How should clans adapt to the time change?

[SpyGuy]

Simple enough, how do you think clans should adapt to the time change?

I like the new code, makes it much easier to understand and more dependable.  But it also changes the time scale so we need to adapt somehow.

Probationary times are like the Byn's year of no pay.  Those are really a problem, the actual pay seems more of an inconveinance to me.

Talk amongst yourselves...

[jhunter]

I don't see any real reason to change it, the only thing that has change is the relation between Zalanthas time and Real time.

[Canadian Beaver]

I would say to double current paydays.

Before we were saying a month in game was roughly a real life week. So we'd get paid, say for example 100 sid a rl week. Now, the time change tells us an in game month is every two rl weeks. So if the pay remains at 100 a month, we're now getting 50 sid to live off of for a rl week instead of the usual 100. If it's doubled we'll make 200 an ic month, but will average to 100 a rl week like we had before the time change.

[Angela Christine]

The problem with leaving the IC pay the same is that it hurts clanned PCs more than it hurts independants.


Lets suppose there are 2 PCs: Clannie and Indie.

Old system:

Clannie makes 300 a month (1 OOC week) plus food, water, shelter and storage.

Indie clears 300 a month (1 OOC week) after paying for his own food water shelter and storage.

Both of them have 300 coins of "disposable" income each RL week.


New system:  

Clannie makes 300 a month (2 OOC weeks) plus food, water, shelter and storage.

Indie makes 600 a month (2 OOC weeks) after paying for his own food water shelter and storage.

Indie still has 300 coins of disposable income each RL week, but Clannie only has 150.


The independants get paid based on how many hours they spend working.  Most clanned PCs get the same amount every IC year, no matter how much time they actually spend logged in and working.  If they both spent 20 hours per RL week logged in, then they were logged in for about 60 hours per IC year under the old system, and 120 hours per year under the new system. If they will both spend as much time logged as they did before, the independant will make twice as much per IC year as he did before.  Well, almost. Some of an independants "yearly" expenses will go up under the new system.  You'll need twice as much food and water in a "year" as you did before.  Rents will probably have to go up, but even that will hurt clannies with apartments more than indies with apartments.

The exception being clans where you get paid by work rather than the calendar.  In the Byn you get paid when you go on missions, if a year is now twice as long you should have the opportunity to go on twice as many missions per year.


AC

[Bestatte]

Caveat: All this stuff confused the hell out of me and I'm talking out my ass.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way:

Previously, payday in most clans has been Saturday/Sunday of the real world.

Previously, rentals were due only if there was a Nenyuk around to collect them, and in recent months this meant rentals were collected, well, they weren't. So let's not worry about Nenyuk hm? By the time your rental agent comes around to collect, your character will be dead anyway.

Previously, the shops would have new colors/stuff on Saturday/Sunday of the real world.

Previously, special orders would often take 1-3 RL months to complete and deliver.

Under the new system, I don't see why any of this has to change at all (well except for Nenyuk, but we're not worrying about them, remember?)

What matters, is what we call the payday in-game. Why can't we just assume the clan accountants have this whacky new system that doesn't pay you by the week, but instead pays you every 16 days? And that your pay hasn't changed, but neither has the availability of food, the availability of your training dummy (or sparring partner), or anything else for that matter.

ICly, you're being paid less. But that money is lasting the same amount of real-time anyway, so what difference does it make? ICly, you now -need- less because you're not being neglected of anything with the change. The only thing that doesn't reset during reboot/crash is IC time.

Re-read my caveat please...mathematics confuses me, especially regarding conversions. But people have been paid in real time - 1 real week. The clan's cook doesn't only show up once a real week, she's always there. So you're not gonna go hungry. If you're independent, the shopkeeper isn't gonna stop opening on Nekrete, he'll still be there. The roots in the forest aren't gonna stop growing on Abid. The critters aren't going to insist on taking a day off from being killed.

The -only- thing that changes is game-time. So I don't see why the players should feel any need to change the real-life convenience of using saturday boot-up as the start of new things, including measuring recruitment periods. If it was 3 real-life weeks before, make it 3 real-life weeks now. Regardless of what time it is in the game.

What's the flaw in this? Other than Nenyuk. Let them worry about Nenyuk. Most characters don't have apartments, and the ones who do can afford whatever inconveniences this will cost so the point is moot.

[My 2 sids]

The idea of working for a reputable house or, Tek willing, a noble should be a HUGE bonus to any normal commoner!  A house would offer protection, shelter, food, water, education (formal training by what would be the BEST) , stability, and (should be) a lot of respect and status.  http://www.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html !!!  Not to mention the role-play possibilities with a bigger picture of what is really running the world:  status or money.  Don't kid yourselves folks... the laws of economics and power change on earth will be the same ones that will eventually filter into game.  All of this is available for role-play now, all the player-base has to do is start putting these theories into action.

Still not enough incentive huh?  Alright, let's put this idea of "status" into more concrete way of thinking.  The price of water grew... over everything else the commoners directly affected have been the independents.  Let's keep this stuff up.  Raise the price of food.  In fact, let's make status a little more important than money.  Maybe commoners should have to pay double or be told their money isn't any good when they want to pay for someone being beaten or killed or pay a templar.  (Please note I'm not saying nothing should work in the commoner's favor, but that's a different thread/argument)  Maybe when dealing with other houses (Nenyuk, Finishing schools, merchant houses, etc) those who serve in houses should be given (or make it far more noticeable) higher priority, maybe better pricing.  Have clothing and food reflect one's status.  Maybe –only- nobles and their servants can wear silk or a certain color.  Maybe they are the only ones that can eat one kind of food or order one kind of drink.  

My point is that there should be other things that influence characters (and actually their players) than the idea of "the one with the most money wins".  As a game we've already (for the most part) gotten down the idea that there may be IC reasons one's character doesn't go hunting every day he gets the chance, or spars just to build up skill levels, or doesn't feel the need to go wondering in search of treasure.  What I'm saying are those same IC reasons should keep the majority of people from simply wanting to make "more money".  Outside of apartments, a few drinks/spice, and maybe one or two hobbies there is no reason every character should be making thousands upon thousands of sids.  That's why I voted to perhaps change the probation time, but not the wages of clanned pcs.

[Krath]

I am treating any clan I am going to be in or am in like so.

RL Work. You will be paid every two weeks...Or twice every month, until told otherwise.

[Quirk]

As it happens, I've come gradually to hold a considerable degree of dislike to the imbalance forced on the game world by the Houses, the great uberclans, which seem to me often to be sapping both the vitality and the harshness from the game. I don't intend to derail the conversation to discuss this; it's merely a statement of my biases before I begin.

I think we need a higher proportion of independents, and particularly of player-run clans, and that the numbers in the Houses need cut along with their motivations (often inexplicable in IC terms) to chop player-run clans which are too small to prove a threat off at the knees. I think keeping the pay scale unchanged will increase the motivation for people to become independents or work together apart from a House. However, after thinking this over for a bit, I think that this is the wrong way of going about it.

Those precious few lucky enough to be taken on by a House should be rich compared with the vast majority of those round them. They should be well-fed, well-trained and well-respected. They should not be poorer than the small-time independent crafter who's finally managed to get a comfortable profit going.

Were the Houses clans of a lower scale - Honest Joel's Timber and Kindling, The Bloody Arrow Mercenary Company, the Dorogo family, etc - then a payscale that could be easily improved on by an enterprising loner would make sense. With Houses at the level they are, filled (ICly) with the elite soldiers, the most experienced hunters, the most talented crafters and the wiliest aides and agents, the wages should be high; halving them would not make sense in the context of the game world. Indeed, there's a strong case to argue that they should be higher.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Okay...two issues here.  First, I don't think that noble and merchant clanned people should be paid more because they don't need to be.  They get everything they need, and some things they don't, free.  What is the money they are paid for?  Toys.  Fun stuff.  A neat outfit for when they are not required to wear their uniform.  Maybe some jewelry and other clothing to fill the wear slots that the uniform doesn't fill.  Yeah, necessary stuff, right?  :roll:

Now, the second issue, that AC brought up, is that not paying the clanned people more gives independants even more of an edge.  It is ridiculous how much an independant can make.  I have personally been witness to a character accruing over 100k in tattoos, clothing, jewelry, other crap and straight up coin.  It is not as difficult as it may seem, and I also know that the character didn't craft when anything else was going on...crafted in free time and made that much cash.  Now...that is completely broken.  Personally, I would love to see something like Armaddict suggested go in.  Find an amount that an unaligned commoner would pay...then reduce that for people of this status...then more for the next rung up...more for the next rung up...etc.  This could be done by increasing the cost of everything, but I think that setting the 'max status discount' to the current price and having a lower rank add a multiplier to the cost could work.  Having status should be a benefit...and as the game stands now, whoever has the most money to pay the larger bribe, buy a bunch of licenses and assassins etc, tends to come out ahead...which is nuts.

[Quirk]

I have personally been witness to a character accruing over 100k in tattoos, clothing, jewelry, other crap and straight up coin.  It is not as difficult as it may seem, and I also know that the character didn't craft when anything else was going on...crafted in free time and made that much cash.  Now...that is completely broken.

This is only attainable for a twink, someone who ignores what's a reasonable level of productivity and income in a month for their crafter. It's much like someone capable of soloing meks with a ten-day human warrior - no matter how they justify it, there was some measure of unrealistic role-play that went into attaining that level of skill in that length of time. I think if you ran a poll you'd find that most people have significantly more difficulty becoming rich on that sort of scale; many independents are scraping hard just to remain alive because they don't spend hours crafting tens of items in a row. I seem to remember this being discussed before.

On the subject of status: firstly, status should be reflected by the handling of crime victims. The law should show far more concern for those of higher status, as it has in almost every culture since the dawn of time. Secondly, your status should control who you can reasonably speak to and deal with. It makes no sense for a rich noble to be dealing directly with a 'Rinther. Access to those with power should be restricted to those who have a measure of power themselves. And yes, when it comes to bribes, the 'Rinther should have to raise more sid to get the templar's ear than the well-to-do merchant or House guard - it takes a lot of sid to merely buy a templar's attention.

It should not affect prices in shops however. Shopkeepers might arrange the odd discount for the wealthy or repeat customer to encourage them to keep spending their sid there, but really there's no particular reason for them to consistently slash their prices for well-to-do House members who can afford their goods far better than most of the population.

Quirk

[Quirk]

Just in case I jumped the gun a little, a couple of caveats.

Firstly it would depend on whether the character with 100K was making money off the efforts of subordinates and by other means on the side, and secondly what kind of timescale it took to get to 100K (after all, someone who took two or three RL years to get there needn't necessarily have been overdoing it - someone in a House who put their money by instead of spending it could attain that much). Income matters more than lump sums.

Quirk

[Carnage]

I have personally been witness to a character accruing over 100k in tattoos, clothing, jewelry, other crap and straight up coin. It is not as difficult as it may seem, and I also know that the character didn't craft when anything else was going on...crafted in free time and made that much cash. Now...that is completely broken.

Uh-huh.  :roll:

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Destroy the Established Noble Houses - implement the smaller, more independant and less regulatory Commoner Houses.

Pay problems are solved.

[Tamarin]

Destroy the Established Noble Houses - implement the smaller, more independant and less regulatory Commoner Houses.

Pay problems are solved.

Peasant revolt....woot.

[SpyGuy]

Back on topic...

I hope the Clan IMMs can get together sometime soon and actually decide how to respond to this uniformly.  Just so that Clan A and Clan B aren't doing two different pay schedules because if I had a choice I'd join the clan that paid me more/more often, just simple common sense.

Also I'd like to point out that any decrease in pay hurts newer players more than older ones, even if they make the same amount.  (Note: this applies more to those clans that don't give a full set of eq to new hires).  Person A who just started still only has a few pieces of armor and maybe a decent weapon he bought with newbie money.  Person B has been with the clan for 3 IC years and has a full set of nice eq and some stored in the bank.  Now person A will need to wait twice as long for a full set of armor etc., even though he'll be playing the same amount of RL time.  Unless they steal from their clan... thats always an option  :twisted:

[John]

let's make status a little more important than money.  Maybe commoners should have to pay double or be told their money isn't any good when they want to pay for someone being beaten or killed or pay a templar.

This is the one of the best suggestions I've heard to fix this problem. It solves the problem. Double prices at CERTAIN stores (thinking Traders, Salarr stores, Kadius stores, water seller) for non-noble and non-merchant Houses. Why would Kadius reduce the price for Salarri? Because Salar is reducing the price for Kadians.

The main people I can see being affected by this are people in secretive clans (such as the Guild. But I don't even know if they have a monthly pay).

Eventually such a situation is going to bleed into roleplay. People are going to either resent the House people or want to join their House. This will then make recruiters jobs easier. At the moment, it is VERY difficult to recruit certain people into certain positions. However with the game benefitting House employees more, it increases the desire to join such clans, letting recruiters knock people back.

It will also cause independants to go to independant sellers. And when they don't have what they want, it will lead to going to PCs. This will lead to a higher class situation. It'll matter more where you shop, what sort of clothes/armour you wear.

It is ridiculous how much an independant can make.

I agree.

This is only attainable for a twink

I disagree. I was able to make back 1,000 sid with nothing but the foraging command in about 1 OOC week. True, I did have a monopoly in the playerbase at the time, but it was still ridiculous, because I was only selling to 1 NPC.

[flurry]

If it's ridiculous, why would you do it, though?   I mean part of it's an issue with pricing and such, but part of it is surely an issue of restraint on the part of the players.    If you think you've earned more than you ought to be able to, stop.

[spawnloser]

Quirk, maybe you missed the fact that the person was crafting when not doing anything else...and had plenty other stuff going on.  Having all the time in the world to mud 8+ hours a day allows for stuff like that.  Crafting four items in 8 hours is not twinky...or every crafter I have seen is twinky.

[jhunter]

I think the fact that our pcs also exist IG virtually even when you are logged out, isn't being taken into account. This would be a factor in the number of items a pc can craft in the time that they are logged in.

Also, in real life, you can make more of an item by setting yourself up to do many at a time, in some cases it will actually take much less time than crafting each individually.

For example:

A woodcrafter making some wooden boxes or chests, it takes so much time to measure out the pieces and fit them together...now, if you are planning ahead to make multiples of them, you measure and shape the pieces required for one box, and use those pieces to trace out multiple copies of each.

Then you've saved time that you would have spent measuring out each individual piece and all you need to do is fit all of the pieces together and you have many boxes of the same type. By doing it this way it takes much less time than it would have to produce the name number doing each from start to finish separately.

This is just one example that I know of in the real world, I'm sure there are many ways for crafts I know nothing about, to cut out steps and save time when making multiple items.

[Angela Christine]

I think the fact that our pcs also exist IG virtually even when you are logged out, isn't being taken into account.

You don't take that into account unless you also junk the food and water that you used durring that time.  Stuff you do while logged out doesn't affect your logged in status.



AC

[creeper386]

Hmm... I'm thinking, if now time is set as a standard. And one IC month is now two weeks instead of one OOC week. It's going to REALLY hurt clanned players, period. Yes, they have food whenever they want. But not EVERY clan is automated with everything. I tend to have troubles getting by in one OOC week with that three hundred sid when I play alot. Because I'm not ALWAYS in the barracks to eat when I'm hungry. My character DOESN'T ALWAYS have everything he needs supplied for him. Now, I have to make the same 'sid go by for TWICE the amount of time.

If things stay the same OOC numbers, it'll basically make being an indie with alot of time to play alot easier, while making a clanned character with alot of time to play harder, with the reverse for players that don't have alot of time to spend MUDing. It's always going to be imperfect, but things worked fairly well with how they were before.

Now that time is standardized, other things WIL have to be adjusted. And for people that changed ages. You just went to the age you SHOULD have been. You didn't really loose or gain any time except the time jumps and warps from crashes and high player times. So your age is right now, it was wrong before. I don't see why you should change it. Even though the age said you have been around for 5 IC years you were really only around for two, so why do you think you lost some years or something?

Something well have to change I think. As, before measurement was done in OOC time because IC time was screwed up. Now IC time is fixed. Measurement can be done in there. Have a year as a recruit? You can keep track of that with your age in score and the time command now instead of keeping around an OOC date. I don't know. I don't know what should be changed but something well need to be adjusted I'm sure.


Creeper

[John]

I'm not ALWAYS in the barracks to eat when I'm hungry.

Then that's something you should think about when you leave the barracks. Are you full? No? Can you get some free food? No? How long till you can get some free food? How long are you planning on staying away from the barracks? Are you going to be with a superior?

These are all things that need to be considered. I know I consider them in real life. How am I going to get lunch tomorrow? How much is it going to cost me? When will I get home? Will that be in time for dinner? What should I do about dinner? Am I eating enough in the morning? Should I take something to eat? (a bit of bread perhaps for nibblies).

My character DOESN'T ALWAYS have everything he needs supplied for him.

Needs or wants? If it's something you need for your job, talk to your superior about it.

[jhunter]

jhunter wrote:
I think the fact that our pcs also exist IG virtually even when you are logged out, isn't being taken into account.


You don't take that into account unless you also junk the food and water that you used durring that time. Stuff you do while logged out doesn't affect your logged in status.



AC

First of all...what does that have -anything- to do with crafting?

Secondly, those that are in clans with food and water provided for them...this wouldn't even apply to in -any- shape or form.

[Angela Christine]

jhunter wrote:
I think the fact that our pcs also exist IG virtually even when you are logged out, isn't being taken into account.


You don't take that into account unless you also junk the food and water that you used durring that time. Stuff you do while logged out doesn't affect your logged in status.

First of all...what does that have -anything- to do with crafting?

Secondly, those that are in clans with food and water provided for them...this wouldn't even apply to in -any- shape or form.

It relates because in both cases we are talking about time.  Lets say you decide that it is reasonable to make, say, 100 obsidian broadswords in a single IC year.  But if you are only logged in for 1/10th of that year, it doesn't necessarily make sense that you would craft all 100 broadswords while you are logged in.  Some of them would be virtual broadswords that you crafted virtually while logged off,  then virtual sold for virtual 'sids which you spent on virtual whores, virtual booze, virtual food, virtual water, virtual fines, virtual taxes, or lost virtually gambling.  

If you figure your character can create 100 broadswords in a year, and you craft all 100 while logged in, what is your character doing while you are logged off?  He isn't working, because he has already done all his work.  He isn't carousing in a tavern, because he isn't spending any money and he has no virtual money since he does no virtual work.  He can't eat or drink, unless he is in a clan that provides unlimited food and water, because he isn't spending any money  on those things.  He likely spends some of the time sleeping, but not all of it.  Does he just lay around in his room all day, waiting for you to come back?


AC

[jhunter]

That's a really extreme example.

I'm talking about crafting just a bit more while your logged in than you could really do in that time...not some outrageous number.

That little bit of excess could be explained by your virtual time.

Also...no matter what...your virtual time counts against your aging...as well as any rent you may have to pay...your rent doesn't just come from "logged in time".  Why should your entire income be locked into it either?

[Quirk]

Seems a few people misunderstood me on the "twink" issue.

Before I begin though - is the character you're speaking of the same one as in this thread, spawnloser?

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6501&start=75

I couldn't help but notice that his crafting's halved since the last time he was invoked.

In any case, if you're making more sid than would be reasonable for an independent of your skillset to make you have to stop and think whether it makes sense. You have to police yourself. The economy was not designed to cope with people being logged in all day long crafting busily. A reasonable rate of crafting for someone who logged in two hours per day might be entirely inappropriate for someone who was logged in twelve hours per day. Given that most of the world is dirt poor, it doesn't make sense to be selling a dozen items for a thousand sid a month either - unless of course you're selling to PCs. If you're selling your wares chiefly to PCs you have a much better model of the market - there will be a limited number of diamond necklaces you can sell before the people who want them that month and can afford them have them. If you're selling to NPCs, the market model isn't detailed enough to have the shopkeeper start refusing silk shawls on the grounds that they don't sell enough silk shawls to warrant keeping a large stock of them. Perhaps this could be fixed by having all shopkeepers endowed with a rather smaller purse for purchasing goods, so that all crafters together selling to that shopkeeper can make a maximum of a few hundred sid in a given week.

Meanwhile, you have to police yourself. Just because you can do something code-wise doesn't mean you should.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

*sigh* I pull estimates from my ass, knowing roughly what I mean and certain numbers without fail (because those are the ones I kept track of), but if you want raw data that can be argued or not...here we go, Quirk.

Average sell value of the items that were crafted: 600 obsidian.

100,000 / 600 = 166.6 total items crafted over 3 months of play
= 55.5 items per month
= 1.851 items per day

That is an average.  I played an average of over 5 hours a day, which means one item every 2.7 hours or every 162 minutes.

Granted, this is without expenditures for food and water, but this was before the thirst code was tweaked so only purchased water once (I remember the exact instance) and subsisted on travel cakes (as there were IC reasons to scrimp and save which I will not elaborate on).  For these reasons, the above figures probably wouldn't be altered too terribly much.

So, Quirk, satisfied with this explanation?  I think I'll copy it and save it to a text file for the next time an arguement about how broken the economy is when it comes to independants.

Now, on to making shopkeepers have less money...there is a problem in that.  Certain crafters could never sell an item for what it is worth...ever.  Some items could only be sold once or twice a week because the shopkeeper only had enough money at reboot and every two or three days later, unless someone bought something from them.  That would make it hard to the point of impossible...I'm just advocating making it more taxing on the indpendants money pouch.

[Bestatte]

That would put a real dent in many crafts though, Quirk.

Take clothworking for example. There currently exists no method (to my knowledge) of gathering raw materials at no financial cost and weave them into cloth, so the clothworker can then turn that cloth into clothing and sell at a 100% profit.

In fact, a relatively new clothworker (in my experience, a clothworker with anything less than 15 days play time) will -lose- money selling clothes to the NPC shops, unless they only make very specific objects and sell only those objects. Unfortunately the shopkeeper will only buy 5 of any given item, so their profit will be less than the cost to buy new cloth.

A -truly- independent clothworker, who has no benefactor and only whatever customers they can drum up themselves, will be very much the starving artists of Zalanthas. Most of the things the new clothworker produces, no one wants to buy except for the shopkeeper and a few PCs who are run by players who want to encourage the clothworker to do well with their "pity purchases."

Armorcrafters and jewelers and woodworkers and weaponcrafters can all get their materials for free, at some (or at great) risk to their health if they pick a hunting primary class. Clothworkers cannot. They -must- buy their materials, or find someone with the sids to give them the materials or coins to pay for them.

A clothworker can spam-craft day in and day out, for hour upon hour, and he will still come out in the red while he's new.

Edited to add: Yes I realize that a clothworker can have some kind of hunting primary class, go hunting, and sell off the skins and shells and meat for coin, and then buy the cloth with the coin. But -one- length of linen will cost many real-time hours worth of collected skins, and a new clothworker will likely ruin that length of linen. An armorcrafter or weaponcrafter can turn all those skins or chitin into armor, or ruin them trying, but at least have enough "stuff" to keep them busy for quite a long time.

[Quirk]

Average sell value of the items that were crafted: 600 obsidian.

100,000 / 600 = 166.6 total items crafted over 3 months of play
= 55.5 items per month
= 1.851 items per day

That is an average.  I played an average of over 5 hours a day, which means one item every 2.7 hours or every 162 minutes.

And you don't see anything wrong with selling a couple of 600+cost of materials items every day? This is *exactly* what I meant about self-policing. There's no way a shopkeeper should let those expensive items stack up, considering how small the percentage of people is of people out there with the sid to afford their purchase. It's "broken" because certain people are willing to take advantage of the system. Making it more taxing on the independent's money pouch hurts everyone independent including those crafting realistically. Forcing people to sell to PCs if they want to offload the big expensive items sounds to me eminently sensible - it's preventing people becoming obscenely rich through crafting more expensive items than the market can stand, while not hurting those who're scraping by.

And Bestatte, your example of clothworking says to me that there need to be more cheap bits of rough cloth on sale in certain places to help newbie crafters, not that shopkeepers should be capable of paying thousands of sid per week for the finished article. I think there's some latitude to be given for the starving newbie crafting just to survive - it's the experienced and skilled artisan who could flood the virtual market with silk shawls who has to tone down his money-gathering efforts.

Quirk

[Anonymous]

What I'd really love to see, is to have "weaving" and "spinning" introduced to the game. All those strange bits of hair and wool you see in the shops could be used to spin into yarn, then weave into cloth, then sew into clothing. Give combat-oriented/clothmaker combos more versatility and more justification to go out there and bring things back. Make buttons from chitin, strips of leather can be used for trim, etc. etc.

[Bestatte]

Blech that was me in the "guest" post. I timed out my login while I was posting it.

[spawnloser]

Quirk...let me clarify something that you seemed to miss.

I said an average of more than five hours a day...and looking back at figures, that average should actually be eight hours a day.  (90 RL days of character life, 30 days played at death means played 1/3 of that time.)  I don't feel like going back and recalculating...but that estimate allows for other things like failures and such eating up a bit of the profit.  Now...since the actual estimate is getting closer to one every two days than one a day, I don't see much of a problem.  In fact, for example, for a crafter to make a pair of pants and a shirt in one week is not a big deal...and in fact, VERY doable.  Using nothing but needle and thread, I know people that can make an entire outfit in a day...granted, that is with modern tools, but seriously, how different can a needle, thread and linen be now compared to a time when technology was like that of Zalanthas?  Until the staff tell me that crafting an item every two IG days is unreasonable, I will do it again with my next crafter character.  You can bitch and moan all you want...but that isn't the problem, the problem is how easy it is to get by with little expenditure of cash and the potential pay out.

[Krath]

I do not see a problem with selling one or two 600+ obsidian items to a shopkeeper a day. I mean, Virtual people will buy them, and hell some people like nice things, however, if I remember correctly the actual PC population of armageddon is about 1% of the total population, so who is to say they are not being bought virtually, or some fancy-pants noble is not buying mass quanities of baskets to try to work designs on them, or silks to decorate his room.

Basically, if it is ICly justified for your character to do it, then do it and fuck anyone else that gives you their opinion(unless it is an immortal).

[Quirk]

I do not see a problem with selling one or two 600+ obsidian items to a shopkeeper a day. I mean, Virtual people will buy them, and hell some people like nice things, however, if I remember correctly the actual PC population of armageddon is about 1% of the total population, so who is to say they are not being bought virtually, or some fancy-pants noble is not buying mass quanities of baskets to try to work designs on them, or silks to decorate his room.

Basically, if it is ICly justified for your character to do it, then do it and fuck anyone else that gives you their opinion(unless it is an immortal).

Because there are a very limited number of virtual people with the sid to buy these things, and most of their needs are catered to by all the virtual crafters.

Think what would happen if there were no shops, and you were selling only to the PC population. You'd sell a fair number of middling cheap weapons and cheap cloaks and armour and jewellery. You'd sell very few thousand-sid-or-over-sid pieces of armour or clothing each RL week, and the people who bought them would be unlikely to want new ones next week. The same principle applies on a larger scale to the VNPC population, it's just that the code doesn't model the market forces in much detail.

Whether it's ICly justified or not, it's abusing the system to make more sid than your character should realistically be able to. You can abuse any bug in an "ICly justifiable" manner, but that doesn't mean that it's not bug abuse.

And spawnloser, your revised calculations don't make for a big difference. Ninety days played RL on the character, a hundred thousand sid at character death, and I think we can assume that at least the first week or two RL didn't see you making a thousand sid an RL day. This would be consistent with you selling two six hundred sid items per RL day, and as your post on income claimed he was making ten thousand sid per RL week by the end, and with Saturday downtime that can be spread over only six and a half days, that would make for items being sold at a faster rate than that, at least 2.5 items per day assuming every item profited you 600 sid.

My complaint is that you're assuming things about the market that are untrue - chiefly that it has an unlimited capacity to soak up expensive items. Those items you're selling to Kadius or Salarr for six hundred sid are being resold for much more. This would be partly solved if shopkeepers lacked the sid to buy those very expensive items and you had to find PC buyers; you'd be dealing with a realistic market.

Quirk

[John]

100,000 / 600 = 166.6 total items crafted over 3 months of play
= 55.5 items per month
= 1.851 items per day

2 items per day is (IMO) perfectly reasonible.

subsisted on travel cakes (as there were IC reasons to scrimp and save which I will not elaborate on).

That's a pet peeve of mine that I do my best to ALWAYS avoid. If I can, I will NEVER eat a travel cake. I'm not saying it's bad RP, but it's a pet-peeve of mine.

it's abusing the system to make more sid than your character should realistically be able to.

How do you know what's acceptable then? 300 'sid items might seem like a lot to you, whereas it might seem like nothing to someone else. Halve all those figures and you still have 50,000 'sid in 3months. Is this still twinky? IMO 50,000 'sid in 3 months is a lot of 'sid. Too much? Maybe. So maybe I only sell 150 'sid items. I'll still earn 25,000 'sid in 3months. Is this a lot of 'sid? Yup. Considering what House employees get. But 150 'sid isn't an expensive item IMO (for PCs. I personally think the whole PC-economy is broken, but I can't see how to fix it). And 2 items per OOC day IMO is perfectly acceptable. So we have 2 perfectly acceptable aspects, that when added, lead to an unrealistic amount. Self-policing fails in this situation. It's quite easy to survive on 300 'sid a week when your an independant. That's 2 days pay. Everything else is profit. This is a problem, yet I can't see a solution. I should only sell 2 items a week? It's unrealistic for me to spend that whole time not working.

[spawnloser]

Quirk, what John said.  Just because you think an item is expensive at 600 'sid doesn't mean everyone else would.  For example, my current character rarely spends less than a thousand 'sid on anything when it comes to buying from other PCs.

[Quirk]

But 150 'sid isn't an expensive item IMO (for PCs. I personally think the whole PC-economy is broken, but I can't see how to fix it).

What you're missing is that an item that you've sold to a shop for 150 sid will likely be resold for 300 or more (assuming you don't have ungodly haggle skills, which may skew things further). It's that final sale price which counts for how expensive it is. If you sell items that resell for a reasonable couple of hundred sid, you're likely making under a hundred sid per item. So, say we halve it again - and you're making 12500 sid per 3 months. That's still quite a lot as a House guard on four hundred sid an RL week would be making only about 5000 sid in that time, but you're paying for your own food and water. By that stage you're a well-to-do merchant who could quite reasonably be making more than many House employees, but you're still not on silly sid.

spawnloser, I have to point out that your current character is not the typical salaried House guard/struggling independent if you're paying that kind of sid when buying from other PCs. Most of the playerbase doesn't have that sort of money - it's rare for non-nobles and non-Family members to have the income to afford that.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Oddly enough, I did have an ungodly haggle.  Most items, after haggling, sold for nearly 2x what any normal schmuck would get.  Once, I actually succeeded at haggling something in such a way that I could sell it back to a shopkeeper for more the same price that I bought it for...which was cool, since I didn't want it after purchasing it and figuring out that it was no good for what I wanted it for.

[Quirk]

Once, I actually succeeded at haggling something in such a way that I could sell it back to a shopkeeper for more the same price that I bought it for...which was cool, since I didn't want it after purchasing it and figuring out that it was no good for what I wanted it for.

Did you bug that?

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Why should it be bugged?  If you are charismatic enough, and know how to haggle, you should be able to convince someone to give you your money back.

I can understand if I had gotten more money than I bought it for, but not same amount.

[Quirk]

Once, I actually succeeded at haggling something in such a way that I could sell it back to a shopkeeper for more the same price that I bought it for...

That sounds to me like you were getting more sid than he was selling it for, hence buggy.

But, while haggling to get a full refund may make sense in game, haggling to sell an item to a shopkeeper that he can make no profit on does not. The code won't distinguish between an item you bought a moment ago and an identical item you made yourself. Shopkeepers can't stay in business that way - the maximum selling value attainable with haggle should be less than the resale value.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Oops...that was supposed to read "for the same price" but I was rethining how I wanted to say things and somehow that more didn't get editted out when I was removing something else I was writing.  I got the same amount back that I paid...not more.  I...shouldn't say more, as that reveals how haggle works a little too much, but from what I have seen of haggle...it probably is very possible for someone with a high enough skill who is patient enough OOC to make profit off of a buy/sell transaction...however, that would take some work and would probably be a bit too time consuming for your average powergaming twink.

So far, the discussion has focused on money. I'm interested in what people think about periods of time.

Specifically, the Byn requires a year at the Runner level before becoming a Trooper. Formerly, that meant spending three weeks of RL time. Now that is doubled to six weeks. That doesn't seem fair to new players wanting to join the Byn.

On the other hand, it doesn't make sense for the Byn to suddenly change its recruitment policy by promoting Runners after a half year.

What do you think?

[My 2 sids]

the Byn requires a year at the Runner level before becoming a Trooper. Formerly, that meant spending three weeks of RL time. Now that is doubled to six weeks. That doesn't seem fair to new players wanting to join the Byn.

On the other hand, it doesn't make sense for the Byn to suddenly change its recruitment policy by promoting Runners after a half year.

I'm guessing the time required for learning skills has changed the same, so that would mean it would now only take a person half a year to be at the same skill of a "one-year" person under the old system.  That being said I think some of "recruit" times should be changed accordingly.  As for the "sudden change"  I say, think of it like a Soap Opera.  We are told this is the way it is and this is the way it has always been.  Or simply say the change was made from the higher ups of each clan, no one need question why any of the higher ups do anything.

As it stands, there are two options:

1. Keep the skill level standard constant, and cut the trial period in half

2. Keep the trial period constant, and double the required skill level for promotion

I can see both options from an IC perspective. The Byn could go either way, depending on how badly it needs leadership at the Trooper/Sergeant level. From a player perspective though, 6 weeks seems an awfully long time to be cleaning latrines.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

1. Keep the skill level standard constant, and cut the trial period in half

2. Keep the trial period constant, and double the required skill level for promotion.

There is no skill-level required. IC leadership abilities and time spent are the determining factors.

[Angela Christine]

There has always been the tradition that especially promising recruits may graduate a little early (depending on experience, some are not required to go through the recruit phase at all).  So even if the offical recruit period was not changed, the powers-that-be could opt to use "early graduation" more often.


AC

I'm thinking along similar lines, Angela. If the official trial period isn't changed, it would be nice to see promising recruits being given a little more leeway for early graduation.

[Tlaloc]

For now, the Byn will not be changing its recruitment policy. If you wish to join the T'zai Byn, you must go through a year as a Runner, first. If you wish to enter the Byn for training, you must stay through the year as a Runner.

There is no, nor ever has been, a required 'skill level'.

I can think of no IC justification to lessen the time required for Runnership. I personally feel there should be no changes in regards to IC time. If you were paid once a month before, then you get paid once a month now.  If you had to stick it out as a Runner for a year before...you have to do the same now. Harsh? Maybe. But thats Armageddon.

Furthermore: a six week Runnership is a much bigger, and better deterrent for the habitual Byn-quitter/Rejoiners, heh.

[Twilight]

IC justifications mean absolutely nothing in the face of one simple OOC justification:  Fun.

At least in this case, IMHO.  If it is no longer fun, because of this change, what is the point?

[Tlaloc]

Are you saying its impossible to have fun as a Runner?

[Akaramu]

It depends on the interactions, and activity times / PC population of a clan. It is possible to not have fun as a runner if you are stuck on the compound with solo roleplay for hours. I agree chores are a blast with at least one other player who actually roleplays and doesnt just AFK / idle through them, but if there is never anyone around during the time a player can be logged in, it can easily happen that he / she is having no fun.

[Bestatte]

If 2 RL weeks is enough to turn something "fun" into something "not fun," I would ask the player, to ask themselves, what they consider "fun" in the first place.

If being a Byn runner is a drudgery for the player, then I suggest they not play in the Byn, no matter how long or short the rank duration.

As a runner, you aren't confined strictly to barracks duty and sparring the entire 6-week real-time period. You have opportunities to get out of town with your group and go on expeditions. This doesn't change.

My concern is with clans that get no pay as recruits (I only know of one, and don't know anything about the other). Two additional real-life weeks of not being able to buy a mug of ale on your day off would be a real bummer. Not being able to buy your character's girlfriend a pretty little 20-sid feather ring would be pretty unpleasant and frustrating.

But then, it's already frustrating when you have to endure that for a RL month, so an extra 2 weeks is just another 2 weeks of what it was before.

I think some clans are paid too little, given the fact that they -do- have days off, and -do- want to sit at the bar and drink an ale once in awhile.

Perhaps, instead of changing the times, or changing schedules, or changing pay...clan leaders give their employees a small bonus at the end of their game-week or at the end of 3 days in a row of sparring and other scheduled stuff - maybe just 20 or 30 sids, so they can congratulate themselves for their efforts and progress with an ale on the House?

[Akaramu]

If 2 RL weeks is enough to turn something "fun" into something "not fun," I would ask the player, to ask themselves, what they consider "fun" in the first place.

As a runner, you aren't confined strictly to barracks duty and sparring the entire 6-week real-time period. You have opportunities to get out of town with your group and go on expeditions. This doesn't change.

Wrong. There are times in the Byn, like any clan, where you wontnt meet any sergeant or any other player for 80% of the time you play. No sparring, no training outside the city. Only solo RP, unless you skip duties, which can be bad roleplay.

I know what I'm talking about. I have had two Byn characters, the first was an absolute, incredible blast, and I loved every minute of her runner time due to the immese interactions I experienced. The second time, I wouldnt see another player for hour after hour. I tried idleing and solo RPing for like a RL week waiting for other players to show up until I was getting quite disheartened and logged in a lot less. And pretty just waited for the trial time to pass.

I think a lot of it depends on when you are able to play. Right now, I have some extra time during off peak hours, and spend a lot of time simply idling or doing emotes by myself. If the PC Sergeants were more visible, the six weeks would be more bearable. You could actually do some desert training, or help complete a contract. However, my character has yet to do any of that. Then again, he would be in the same predicament as a Trooper.

Personally, I'm fine with it taking six weeks. I just hope it doesn't disincent other people from signing up, since the numbers are already pretty low as is.

[Twilight]

Personally I had fun last time in the Byn.  Even though I play almost exclusively from 12 am to 8 am PST, and thus not only didn't encounter many people, but also never saw (while I was there or in the posts about former ones) one of those excursions during those playtimes.  I make it fun for myself.

I meant the comment as a broad one, not really indicative either of my own play, or the Byn.

[Angela Christine]

I should have joined the Byn three weeks ago.  D'oh!

Are you saying its impossible to have fun as a Runner?

No, it is fun, but it's also a money pit.  Your income is nearly nil, but you still have expenses (equipment, armor, mount, stable fees, booze and spice to while away the weekends, etc.)  Sitting in a tavern all weekend and not buying anything is lame, the Gaj may not have a 2 drink minimum, but that doesn't mean they like freeloaders taking up tablespace.  If you don't have a mount people jeer at you and you are a burden on the sargeant.  If you don't own a weapon people look at you like you are nuts and then try to scrounge something crappy up from the storeroom.  No armor?  Well, that reduces the chances that you will be invited on to go on missions (Runners don't have to be taken on missions).  If you want to play the pathetic little brother that people roll their eyes at it is fine, but otherwise I like to make a couple thousand 'sid before I join.  If you join as a fresh newbie with nothing but your newbie money, then you are inept and ill equiped and (since you make very little money your first year) you'll stay poorly equiped for years.  

Struggling can be fun sometimes, but it can also get old after a while.


AC

[John]

Are you saying its impossible to have fun as a Runner?

Heck no. Although it IS boring the constant sparring :roll:

But I use to talk to a Bynner Sargeant OOCly and (I'm pretty sure, it's been well over a year so I might be remembering it wrong) he was of the opinion runners shouldn't be taken out on missions (only training ones). I don't know if that was the opinion of a lot of PCs at the time or if it was just his personal opinion, so I don't know if it was ever changed. But if the policy is runners can only go on training missions, you can see how that would detract from the fun.

Sitting in a tavern all weekend and not buying anything is lame

I've had Byn Sargeants that would regularly give us all some 'sid for nothing but to have fun They are, after all, mercenaries

[Carnage]

Heck no. Although it IS boring the constant sparring  

But I use to talk to a Bynner Sargeant OOCly and (I'm pretty sure, it's been well over a year so I might be remembering it wrong) he was of the opinion runners shouldn't be taken out on missions (only training ones). I don't know if that was the opinion of a lot of PCs at the time or if it was just his personal opinion, so I don't know if it was ever changed. But if the policy is runners can only go on training missions, you can see how that would detract from the fun.

Have you ever competently played a Byn runner?

I've played several. My first one was as a newbie and, in hindsight, nobody's going to really involve a newbie in a plot. Second one got killed in desert training gone bad. Third, living maybe about two or so weeks, got wrapped up into some pretty cool stuff and ended up dying to the hands of an Allanaki templar. He also went on a big RPT with the Byn. The fourth got caught up in a soap opera-esque plot as well as some cool player-run RPTs.

All in all, being a runner in the Byn is what you make of it. My favorite RPTs have been with the Byn and I've had some fun characters that have been through it.

[John]

Have you ever competently played a Byn runner?

No. But the person I was talking to OOCly wasn't talking about my specific character, but runners in general. But as I said, I don't know if it was his opinion or the official opinion or what. So I was just asking are runners less likely to be involved in plots, then Troopers? (regardless of compotency, just talking on average here).

[Carnage]

Have you ever competently played a Byn runner?

No.

Heck no. Although it IS boring the constant sparring

Wait, let me get this straight. You've never played a Byn runner well, and here you are complaining about how constant sparring is boring? What do you expect is going to happen? That you're going to get swept up into some good plots when you admit you haven't had a good character in the Byn?

A lot of people don't want to start up plots with the newb from BaoBob. I'm one of them. You're unreliable, not used to the world, and so forth. When you've shown some knowledge of the world, your character has been around for more than a week, and so on, that's when people start to trust you, as a player, to be a fun part of a plot and generally have you involved. But complaining that the Byn is boring due to the constant sparring is just ignorant.

[spawnloser]

You...asked 'competently' Carnage.  From what he has said, it seems that he has played a Bynner, just not competently.

[Carnage]

You...asked 'competently' Carnage.  From what he has said, it seems that he has played a Bynner, just not competently.

Where did I give any indication that I meant otherwise in my post?

[John]

Wait, let me get this straight. You've never played a Byn runner well, and here you are complaining about how constant sparring is boring?

Yes. Constant sparring is boring. I don't see how a "competent runner" is going to find constant sparring anymore fun.

What do you expect is going to happen? That you're going to get swept up into some good plots when you admit you haven't had a good character in the Byn?

There was two parts of my post. 1> Saying the constant sparring was boring. 2> Asking whether or not there is a policy against runners going on missions.

But complaining that the Byn is boring due to the constant sparring is just ignorant.

Then you misunderstood my post. I said 2 things in the sentence when I said constant sparring is boring.
1> I said playing a runner is fun
2> A certain aspect of that role is boring (the sparring every morning of every IC weekday section).

I wasn't saying playing a runner in the Byn is boring. I was saying a certain aspect of playing a runner in the Byn is boring. There's a difference.

[Carnage]

2> A certain aspect of that role is boring (the sparring every morning of every IC weekday section).

I presume the T'zai Byn is the only military clan you've ever played in.

[John]

I presume the T'zai Byn is the only military clan you've ever played in.

I've also played in Tor. I found that to be less rigid with the sparring sessions (but at the time there was also only a handful of other PCs). I also played in the Allanaki militia and found that to be less rigid with the sparring as well.

[SpyGuy]

Sparring is a necessary part of alot of military clans.  I can think of 2 I've already been in, in my rather short span here, though where sparring was *not* a constant part of the guard regiment.  Look around, a lot of clans need hunters (its coded hunting and foraging but that can be more fun than sparring) or some clans will hire guards that will play more social roles.

Also I think it really depends on your character whether they're fun to spar with or not.  If the character likes to show bravado and get into the sparring mindset, I do.  If the character thinks practice is just a bunch of drudgery inbetween duties, then I feel that way.  But thats just me, I'm not saying I'm a great character actor or anything but I've noticed sparrings more fun if you align your PC to also enjoy getting the crap beat out of him.

[Krath]

I am a firm believer if you have had no experience in a subject being talked about, do not open your mouth, it will make you sound fucking stupid.

With that said, Being a Byn Runner was probably one of my most favorite RP moments ever. It is during that time you determine your character's personality towards the other people in the byn and such. It fucking rocks IMHO.

[Akaramu]

The issues I brought up remain, and no one picked them up.

It is easy to not have fun as a Byn Runner if:

-You are forced to play on off-peak hours.

-Very few other PCs and no sergeants are ever around when you are.

-You solo RP once in awhile, but you just dont enjoy doing it for hours.

-It is not IC for you to skip duties to find someone to interact with rather than idleing on the compound for hours.

[Carnage]

When I played in Tor, there -was- a strict schedule. The only reason one of my characters was allowed to get away from it was because there were about two others at the time that rarely logged in and I was given permission to do whatever I wanted then. I couldn't say for the Militia as I've never cared to play in it, but if I recall correctly the Militia generally sends most of their recruits to the Tor Academy.

It is not IC for you to skip duties to find someone to interact with rather than idleing on the compound for hours.

Believe it or not, there -are- VNPC runners doing chores, which means people your character can interact with. Going to a tavern because there aren't any players around and you haven't been given permission in a situation like I was is just an OOC excuse.

You are forced to play on off-peak hours.

This applies to all clans.

[Akaramu]

Believe it or not, there -are- VNPC runners doing chores, which means people your character can interact with. Going to a tavern because there aren't any players around and you haven't been given permission in a situation like I was is just an OOC excuse.

Believe it or not, I AM very aware of VNPCs. If you listened, you would have realized that I was speaking for those who are not very fond of solo RP for long time spans.

I know this applies to all clans, but some restrict you more in what you can do when than others. And the Byn is possibly on the top of the strictness list I am aware of. Which is a good thing... as long as you are not forced to solo rp on the compound for hours... 6 RL weeks of doing so sound hella long.

[Carnage]

Believe it or not, I AM very aware of VNPCs. If you listened, you would have realized that I was speaking for those who are not very fond of solo RP for long time spans.

It is easy to not have fun as a Byn Runner if:
[...]
-It is not IC for you to skip duties to find someone to interact with rather than idleing on the compound for hours.

First of all, I'd like to tet this out of the way: at no time are you forced to solo RP for long durations. No one has walked up to you and put a gun at your head and screamed, "SOLO RP NOW OR I'LL BLOW YOUR FUCKING BRAINS OUT!"

Second, your sentence was very confusing. "It is not IC for you to skip duties" would be fine for your list of "it is easy to not have fun as a Byn Runner" reasons, but then the "to find someone to interact with" brings it to the OOC realm, and it's not okay for anyone to skip duties just to go play with other people on a whim. Or it implies that your character is skipping duties so he/she can find other people to play around with, which also implies not looking for VNPCs.

[Angela Christine]

Or it implies that your character is skipping duties so he/she can find other people to play around with, which also implies not looking for VNPCs.

Well, yeah.  Roleplaying with VNPCs is solo-roleplaying, and you can do that better on a single player RPG, where their are at least NPCs programed to do stuff.  The problem with VNPCs is that they are dull, predictable, and they usually ignore PCs.

>say (grinning a the chubby, fresh faced runner) Hey Amos, good job with the shovel, but I think you missed a spot.

Wait.

>say (with a look of mock concern at at the cubby, fresh faced runner) Aw, don't be like that Amos, yer a fine shoveler.  I was just pulling your leg.

Wait.

>say (looking irritated)  What the feck is your problem Amos?  Hey, you, fatboy!  I'm talking to you!

Wait.

>say Oh the silent treatment eh?  So that's the way you want to play it?

Wait.

>em scoops up a shovelful of muck from the latrine floor and flings it at the chubby, fresh faced runner.

>shout How do you like that, eh?

Wait.

>say (grumbling)  Fine Amos, you just stand there pretening you aren't covered in shit.  You smell better like this anyway.


See, the VNPCs only react to other VNPCs.  They are a bunch of fecking snobs.


AC