give 1200 coins hairy

[Seeker]

What is the general opinion?  Are there bigger coins or different marked coins for larger denominations?  Is there an accepted standard anywhere for the "five small" trading 'sid?

It is odd, because the weight seems to based upon "per each", but some Zalanthans would spend a -huge- amount of their daily lives counting and recounting otherwise.

Officially sealed, untamperable pouches recognized as the "one large" pouch?  

There has -got- to be a scam-market going on somewhere.


Seeker

[Black Isis]

I would think that House Nenyuk would offer letters of credit or bank notes of some sort.  Sort of, you pay 550 obsidian to the bank in Tuluk, get a note with a wax seal that entitles you to 500 obsidian, you go to Allanak, and sell the note to the Nenyuk bank.  The Nenyuk folks make money, you get an easy way to carry around a lot of money, and everyone wins.  Assuming someone doesn't find a way to counterfeit notes by the thousands.

[Anonymous]

In the past I've seen and done different things to indicate counting the coin.  From hefting a bag to test its weight to using in-game objects to aid with the counting to counting off coins by the tens.

I've seen people emote that they had a 50sid piece, which I think would be the best way to go about it, but since I've never seen an official staff response I've never followed suit.

[My 2 sids]

I would think that House Nenyuk would offer letters of credit or bank notes of some sort. Sort of, you pay 550 obsidian to the bank in Tuluk, get a note with a wax seal that entitles you to 500 obsidian, you go to Allanak, and sell the note to the Nenyuk bank. The Nenyuk folks make money, you get an easy way to carry around a lot of money, and everyone wins. Assuming someone doesn't find a way to counterfeit notes by the thousands.

Perhaps ICly characters should start to develop money?

[Gilvar]

Find something small thats worth 1000 sids and there you go

Maybe a diamond of some sort. Or a very small piece of metal. Maybe a finger-nail size that is neither useful nor interesting. But its metal.

[Seeker]

The game is really not set up for bartering with the NPC population.  Shop merchants don't universally recognize the value of precious stones or any other commodity.  

We're set up to use the coin economy.  You lose value in buying anything from the NPC shops with 'sids, and then again in selling commodities for 'sids to use for trade.  That's how the traders make their livelihood after all.

It just seems that there should be some recognized convention to justify and simplify the frequent transactions of literally thousands of small stone chips.  Not a new item type, or a code change.  Just a convient RP tool I could use in regular play.


Seeker

[Gilvar]

Well npcs can also be 'virtually' bartered with. But I was speaking more for PCs. Like several things in game rely on an 'imaginary' bartering system, especially people that would not use sid.

[gfair]

There have been, to my recollection, two major discussions on the currency in Zalanthas. The Knights Templar used to issue paper notes back in the days of gold coins, and that was suggested here.

Finding something worth a lot works, but you run into challenges with that. There have to be diamonds available all over the known world for the money supply to be sufficient for it to be accepted.

I don't want to see the currency system change into one like other muds that use copper, silver and gold pieces. That's just a nightmare, it would never work in the real world.

Then again, there are rarely any large payments of sid that people can't carry round in the form of the coins we have now.

[ShaLeah]

The game is really not set up for bartering with the NPC population.  Shop merchants don't universally recognize the value of precious stones or any other commodity.  

It does seem that way, doesn't it?

I like to think it of it like this. These established merchants who have a regular stand or hut or route, are there to sell -their- items, not gather items they may or may not be able to barter with. In many cases these stores are run by a major merchant house and I don't think any merchant House would be interested in getting an item when they have scores of scavengers taking care of the dirty work for them. The NPC's never barter with items either, you don't offer them your necklace to have them offer you a bottle of perfume and a loaf of bread in exchange, they give you cold, hard (obsidian) cash.

I don't really care that we don't have a 10 sid chip, I don't really want Nenyuk to ask me how I want my 300 sid,  it'd be a little to real world for me.


ShaLeah
-who would like to have a money hungry character who is rich enough to fill a bath tub with sid to soak in it...

[Dracul]

I don't want to see the currency system change into one like other muds that use copper, silver and gold pieces. That's just a nightmare, it would never work in the real world.

Then again, there are rarely any large payments of sid that people can't carry round in the form of the coins we have now.

I think it would work very well...just not with gold, silver and copper.

I can see chips of obsidian being coins. And then there being some coins that are actually formed. Crafted, made with details marked by an agent of teklones (or...nenyuk?). Crafting them though...or making them would be highly illegal, similiar to trying to make money in the real world.

Still...I think that a noble wouldn't issue a guard to carry his sid about himself. And especially those of the richer class...they would come up with a way to buy their silks and gems with their wealth. Not a hug bag of sid.


I like the suggestion, and would vote for it. Although if there isn't enough support, we obviously make do. (And the character I have rarely deal with 20,000 obsidian coins at a time. Though I've seen some situtations...a little distant though. Poor me. ...literally. heh.)

[Sanvean]

There are some NPCs that work through barter, but the NPCs in the city-states want cash. I'm willing to think this reflects the difference between the boonies and the big cities, and that there are different denominations of coins. I

f someone wants to get ambitious and write up a virtual system (which, imo, would be cooler if it's not base ten), we can turn it into a help file for RP purposes.

[UnderSeven]

That sounds fun, I'd love to, but has anyone else started doing this yet..?  Twould be nice that if people were thinking about working on it, that could be known so others wouldn't write up a beautiful system.. to be scrapped.  But hey, if someone DOES write up a beautiful system to be scrapped, it could go into the history files for a destroyed zalathaian civ, now THAT woudl be cool too.

[Peabody]

I dono..

If we suppose atm coins are all 1 denomination, I dont see Nenyuk releasing larger denominations any time soon.  Not only from the stand point that they would rather have your coins in thier vaults so they can use it to make more money, but also the cost of production of the new coins would be prohibitive.

[UnderSeven]

Nenyuk doesn't make the coins, Allanak does, so it has nothing to do with Nenyuk.  As far as Allanak is concerned I can think of reasons for different coins.

[My 2 sids]

I'll say only once... I promise.  NPCs it would be very hard to code the barer system realistically... so coins are needed.   However... if we had more pc merchants... maybe it would be easier to get away from having to use only obsidian coins.

[Kronus]

I don't want to see the currency system change into one like other muds that use copper, silver and gold pieces. That's just a nightmare, it would never work in the real world.

That's for sure. Those copper pennies, silver dimes and gold dollar coins are just so unrealistic!  

But on a serious note, I've never liked the way coins are handled in the game. Walking into a store and buying a sword would take an hour as you sit there and carefully count out hundreds of 'sid, then hand them over and wait for the storekeeper to count them all too, just so everyone's sure they're not being robbed. It'd be like buying your morning latte with pennies.

A discussion came up a long time ago on the board about the obsidian coin, so everyone should read it first, especially the parts pertaining to why obsidian coins have any value in the first place. I still stand by the opinions I expressed last year in that thread, so that's all from me today.

[Delirium]

I stand by the opinion that there are fifty sid, twenty sid, five sid, and one sid pieces.. for the reason that was illustrated above. Counting out your coins to shopkeepers would take WAY too long otherwise.

[spawnloser]

Coin values, idea not in base ten.
New coin: value relative to current coin system
Bite: 1 coin
Fist: 5 coins
Sword: 25 coins
Tower: 125 coins

Or to put it another way...
125 Bites = 25 Fists = 5 Swords = 1 Tower

Logic behind these, more power as you work your way from the smaller coins to the larger...since they are 'Allanaki' coins, Tek's tower ruling over all...beneath that the sword...sword beats fist...bite coming in last because a civilized being would not stoop to such a means to cause harm to another, and thus is inferior to fist.

[My 2 sids]

It'd be like buying your morning latte with pennies.

I believe simply using scales would solve this problem.  Back when coins and gold were still popular most stores used scales instead of counting out coins or gold nuggets.  The shop keep would keep weights of maybe ten, fifty, one hundred and scale it against however many coins were dumped onto the other side.  By using weight over and over people should be able to guess how heavy any amount would be.  If you know you have about 100 coins in your pouch then pour about half out to get fifty coins.  Weigh it up and you and the shop keep are on your way.

As for paper money... if the money system is to refine itself and become more complex, I think it should start and do mostly though IC means.  Obsidian coins provide playability and anything more would simply be for IC reasons.

[Forest Junkie]

spawnloser has a nice idea.

[Angela Christine]

If you look around you might see ways that people keep track of large ammounts without needing to count.  Besides scales, you also have sticks and tubes that measure the height of a stack of coins, like a ruler.  You might see a coin belt that has tube shaped pouches, and each tube holds exactly 100 coins when full, so you need three tubes of coins to buy a 300 'sid breastplate.  Weighing, stacking and rolling coins seem like reasonable ways of handling large amounts of coin.  

I imagine, for a small fee, Nenyuk might provide large amounts of coin in rigid, reusable tubes.  Unlike a pouch, a tube would be difficult to mess with, and you could easily pour the tube out into a stack, which could then be measured against a coinstick to make sure it was the right amount.  Unlike rolling coins in paper, with rigid tubes you wouldn't need to count the coins before packing them, when the tube is full you have exactly 100 coins.  Leather boiled in wax ought to make a good tube that is both reusable and relatively inexpensive.


If I have a planned purchase with a PC I might emote handing them a pouch of coins and telling them I had the banker count it out for me, saving me the trouble of counting it.  Many merchant PCs will emote weighing the coins in their hand, it seems reasonable that someone who handles many coins would know what 500 coins should feel like.  It's like those old recipies that tell you to use a pinch of this, a dash of that, and a double handfull of something else, leaving a modern reader looking at her precision crafted measureing spoons helplessly and wondering "how much is in a handfull?"  Just for flavor, when I'm dealing with a PC and handing over a large amount of coins I'll sometimes be off a few coins, not more than 10.  Sure, OOCly I know exactly how much I handed him and he knows exactly how much he recieved, but most players will play along and "not notice" that they have been shorted or overpaid a couple coins.  Perfection is over-rated.


AC

[SpyGuy]

Nice touch AC, I'll have to try that out.

[spawnloser]

The problem with stacks being measure in Zalanthas...Have you ever seen worked obsidian in real life?  That shit fractures like a mother fucker.  Good luck getting it into a regular shape...again and again...and again some more.  There will be variations in coins that could throw off any measurement by size to get the total number of coins.

[Angela Christine]

Measuring devices exist, therefore the coins are measurable.

I think the explanation may lay in the method used to convert raw obsidian into obsidian coins.  Trying to carve dimes out of obsidian shards would be hard, especially since certain tattoos imply that these coins actually have pictures on them.  Assuming these things are smaller than a coaster, it's hard to imagine that there would be enough skilled artisans to keep carving the coins.

Suppose that the coins aren't carved at all.  Could the obsidian be heated back into molten glass and then molded into coins.  Sure, it would be hard to get that kind of controled heat in Zalanthas, you might even need to use magick since combustables seem rare in around Allanak, but molding molten glass into coins would have some advantages over carved glass.  It would be very difficult, for the coins to be counterfeited.  The molded coins might even be stronger than carved coins.

Then again, perhaps breakable coins is the point.  A broken coin is worthless.  The government produces coins, then uses them to buy goods and services.  The coins move into the marketplace, a percentage of them shattering and becoming worthless, creating a demand for more coins.  That way the government can print money at will without causing inflation, because the total amount coins in circulation remains stable.  The money self-destructs after the templarate uses it, sort of like a tax you don't see comming.  :twisted:


AC

[jhunter]

Suppose that the coins aren't carved at all. Could the obsidian be heated back into molten glass and then molded into coins. Sure, it would be hard to get that kind of controled heat in Zalanthas, you might even need to use magick since combustables seem rare in around Allanak, but molding molten glass into coins would have some advantages over carved glass. It would be very difficult, for the coins to be counterfeited. The molded coins might even be stronger than carved coins.

Seems like a reasonable possibility considering there are gemmed in 'Nak and all. Maybe that's the only reason they tolerate them being around.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I beleive AC has the right idea, if not the exact process. It seems the most likely, and in fact was what I had considered when reading the first post.

Good job.

I'd suggest the staff adopt this method, perhaps document it, and so forth.

[Anonymous]

Huh, obsidian is a real material?  I'd assumed it was made up for Arm...
:shock:

[Angela Christine]

Obsidian is volcanic glass.  Often black, but it occurs in a variety of other colours as well.

http://mineral.galleries.com/minerals/mineralo/obsidian/obsidian.htm

AC

[Ghost]

You know it is used "a large" for thousand sids.

And "a small" for hundred sids.

If I have 1250 coins in my pack, I say " I have a large two small and fifty coins. "  

I was thinking it works that way.  You dot count all the money one by one, but you give it as a large one small one and coins etc.

[John]

If I have 1250 coins in my pack, I say " I have a large two small and fifty coins. "

I'd be more inclined to say "1 large, two small and half a dozen double handfuls"

I like using the term "handful" for 5 (so double-handful being 10).

[Delirium]

If I have 1250 coins in my pack, I say " I have a large two small and fifty coins. "

I'd be more inclined to say "1 large, two small and half a dozen double handfuls"

I like using the term "handful" for 5 (so double-handful being 10).

Oooh, I like that. Don't mind if I steal it.

[Ghost]

Sure.. But you know the rule?

You can only steal the coins.  If you steal 30 coins when I have a large, you have to emote exchanging the coins and putting most back into my pocket

[Angela Christine]

Not a handfull, a hand.  A hand of coins is five coins, because a hand has five digits (usually).  A "handfull" of coins is merely "some," it depends on the size of the hand.  A half-giant calling 5 coins a handfull would be dumb.


AC

[spawnloser]

Whoever said 'a large' was one coin, Ghost?  Until the coins come in larger denominations, they are all 1 'sid coins to me.  Also, if you have 'a large' and I successfully steal some of it from you, I think that I should just 'ooc Hey man, I just stole your large from you and only got 73 coins, could you give me the rest of that thousand, since I obviously made my skill check?'  Seriously, why would I have to give anything back?  I am the one that succesfully stole from your dumb ass that has all your money in one big coin that is easier to lift.

[SpyGuy]

Clearly if we had different denominations of coins you'd need to be able to steal them as wholes.  That would probably be one of the harder things to code and one of the reasons why RPing different coin denominations is inappropriate.

That being said I like ACs idea of melting the 'sid.  I don't know if its feasible in RL but this is a fantasy world so, there you go.  It would also mean weighing the coins is probably how most merchants bother to do their business.

[spawnloser]

Ever tried melting a rock?  WAY hard.  I can imagine it is possible, but unlikely.  It is far more likely that weight is how coins are standardized in Armageddon and that using a scale is how it would most easily be measured.

[Dracul]

Ever heard of a grand? In dollars....there still isn't a thousand dollar bill (american dollar as the reference)

I beleive the original poster might have meant a large and two smalls as a way of saying it, not as literally a large sid, two small sids. etc.

It's a way of expression.

[Angela Christine]

Ever tried melting a rock?  WAY hard.  I can imagine it is possible, but unlikely.  

Melting granite is hard, but obsidian is basically glass.  We melt glass all the time, well, not me personally, but, you know, people.  Most cheap glassware is made by melting and molding glass.  Look carefully and you can see the mold creases, these have to be filed off, but that is much less skilled work than precision carving.  

We know that there is some glass blowing going on somewhere, so the technology to evenly melt glass exists.  Molding is less skilled and less labour intensive then glass blowing since most of the work can be done by unskilled labour, so I assume molding also exits.  Maybe even a press, like the ones used to manufacture communion wafers.  


People have often wondered why you can't turn obsidian shards into obsidian coins using the stonecarving or jewelery making skills.  Molded coins would account for this in a way that carved coins does not.  If coins can be carved by slave artisans, they should also be carvable but anyone skilled at carving small bits of stone.  But if they are molded, then only someone with the ability to melt glass (or perhaps an exceptional artist) could counterfeit the coins.  Although if there is only one denomination of coin, counterfeiting probably isn't a huge problem anyway.

AC

[RideTheDivide]

From some really smart person's web page:

It has long been known that an obsidian with considerable water becomes fluid before the blowpipe at a rather low temperature but on continued heating it loses its water and thereafter can be made liquid only at a much higher temperature.

So we can assume that the "raw" obisidan might be melted and then shaped into coins that would - after having been heated and having shed some water - be very difficult to re-melt.

[spawnloser]

The difference, AC, is that obsidian is volcanic glass.  You pretty much have to get it to the temperature that it was at when molten.  Silicate glass, which is what you're thinking off, is made of softer stuff and melts at a much lower temperature, being less dense.  Obsidian would be difficult to get to the melting point.

[Jacques]

So we just need someone who decides to create a Krathi-stonecarver and they can be the perfect counterfitter? Sounds like an idea for someone's next character!  :twisted:

[Angela Christine]

From some really smart person's web page:

It has long been known that an obsidian with considerable water becomes fluid before the blowpipe at a rather low temperature but on continued heating it loses its water and thereafter can be made liquid only at a much higher temperature.

So we can assume that the "raw" obisidan might be melted and then shaped into coins that would - after having been heated and having shed some water - be very difficult to re-melt.

Cool.  So that's where all the water went!



Glass doesn't need to be melted, it is already a liquid.  If you can't generate heat you could instead just put the glass on top of the molds and wait millions of years for it to pour into the molds.    http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cfm?articleID=000E7305-705E-1C71-9EB7809EC588F2D7&catID=3&topicID=13


AC

[LazySpawN]

Well, considering that Zalanthas has little to no water, I doubt that much of the obsidian on the mud has much water in it.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Glass as a liquid vs. a solid is one of those amusing things that scientists and engineers argue over.  Ask a ChemE or an ME, and they may well tell you it's a solid.

[Foley]

what about blocks of obsidian? Sorry, I was just trying to think of something that would fit in a brief case, it'd be so cool if merchants and guild type people went around with leather and wood briefcases full of obsidian blocks or slabs. Maybe.

[Angela Christine]

The trouble with larger slabs or blocks of obsidian is that they would be easier and less expensive to counterfiet than the small coins.  And if a 100 coin value slab weighs the same as 100 coins (1 stone) but is easier to counterfiet, then what is the point?

Having pondered this long and hard, I've come up with what I believe is the ideal solution.  Of course no one will disagree with it's idealness, because as I have said before disagreeing with me can only lead to your destruction.  (Or possibly a difference of opinion).  The solution is gemstones.  The problem with gemstones is that shops don't accept them, and they can be hard to unload when you want to buy something.  

The solution: Nenyuk gem buyers.  Each bank gets a second NPC who only buys precious stones, and buys them for 80-90% of their objective value (as seen with the value command).  The NPC doesn't have to -sell- anything, he buys the gems and keeps them.  That way the House stores some of it's wealth in a form less fragile than glass coins.  At another level of interaction (ie. VNPCs) Nenyuk can sell or trade the precious stones with other wealthy Houses.  The NPC could sell them at 110% of their value, for people that want to store their wealth that way, but it is unnecessary.  They might only buy stones with a value of at least 100 'sid, so they don't get glutted with a bunch of cheap crystals.


This would create a market for high-end gemstones, giving miners and scavengers something else to shoot for.

And a velvet bag filled with diamonds and rubies would be really cool to carry around.


AC

[Dracul]

Aye, gemstones aren't a bad idea.

I think that your suggested percentages might be slightly lower, since the gemstones would be considered as liquidated wealth all on their own. Nenyuk would moreso have a small tax on it, rather than a huge profit similiar to the common merchanter ideal.

Are there actually enough precious stones in zalanthas to justify this? I wouldn't know...and it's probally even ic information anyways, even if pretty minor.

[Angela Christine]

You're right, a relatively small "transaction fee" might be more appropriate.

To work it would have to be like the Jal salt yard or the Templar mining office: you offer what you have, they tell you what they will pay, and that's it.  No bartering, this is what we'll pay, take it or leave it.  

AC

[Seeker]

Some good discussion points here.

Seeker

[Sir Diealot]

You did a thread necromancy.. to link to the beginning of the thread you raised from the dead?   :shock:   wtf, mate?

[Anael]

Seeker's a maaaagickerrr! Everybody run!  Run for your life, and your uneaten babies and...

I guess Seeker wanted to make a post in the other 'obsidian coins' thread

[Delirium]

I prefer the 'Seeker's a magicker' theory.  Burn him!

I think my opinion's already posted, but I'd like to be able to roleplay denominations.  It seems the most sensible alternative.

[Seeker]

:shock:   wtf, mate?

Anael's right.  I flat-out missed, and decided not to try a cheesy cover-up.  :roll:


I can't wait until one of you yahoos screws up.  Then the red sky will rain down humiliation upon you.  Especially Delirium.  Especially.


Seeker