Mul and their owners

[Vettrock]

Would it be a viable concept to play a Mul who is a slave, but has a virtual owner?  The helpfile does say that mul are generally out of reach even for wealthy private citizens, so maybe one of the Noble houses that doesn't have players like Kassigarh or Lyksae in the north or Rennik or Valika in the South?  

If you belong to one these houses you would probably need some Immortal approval, but do you think this would be a valid concept?

[Marauder Moe]

I think I read somewhere that cheaper muls where in the range of 10,000 'sid, easily within the range of succesful independant merchants (I mean like a virtual merchant with his own trade wagon and shop in the bazaar/market, not so much a PC merchant).  There are also many NPC muls that don't have markings of great merchant or noble houses.

For a player, though, I suppose it could work if you have the karma for it.  I don't really see a special app for an unclanned mul getting approved, though.  Do you really want to do that, though?  You'd need a really good reason why your owner lets you wander off to the local tavern in your free time, or why he/she even gives you free time at all.

[Anonymous]

Why not play a mul who is owned by a player and/or clan?  If you're going to be an enslaved mul, I imagine that would be a lot more interactive and enjoyable than having NPC owners.  In fact, what would you do exactly if you're owned by a virtual owner/clan?

[Vettrock]

I would expect the mul to go to the taverns, but it would at least let the mul go to the bazaar and buy stuff, and do a little traveling (at the requst of your virtual owner without having to quit out in a cave, which is more than you have with the escaped slave concept which pretty much limits you to Red Storm.

I don't know that I would actually do this.  Right now its just sort of an idea I was thinking about.  When my current character dies after a few RL years maybe I'll do this...      :wink:

[Vettrock]

The problem with being owned by another player is your subjecting youself to their playtimes and restrictions.  With a virtual owner you are essentially both the slave and the owner....Hey mul go out and kill me a Scrab and bring me back the shell....OK not the best example, but that is the basic point.

[Same Guest As Last Time]

I don't think it's fair to assume the commands of a virtual master, personally.

I can understand the fear of being attached to a single player, but why not a clan?  You could choose anything from one of the noble Houses to the T'zai Byn even I bet.  You may even have the option of a merchant house as well.  I think any of those examples would be a lot more fun than a single master PC or a virtual master.

[I'm a mul]

To do what you ask, I would inquire with the MUD account and see if they would allow it.

Now, before you do so, I must ask... why?

I'm not understanding why you would wish to be a mul with a virtual owner.  Since muls, in the south, are typically arena beasts and those that are outside the arena have very specialized tasks - how does having a virtual owner 'help?'

In the example you give - one would hope that no owner would ever allow a mul to go out alone and do such a thing.  The risks are too great.  In most circumstances muls are always surrounded by additional guards - to prevent any accidents.  Muls outside the arena are typically not armed nor do they wear armour.  Sometimes a good way to view a mul is to see one as a rotweiler or some other aggressive dog bred to kill.  While a well conditioned mul (or a well trained rotweiler) shouldn't do anything bad - there is always that fear that they may.  

On top of that off-the-arena muls often have some sort of flaw in their combat ability that took them out of the arena.  

The next thing to keep in mind is that while some muls may cost as little as 10k - that doesn't mean everyone is allowed to buy one.  Therefore if you start putting 'independent' ownership in your background there may be questions (or not).  

Anyway, back to the original thought.  One would not send a rotweiler out without its master nearby to ensure that it does not get out of hand.  The same goes for a mul.  One may dress up a rotweiler with a chain and spikes and one may do the same for a mul.  The thing is, muls are dangerous.  Everyone knows that muls are dangerous.

[wizturbo]

Muls don't cost 10,000 sid.

Yes, their initial cost might be that, but the cost of security necessary to buy one, and the trust from mul breeders to sell you one comes at a much higher price.

Hell, if all they cost was 10,000, i could buy at least four of them myself right now and just walk around with 4 mul slaves.


You have to feed them, give them water, keep them from killing the local populus...this requires much more resources then just the initial selling price.

[Gilvar]

Code Select Expand


Slave Pricing Guidelines

Category  Price
unskilled labor slave   500 ~ 3000 obsidian (depends on physical traits: age, strength, race, etc.)
non-mul, humanoid gladiator  ~5000 obsidian
untrained mul  ~7000 obsidian
trained mul gladiator  ~10000 obsidian

Non-humanoid races are priced depending on rarity and usefulness (usually as a gladiator). A fit, trained mul gladiator will almost always draw the highest prices, from 10k upwards, depending on actual history in the arena. Unfit, sickly, unskilled humans & half-elves will draw the poorest price, going for as little as a few hundred sids. Fit children may draw a little more than other unskilled slaves, as they can often be more readily controlled & taught.




http://www.armageddon.org/general/slavery.html

10000 is the extremely high-range.

The only reason why slaves are not commonly allowed to be bought by everyone is because there is no viable way to play them. People are welcome to buy VNPC slaves I think, but that is up to the slaving houses probably.

Its discouraged to play a Slave to a VNPC because it makes it impossible for authorities to ever meet that person, and leaves you in highly unrealistic situations. You are either granted oddly extreme freedom, or would be with your master most of the time... probably in a virtual location as well.

Its encouraged to play either a house slave or a slave to a PC.

[Ayashah]

10000 is the extremely high-range.

I wouldnt say it's the 'extremely' high range but a standard priced for a trained mul. The better the mul is, the higher the price.

The only reason why slaves are not commonly allowed to be bought by everyone is because there is no viable way to play them. People are welcome to buy VNPC slaves I think, but that is up to the slaving houses probably.

I wouldnt say that either. Slaves are a product and a matter of status. Those that sell those slaves arent going to want every Joe Schmoe to have a slave and step above their 'status' level.

[Gilvar]

I wouldnt say it's the 'extremely' high range but a standard priced for a trained mul. The better the mul is, the higher the price.

Standard price for a mul trained for the arena. If used elsewhere it would be creme of body-guards/fighting machines. Its the highest price, and extremely high compared to the 500 for a common slave.

I wouldnt say that either. Slaves are a product and a matter of status. Those that sell those slaves arent going to want every Joe Schmoe to have a slave and step above their 'status' level.

Not really. They are product and it doesn't matter who owns them. As long as the seller gets their money. If you have the money to afford a slave your considered in the status level of owning and buying one. Thats like saying the guy at the Kadian Luxury shop would refuse service to the commoner of that 8000 sid dress because that dress should only be worn by people of a certain status level.

Money defines status, except when say a commoner and noble are juxtaposed. In this case name would distinguish one from the other. But that is also minimalized by the fact that 10,000 sid would mean comparitively little to an entire Noble house, while it could well cripple a commoner, since that is probably a SAVINGS and not their regular income. But buying and owning slaves is not something reserved to those of name alone. Thats why players, regular Joe Schmoe players have not only requested slaves to serve under them, but have had people apply, and have played as such. Its not common, but thats a matter of players wanting to, not that its not possible.

[Pungee]

Not really. They are product and it doesn't matter who owns them. As long as the seller gets their money.

I've actually considered trying to purchase a slave previously on another character and was turned down on the status of my PC. I might be reading what you're saying wrong, but it seems you're saying if you've got the money it's yours. If that is the case, my experience says otherwise.

[Clegane]

Actually, Gilvar, it was explained to me quite differently when I played my last Borsail noble (roughly 16 months ago).

We were strongly discouraged ICly from selling slaves to 'just anyone.' Virtual slaves, NPC slaves, PC slaves, whatever.

The primary reason for this, as illustrated to me at the time, was that the House would never sell its product to someone who could, in some eventuality, wind up breaking that product and making it look very bad.

We had to be fairly assured that the slaves would not be starved, incited to rebellion, granted immediate freedom by some bleeding-heart-commoner, or any other such thing that could potentially disrupt years and years of breeding and make the breeders look incompetent. A certain level of familiarity with breed-handling and a clear demonstration of means of upkeep were absolutely -required- before a sale was made.

Slaves have as much propensity to be broken as a Salarri blade or a Kadian bauble. The problem is, when a slave gets 'broken', very very bad things can happen to many people nearby. Doubly so if muls are involved.

And if some idiot crafter who thinks he can afford a mul then winds up starving it into some blood-crazed frenzy and it ends up wasting two templrs in the ensuing carnage, who do you think gets the ultimate blame? Borsail.
Either for breeding a bad slave or for selling to a questionable buyer.
And even if they aren't fined or chastised for it directly, it -does- affect their reputation and their perceived professionalism. Both extremely critical factors in the Tiers.

In either event, Borsail (and possibly Kasix) does NOT sell slaves to 'anyone who can afford them' for that very reason. Especially muls.

It very much matters who owns them, given the level of potential and culpability for defect.

[Ayashah]

Exactly Clegane

And I can guarantee you, if I have a mul that's winning in arena and so forth, the mul would definitely cost more than 10k for me to sell it. So yes, 10k is NOT the max level of cost for a mul. Comparing a mul to a human for pricing is like comparing a donkey to a champion stallion. No comparison.

[Vettrock]

The discussion seem to indicate that Muls are never left unsupervised, but clearly in the game there and many muls (NPC) going about the business of there master unescourted.  In addition, there are mulish Sergeants in at least one organization.  If the Mul is a sergeant, He can go out with a few troops for training or a mission etc. and the mul would be in charge from my understanding.  He may be a slave, but he is still in charge and carries the authority of that rank, correct?

Or are you saying a mulish Sergeant only go anywhere when there was also a lieutentant in the party as well?

[Tamarin]

Muls appear to be left supervised, but then again, so do gemmed magickers.  Slaves are like credit cards: you think they belong to you, but they really secretly belong to the credit card company.  So even if the mul isn't in your clan's compound, the city is watching them for you to make sure they don't go crazy and kill a bunch of people or escape.

As for mulish sergeants...not only have they become sergeants, they have become battle commanders and warlords, all under the guise of slavery.  Also, Muls and other slaves can buy their freedom if they are allowed to save money.

I think the fact that you may be overlooking, is mulish slaves would not think about slavery the same way our characters do.  They have lived their whole lives that way, and any deviation from that structure is likely a terrifying thought.  To me, this thread is little more than an attempt to play a mul unattached to a clan.

[marko]

There are two types of muls - those that are slaves and those that are free.

A mul is a beast that has overwhelming emotions and a mul's conditioning is an attempt to control the mul and their emotion.  Mul slaves are considered conditioned - free muls have somehow either broken their conditioning or were born free (an imm can correct me in this regard as to whether or not muls are currently able to be born free).  The process of breaking one's conditioning is often a very traumatic event (sometimes involving the death of the bondmate) and a mul typically rages in the process.

Afterwards - the mul is left with a terrible thought.  What is it?

The 'problem' with muls is that they have no culture, they have no goals, and they have no life of their own.  A mul cannot breed.  Without breeding what is there to strive for?  Couple this with extreme emotions you often have muls that literally die of depression without a master.  A conditioned mul is taught from birth that they are nothing without a master.  Unlike half-giants who are simple and will 'adopt' the culture of those around them a mul is a complicated, intelligent beast with a profound level of emotion and empathy.

Now, a few muls can make it through the process of breaking their conditioning.  These muls are the ones that find _something_ to live for.  Sometimes it is an adopted house, sometimes it is a tribe, sometimes a surrogate bondmate - whatever.  Since muls are so strong physically and most have initial training in combat and tactics (most muls are bred for the arena) they can end up being amazing commanders.  Because of their strong loyalty to their new cause - they can become the perfect protective war leader.

I get my information from having played a Borsail noble for a time and paraphrasing the wonderful mul documentation.  

Btw, in my view, most citizens of the cities would be very frightened of a free mul  - because they have no conditioning left they can be wild and unpredictable bound to rage over the smallest of things.  Most citizens will have seen a mul rage at some point or another in the arena.  A raging mul can and will kill everything around it - no matter who or what it is.  

Now, some believe that those muls that make it through the process of breaking their conditioning will learn to contain their anger (once more, I cannot stress enough that a mul is an extremely emotional beast) and thus can operate with a relative predictability.  Personally, I would assume those strong enough to survive the breaking of their conditioning (a shattering of all they were and are) and found some reason to pick up the pieces - then I'd think they'd be very strong willed and thus have some mechanism to keep their emotions controled and contained.  

Other muls will discover they are nothing without a master and will constantly struggle to find a new one.  Then they will rage against their 'bondage' and escape (or kill their new master) only to delve into depression once more.  And thus they initiate a cycle in their life that they cannot escape until they die.  Remember, the slave conditioning is massive.

One other thing - to the best of my knowledge in the south only House Borsail breeds muls.  In the north only Winrothol breeds muls.  Once again, an immortal can correct me if I am wrong as to the current status of muls.

As for the matter of price - I have personally seen muls been sold from anywhere between 10k to 25k.  I've never seen a mul sold for less than 10k and I was informed that muls are only sold to 'acceptable' candidates.  In my time with Borsail they discriminated as to who can buy a mul.

In real life there are examples and they can be found with breeders of exotic and prized animals.  For example, in dog breeding, you will find breeders who will refuse to sell their animal to certain owners even if they have the money.  Many breeders of the more exotic (and desireable) breeds will actually interview the prospective buyer to determine if they would be a good owner.  If one were to combine our current day dog breeders with an aristocratic upbringing and a noble's mindset one can see how they would limit "their" equisite and exotic goods to only the "right" people.

[Vettrock]

To me, this thread is little more than an attempt to play a mul unattached to a clan.

This is true, if you read my first message that was essentially what I was asking about.  I'm not ashamed to admit it.  I probably won't try playing a mul when my current character dies(in like a RL year or two) :lol: .  But I was just sorta brainstorming ideas.

On a side note since muls are now Karma level 7, does that mean I can trade in my mul option for a 5 and an 2? :twisted:

[Gilvar]

Borsail is not the sole-seller of slaves. Kasix and Borsail are not the sole seller of slaves. While a borsail slave might only be sold to a selective clientiel this DOES NOT REPRESENT all slaves in Allanak. Anyone with people in their debt could potentially become a slave owner when those people decide to sell their children to pay it off. And that slave-owner might decide to sell the slaves in the future.

So I guess I stand corrected in a sense, but slaves are not solely sold by Borsail, and not slaves are not solely bought from Borsail. They control the market in high-quality, well-trained, and well-bred slaves.

[Mr.Camel]

What about muls? Does anyone other than Borsail and Kasix breed muls?

[Gilvar]

Breed probably not, as it'd be an expensive, secret, possibly magick involving process. Sell, most likely. As there have been at least a handful of mul-slaves owned by common PCs, and if Borsail doesn't sell Slaves to Commoners, someone must've.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I have played a mul with a VNPC owner. While it was a brief interlude, I assure you that it was not frowned upon. However, properly viewing the limits of your VNPC owner's leash is an aspect most players will miss. For that reason, even I recommend a PC master.

[moab]

This is true, if you read my first message that was essentially what I was asking about.  I'm not ashamed to admit it.

There is nothing wrong with playing an unattaached mul - when I usually play a mul they are typically unattached.  Some of them find new relationships that mirror the master/slave situation, some do not.  Most don't live very long though.  :-)

I love muls, especially free muls that choose a life of some type of service.  To me they are as much fun as sorcs to play because - and maybe its just me - they allow so much philosophical freedom.

Through the mul (and to some degree sorcs - though its easy to get preoccupied with magicky stuff) you really can - rephrase that - have to question who you are and why you are doing what you're doing.

[Anarchy]

The discussion seem to indicate that Muls are never left unsupervised, but clearly in the game there and many muls (NPC) going about the business of there master unescourted.  In addition, there are mulish Sergeants in at least one organization.  If the Mul is a sergeant, He can go out with a few troops for training or a mission etc. and the mul would be in charge from my understanding.  He may be a slave, but he is still in charge and carries the authority of that rank, correct?

Or are you saying a mulish Sergeant only go anywhere when there was also a lieutentant in the party as well?

Mmm, i'll use the byn as an example. Im not certain on this, but im sure its close enough..

Only one hell of a trusted Mul is going to ever become a Sergeant - dont fall into the mindset a mul hates being a slave. To a Mul being a sergeant is like that wet dream you all have come true. They are an important working member of a group. They are apart of somthing. That Mul sergeant is going to be deathly loyal. - However all non-mul sergeants will have higher rank then the mul. I  dont see why a mul sergeant cannot take a handful of runners and troopers out on a desert mission without a human sergeant. Since after all - once the mul has found himself after searching all his life - WHY would he throw it away for freedom - a near unknown idea to him.

[Ayashah]

Borsail is not the sole-seller of slaves. Kasix and Borsail are not the sole seller of slaves. While a borsail slave might only be sold to a selective clientiel this DOES NOT REPRESENT all slaves in Allanak. Anyone with people in their debt could potentially become a slave owner when those people decide to sell their children to pay it off. And that slave-owner might decide to sell the slaves in the future.

So I guess I stand corrected in a sense, but slaves are not solely sold by Borsail, and not slaves are not solely bought from Borsail. They control the market in high-quality, well-trained, and well-bred slaves.

I dont think anyone said that Borsail was the only seller of slaves, just the only sellers in the south of mul slaves. As for selling off children or people with a debt to you, I would LOVE seeing that. I made that suggestion in another post where I would expect to see more serfs. Regrettably, people bring in their RL prejudices about slavery/serfdom and would rather die than be a slave/serf. I know a few years back, my pc was enslaved and I hated it at the time. Hated being restricted when I just made a pc that did nothing but be associated with someone else that got killed by the templarate. I look back now and wish I had gone with the role more. I think the templar took pity and could tell I hated it, so off'd my pc after awhile and that is something I regret. Perhaps one of these days I will end up in the same position and try the role out.