Charge Skill

[Twilight]

So, I was wondering about the charge skill.  You get your mounting running at something, and knock it over.  Great.  But right now it just seems like another way to bash, when it could be a bit more.

What do people think about adding in directional functionality?  So, for example, you could charge tregil north.  I would envision that if you did that, it would first set your mount to running.  Your mount would then run north, charging the critter.  For most things, I guess this wouldn't be that useful, but for fleeing creatures...at that point if you fail your charage, the critter flees.  If you don't fail your charge, a further check of the critter's speed vs your mount speed and your charge skill vs the critter's flee skill is done.  If you fail, the critter still flees.  If you don't fail, the critter is knocked to the ground instead of fleeing.

I see this basically as a way to run something down.  As most fleeing critters seem to be small, running them down on your mount would seem to me a possibly effective strategy, moreso than running after them until their movement points drop to zero would suggest.

[Username]

AFAIK, each room - at least, outdoors - is equivalent of between a mile and a league in distance.

...a mile being 5333 cords and a league equalling three miles

I can't envision someone charging their mount at top speed for a mile, or two, or three, just to try knock someone over.  That'd leave your mount exhausted.  It seems more reasonable to keep it limited to the immediate area.

[Dan]

What if both people are on the edges of both rooms? Closer to each other. Not everyone is in the middle of an outdoors room at all times. It is all how you rp it.

[UnderSeven]

Carru do it, the charging people into other rooms.. So.. a president has been set that it's apparently possible.

[Trenidor]

AFAIK, each room - at least, outdoors - is equivalent of between a mile and a league in distance.

...a mile being 5333 cords and a league equalling three miles

I can't envision someone charging their mount at top speed for a mile, or two, or three, just to try knock someone over.  That'd leave your mount exhausted.  It seems more reasonable to keep it limited to the immediate area.

Actually, if you set your mount to run, you can run several rooms before it tireing, so I don't that that this charge function would make much difference to that.

[jhunter]

I agree that something should be done to the charge skill so that it's not just another guild's version of bash.

[Anonymous]

I agree that something should be done to the charge skill so that it's not just another guild's version of bash.

I dunno.  I like charge exactly the way it is.  It's not as beefy as bash, and comes at a higher risk.

[jhunter]

jhunter wrote:
I agree that something should be done to the charge skill so that it's not just another guild's version of bash.


I dunno. I like charge exactly the way it is. It's not as beefy as bash, and comes at a higher risk.

Right...not as beefy as bash...yet you are using a beast many times larger than most humanoids to do it...and it comes with more risk.

I think it should be a bit stronger than a bash from your average humanoid warrior.

As someone else said, there are beasts that can knock you an entire league with a bash.

[SpyGuy]

Charge as it stands is just repetition of a skill in a different form.  I like this idea alot, take away charge's bash aspects (which jhunter points out are a little unrealistic) and put in something that will help with hunting, etc.  I like this idea alot, maybe even as an addition enable lances or something of the like (spears, etc.) to be able to be braced and do extra damage when you use them combined with charging into another room.

Seems to me to make mounted combat still useful, more unique and a little bit more accurate.

[jhunter]

Maybe change it so that charge is more like a ride by attack.

You must have a weapon wielded, you must have a target within the same room or up to one room away...so you could charge "critter" north

If it's in another room you'd move the proper direction...charging toward the target...if successful, you land an extra powerful hit (due to your increased momentum) continuing that direction into the room on the other side.

If unsuccessful, you pass it by, missing your target.

A critical failure would be that you miss and your mount throws you, also that the target would then attack in defense of itself.

Maybe something like that. *shrugs*

[jstorrie]

It sounds nice, but...

...do the proper saddles and riding equipment exist in Zalanthas to keep you on your mount if you do a charging strike at something?

It'd be nice if you could charge in and strike something with your mount, I guess, but jousting-style mounted cavalry charges seem unrealistic.  Besides, half the fun of hunting is tracking down those damned auto-fleers.

[Twilight]

I was thinking the current way, in which your mount knocks something over, only being able to charge at something a little further away.  Not so much a cavalry charge, but more like running something to the ground.

[jhunter]

I still say with it being that way...it should have the potential to do more damage.

As it is it's really unrealistic that a kank slamming into someone at a charge and trampling over them doesn't do anymore than a human warrior bashing them with their shield.

[Dan]

The stun damage is substantially higher. I've knocked out an animal on a single charge before.

[jhunter]

Okay, still doesn't change the fact that the overall damage should be higher.

Getting trampled by an animal many times your size is going to fuck you up, broken bones and shit most likely.

[Teleri]

jstorrie wrote:

...do the proper saddles and riding equipment exist in Zalanthas to keep you on your mount if you do a charging strike at something?

I'm sure there are saddles, since I have seen saddlebags in the game before.  However, I doubt these are of the sort that would keep you in place once you hit something on your mount.  Just basically a pad of toughened leather or strapped-down blanket.  

I have seen it written before that the stirrup does not exist in the game, which is really the advance in our world which allowed for cavalry to play major roles in battle.  Without that loop of metal (hence why it isn't found in the game), the rider would be less balanced in the saddle and thus very likely to be thrown off his horse after charging into something.  

BTW, I don't like the idea of lances and jousting and whatnot entering into this game.  That's more of a western RL thing from ages past (and the knights had the stirrup to brace themselves, which we don't) which doesn't at all fit into the game world.  I could see a hit and run saber swipe or that tactic of charging past and shooting arrows backwards (forgot the people who first did that).  However, jousting would be too out of place.

[creeper386]

Wow, stirrups are only made out of metal? That's interesting ... I'm sorry, but I DOUBT that things aren't that advanced. They'd HAVE to find a way to secure themselves to their mounts. Maybe not a saddle and stirrups but it's not that advanced for some sort of riding harness. I mean, they AREN'T riding horses. Most mounts in the game wouldn't work with a modern saddle/stirrup idea. Or even really an older saddle.

But, most likely there is still a way to secure one to ones mount. Otherwise, I don't see how it'd be even possible to STAY on one. Just a blanket or piece of leather wouldn't keep you in place on a shell.


Creeper

[jhunter]

And still...nowhere can I find where it says there are no stirrups on Zalanthan saddles.

If anyone can find such documentation please let me know.

[Rindan]

And still...nowhere can I find where it says there are no stirrups on Zalanthan saddles.

If anyone can find such documentation please let me know.

And still...nowhere can I find where it says there are no stirrups on Zalanthan saddles.

If anyone can find such documentation please let me know.

There is also no documentation stating that there are not nuclear weapons.

The stirrup is a relatively modern invention.  The world existed for thousands of years with people riding horses without anyone thinking to throw a loop on the bottom of a saddle for the feat.  The romans, whose civilization I would say surpasses those of Zalanthas, did not have the stirrup.  It is entirely possible that Zalanthas has not developed the stirrup either.

Further, there is a difference between fighting atop a mount and simply riding on it.  In order to fight atop a mount you need a way to be able to basically throw your weight and the weight of the animal you are riding into a swing.  If you can't do that, you are going to be on your back the second your weapon meets any resistance.  If you tried to use a lance without a stirrup, the first idiot to put anything in your way is going to send you on your back.  If you even tried to use a sword without a stirrup you are not going to be fighting to any advantage.  You are in fact going to be fighting at a disadvantage as you can't use the momentum of your body to swing and if you swing too hard you will find yourself on your back.  There is a very good reason why the Greek and Roman armies did not have the terrifying calvary that was seen during the middle ages.

More to the point, the code is pretty clear about the issue.  If you fight atop a mount and you are not a master rider, you are going to be fighting on your back in the dirt on short order.  The code states pretty clearly in my opinion that you are riding without a stirrup or any other device that would give you the leverage to effectively fight atop a mount.  I fail to see how anyone can argue what the code makes crystal clear.

As to the original topic of the charge skill, I don't ever want to see it become some uber powerful skill.  Mounted fighting is suppose to be suck for most and be difficult for the rest, that goes triple if you are riding a pack animal into combat (read as kank).  Just because something is relatively big doesn't make it a powerful war animal.  I wouldn't want to ride a cow or donkey into battle even though it is much bigger then I am.  Some animals are meant for war, others are meant for carrying large objects over long distances.  If a ranger wants a deadly war animal, great, but it shouldn't be the same animal that he rides across the known world without resting.

If true war animals are feeling a bit underpowered, then I wouldn't mind seeing it get tweaked, but if the complaining is because a newbie ranger isn't able to take out Mek's atop his kank, I am less then sympathetic.

[jhunter]

The stirrup is a relatively modern invention. The world existed for thousands of years with people riding horses without anyone thinking to throw a loop on the bottom of a saddle for the feat. The romans, whose civilization I would say surpasses those of Zalanthas, did not have the stirrup. It is entirely possible that Zalanthas has not developed the stirrup either.

This is on Earth...many things about Zalanthas are WAY different than on Earth.

More to the point, the code is pretty clear about the issue. If you fight atop a mount and you are not a master rider, you are going to be fighting on your back in the dirt on short order. The code states pretty clearly in my opinion that you are riding without a stirrup or any other device that would give you the leverage to effectively fight atop a mount. I fail to see how anyone can argue what the code makes crystal clear.

This is simply untrue, even with stirrups an unskilled rider can easily be thrown just trying to maneuver the animal...stirrups are not a guarantee that you will be able to stay on if you don't know what your doing.

I do know quiet a bit about riding, I'm from Montana and have been raised around horses my entire life.

[SwanSwanHummingbird]

It does seem that mounted combat is pretty weak, even for a master rider with the charge skill on a war-animal.  It's still better to just be on foot in most cases.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I'd say that considering that bash is an almost useless skill for failing to do what the helpfiles promise it does, then charge is going to be that much worse.  I love bash nonetheless, just for the thrill of shoving your opponent to the ground through pure brute strength.

Charge on the other hand, I would say never makes sense to use.  And if there aren't any situations to use a skill, why even have it?

[Ghost]

... the code is pretty clear about the issue.  If you fight atop a mount and you are not a master rider, you are going to be fighting on your back in the dirt on short order.  The code states pretty clearly in my opinion that you are riding without a stirrup or any other device that would give you the leverage to effectively fight atop a mount.  

If you are not a master rider, stirrup or not stirrup, saddle or not saddle, you are going to be fighting on your back.  I know how to ride IRL.  I have had the experience.  But give me a sword or a lance, and I wll show you how to fall off the saddle even with a stirrup.

And I do believe, people should have something to stay on the mounts, if they are riding an insect.  There are some riders, who can stay on the mounts thorough all the fight.  No matter how good a rider they are,, they can not stay on a piece of naked shell while fighting for their lives.  

For the mount types.  Yes kanks can be considered pack animals.  And may be an erdlu is not a heavy cavalry mount either.  But there is the issue of War beetles.  I dont know have you checked how much strength a beetle might have.  Well I have witnessed many beetles, and I know if someone charges me with one of them, I am pretty sure that I will be fucked up a way much more than a human warrior's slamming me with a shoulder or a shield.

Well.. The topic is going to some other arguements here.  Twilight made a point and I totally agree, that is, you should be able to charge people from a league or a few leagues away.  Ride by attack suggestion might be a little hard to put into the game, but maybe some added damage might be good at all.

[Dan]

I think your all underestimating the capabilities of a highly-skilled charger. Things aren't as bleak as you people make them out to be. Charge is a powerful skill and it isn't as much of a bash clone as it is being made out as.

[Rindan]

And I do believe, people should have something to stay on the mounts, if they are riding an insect.  There are some riders, who can stay on the mounts thorough all the fight.  No matter how good a rider they are,, they can not stay on a piece of naked shell while fighting for their lives.

It is called a saddle.  The saddle was invented long before the stirrup.  One does not demand the other.  I don't think anyone was suggesting that people ride atop insects on their bare shells.  What was suggested is that the essential piece of equipment to fight as effectively atop a mount as people want is missing.

This is on Earth...many things about Zalanthas are WAY different than on Earth.

The fact that Zalantahs is not Earth is a moot point.  That just means that they either could or could not have the stirrup.  Seeing as how I have never seen one, never seen a description even suggest one, and that with only a few exceptions fighting is done on foot, I would say it is a pretty good assumption that they don't exist.

Further, to be even more blunt about what the code says, a ranger with absolutely perfect riding skills is at best the same as a ranger with the same combat skills standing on the ground.  In other words, even the best mounted warrior does not get an inherent combat advantage, which spells out very clearly that the stirrup does not exist.  If a ranger is going to get any sort of advantage from being atop his mount it is the fact that he is more maneuverable on a tactical level (running and chasing) or because the mount itself is some how participating in the battle through charging or some other script.

The simple point is that mounted combat on Zalanthas is not king and is not meant to be.  It has its advantages, but they are not in raw brute power.  A ranger atop his mount is a scary thing, but not because he can ride into a pack of warriors and kill them all without being dismounted.  The advantage is that if the ranger can separate the people on the ground with their own mounts, which is a much easier task when you can fight from a mount, he can basically walk circles around them and attack at a distance at his leisure.

Zalanthas has its own unique take on mounted combat that is different from medieval Earth.  This is a good thing.  A mounted warrior is a quick thinking mans warrior who might be able to fight up close, but more likely just wants to stay out of range and do hit and runs.  I have no desire to see it changed such that a ranger just needs to type 'mount kank' to suddenly be bad ass at hand to hand combat.