Help that newbie elf!

[Forest Junkie]

I didnt call you a grump because I want you to babysit newbies (for gods sake, dont, you'd bite their heads off). I did because you post for no reason other than to be negative, ignore the argumentation of others, discourage a newbie, make up false assumptions, and remind us a dozen times that you dont care.

Carnage isn't a negative person. In fact, he's like my dog. He's very good at sniffing out piles of bullshit. ie Whining, bitching, groaning, moaning, you know, all that crap we hate to hear.

On topic, though, I try to help out newbies if I can. But as Carnage said, the documentation for the game is there for a reason. I will not sit someone down and have an OOC discussion about why I don't like them. It can become a waste of time, and I personally have more important things to do concerning IC actions.

[SpyGuy]

Just as a side comment - Akaramu never said that her friend didn't read the docs (in fact she specifically said that her friend had read the docs).  Perhaps it's better not to make wild assumptions, and try to be helpful.    Even after reading the docs, new players have a difficult time at first.    Almost always.  There's nothing unusual about that, and there's no reason to assume she hasn't read the docs.

I have to agree with this.  Even if a newbie has read all the relevant docs it can still be difficult to find your way through the city, get eq, etc.  In fact I probably started Arm 2 or 3 times but since I could never find anyone that could help me, and back then couldn't tell a PC from an NPC for the life of me, I just left and then tried again later.

I remember when I first started I also found emotes and says here a little challenging, I was more used to the style of play where you just emoted and threw in quotation marks if you were saying something.  I think this may be in the docs somewhere but when trying to start a new game I generally don't read "help emote" right away.

Its just some of the things that make Arm so challenging to RP on and so rewarding (like very limited OOC, no global channels, the list goes on) also make for a difficult growing period where newbies get accustomed to the game.

[Bestatte]

I'm with Carnage on the main point (I'm assuming he actually had one, so let's take it from there mkay?).

The point is, regardless of what some people want to believe, it is -not- our responsibility as players to help newbies. I get a little tired of hearing it left and right. Helpers are helpers for a reason. Those of us who are not helpers, are not obligated to help newbies, and I really wish people would just get that through their thick skulls.

NOW...HAVING SAID THAT:

I help newbies when I encounter them, if someone else hasn't already taken it to task. If I'm logged in early in the morning (often) and see a newbie (occasionally) and no one else is around (usually) I will go out of my way to assist them however I can. I have nothing else to do at the moment in most cases anyway and it won't kill me to extend a kindness just for the hell of it.

I have spent countless hours in game, in IM, in PM, via E-mail assisting new players. I don't say this to get kudos or thanks..but rather to present to you that people who are -not- obligated to help, will often do so anyway simply because it can be a rewarding experience.

Some days I just wanna give up on a newbie. And some days - I do. Usually though I encounter intelligent players who are just confused or lost in the game world without a good grasp on things. Or as in the case of Aramaku's friend, someone who doesn't read or write English very well, who shows up brand spanking new to the game thinking to try something more challenging than is recommended even for fluent English-speaking newbies.

It won't kill us to take time out (if we're not neck deep in the middle of an assassination or something) to drag some poor newbie to a quiet corner and OOC our hearts out. An hour spent now will prevent several hours of dealing with the -still-clueless- newbie later.

But no, I will not accept that it's my responsibility to do so and I resent being told that it is. I do it because it makes me feel good to help. Not because someone tells me I have to. If someone wants this to become an actual responsibility they can damned will put "IMM" on my title. Til then, I'm just another player trying to enjoy myself and trying to help others enjoy themselves as well.

[Akaramu]

No one said it is anyone's responsibility, Bestatte. But, as a community, we do have a responsibility. The community as a whole needs to make sure our numbers dont decrease... we would all have a lot less fun if our numbers went down to 15 players at peak hours because every single newbie gets discouraged and gives up.

Basically I'm trying to say that those who care at least a little should try when no one else is around or willing to help out for a moment. The ones who dont care... leave the poor newbie alone, and dont discourage them.

Its a community thing, and no single person's responsibility.

Having said that, I really loved your wonderful emotes, Bestatte, when I was new, and in the progress of learning them.

[MA]

"Or as in the case of Aramaku's friend, someone who doesn't read or write English very well, who shows up brand spanking new to the game thinking to try something more challenging than is recommended even for fluent English-speaking newbies."

Well...  :oops: I did not think my English is -that- bad.

[Bestatte]

Actually it's better than some folks who post here, for whom English is their primary language. Don't be discouraged. Oh and make yourself an actual account here on the GDB (General Discussion Board) so people can send you a PM (Private Message)!

As for Aramaku's note that no one's talking about responsibility, it's been said previously. Not necessarily in this particular thread. I could just -smell- another one coming and figured I'd head it off at the pass.

Oh and thanks Aramaku. I have no idea who you played, but it's always good to hear that I was able to be of help to someone.

[Akaramu]

I know. I post too much. Its almost 10 PM and I have nothing better to do than circle above the forums like a vulture and wait for the next opportunity to post. I had the evening planned out but it was cancelled  

[Angela Christine]

The problem with elves and dwarves is that even if someone wants to help, they may not be able to communicate in character.  It is hard to communicate when the language filters are turning everything to gibberish.  OOC gets around that, but you can't use it for IC stuff.


I don't think restricting new accounts to human rangers or warriors would really help though.  Yes, the other races are harder to get by with.  Likewise theives and merchants and be difficult to get a handle on when you don't understand everything about the syntax and culture.  But new players would be discouraged by seeing they could only try a narrow range of rolls, I'm sure some are discouraged that they can't play magic-users, psions or scholars right off the bat.  (Scholar isn't a guild, but it is hard to pull off scholar without being able to read and write).  I certainly wasn't thrilled about having to play an illiterate bumkin.  Limited choices turns off as many potential players as choosing unwisely does.


As for this case, I think the 'Byn and Kurac are the only easy-to-find clans that openly hire elves.  It sounds like Kurac might be the best bet in this case.


AC

[Mar]

"..Oh and make yourself an actual account here on the GDB (General Discussion Board) so people can send you a PM (Private Message)!"

Err... sorry. I knew I forgot something. Thanks for pointing it out.
Maria

[Candi]

Maria sounds both sweet and intelligent.  After all, how many of us could do as well if we were communicating in a second language?
I commend you on your positive attitude.  You will fit in beautifully, and in time, this will just be a funny, cute story for you to pass on to a newbie who is asking you for help.  My AIM name is Sweetecandi.  Send me a PM with your AIM and I'll add you to my buddy list so you can see me.  I think Venomz is your best choice for a helper,  but I will be here for you nonetheless, even if it is just for moral support.  I also used to play Achaea and I can appreciate the vast differences and the time it takes to get adjusted.  I also followed Akaramu to Armageddon.  Maybe we should start a clan?  Oops...wrong game.  

[creeper386]

Well, I'd like to say, I was in no way trying to insult the new player, nor was I saying noone should help her.

But if you think Akaramu that they only way to help is IG? That's wrong. I'm sorry but that's not even NEARLY the best way to help a new player. And I'll still stick by the fact, that if your going to be bringing in new players, either you should be willing and able to help them, or make sure they are in contact with someone that can(A helper). Do NOT expect them to get help IG. Hell, expect them to get robbed, killed, enslaved and who knows what else IG, almost anything that could be on the opposite end of help.

I also tend to help people out even if it isn't the best opportunity to. I've done it in the past. I may not do it as much now but within the first five months of playing I've gotten a note on my account for helping new players. I may not have great experience, or even be a good RPer by some standards but I know my way around the website and I've been MUDing for along time. The best way to help a newbie most the time is to show them the documentation.

She knew that elves would be hard, yes. Good. She still picked it. Well that you can't blame on anyone else. She is lost in Allanak. There is at least a basic map of the main city. Make sure she knows here that is. Everyone dislikes her, she thinks other elves would be helpful? Make sure to point out the documentation. Elves from other tribes aren't going to be helpful.

No, you can't learn to RP from reading the docs really, but you CAN learn most any and all information you need to RP properly. The documentation covers what the world is about. Without that, no matter how much IG experience you have, you're going to be missing out on things.

If she read all of the docs, great, but thats not really the point. Help her know where things are so she can find them when she needs them. I wouldn't expect anyone to read, memorize and recall all of the docs when they first start, but it's FAR easier if they are familiar with most of the layout, so they can find information.

Again, I mean no insult or say the newbie person did/didn't do this or that. I'm just saying, that you shouldn't tell people that they need to stop and help a person when you yourself are better off to help them or at least to point them in the right direction for help. The people IG may not know the information to help, may have pressing IC business that they can't stop and help. Or are just having a bad day, or are Carnage( Couldn't help it. You know you're a role model still!)

Anyways, I'm done writting abunch of stuff that'll mostly get ignored. That's cool though. Got it out of my system.

Mar: Welcome to Armageddon. It's difficult. The world is harsh. The playerbase might be full of uncaring bastards, but it's a great place still!


Creeper doesn't really like cactus, and prefers live porcupine.

[Callisto]

I don't see the big deal.

If she didn't read the documentation and got frustrated by in-game experiences, I don't see why we should be subject to any obvious guilt campaign because of it. If a newbie elf happens to smile and OMG *huggles* >_< some elf hater, there is nothing that elf hater can do but hate the elf without corrupting his character concept.

We're a helpful community, we do make an effort to get newbies off on the right foot, but once you're in-game, you're subject to the same treatment as everyone else. It's just that simple.

[SykotikGith]

Maria:

I will be honest and say I don't know much about elves, but as far as the rest of the game goes, commands, the game itself, Allanak, merchants...whatever you need IM me and I will do what I can to get the info you need. I'm usually available, and if you can't find me on IM, *please* feel free to E-mail me, I try to give quick responses when I see them.

You sound really nice, and I know sometimes it feels like you're in over your head. There *are* people who can help you, and yes, there *are* people who are going to turn you down flat --(lotsa love Carnage)--, but that's all part of the friendly community here. We've got our grouches and our do-gooders, and a wide range of people in between. You learn to love some and find the grains of truth with the others.

I know I've got it listed at the bottom, but just to make it easier I'll give you my screennames and E-mail:
AIM: MyzticalDryaD
MSN: dark_aphrael@hotmail.com
ICQ#: 7921719
E-Mail: dark_aphrael@hotmail.com

And last but not least, WELCOME TO ARMAGEDDON!!!!

[Akaramu]

But if you think Akaramu that they only way to help is IG? That's wrong.

I read that and skipped the rest of your post. No, I dont think it is the only way, but I consider it far more important and effective than digging through the docs for RL days straight. I'm tired of people putting words in my mouth.

However, I give you credit for being about the only one to spell my name right.

[Forest Junkie]

No, I dont think it is the only way, but I consider it far more important and effective than digging through the docs for RL days straight.

You are wrong A-k-a-r-a-m-u. The docs are there for a reason. There is no other better way to understand the game than to -read the documentation set forth by the staff-. OOC should not be used to sit on your ass and have a conversation.

It should be use to:
>ooc Hey, check out this link, <insert link>, it has tons of info on the questions you are asking, and the docs will help you better understand your concept. Good luck friend =)

[Akaramu]

Its a fact that spending days reading theory does little for you. You'll forget half, even if you read it twice, or three times, mix up the details of the rest, forget where you read a particular bit of info, and overall be very confused.

I'm not dumb, but thats how it was like for me.

ANY teacher could tell you that learning by doing goes faster and sticks better than risking a headache by digging through theory only.

Of course OOC should be used as little as possible. A newbie's best bet is to have a helper on AIM and ask questions one by one as they slowly take their first steps. Including links to docs they read before, but forgot, or couldnt find again. And keep the OOC talk on AIM and out of the game.

[Delirium]

You're well-intentioned, but bending IC to help someone out can only go so far, which is what most of these people are trying to say. It is far more preferrable to be able to help them out in an OOC manner while keeping IC as much as possible.

That said, I remember when I first came to Armageddon, I had never even used a MUD client. I was using the telnet window and was having all sorts of problems, the "RPI" I'd come from had no focus on emotes, only socials, I had little concept of 'realistic' hunting, I went OOC -way- too much because I was having problems with syntax that I couldn't figure out despite searching the helpfiles.. basically what I'm trying to say is that we're ALL n00bs when we start, and it shouldn't be something to be ashamed of.

However, I also had the help files open in a separate window constantly when I played, for the first few weeks. Armageddon can have a tough learning curve that is pretty easy to forget once you've been around long enough to start shaking canes at people, but we as players can only do so much to help that newbie without bending over backwards and destroying the integrity of the RPI environment; a player who wants to get the hang of this game NEEDS to be willing to search the helpfiles and read that documentation. If it's clear that you're making an effort to find the answers to your questions in the docs before resorting to asking OOC ingame, you'll probably find that people are more willing to help you, because they can see that you're at least making an attempt.

That's my 3:30 am ramble.

[Akaramu]

I thought I pointed out that I was looking for ways to help out a little WITHOUT bending IC... I give up.

*sigh*

[Forest Junkie]

I thought I pointed out that I was looking for ways to help out a little WITHOUT bending IC... I give up.

Right.

No, I dont think it is the only way, but I consider it far more important and effective than digging through the docs for RL days straight. I'm tired of people putting words in my mouth.

Uhm...kay...

[SpyGuy]

I would like to say reading (most) of this forum inspired me to go out of my way to help a newbie I found.  With some use of the think command I think I validated the IC rationale and was also able to help a newbie get his stuff in order, well kinda.

Supporting newbie helping at 4 AM,
SpyGuy

[creeper386]

I read that and skipped the rest of your post. No, I dont think it is the only way, but I consider it far more important and effective than digging through the docs for RL days straight. I'm tired of people putting words in my mouth.

However, I give you credit for being about the only one to spell my name right.

I thought I pointed out that I was looking for ways to help out a little WITHOUT bending IC... I give up.

Well, first off, I give you:

I'm sorry but that's not even NEARLY the best way to help a new player. And I'll still stick by the fact, that if your going to be bringing in new players, either you should be willing and able to help them, or make sure they are in contact with someone that can(A helper). Do NOT expect them to get help IG.

Well, that gives a fair way to help newbies, or at least ones you bring to the game, with NO chance of breaking IC. You don't have to even be any where in the same region IG to help them this way. The best help for a newbie is on the outside of the game. That's why helpers are there. That's why this board is here, and that is why the documents are there. All OOC, all a great source of information. If it was best to learn IG, well, the documents wouldn't be nearly as extensive, Helpers!? Gone, as they are an out of game help.

Best way to help a newbie you run into in game? Well, no matter what, don't bend character. It doesn't help at all. Second, don't assume everything out of the norm or playing stupid characters is a newbie. Which I must say is another reason it's not a great thing to try and help IG, as some newbies are used to emoting and such so the only way to tell them apart is lack of knowledge. Some characters lack knowledge just as much as new players. If something can be handled quickly, go to the side, go OOC, and refer them to the helpers page, a helper's email/IM/whatever so they know someplace to go for further help if they need it.

And I well close with another quote of myself and alittle extra clarification:

The documentation covers what the world is about. Without that, no matter how much IG experience you have, you're going to be missing out on things

What exactly does that mean? It covers what is and isn't realistic. It covers things that may not be noticable on the visible level when playing(Elven/Dwarven Mindset). Experience and practice are great teachers, but you can't start there, and it'll only get you so far and that should be obvious rather you are talking RP or Brain Surgery. You'll start at references and books and documents. You'll go back to references and books and documents as you are practicing and training and gaining experience. Even when you've gained a life time of experience you go back to references and books and documents, if not to refresh your memory on some minor detail or clear up confusion, to learn new things that have been instituted.

[Bestatte]

It looks like Maria's been getting a lot of great advice and help lately, so I'm glad the thread was started. I think it's also great to see that so many people are willing to give -of their own free time- to help, whether they're helpers or not.

But just to affirm Creeper's thoughts (man Creeper, I'm agreeing with you again. Something is VERY sick and wrong here) :

In some cases, a simple ooc to remind someone of syntax is not going to kill ANYONE. I still need help with things sometimes too, and sometimes "time is of the essence" and I have to type -something- right away. Trying to look for the answer in the docs or help files might be futile if it's something that isn't listed (like help rope - hint hint to Sanvean)

In other cases, it's of greater benefit to both the newbie AND the other players to just refer the newbie to the docs. If it is clear that they don't understand something important, they will enjoy themselves MUCH MORE if they'd take their characters to a remote area of the game, or some semi-private area where there aren't any other PCs, and read the docs or helpfiles.

Interrupting RP because your thief character doesn't know who they're supposed to try and steal from can result in an hour-long OOC session. That is -not- fun for anyone who is logged into the game and trying to "be" their characters. Even the most benign requests can become a major headache if it takes you out of your RP for more than a minute or two.

You can't "blame" newbies for being newbies or unsure of their RP. You -can- blame them if they don't try to help themselves before asking for help.

I don't see Maria's situation as someone who didn't try. In fact, I saw her situation as someone who has tried very hard NOT to ask for help in-game, but instead to try to RP her character's confusion. Unfortunately it backfired on her and at the point this thread was started, she had become frustrated because she wanted to persevere and just wasn't sure how to go about it.

In my estimation (and observation of her character for brief moments) she did great. Started out "clueless" and was catching on splendidly. She just needed a little extra boost and someone to help her FIND the specific docs she needed to review, and an explanation of a couple of syntax issues.

If she had shown up and not even made an attempt to figure things out, I'd be in line for my turn with the flame-thrower. But I don't see this as the case at all.

[SykotikGith]

I've spoken with Maria, and I agree with Bestatte. She's a wonderful person, and I think she'll add a great deal to the game once she learns the ropes (help ropes = ask a helper!). She asks excellent questions, and doesn't need more than a quick explanation to get her started. She seems more than willing to use the docs, but I think she was overwhelmed by the amount of information she was getting. Once people started pointing her in directions, she started getting the right idea.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I thought I pointed out that I was looking for ways to help out a little WITHOUT bending IC... I give up.

*sigh*

I have helped many clueless newbies In-Game, because I find that despite the joys of Armageddon, helping others is the most rewarding experience of all.  Some of these newbies were elves, and that brings me to the point I'm trying to make.

Why the hell do so many people think its such a breach of IC to interact with elves?

I don't think the problem is that elves are hard for newbies to play, I think that the problem is that with the current situation in Allanak, there is no reward to be gained for anybody who wants to try their hand at  playing an elf.

I'll quote Rindan and repeat that Allanak is the land of silk and guard uniforms.  In the scheme of things, there is no place for the player of an elf.  There is no City Elf Tribe that can be joined.  Since the vast majority of the playerbase has all there needs cared for, they certainly don't need anything from an elf.  To me, this is deeply wrong.

To make things worse, many people handle prejudice very poorly.  I remember witnessing a moment where two warrior-types in House uniform walked into the Barrel and sat down at the bar, where an elf was sitting.  They ordered the elf to leave, and he ignored them.  So they stood up and DREW THEIR WEAPONS ON HIM.  OOCly, this pissed me off so much that I actually went up and put a stop to it.  This is wrong because they were in a tavern where countless virtual elves were.  If elves were really that offensive to them, they should have gone to the Trader's.  This is also wrong because the staff of the tavern would be unlikely to allow people to break the law and arbitrarily drive off their paying customers.

The fact is, elves are the second most prominent race in the cities.  In the desert, they could probably be said to be the dominant race.  A high-ranking Oashi might get away with refusing to deal with elves, but the average commoner isn't going to survive unless he learns to at least tolerate them if not accept them.  It says in the documentation that elves are distrusted.  I don't think that's the same as blatant and uncompromising hatred.

I remember sometime earlier when a newbie elf wandered into the Barrel, and there was an Oash noble and a bunch of other rich people hanging out there, instead of in the Trader's where they ought to have been.  My character was just a dirty commoner, and I ended up helping the elf out as best as I could.  I justified it by making my character want to fuck her (he basically wanted to fuck anything with a hole in it), and made sure that she knew what her races lot in life was.

So yes, if I saw that newbie elf wandering around cluelessly then I would have found a way to help them ICly.  And most likely, I wouldn't even consider it a breach of character.

[Forest Junkie]

The fact is, elves are the second most prominent race in the cities.  In the desert, they could probably be said to be the dominant race.  A high-ranking Oashi might get away with refusing to deal with elves, but the average commoner isn't going to survive unless he learns to at least tolerate them if not accept them.  It says in the documentation that elves are distrusted.  I don't think that's the same as blatant and uncompromising hatred.

Thank you so much. I have argued this point forever, and now I find someone who freaking agrees. Elves are not a disease, and should not be so spit upon as they are, IMO.