elementalist from healing their ailment.  And before you throw the fear of magicker argument out there, consider that the elementalists are allowed to live in Allanak and are used for contract by many people.  Yes they are feared, but unlike Tuluk where they are vehemently outlawed, they are still used and their powers taken advantage of.  The point is, the poor who have ear infections simply have to put up with it.  The rich, well, why bother with the skills of medicine that physicians can provide when magick can cure the problem?  This might lead to a certain laziness.  Whereas in Tuluk, even the richest noble is probably not going to employ the use of magick to heal their ear infection.  So they have to resort to more "natural" methods.

You apply this philosophy to more than simply ear infections and you might find the entire system is setup differently between the two city-states.  What about curing cataracts?  This isn't Medieval Europe.  Just because there is no electricity does not mean someone (or some nation) could not learn to medically remove cataracts from the eye.  Chances are this sort of knowledge would be far more prevalent in Tuluk, where they do not use magick (with the exception of outlaws) than in Allanak where enough money and a Vivaduan can solve the problem (assuming Vivaduans can actually cure cataracts -- let's say for the sake of argument here that they can).

The entire medical profession could be far more advanced in Tuluk than Allanak.  That's not to say everyone and anyone would use magick in Allanak, but the mere fact that they can would probably offer a general laziness to any technological advancements.

And you could go on to apply this argument to other aspects of the city's infrastructure.  Ancient Egypt, for example, actually had fire departments.  A far cry from the fire departments of today, of course, but these operations were a necessity nonetheless in a dry climate.  What's to stop those vast wooden walls in Tuluk from setting ablaze, and how quickly could they be put out without using magick?  You have to waste so much precious water!  So they either suffer vast weaknesses as a city-state, or have learned to compensate by advancing their skill in different fields.

Well anyway, it's just a thought.

[SailorMars]

I see your point, but I think the factor missing is that even though magickers are used in Allanak, and allowed to exist in Allanak, they are still baby eaters. Just because a noble could afford a healer, doesn't even remotely mean they would consider having a filthy, untrustworthy, curse-spewing, baby eating magicker touch them, or their children.

My examples are extreme, but probably represent all but the tiniest fraction of 1% that deal with- and use- magickers. To expand on that thought, we deal PC to PC, in general. PCs play magickers. PCs get hired. There's probably many virtual (NPC) magickers that nobody wants anything to do with, and easily thousands of virtual Allanaki citizens (noble and common) that wouldn't let a magicker touch them with a ten foot pole.

From that angle, I don't think medical technology would have advanced in any one place over another to make up for a magicker deficit.

[SpyGuy]

Also look at society in general.  By my understanding it wasnt all that long ago that Tuluk did allow some magickers, back before the destruction.  So the time for a split is somewhat short, combined with factors like how Tuluk was destroyed and enslaved for a vast period and that the quality of life there and organization were very low...nah I'm doubting they're that far ahead.  Probably the more important factor is native wildlife and the like, what you can use to make what.

Also remember these cities arent that far apart and have frequent contact through the merchant houses.  More likely than not if Tuluki commoners had a method you'd find someone stealing it and bringing it to 'nak, and the other way around.  Only if something is kept a major secret will it not transfer from one city to another in a few years time.

[Petra]

You both make interesting points.  I hadn't considered a lot of that.

Anyway, it was just some food for thought.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I'll also add that even if Tuluk has a need for technology, it still doesn't have a society set up to create technology.  Even if somebody learned something, they couldn't write it down.  All physicians would be commoners, since nobles wouldn't have any desire to perform such a menial and filthy task.  Even if some faction managed to record knowledge, it wouldn't be shared with the public.

[Gilvar]

A hard thing for alot of people to get over is there is no metal. None in a sense of availability to work things. Even the way back bronze age (talking B.C here) had a metal, Zalanthas doesn't. Bone, wood, and stone can only go so far.

It already goes too far as it is. Like cutting hard stone with a softer stone? doesn't make sense, but its Zalanthas, things like that may make sense, but its still not on a scale that would allow for alot of the technology we have today.

Even simple things like nails are not existant in the extent we know today. Sure slivers of bone may work, but not hardly enough. Im surpised we even have wagons, I have no idea how they'd make that work.

Anyways, I'd say technological breakthroughs are pretty far from reaching Zalanthas, small things.... maybe.

[Agent_137]

wish I really really need a copper vein. Preferably right here in front of me.

*discovers a copper vein on the zalanthian surface*

HOLY KANK.

------


that's the next tech leap.

[Petra]

By technological advancements I mean things which don't require an abundance of metal.  Obviously not machine guns and steam rollers, etc.  But, in ancient Rome, for example, people actually could remove cataracts using sharp tools -- some of these could be used with non-metal substances.  I shouldn't have used the word technology because I think the tendancy for most of you is to associate modern or sci-fi with that word.  I'm talking ropes and pulleys, surgical proceedures not unlike those practiced by ancient cultures, indoor (or outdoor) plumbing, certain gear-constructed mechanisms -- those sorts of things.

I will say, however, I think that some of the non-metal items in game are as good a substitute as metal (such as bone), whereas the real life version is not, and here's why.  What's to say the nature of bone is the same as real life bone?  There are no mekillots in the real world, so who's to say mekillot bones are not so unbelievably sturdy, that you can make nails out of them; nails just as sturdy as any metal nail.  It certainly would explain how things like wagons exist.  Or the walls of Tuluk.  Maybe agafari wood (or whatever) when it is grown in the soil of the Northlands containts some sort of natural fire-retardant properties.  And this is why no one has managed to successfully burn the city into a cinder (I mean how the hell else has it managed to go unburned?).  I've seen bone rapiers in game, now you can't tell me there is any bone in real life you could make a rapier from and expect it not to snap within the first few duels with.  You really have to assume the bone being used is of a substance sturdy enough to withstand the repeated beating of a swordfight.  This is fantasy after all.  

So I really think many of the substances of the game world are supposed to be equivalent to some metal items (at least in terms of durability), otherwise the game would be more of a mad-maxish environment where there aren't even city-states and technology is no more advanced than Neanderthal cavemen.

[X-D]

At one time, here on earth, and even today, many rather amazing machines were mae with little or no metal, Wood can be an amazing thing, add in stone, incredibly durable bones to be found on zalanthas, teeth, leather, chitin(something we don't have to build with on earth) vines, stone....Heh, who needs metal.

Windmills were made of wood and leather and stone, same for watermills, little if any metal in the construction, wagons ahve been made without the use of metal, as a matter of fact, full wood construction is often more durable then nails and screws.

tongue and groove, dovetail, pegs, leather bindings, rawhide bindings (if you want something REALLY tight, wet rawhide, lash together, let dry, it shrinks.

All of your first war machines were made of wood/leather/rope NONE of them need metal. And most of them could be built onsite in a matter of hours. In some cases under an hour, and taken apart for transport even quicker. There is no need for metal on wagons, though axles and wheels would need to be replaced more often without it. The Trebuchet is a lever and a counterweight, think of it as a giant sling powered by gravity.

I always find it amazing the number of people that don't know these things, who think metal has to be used. Metal on earth is rather abundant and easy to make and use, that is why it is used.

The north uses no magick, they have an abundant amount of resources needed to build machines of many types, they SHOULD have a higher technolagy level...Hell, since lenses are understood on zalanthas, with the huge amount of sunlight, I'm rather suprised nobody has figured out some kind of giant solar sun laser:)

[Gesht]

- - I have to disagree.  In my opinion (not a staff position), Tuluk should not be more technologically advanced than Allanak.  They should have different technologies, but nothing that is a giant leap over Allanak. Keep in mind that the main drive for technology is necessity.  Tuluki have an easier life than anyone in the world.  They don't have to farm for resources, nor travel far to get them.

- - Tuluki have it easier than the rest of the world, so their need is not as great. They're artists, not inventors. Allanak is in the middle of the desert, reminded death is near on a regular basis. Their need is great. However, that also means they don't have a lot of resources to waste, so invention would be set back by that. I think it balances out.

- - I can see Tuluk having a slightly greater need for medical technology than Allanak, due to a lack of magick cures.  However, at the same time, a good diet and more relaxed attitude lead to better health. In either case, in an environment like Zalanthas, you won't see technical advances unless their is an obvious means to profit greatly from it.

- - Those are my feelings; take them with a grain of salt.  I really did like your approach to the situation.

[jhunter]

They're artists, not inventors.

I would think that inventors are a type of artist and that invention would be considered an artform by Tuluki.

*shrugs*

[Gesht]

- - Invention an art?  Maybe.  There is a difference between artists and craftsmen, though.  In any case, looking at history, major technological advancements occur most often when there is a pressing need to make them.  Yes, Tuluk and Allanak have inventors.  My point is neither side should be leaps and bounds ahead of the other.

[jhunter]

So, why wouldn't...considering Tuluki society, alot of crafters, inventors and such (even thieves and assassins) consider what they do an "art"?

Don't those that consider what they do an art, generally put everything they have into it and into doing it better than the rest?

I would think that it's possible, because of the way Tuluki generally are about what they do, that they might exceed Allanak as far as technology goes.

Yes, necessity is usually why things are invented. But there have been many that were done, just to see if they could do it (or by accident), not that there was a need for it.

[amoeba]

Gilvar wrote:

Im surpised we even have wagons, I have no idea how they'd make that work.

X-D wrote:

Windmills were made of wood and leather and stone, same for watermills, little if any metal in the construction, wagons ahve been made without the use of metal, as a matter of fact, full wood construction is often more durable then nails and screws

Actually there are a lot examples of this.  I remember growing up in New Mexico about a tale of a very elaborate starircase in a church in Santa Fe that was built without nails or glue.  One of the coolest medevel all wooden war machines was the trebuchet.   http://members.iinet.net.au/~rmine/gctrebs.html.  These siege machines were the terror of the day.  Just think of how cool it would be to have one during the HRPT.  Not having metal doesen't bother me.  In fact nail, staples and the like have actaully made the quality of many goods to go down because people get cheap and lazy.  Why do a dovetail joint when you can just nail two planks together?

[Pungee]

- - I have to disagree.  In my opinion (not a staff position), Tuluk should not be more technologically advanced than Allanak.  They should have different technologies, but nothing that is a giant leap over Allanak. Keep in mind that the main drive for technology is necessity.  Tuluki have an easier life than anyone in the world.  They don't have to farm for resources, nor travel far to get them.

- - Tuluki have it easier than the rest of the world, so their need is not as great. They're artists, not inventors. Allanak is in the middle of the desert, reminded death is near on a regular basis. Their need is great. However, that also means they don't have a lot of resources to waste, so invention would be set back by that. I think it balances out.

As I recall Athens wasn't in a terribly need based area of land, obviously things weren't as easy as going to the local Supermarket for them but the average Athenian had little to worry about in the way of a murderous environment. Yet, some of the greatest inventors in the history of the ancient world came from Athens/Greece which I imagine could be comparitive to the area in which Tuluk resides. Difficult to live in, but not as barren as where Allanak is by any means. Heck, greeks even invented the first 'computer' as I recall. And the term computer is used very loosely here, essentially it was a wooden, pegged pole with ropes tied in certain ways that when released would slowly wind down and do certain things as the bits of rope left certain pegs (very primative programming). So, I could see Tuluk as having both Higher Art (Already done) and Higher Tech.

[Agent_137]

Actually there are a lot examples of this. I remember growing up in New Mexico about a tale of a very elaborate starircase in a church in Santa Fe that was built without nails or glue.

True true, but also recall that no one knows how he did it, nor can they replicate it. And many people think it was a miracle.

I dunno about the miracle thing, though.  Maybe he was just uber-l33t?

[Twilight]

I can't remember which tribe it was, but there was a tribe pre-Conquest in Central/South America that did brain surgery with obsidian tools.

[Quirk]

I see your point, but I think the factor missing is that even though magickers are used in Allanak, and allowed to exist in Allanak, they are still baby eaters. Just because a noble could afford a healer, doesn't even remotely mean they would consider having a filthy, untrustworthy, curse-spewing, baby eating magicker touch them, or their children.

My examples are extreme, but probably represent all but the tiniest fraction of 1% that deal with- and use- magickers.

I'm sorry, but I have to strongly disagree. People have for too long been applying the standards of Tuluk to Allanak, IMO.

Magickers are not as feared in 'Nak as in Tuluk. It's the way it is. People are more or less used to seeing gemmers, and the fear for the wielders of magick is simply not going to reach the same heights as it is in places where magick is virtually unknown. There's a spectrum of reactions to magick from the reverence of tribes for their shamans to the blind hatred of the Northerners, and the range of reactions in 'Nak lies somewhere in the middle of that range.

I feel that probably the majority of 'Nak citizens would rather accept a magicker's healing than face almost certain death from poison or severe internal injuries. That a goodly number of people go to magickers for help in cases far less severe than the direct threat of death is evident from the results of the water tax, with VNPC and NPC Vivaduans profiting sufficiently from an increased VNPC trade to make a steady business out of it. In the case of the highly educated noble classes, I think it would likely be the exceptional noble rather than the typical one who would refuse magickal healing. Certainly the 1% figure seems extremely, unrealistically low to me.

There is a dire need for a certain subtlety in characters' views of magick and an acceptance that cultural differences exist. "Magick is bad, I don't know how they let the freaks live, I'd never go to them" is a fine mindset for some of the 'Nakki populace to have, but quite evidently it is not the only nor necessarily the predominant view. It would be quite in place for almost all Northerners to believe such, but the North and South are different and it is important that they are played as such in game.

Quirk

[naatok]

Although it is true that necessity is the mother of invention, most of the esoteric inventions of history had almost zero practical applications during the time-period they were made (before the 19th Century AD that is...after that, nearly all inventions are weird science).

Leonardo DaVinci and his oddities are an example.  The man came up with ideas for flying machines in the 1500s....ideas that found their way into many of the component designs, or structural designs of such modern inventions as helicopters.  Recently, it was also shown that he came up with colored polymers made from the hooves of bovines instead of plastics.  He was, after all, an artist as well as philosopher.

Art and science are close siblings.

[SailorMars]

There's a spectrum of reactions to magick from the reverence of tribes for their shamans to the blind hatred of the Northerners, and the range of reactions in 'Nak lies somewhere in the middle of that range.

Is there anything in the documentation to back this up (the part about Allanak)? If so, please point me to it. I was under the impression that while magickers are seen around Allanak, it was only because Tek (and his Templar posse) allowed their existance that they were accepted at all. While nobles might hire the occasional magicker, that was exceptional in the big picture, meaning most of the NPC population was not doing this.

If Allanak is supposed to be the middle road, it's certainly going to change how my characters react in that city.

[marko]

Magickers are not as feared in 'Nak as in Tuluk. It's the way it is. People are more or less used to seeing gemmers, and the fear for the wielders of magick is simply not going to reach the same heights as it is in places where magick is virtually unknown. There's a spectrum of reactions to magick from the reverence of tribes for their shamans to the blind hatred of the Northerners, and the range of reactions in 'Nak lies somewhere in the middle of that range.

I agree with your spectrum but I feel that you've placed Allanak to low in it.  The difference is simple - Tuluk _hates_ magick, Allanak _fears_ magick.  That's the difference right there.  

In the case of the highly educated noble classes, I think it would likely be the exceptional noble rather than the typical one who would refuse magickal healing. Certainly the 1% figure seems extremely, unrealistically low to me.

I would leave that up to the Nobles themselves.  I've seen many many many nobles refuse magickal healing.  Why?  Because they fear it or do not trust the caster or had a bad experience or... Let them come to their own conclusions and reactions.

There is a dire need for a certain subtlety in characters' views of magick and an acceptance that cultural differences exist. "Magick is bad, I don't know how they let the freaks live, I'd never go to them" is a fine mindset for some of the 'Nakki populace to have, but quite evidently it is not the only nor necessarily the predominant view.

I believe that is exactly the point of view of the majority of the people in Allanak.  They fear magick.  While it is around - they still fear it.

It would be quite in place for almost all Northerners to believe such, but the North and South are different and it is important that they are played as such in game.

In Tuluk it is a hatred of magick.  The fear goes beyond mere fear, it is a hatred.  The people of Tuluk should loathe magick.  If they discover a magicker the magicker is turned in immediately and dissapeared.  In Allanak - the magicker would be gemmed and kept around (unless they did something bad of course).  So to keep it simple - the difference is fear versus hate.  Fear in Allanak and hate in Tuluk.

[Quirk]

Magickers are not as feared in 'Nak as in Tuluk. It's the way it is. People are more or less used to seeing gemmers, and the fear for the wielders of magick is simply not going to reach the same heights as it is in places where magick is virtually unknown. There's a spectrum of reactions to magick from the reverence of tribes for their shamans to the blind hatred of the Northerners, and the range of reactions in 'Nak lies somewhere in the middle of that range.

I agree with your spectrum but I feel that you've placed Allanak to low in it.  The difference is simple - Tuluk _hates_ magick, Allanak _fears_ magick.  That's the difference right there.  

Of course they fear it. However, in times of need great enough to overcome that fear, many may well go to a magicker for help nonetheless. It's a pact with a demon, certainly, but compared to undergoing a passage to an uncertain afterlife or losing a loved one it's often not the worst option. The key is that this fear is limited. The VNPCs in the Noble Houses ordered to train alongside magickers find their fear of displeasing their noble lords outweighs that of magick. The parched citizens buying magicker water find that their fear of dehydration outweighs their fear of magick. There is not the same level of fear for magick itself as is present in Tuluk, just as there is not the same level of fear for magickers.

I would leave that up to the Nobles themselves.  I've seen many many many nobles refuse magickal healing.  Why?  Because they fear it or do not trust the caster or had a bad experience or... Let them come to their own conclusions and reactions.

Personal reasons such as distrust of the caster or previous bad experiences can hardly be seen as factor in the general view of magickers  by the nobles employing them. That many PCs playing nobles may decide their PC fears magick doesn't impress me especially, as I suspect most haven't thought through how the differences in their upbringing would have influenced their take on common views.

I believe that is exactly the point of view of the majority of the people in Allanak.  They fear magick.  While it is around - they still fear it.

I never said it was otherwise. I pointed out that it was not as feared. Magickal help is an option few even in 'Nak would choose lightly, but it is not an option most would never consider.

Quirk

[Intrepid]

I would have to agree with Quirk here.  For years, both players and
staff have been trying to create an atmosphere counter to the way the
game once was: Elves riding kanks, everyone being nice to magickers
and mantis, etc.  That's great, and I'm all for it.  What we're seeing
these days is that the setting is beginning to swing so far in the
opposite direction as to be unrealistic from the other end.  Ie, elves
and magickers being murdered on sight in Allanak, never being able
to get hired by anyone, being virtually unable to interact in the same
room with mundane humans, etc.  The pendulum has finally swung so
far to the extreme that common sense problems are happening once
again, just in the opposite ways.  The setting needs to find some
moderation and a happy medium somewhere in between, imo.

Magickers obviously are not starving to death in Allanak, otherwise,
I'm sorry, they would have left and never come back.  No matter how
unsafe it might be outside the city, if you're faced with being murdered
and/or starving to death because you have no money, you might just
take your chances elsewhere.  As a stark as Zalanthas is, patriotism is
not a trait I find in great abundance, especially when you're an abused
minority.  Someone is obviously hiring these people and tolerating
them enough on some level to use them.

I guess, what I'm saying, is that we need to remember that roleplayers,
especially mudders, go to extremes to be able to prove that they are
portraying the setting correctly.  This is one of these situations where,
if everyone behaved as most pcs do, there would be no elementalists
quarter and little to no magickers in the city.  Some distinction in the
setting has to be made.  "Tolerated" is a bit more moderate of a
sentiment than "we haven't killed this pc yet".

[Delirium]

I would have to agree with Quirk here.  For years, both players and
staff have been trying to create an atmosphere counter to the way the
game once was: Elves riding kanks, everyone being nice to magickers
and mantis, etc.  That's great, and I'm all for it.  What we're seeing
these days is that the setting is beginning to swing so far in the
opposite direction as to be unrealistic from the other end.  Ie, elves
and magickers being murdered on sight in Allanak, never being able
to get hired by anyone, being virtually unable to interact in the same
room with mundane humans, etc.  The pendulum has finally swung so
far to the extreme that common sense problems are happening once
again, just in the opposite ways.  The setting needs to find some
moderation and a happy medium somewhere in between, imo.

Magickers obviously are not starving to death in Allanak, otherwise,
I'm sorry, they would have left and never come back.  No matter how
unsafe it might be outside the city, if you're faced with being murdered
and/or starving to death because you have no money, you might just
take your chances elsewhere.  As a stark as Zalanthas is, patriotism is
not a trait I find in great abundance, especially when you're an abused
minority.  Someone is obviously hiring these people and tolerating
them enough on some level to use them.

I guess, what I'm saying, is that we need to remember that roleplayers,
especially mudders, go to extremes to be able to prove that they are
portraying the setting correctly.  This is one of these situations where,
if everyone behaved as most pcs do, there would be no elementalists
quarter and little to no magickers in the city.  Some distinction in the
setting has to be made.  "Tolerated" is a bit more moderate of a
sentiment than "we haven't killed this pc yet".

I could not have said it better. I encounter this problem every time I play a magicker, and trust me, though I admittedly didn't have enough time to devote to the game to start up plots, I did my best to find things to get mixed up in and create goals for my character - but the severity of the discrimination often makes it extremely difficult to have fun with a (known) mage. I was disappointed when my last mage died, but at the same time, I practically breathed a sigh of relief, because lately it seems like the role of a mage, especially a gemmed one, is a cage in which you have to be either extremely creative or simply have a lot of time to devote to the game (which I didn't) to maneuver around in.

[Anonymous]

Whenever this topic comes up I like to compare it to the mafia.

Some made guy walks into the bar and sits down, you aren't going to start hurling racial slurs at him.  You aren't going to sneer, you aren't going to do anything of the sort.  You'll probably be nice and quiet.  If spoken to you'll respond out of politeness but inside you'll be hoping the conversation ends quickly.

Maybe, after a few talks with the guy you realize that one conversation isn't going to end up with you laundering money.  But that doesn't change the fact that in the back of your head you know he's a made guy and has probably done some hardcore stuff.

The point is, you can interact with magickers.  Magickers are hated out of fear.  Elves are hated because of their low moral fiber.   The two types of hatred elicit very different responses.

That all being said, if Allanak became an open paradise for magickers they would become too prevalent in the game.  Why take the assassin or merchant or pickpocket guild for your house Aide PC when you can take Krathi or Whiran and still get the job while wearing a gem?

Still, I think perhaps the next HRPT (which by all rights will probably be Allanak-focused just based on the HRPT attention Tuluk has gotten lately) could possibly serve as a way to gently push things back into perspective without resulting in Allanak becoming gemmed City.

[Gesht]

- - Let's not overlook the fact that Athens also had reading, writing, and education. Greece was also constantly at war or involved in conflicts with other nations.  Tuluk was ruled by Allanak for several decades, and since then hasn't been in a position to be easily reconquered by them.  They briefly had the need but not the means, then immediately went back to the means but not the need.

- - As for art, I know that people love to try and make an art out of everything in this game. However there IS a difference between art and engineering.  At some point, an uneducated commoner is not going to be able to philosophize engineering concepts into personal expression. You can only talk black into white so efficiently without being well-read.

- - Back to technology, though. Tuluk and Allanak are in the same boat, at opposite ends.  Tuluk could be a haven for invention, but the lack of pressing need and the illiteracy are going to stagnate it.  Allanak has all the pressing needs in the world, but neither the resources nor the literacy.  Both city-states strive to keep their citizens at a certain stupidity level.  Neither is a better environment for invention than the other.

[Stroker]

Lets remember how Native Americans never invented the wheel, at least we have that. Be happy, nay - delighted that we at least have that.

[Angela Christine]

Lets remember how Native Americans never invented the wheel, at least we have that. Be happy, nay - delighted that we at least have that.

They had wheels, they just didn't have axels.    


AC