Charge Skill

[Rindan]

I personally think that there is a good way to explain away why mounted combat is not so hot: Most Zalanthas animals are skittish.  So, let us say you have a big old kank.  A kank is easily the size of a horse and considering that it has an exoskeleton, probably much heavier.  You don't want this thing to step on you.  However, it has no horns or anything else that would suggest that it would naturally use charging as a defense.  Instead it has pincers that it can use in a pinch (ha ha, pun).  So, you have taken a herbivore hive animal and you tell it to charge into a group of noisy humans that are busy killing each other.  A kank might simply be too skittish to want to do it  In fact, once it is in combat and scared, it is far more likely to run like hell.  Even if you do manage to get it to charge (with the charge skill), realize that it has no horns or even a head shaped for ramming.  This is a creatures that is designed to bite.  So, maybe it can knock the wind out of you, but combined with the fact that it is skittish and simply not meant to charge, it isn't going to instantly kill anyone.

The same could be said for most Zalanthas mounts.  They simply could be skittish creatures that are impossible to really train to charge.  A good ranger can make do, but it might never have the fortitude of a Earth war horse that can merrily ride over men.  Think of it like trying to train a deer or a moose to be a war animal.  It simply might not be possible.  It isn't that a deer or a moose are physically incapable.  On the contrary, a moose as a war mount would be utterly terrifying.  You just can't train it to do it though.  So, one could assume that Zalanthas creatures are naturally skittish and finicky animals.  They are hard to train as mounts, and nearly impossible to train effectively for war.  You still might use a mount for war, but you probably are not going to use it the same way you use a horse.

Personally, I think it gives Zalanthas a neat flavor.  I like how the first thing everyone does when they meet the enemy is jump off their mount and charge forward into battle.  It gives combat in Zalanthas its own unique flavor.  I am more then happy to make rationalizations to keep Zalanthas unique in that way.

[EvilRoeSlade]

That doesn't make sense for all animals.  You know like... WAR beetles.  I think that the code should be much more forgiving to someone who is riding the right type of mount.  I'm not entirely sure whether it is or is not, though.

[Rindan]

A war beetle might very well be better the the rest of the animals, but that doesn't mean it is going to be up to Earth standards.  It might be nice if war beetles would offer better stats for riding in combat (and they might, I have no idea), but I think it is a minor point and one I am not going to lose sleep over.  Zalanthas beasts just suck at being ridden into combat.  It doesn't take a very large leap of faith to believe that they are just poor combat mounts.  If I can accept that there I can ride a multi-ton bug to begin with, I can accep that it is just a skittish little bastard.

[Kill4Free]

Im just gonna ignore tamarin, since he doesnt actually have any sort of argument, and all he does is try to say I dont have one.


As for mounts being skittish, that is possible, but I dont think a kank is a herbivor, as how would it chew plants with pincers the size of the ones it has.  It could rip something out, but unless it was a really really big leaf, it would have a hard time eating it.
Also, I have never known a kank to run away from a fight, the only times I saw them fight, they fought very well.
Also if you are good enough at riding to not have a mounted disadvantage, then one could say that you know how to control your mount well, so it wont shy away.
After all horses are herbivors, and in the wilds will run away at first sign of trouble, yet they can be trained.

Also the helpfiles arent really helpful in this situation, as it has several statements of how good some mounts are at combat, and yet there is nothing codely wise there to back it up.  Charge can be good, but it isnt as good as kick/bash/disarm overall, so even a master rider, will suffer an advantage compared to a walking warrior.

And realistically, how is something gonna hurt you bad when you are mounted, it would be nearly impossible to get an upper body hit on you if you are on the ground, compared to the fact that a mounted rider will nearly only get upper body hits on unmounted target.  Zalanthas isnt earth, but some basic rules of combat like these should still apply.

[Tamarin]

Im just gonna ignore tamarin, since he doesnt actually have any sort of argument, and all he does is try to say I dont have one.

I have come to the conclusion that you are blind.

If you would read my posts, you could see that I have a very clear argument.

It is as follows.

The current code supporting mounted combat is fine.  A mounted ranger with maxxed ride and charge can seriously fuck up a walking opponent, and that's the way it should be.

[Kill4Free]

from helpfiles

Sunback : In the wild, these long-necked lizards are scavengers and small-prey hunters that appear to be more docile, or more intelligent, cousins of the raptors. They are very maneuverable as mounts, but few have the strength, raw quickness, or lasting power of a kank. But, being hunters by nature, they tend to adapt better to mounted combat, the better trained among them able to tactically utilize their heavy tails like a great whip

War Beetle : These large, highly agressive insects are almost identical to ordinary beetles save in size. Covered in a thick chitin, typically ranging from dark browns to blacks, these beetles boast very powerful mandibles which can deliver hard bites. Though larger and slower than kanks, domesticated war beetles are prized by mercenaries and professional soldiers alike for their thicker shells and overall strength in combat. Large armies often employ units of riders mounted upon war beetles as heavy cavalry in battle.

Notice how it says highly agressive, doubt it would be skittish much.

Kank : These large insectoid creatures, not wholly unlike gigantic ants, are commonly used as beasts of burden for riding and packing. They are both strong and quick for their size, eat relatively little, tend to be hardy, and when food is plentiful and younglings nearby certain drones produce a highly nutritious honey on relatively little supplied water. In the wild they form loose clutches, but survive well independently

Like gigantic ants, ants dont really try to run from something, also if they survive well independently, considering how 'harsh' Zalanthas is, and assuming they dont run from the first sign of danger (I have never seen them run away from a PC once), one can assume they know how to fight.
Also if they didnt need to fight, they would have been built for speed, and they wouldnt have had so much of an exoskeleton to reduce its weight.

Gwoshi : Attacks on nomadic humans and elves have been reported, their large, clawed paws adding to their painful bite.

Doesnt sound skittish to me, if it goes out of its way to attack people.

and last of all

Erdlu : These flightless, usually featherless birds are sometimes employed as mounts by the lighter races of Zalanthas, although they cannot last great distances and are not particularly strong. They are, however, quite quick and eat relatively little compared even to kanks. Great care is taken in taming them, since they are capable of wreaking great damage in a fight. Despite this, their meat is usually very tender.

It says it is able to wreak great damage in a fight, and this being one of the smallest mounts, and the only one that flees.  One would think it could be used for combat, if trained a bit.


So even directly from the helpfiles, it says, or implies, that most mounts are able, and very capable, of fighting, and something that is quite deadly in a fight, probably wont be too skittish.

[Tamarin]

k4f, why am i getting the impression that we are arguing the same point?

[Kill4Free]

I dont think we are, you are arguing why charge is so good, I am arguing why there should be a mounted advantage with lots of types of mounts, as opposed to a disadvantage.

Also a warrior with bash as high as that ranger's ride, can take out any mounted ranger with ease.

[Armaddict]

You think there should be a mounted code advantage?

There is.

You need to be around awhile and learn how to use it.  Your sap who just learned to ride his kank without it being a bitch and not moving a week ago is not a master rider.  He's not going to be effective cavalry, just because he can move around mounted.

You're also thinking far too directly, as opposed to some -different- advantages.

I'd think less along the lines of 'mounted people should get combat bonuses so that they can kill more easily and everyone will start fighting mounted', and more along the lines of what being mounted -really- adds, as is.  Mobility...stamina...keep going.

[Kill4Free]

I meant a mounted advantage in fighting, not just walking around.  And mobility, it lowers it if anything, as even if ride is maxed for a ranger, it is still slightly worse then not being mounted.  Very very slightly, but it still isnt as good, I think it should be the opposite.
And obviously I know that some guy who just got a mount wont be good at it right away, how else would I know anything about the charge skill?

The mobility you speak of, is not in the fight, sure you can emote, running all around the room you are in, but that doesnt really help.
It might help when you want to flee, but it is easier to dismount, fight, then mount, then flee, then just flee on your own anyway.

[Armaddict]

You still aren't thinking in broad enough of terms.  I've used mounted fighting -very- effectively.

You, unfortunately, are too stuck on run;w;kill so and so

[Kill4Free]

You, unfortunately, are too stuck on run;w;kill so and so

How so?  As a matter of fact, I have never once done that, and as for using mounted fighting effectively, you can use fighting on your own feet just as effectively.

[Armaddict]

I'm not explaining any further.  I'm not about to give away tactics of mounted combat to everyone.

But that's exactly what cavalry always needed.  Tactics.

Not just mad bonuses to hit and to damage because they're higher.  They'd still get swamped, stuck, and mutilated by other soldiers without careful planning and logical thought.  Which you are exempting when you ask for obvious bonuses to mounted combat.

Trust me.  Mounted combat already has some very decisive advantages, to anyone who experiments a little with the strengths and weaknesses of being mounted.

[Kill4Free]

You can be just as decisive getting off your mount as well, and shooting from on top of a mount doesnt count as mounted combat, since you arent actually in combat.

[Armaddict]

com·bat   Audio pronunciation of "combat" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (km-bt, kmbt)
v. com·bat·ed, or com·bat·ted com·bat·ing, or com·bat·ting com·bats or com·bats
v. tr.

  1. To oppose in battle; fight against.
  2. To oppose vigorously; struggle against. See Synonyms at oppose.


Setting a -trap- counts as combat, my friend.

[Kill4Free]

We both know that isnt what we were discussing, as you dont even need to -fight- on the mount to do what you want to do, you just need to have a mount, and be able to ride it.

[Armaddict]

Okay.  Whatever you say.

I am backing out of this conversation.  But I will say that this has been brought up in the past, and without significant work IC, as well as some broader ways of thinking...I don't think you're going to get bonuses added to fighting riders.

I'm not an immortal, but that's just my opinion.

Peace.  Out.

[Kill4Free]

Ok, cya later.
Ideally I would like it the way it was where mounts had their own attack occasionally, even if it doesnt happen very often, it would be fun to emote around, and would also back up all the helpfile's statements.

[Tamarin]

I don't ever remember mounts having their own attacks.

[Kill4Free]

It wasnt really their own attacks, but they would help attack (alas very slowly) as a secondary fighter in combat, it was gotten rid of, because some guy found some sort of loophole to exploit it with I believe :/

[Tamarin]

So all you want is for mounts to do an extra attack, am I right?

[Kill4Free]

Basically yes
Even if they put some code in it so you couldnt hurt pcs/npcs, so it couldnt be exploited like it was before.

Like the gloves or bracers that give an extra attack, although a bit more damaging.

Like the sunback could whip its tail, like it says in the helpfules, the war beetle could gore targets, kank shouldnt get one as it isnt really a combat animal.  But an erldu could peck things, gwoshi could bite.  It would be consistent with what the helpfiles imply, and it would make it more fun to be mounted.

It doesnt have to be often, like it tries to attack once every 30 seconds or so with maxed ride, and it will attack less often if your ride is lower.
I think that would be reasonable.

[Kill4Free]

Now that I think about it, it would also help fix the problem that kanks are too good compared to everything else, if kanks were one of the few, that didnt do anything.

[Tamarin]

Basically yes
Even if they put some code in it so you couldnt hurt pcs/npcs, so it couldnt be exploited like it was before.

So...you just want it to automatically emote?  Because if it can't hurt pcs and npcs (ie other players and stuff you hunt, for the most part), then it's totally useless.  You can just emote it yourself.

[Kill4Free]

No I mean it will be able to hurt beasts and stuff, I meant it wouldnt attack dwarves/elves/humans/HG's/half-elves, it would be cool if it did, but I could see how someone could exploit that part of it :/
Or even if it just couldnt attack PC's.