An extrerem proposal

[My 2 sids]

My (extreme) solution to issues... close all mega-merchant houses.   :shock:

Ok, do I still have your attention?  Done laughing at the idea?  Let me try to expand on this.  I've tried to address some of the issues being addressed in many of the threads as well as listed a few other reasons I see closed mega-merchant houses as a real possibility and good thing for the game.

1.  People have started to say they like the idea of being able to have more independent and small group pcs, but feel overwhelmed by what it would take to do so.
If one has friends, knows people (think pc), who are independent they will be more likely to try and buy from them, resulting in a more pc driven economy (as far as pc lives go) where as before you might know a friend (pc) who could get you a good deal at kadius.  
Staff now have more opprounity to divote more time to the smaller groups and independents.  Not running so much as providing other things like opportunities:  vnpc sid, rpt (maybe trips between cities/tribes), interact with more npcs, etc.  and have the TIME to work with people:  time to watch and give feedback or karma, time to notice small, pc-driven plotlines, etc.

2.  Worry over an already thinly stretched pc population
My idea eliminates this by keeping all pcs together (different clans, but as a whole they are all on the same level) Think of how pc markets could rise if there were actually five to ten pc booths set up at the bazaar!  
More thought going into craftable items could result in a ton of more changes to the world:  more items, more ideas, more skills.

3. The idea of harshness and want for more conflict
Having to rely on making enough sid for water, food, shelter, etc makes the world more harsh. BUT, with all the other opportunities (people working together to pool resources and teach skills, more money from pcs, a bit of help by Imms) it is able to be done!  
Conflict (like harshness) would be balanced enough OOCly that people could really have fun IC ly:  there would be tons of conflict, but it wouldn't be mega-Imm driven and (pc wise) it would not be mega vs little guy.  

Also, it would also shift the player base and how they relate to each other and to the rest of the world.  There would now be a CLEAR line between the conflicts and issues of nobility and of the pc merchants. Sure, some merchants may make it big time, but never enough to actually get into the same league as the nobility.  This also means the nobility clans would not loose characters to merchant houses.  
The type of conflict with "little people" (instead of refined mega-merchant houses) would be different.  More street rumbles, rudeness, bar fights, small plots not requiring 8,000 sid and 20 years to see out, and more perm. results. (Just like death in Arm)  With in the player base, the interaction would change too.  I forget where, but Bestatte gave an excellent look at how a merchant might need to hire a ranger, or maybe a small, less expensive, thug group than the byn.  

Sorry for the long post and I realize that this is no where near the formal thought needed to be given to such a dramatic change, but I'd like to see if people are open to the possibility.

Also, this is in no means to reflect on mega-merchant houses' players or Imms.  It's simply an idea on how to switch around the player base in game.

[Cuusardo]

The big merchant houses wouldn't go down like that.

[SwanSwanHummingbird]

Less extreme solution: merge Salarr and Kadius.  But, make sure to call it Kadius, since Kadius is better.     You could call is Salarius or Kadlarr maybe too.

[My 2 sids]

The big merchant houses wouldn't go down like that.
Less extreme solution: merge Salarr and Kadius.

Um... is everyone aware when I say "close" I mean close it to PCs (like Fale and all the other "closed" clans).  They would still be there... still a shop to buy all our clothes, still would even buy back items... but all done virtual.

[Anonymous]

Independent PCs will never provide the sort of continuity that the merchant houses do.  The only way for them to do that is to grow into larger virtual organizations.  Then you are back at square one.

What's more, the merchant houses represent almost 100% of the inter-citystate traffic in this game at this point.

Either way, maybe it's just something happening in a region far away from me, but I've yet to see an independent merchant who even makes a dent in a large merchant house's income.  I don't understand the sudden rush of concern over them.

[jmordetsky]

I still say close, merge a few (not all) of them. Even some of the nobles houses, (note: where applicable and considered in excess)

Then if house IMMs put limits on hiring, the indy crowd would swell.

[Larrath]

Merging the Houses (merchant or noble), to me, sounds like a bad idea.

Say that House Kadius and House Salarr decide to team up.  Or Salarr and Kurac.  Or Nenyuk and Kadius...you'll just have a complete superpower walking around, doing whatever they want.

This is even truer for Noble Houses...what happens if Houses Jal and Sath decide to team up?  Does House Sjalth suddenly become a top tier House?  It makes no sense that _two_ Houses with shared fundings and influence will remain in the bottom, and I can't see House Fale dropping into the low tier, either.

It _is_ possible to direct more people into those Commoner Houses simply by using openings...one Tenneshi less, one Borsail less, two Commoners more, and eventually traffic everyone into these Houses while quietly closing down the Nobility.

However, I like things the way they are...and while I am sure as hell not going to ask you to not change something that works, the excellent idea that is Commoner Houses might want to wait for another time and place.

[Seeker]

I think that all the ideas -for- the change have merit, but I just don't think that the restricting the current clans is necessary to do it.

Players have a lot more freedom in the game than most realize, I think.  Just start those small organizations yourself, and make then fun and interesting.  That is all it will take.

PCs naturally shift to where fun things are happening.  Has always been that way.  If you get an awesome character who starts PC run "Clan X", in two or three months, "Clan X" has three awesome characters.  If "Clan X" is intriquing and fun to watch, "Clan X" attracts IMM attention and support.

Just read Flurry's signature.


Seeker

[sarahjc]

It would have to be Salaruis.. Not only does it sound better..

Salarr -is- better..

Either way, To answer the posters original idea. I don't like it for a few reasons.

1. It would be much more work for the imm's.  Think about having to keep track of 10 to 12 small merchant houses instead of just three. Of course your shop would want a rotating inventory of goods, custom works done. Special Orders placed, Projects..and plots. I think that, plus the nobal houses would just be a bit too much. Though you may think that it would give the Imm's a break from watching over us.  They actually -like- to watch over us. At least my Imm's do.

2. The PC population is thin now. You need at least two or three PC's to run a shop properly. And at the cost of even 6-9 PC run shops per each city, you would be thinning the P-base more than it already is.

3. Commitment. I mean yeah, if you want to chip wood in the middle of the a ditch somewhere and sell people little boats, that’s fine, but don't call yourself a merchant house. To set up a real working operation you would need, capital to purchase or rent the property. Your own NPC Merchant to stand at the counter, a NPC/PC guard to stand at the counter, unless you wanted to, PC hunters for supplies, or you would have to pay independents, which can get expensive. A Merchant of some type to sell goods, and someone who is good at crafting. Sure some of these chores can be spilt. But with NPC (and Imm) help, this is possible. All these people need, food water and shelter as well. It's an undertaking to say the least, not un-doable. But not easy either.

4. Drive of the PC base to take on this kind of effort. I have played a Merchant PC.  And though a good experience. It is a lot of work and I don’t think that I would do it again. Not for a very long time. Being any kind of leader, even on a small scale is a big to do, you are now, no longer responsible for just your PC and your choices now reflect the PC's you support.

5. Too much conflict can lead to chaos. If you can name the head person in all four merchant houses and the Byn in your city right now, I'll tip my hat to you.  This isn't secret information, but these people do rotate and they do it often. Sometimes just figuring out who is the Merchant Kadian can be hard. Now throw a bunch of Cut throat smaller Clan PC's in there, who will most likely get into scuffles over who is selling cheaper arrows. You would have a bit too much turnover I think and a lot of people not knowing who is selling what.

Anyway these are just my views on it. I think if you want conflict on a smaller scale. It can be done, but it should be on an individual basis.  The Merchant houses that are in place now meet the needs of the PC base. I think it should be a bit easier for a small start up. But I don't think you should kill off the Big 3.

[Rindan]

I think that the game world needs stable imm run clans.  These clans are the bread and butter that enforce reality and smoothly drive plots forward.  Player run clans are capable of this, but they require the force of will of a strong leader and a little luck to pull it off.  You need imm run clans to provide a clear structure, reality enforcement, and leadership continuity.  So, if one day the merchant houses were to close (to PCs) I would hope that they would be quickly replaced by smaller clans that would serve basically the same continuity, but just focus on a smaller scale and lower class world.

I think that the idea of harshness is the best reason to change the scale of clans that are open.  You could pick up all of the merchant houses and noble houses, plop them down into the fertile fields of some high fantasy kingdom, and with a few exceptions could transplant their entire being with just a few changes.  House Tor or House Kadius could easily exists in any other generic fantasy game with rich nobles, rich merchants, and well paid employees.  The desperation that represents Zalanthas does not exists with these houses, and only the struggles they fight with themselves has any real meaning to them.

I think that these clans should be enforcers of harshness, but not actually populated by PCs.  

Consider the Allanaki militia.  They enforce the law.  People generally avoid committing crimes within lawful zones because they realize that the militia will react, and that goes triple if they think an imm is watching and will really make them react.  You don't need PCs for that role.  PCs of course exists and they add something valuable, but if they were to vanish over night (and they have on occasion after HRPTS) the same general order would prevail.  Armed thugs would not take over the streets of Allanak and most people would still feel reasonably safe walking from the Barrel to the Bazaar.  No one would get it in their mind that if they kill all the NPCs then that will mean they own the city.

I would like to see merchant and noble houses be used in a similar manner.  Instead of having House Kadius armed with PCs ready to crush or assimilate each and every independent crafter, or having House Kurac stomp on every small time spice smuggler, let the houses sit idle until they are needed.  If someone is rising above their station, then bring out the proper house to do the proper crushing.  Commoner houses and merchanting organizations do not either succeed or fail as CRW suggests.  They hit an equilibrium point and stay there.  A commoner house might very well have a great deal of respect within the common quarters, but they will always be stepped on and crushed by a noble houses before they even begin to rise that high.  Kurac is unlikely to send a dozen ninja magiker assassins against the local spice dealer, but they will send in an appropriate force long before he forms a cartel that controls all spice in Allanak and Red Storm.

You can have organizations that are both successful and not massive simply because if they become too successful they will be crushed by the absolutely overwhelming forces that control the world.  Keeping just below the raider might very well be an important part of such organizations, and it might be that on occasion one needs to get cut in half by a bigger organization to keep them from turning into another major merchant or noble house.  That isn't a bad thing.  These smaller organizations could very well exist, be under imm control, and if things ever got out of hand the imms could simply flip the dues ex machina switch and send down a real house to cut them down into a more reasonable size.

[My 2 sids]

What's more, the merchant houses represent almost 100% of the inter-citystate traffic in this game at this point.  

Right.  But I'm not trying to say let's change the entire economy of the game, I'm saying the small part of the economy that's in the our little PC's world.  Just like whenever possible people try to ask for PC guards/aides/cooks/merchants/etc.  I'm also running on the idea that just because the merchant houses have a monopoly of say 95%, there are still many many people in that slim 5% of independents.  For an example, think of all the other little npc tents/shops/blankets in the bazaar all that are NOT owned by the merchant houses.  

It would be much more work for the imm's. Think about having to keep track of 10 to 12 small merchant houses instead of just three. Of course your shop would want a rotating inventory of goods, custom works done. Special Orders placed, Projects..and plots. I think that, plus the nobal houses would just be a bit too much. Though you may think that it would give the Imm's a break from watching over us. They actually -like- to watch over us. At least my Imm's do.  

But by closing the merchant houses that alone would add (according to website at this time) five FULL TIME Imms to handle things.  And although they would offer a ton of help (esp. at the start) it would not be fully responsible like with the merchant houses.  And I didn't say give them a break from watching... I said they would have MORE time to watch.  People would also have to go to the merchant shops if they want a huge rotating inventory or need custom work.  Again, I'm not trying to wipe out the merchant houses... just the pc involvement with them.  

Commitment. I mean yeah, if you want to chip wood in the middle of the a ditch somewhere and sell people little boats, that's fine, but don't call yourself a merchant house. To set up a real working operation you would need, capital to purchase or rent the property. Your own NPC Merchant to stand at the counter, a NPC/PC guard to stand at the counter, unless you wanted to, PC hunters for supplies, or you would have to pay independents, which can get expensive. A Merchant of some type to sell goods, and someone who is good at crafting. Sure some of these chores can be spilt. But with NPC (and Imm) help, this is impossible. All these people need, food water and shelter as well. It's an undertaking to say the least, not un-doable. But not easy either.

Maybe I didn't get things clear but I'm not picturing huge shops, or even anything like what happened with the Atrium and Bakery.  I'm thinking more along the lines that most are individuals or maybe someone with a partner or two who clear out a spot for a mat at the bazaar or hang out trying to meet customers at the taverns.  These are the same things independent merchants do now, but it would just be more opportunity for them to do such.  

You need imm run clans to provide a clear structure, reality enforcement, and leadership continuity.

Consider the Allanaki militia. They enforce the law. ... I would like to see merchant and noble houses be used in a similar manner. Instead of having House Kadius armed with PCs ready to crush or assimilate each
and every independent crafter, or having House Kurac stomp on every small time spice smuggler, let the houses sit idle until they are needed.

Exactly.  For independent merchants to ever have a true chance in game (for more people to get involved with independent merchants, as many posters from other threads say they want to) we are going to need Imm support.  That could come from the Imms who used to work over the merchant houses, who now work with the players who want merchant pcs (I'm not including merchant house family as I figure most of them would drift into the nobility or other clans)

What I'm trying to propose isn't to change the entire economy (the docs) but rather provide the stability that would be needed so more people feel free to make not only independent characters, but independent characters that can have an actual impact on the game.  And I believe the ideas expressed by Seeker can only happen if there is a bit more support and stability for independents.  

btw, sorry about the Subject typo. :oops:

[ShaLeah]

There are plently of things out there where a merchant can make a Byn latrine worth of 'sid without stepping on the toes of The Great Houses. Overwhelming? How easy do we want things? If a lowly merchant rises above the tyrany and monopoly of the larger merchant houses then they will last, step on their toes and they will not last.  I have watched PCs get up there, some get up there and suceed, some get up there and piss in the wrong set of breakfast breads. I'd be very disappointed if the Great Houses were lost.

ShaLeah
-who votes an adamant, resounding Hellfuckno...

[wizturbo]

Um....no

[EvilRoeSlade]

There are plently of things out there where a merchant can make a Byn latrine worth of 'sid without stepping on the toes of The Great Houses. Overwhelming? How easy do we want things? If a lowly merchant rises above the tyrany and monopoly of the larger merchant houses then they will last, step on their toes and they will not last.

I don't think you truly understand the proposition.  

Nobody doubts that you can make money as an independant merchant.  I have never played an independant merchant, so I personally won't question it.

Nobody doubts that the merchant houses will make sure that their competition never rises to their level.  And nobody wants to change this.

What we want is small-scale conflict.  We want merchants that deal with the bottom rungs of society.  Battles that anybody with the knowledge and ability can put their hand into, or sell their services for.  We want the real Armageddon.  What we don't want is people who have never seen the "you are thirsty" message having a battle that most people are unaware of, where there is never any clear victor, the only resolution possible is a truce, and the effects of the conflict won't last beyond the deaths of the characters involved.  Because that isn't the way conflict should be.

Why is it that we feel things should be different?  I personally think its time for a change of place.  I think we need to begin to explore roles that are difficult to pull off currently, things being as they are.  Such as an unaffiliated mercenary who acts as an illegal thug and extortionist.  An elven merchant whose business in leather goods is merely a coverup for a spice operation.  Or a magicker who bestows curses for anyone who is willing to pay her arcane and terrible price.

I don't want independant clans without immortal support, and I don't think anybody else really does.  What we need is clans that do have immortal support just like the current clans do, the difference being that the characters in these clans don't have free and indefinite food and water.  Instead, their actions mean either sustenance or dehydration every day.  Instead, they forced to fight with each other as they compete for resources.

[EvilRoeSlade]

1. It would be much more work for the imm's.  Think about having to keep track of 10 to 12 small merchant houses instead of just three. Of course your shop would want a rotating inventory of goods, custom works done. Special Orders placed, Projects..and plots. I think that, plus the nobal houses would just be a bit too much. Though you may think that it would give the Imm's a break from watching over us.  They actually -like- to watch over us. At least my Imm's do.

What about having to keep track of three small merchant houses?  Or if you want to get fancy, two in each city-state.

2. The PC population is thin now. You need at least two or three PC's to run a shop properly. And at the cost of even 6-9 PC run shops per each city, you would be thinning the P-base more than it already is.

The PC population is growing.  If it is thin, then its because there are too many unnecessary, boring, and largely repetitive clans.  However, your concern is irrelevant.  Our playerbase is a resource.  If we want to put that resource in say... smaller clans, than all we have to do is take that very same resource out of larger clans.

As for shops, a small merchant clan wouldn't need PCs to run them anymore than a large merchant house does.  A small merchant clan wouldn't even NEED shops.  They could just as easily deal entirely on a PC to PC basis.  Stop people on the streets.  Peddle your wares in taverns.  Again, your concern is unfounded.

3. Commitment. I mean yeah, if you want to chip wood in the middle of the a ditch somewhere and sell people little boats, that's fine, but don't call yourself a merchant house. To set up a real working operation you would need, capital to purchase or rent the property. Your own NPC Merchant to stand at the counter, a NPC/PC guard to stand at the counter, unless you wanted to, PC hunters for supplies, or you would have to pay independents, which can get expensive. A Merchant of some type to sell goods, and someone who is good at crafting. Sure some of these chores can be spilt. But with NPC (and Imm) help, this is possible. All these people need, food water and shelter as well. It's an undertaking to say the least, not un-doable. But not easy either.

Again, there would be immortal support.  And also, these wouldn't be merchant houses.  They'd be more like small businesses run by an ordinary family of commoners.  That being said, all your concerns are IC.  Yes, the players of these clans would indeed struggle IC.  That's the point.

4. Drive of the PC base to take on this kind of effort. I have played a Merchant PC.  And though a good experience. It is a lot of work and I don't think that I would do it again. Not for a very long time. Being any kind of leader, even on a small scale is a big to do, you are now, no longer responsible for just your PC and your choices now reflect the PC's you support.

Nobody is asking you to play a merchant PC.  This could create countless openings for troubleshooters, mercenaries, hired killers, thugs, wastelanders, and other people that don't mind getting dust on them.

5. Too much conflict can lead to chaos. If you can name the head person in all four merchant houses and the Byn in your city right now, I'll tip my hat to you.  This isn't secret information, but these people do rotate and they do it often. Sometimes just figuring out who is the Merchant Kadian can be hard. Now throw a bunch of Cut throat smaller Clan PC's in there, who will most likely get into scuffles over who is selling cheaper arrows. You would have a bit too much turnover I think and a lot of people not knowing who is selling what.

Not at all.  The immortals would still be in charge of the clans.  They could still use their NPCs and VNPCs to smack down the hand of justice if the clan is going in a direction they don't want.  They could have their clan be destroyed if they chose to, or allow the players in it to destroy it (unlike the present situation), but they certainly wouldn't have to.

[/quote=sarahjc"]Anyway these are just my views on it. I think if you want conflict on a smaller scale. It can be done, but it should be on an individual basis.  The Merchant houses that are in place now meet the needs of the PC base. I think it should be a bit easier for a small start up. But I don't think you should kill off the Big 3.[/quote]

Actually, the Merchant houses that are in place now mainly just give the PC base cool custom gear.  I don't think their absence would cause the world to end.  They need to be at the very least cut down to make room for small-scale clans, and if the conversion was done correctly, these new clans would serve the needs of a new playerbase.

[creeper386]

Long Answer:

Nope.

[My 2 sids]

I thank everyone who has responded thus far, including those who have taken the time to explain why they don't like this idea.  I think EvilRoeSlade has explained things much better than I have, and I'm thankful.  We've spent a great deal of time perfecting and tweaking issues of high class (nobility/clanned houses) and warrior type pcs... now I'd like to see some work done on those other pcs who want to go independent in their businesses and who want the more small-scale conflicts.  The harshness and uncertainty of starting up small clans or independent pcs should be an IC issue, not because of OOC setbacks such as unreasonable starting costs (by the time one actually gets the chance to work up their skills enough to be profitable, and by... I don't want to say lack of help... but not having the direct assistance of any Imms.)  Once again, these are just some ideas.  
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXxXXXXXXXXXXXX
Although, I still don't see the need for anything huge or everyone having their own shop/npc I could see where having a place to sell items, craft, and store items might be nice.  It would be too much work OOCly to try and put in a lot of new stores and cost PCs too much to rent them, the idea of a flea or farmers' market came to mind. OOCly putting in one building/room and then dividing it into a number of "stalls".  

For around 100-400 sids or so each would-be merchant can rent a "stall" in the pavilion.  IC ly they would be paying for cheap to very nice stalls (the nicer being closer to the entrance, a bigger/nicer stall, and more security).  OOCly they would actually be getting a key to a locked chest or cabinet (price based mostly on how much storage/what type of storage and how good of lock).

>you enter a crowded selling floor
>Torches and fresh paint of jade and green line the walls of this huge pavilion.  The floor has been well swept and for the most part everything looks rather clean and orderly.  A few cuts have been made in the ceiling, allowing for tarp-covered windows to be opened on nice days; a fresh, open-air market feeling sweeping in. Near the entrance are large, fine stalls with lavish draperies and many goods.  Towards the far end, vagabonds have laid out simple blankets on which to hawk their items.  (for pcs who don't want to rent but still like to be able to open up shop where pcs can find them)
A few slaves roam up and down the pavilion; running errands, cleaning spills, and patrolling for would-be troublemakers.  People from almost all ranges of class roam around:  gathering supplies, buying their daily goods, and conversing.  Sellers cry their prices, trying to entice their next buyer to the seller's own stall.
(all that is really loaded then are lockable cabinets and chests, maybe some benches or something.)
>The well dress apprentice hawks her master's clothing here.
>A soldier watches you as he patrols.
>Sniff air
>Perfumes, freshly baked goods, light smoke from crafter's fires all rush  
 into your senses.

[Peabody]

OOCLY you might feel overwhelmed trying to start your own clan/merchanting operation ect.. but really ICLY you definately should.  The merchant houses have a monopoly.  If I was a Kadian and found you making too much money selling silks to nobles you'd wake up one day with all your fingers sewn to your forehead.

[My 2 sids]

OOCLY you might feel overwhelmed trying to start your own clan/merchanting operation ect.. but really ICLY you definately should. The merchant houses have a monopoly.

Yes, there is a monopoly.  However, percentages are not actual number of stores.  Fact is, there are TONS of merchants.  Look around... we have whole sections for their living quarters, we have tons of npc shops and people selling things on the street, and like the documentation says we have the majority of people who do not work for any house.  These people are still merchants.  Again, its not the percentages... it's the number of shops.

Second, there is harsh and then there is probability.  Yes, there should be IC realities to trying to start up a shop.  However, not all new characters are "just starting out".  Perhaps these characters have already had a shop, worked in a shop, accumulated more money or what have you.  The draw backs such as money to not only buy supplies and living expenses but then also build skills, the avaibility of having a place to sell, and gaining enough skills, workers. Such are ooc problems and they deserve to be ooc and addressed as ooc problems with ooc solutions.