Combat improvements...Stamina

[Agent_137]

A split off from combat improvements discussion on page 8.

Stamina should drop when fighting. Anytime you EXERT yourself, your stamina should drop because you become TIRED. I was incredibly surprised when I first started playing arma because I didn't lose stamina by fighting. Of course, the disadvantage to this is the PC has so little control over the actual fight. One could easily assume that your character is automatically fighting only enough to not wear himself out, and thus while fighting might drain his stamina, he controls it himself to where it becomes a non-issue. Therefore, I propose that stamina should only be drained in combat once the PLAYER has the option of when to strike with his weapon. Then the player could gauge how many strikes to make and when in reference to his stamina and the need to kill the other guy. But as it stands, having stamina drain you would be absurd with no control.

[Anonymous]

This is a playability being greater than realism issue for me.  Desert elves would rule over everyone in a fight, needing only to last until the other person can't run, then take a step back and pepper them with arrows.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I somewhat agree. And on that note, actually, desert elves would not rule over everyone. Sandcloth is in the game because it is the gear of choice for a desert traveler. Keep this in mind. I do think that you should lose stamina in a battle, but I think it should be racially porportioned. Dwarves, muls, and half-giants should lose little. In fact, elves should lose the most, proceeded only by halflings and maybe gith. Humans and half-elves should sit near the middle of the spectrum.

[UnderSeven]

I agree one hundred percent, playability for realism is a balance to be kept.  There are a LOT of playablility factors tat could get in game.  Random disease that kills you like plague.  Having to go to the bathroom, losing limbs if you get hit to hard in combat.  These things would ALL be realistic but they would also suck to have in game.  Losing Stanima is one of these things.

[Agent_137]

Normally I agree with your idea, venomz, but why the hell should stamina loss in combat be related to race?!?!

You have a stamina stat! Loss of stamina should be related to IT and what the hell you are doing.

If you are a skinny puny elf swinging the twohanded blunt lotilus, yea, you'll tire pretty fast, but you got a big store of it, but if you swing too much too fast, you'll drop from fatigue.

If you are a dwarf swinging the same lotilus, then you won't tire as fast because you are buff and tough, and hell, you even have a huge pool of stamina because you're one stout mofo. So it's a good weapon for you, not for the elf. You might not want to swing it a whole lot of times without stopping, though, because you'll still drop.

But all this depends on the player making choices by balacing their characters stamina and the need for speed. Until THIS is implemented, you MUST assume that this choice is handled automatically by your character.

I would like one day to decide to make one final swing that I know will collapse me in fatigue when I complete it, but also finish off that bastard lying on the ground moaning and disarmed. That way i can collapse in fatigue on my fallen enemy's bloody corpse.

[Anonymous]

I think this would be too much...I agree that for playability's sake this is a bad idea.

[Carnage]

If you're going to take out more stamina for bigger, two-handed weapons, than they need to be revamped to make them much more worthwhile. As of now, dual wield > two handed.

[spawnloser]

Carnage, I'm pretty sure that you're just thinking about how those work OOC.  I know people that two-hand things and whup shit up just as good as someone with two weapons.

Agent, you're missing the point that, although thin, elves have a good amount of stamina compared to a human.

I'm with everyone that says this is a playability vs realism issue.  What next, when you run out of stamina, you stop fighting back?

[EvilRoeSlade]

Elves, who don't use kanks, would be hurt most by this.  In most situations, those playing other races would be unaffected.

I support this idea, but only as a compliment to the dehydration code.  When you run out of stamina, you still have your mount.  Unless you're an idiot who left the gates without one, it's not yet curtains for you.  However, if you need water and you get in a fight, then you're gonna go down.  It would be harder to play desert elves, but they'd just have to capitalize on their marginal stamina bonus (Last time I checked, they have about 20 more than dwarves on average) and wear lots of sandcloth.

Anything that promotes lightweight, heat resistant gear over heavy obsidian armor is a good thing.

[Carnage]

Carnage, I'm pretty sure that you're just thinking about how those work OOC. I know people that two-hand things and whup shit up just as good as someone with two weapons.

Great! Second-person/anecdotal evidence, the most reliable kind!

It's not about 'whupping shit up'. It's about defense and offense. I'd speak about the differences and my experience, but it'll be insta-editted within three seconds for too much info about the code.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I'll add that I hold no stock in the playability versus realism arguement.

I've played a mud where you can't craft an item without possessing every tool you would need to make it, and combat generally doesn't last past three to five hits.

Suprisingly enough, the mud functions quite well.

[X-D]

Well, At least it would not hurt most half-giants much, and muls and dwarves would be pretty well off.

Me, I'm against it, but mostly because of npcs, most of which have huge stamina pools, rest very quickly, no lag on skills, so even if you do fight one for a while then run away, run out of stamina and rest, it will get stamina back faster and track you down no fail if it is the tracking type.

So, for playability and the fact that many other things would have to be fixed/dealt with first, I'm gonna say no.

[Agent_137]

Ok, some people misunderstand me. I am saying only make stamina an issue in combat if prior major changes are made to the way combat functions. Stamina involved in combat makes sense and is a good addition of the rest of your combat code works well with it.

The current combat code is completely incombatibale with the idea of stamina draining as you fight. Therefore, it should not be implemented.

[Bogre]

I somewhat agree. And on that note, actually, desert elves would not rule over everyone. Sandcloth is in the game because it is the gear of choice for a desert traveler. Keep this in mind. I do think that you should lose stamina in a battle, but I think it should be racially porportioned. Dwarves, muls, and half-giants should lose little. In fact, elves should lose the most, proceeded only by halflings and maybe gith. Humans and half-elves should sit near the middle of the spectrum.

Mmmm hmm. Then Desert Elves wearing sandcloth would rule everyone.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I somewhat agree. And on that note, actually, desert elves would not rule over everyone. Sandcloth is in the game because it is the gear of choice for a desert traveler. Keep this in mind. I do think that you should lose stamina in a battle, but I think it should be racially porportioned. Dwarves, muls, and half-giants should lose little. In fact, elves should lose the most, proceeded only by halflings and maybe gith. Humans and half-elves should sit near the middle of the spectrum.

Mmmm hmm. Then Desert Elves wearing sandcloth would rule everyone.

Agreed. Unless, of course, they've been running, as elves tend to do. Also, in a combat, they would be wise to perhaps flee quickly in many instances, since not only would blows strike harder due to their lighter armor, but also, they would lose more stamina if using a heavy weapon.

[Morrolan]

Okay, a few ideas, and I will be the first to admit that I did not read every line of this thread...

1) Stamina loss per attack (pais fo attacks) based on encumberance.

2) Fighting at 0 stamina is possible...but carries penalties.

Now, personally, I would hate this...unless one gets training somewhere, combat is already quite deadly enough.  On the other hand, it would be pretty cool.

Morrolan

[Mr.Camel]

How about fighting at 0 stamina is possible, but costs a slow loss of stun points?

[gfair]

I've seen this thread mentioned before, and I always laugh when I see people talking about how D-elfs would rule.  They have the highest movement points, so from a one-dimensional perspective they might do well.

Combat endurance has, at its most basic level, three key elements:

- Strength
- Stamina
- Fight style

Fighting styles, if you know a lot about martial arts, is an area of huge debate.  Zalanthas has two major fighting styles, North and South.  Why does fight style make such a difference? It makes the difference because of leverage, simple mechanics of the amount of energy expended in each move.  A martial art with a lot of intricate forms, spins, kicks, roundhouse maneuvers, etc, expends a lot of energy, certainly a lot more than a linear art based mostly on two feet, nothing fancy, just straight punches, low kicks, things like that.

So the levers, the mechanics of a style have a great deal to do with how tired one gets, that trades off with effectiveness, effectiveness in any given style is only a product of the goals of the style when originally designed.  Which is more effective, North or South? Or do they basically just counter each other out?

Add strength  to the mix - a weak fighter has to expend more energy against a stronger one to keep from getting hurt.  A smaller opponent needs to dodge farther, risk more to get within range.

So will d-elfs rule combat? Heck no! How will they do against, say, a human? They trade endurance for strength, not exactly a major advantage.  D-elfs get agility over humans though, but they have that already.  How about half-elfs? I think they would have an advantage here, they do even now against most humanoids in the agility department.  City elf - no advantage.  Dwarf - they give up lots of strength and huge endurance to Dwarves, so they lose here.  Mul - same as Dwarf.  HG - Same as Mul, Dwarf. Halfling - more str, not sure about endurance, Halflings are not likely to be able to beat d-elf endurance, but they have the advantage in agility.

Overall - endurance drain makes fighting much more realistic, and I would much rather see it added than not.  No race will dominate fighting, because it's balanced, just like no one race dominates right now. There are so many factors involved in combat, that just looking at racial code endurance ignores the other significant factors:  strength, fight style, skill level, damage taken, activity prior to the fight (i.e. long run, just woke up, hauling a heavy pack).

Nobody will have any advantage other than the ones that existed without endurance loss.  The struggle of nature continues with all realism, and yet predator and prey are never overbalanced until Man steps in, it should be no different with humanoids in the game, the game is balanced now, balanced endurance drain code is as it says: balanced. Who ever said d-elfs are the most optimized humanoid fighting race?

[Angela Christine]

Delves would be as likely to get supremely screwed by this as to get any benefit from it.  Well, Delves and other non-riders, which includes many half-giants and some others.

When I'm riding and I see a fight comming I don't just dismount, I rest my kank.  I have my full stamina, because I've been riding, and my kank is actually regenerating while I fight.  If things are not going well, I can jump up on my rested kank and get the hell out of there.  If I got attacked unexpectedly I won't be able to rest my kank, but I'll still have my full pool of stamina plus the option to use my kank's remaining stamina for travel if I need to flee.

If I am on foot and have time to prepare for a fight, then I may take the time to sit and rest for a while before engaging,so I get into the fight with near full stamina.  It depends on the weather to some extent, there is little point in sitting on top a sand dune trying to rest durring a storm.  If I didn't see it comming then I have whatever stamina I happened to have left, and if I was near to a favorite shady rest spot my stamina may be low.  In either case, if I decide I need to run away I'll be in a tougher spot than a rider, even if I'm a delf, because I'll only have my own stamina to depend on.


AC

[John]

Mmmm hmm. Then Desert Elves wearing sandcloth would rule everyone.

D-Elves are powerful cause they can run. Humans are powerful cause of their strength. If a D-Elf keeps avoiding a human's blows, they're going to lose stamina a lot quicker then a slow human. So a human that can defend himself well, is going to be able to protect himself long enough against a D-Elf. If a human gets lots of blows in quickly at the start, then they'll also have the advantage. Just depends how well the fighters are.

I'm for it Considering for the first 6months of playing Arm I thought this was how it worked, I'm for it I think the code for NPCs would be modified after it was implemented pretty quickly.

That's what I love about these arguments and those who say NPCs will have too much advantage. NPCs have been, and can be constantly changed. They haven't existed in their current form since the beginning of the mud, so why wouldn't they continue to be changed as the mud progresses?

As a comrpomise. Have attacks against arms and legs lose stamina and not HP. Just a thought.

[UnderSeven]

Something to keep in mind is when something new is implemented into the game it results in a period where it is being tested and on some cases the playerbase being the test subject.

Case in point, the npc scripts,  they've been brought up a lot lately, I personally lost a char to them a while ago and emailed the mud about it.  That means that if we agree they are more or less broken, than we'v ehad broken npc scripts for months at least.  This can cost players as well.  

So before you even consider what new improvements to put in you should consider how complex the balancing of it will be.  First off the npcs basically stand around all day, do no need to worry about eating or drinking in the desert or going anywhere, infact they don't even need to worry about dying.  Therefore every single fight they get involved in they can give it their all, they have nothing to lose, nothing to conserve.  Now if you consider your average pc will have to worry about hunger, thirst, going somehwere and conserving. than there is a HUGE balance issue right there, you run into two npcs in a row, both willing to give every fight their all and all of a sudden travel becomes impossible.

Of course there could be a fix, make npcs pay attention to their stanima, but this would surely also introduce another new set of problems.

Point? Will this improve the game? Will this make the game more fun? More realistic.

Well improve the game is really an equation to be considered, a rather complex one.  This equation includes playbility and working code.

Frankly I think this idea is more realistic yes, less playable and likely to be more trouble and problems than it's worth.  MAYBE implementing it in the long run would be cool (and I mean years down the line when every little problem is finally ironed out) but in the short run I can think of COUNTLESS more worthwhile things to implement that the staff probably have on their to do list.

[jhunter]

Frankly I think this idea is more realistic yes, less playable and likely to be more trouble and problems than it's worth. MAYBE implementing it in the long run would be cool (and I mean years down the line when every little problem is finally ironed out) but in the short run I can think of COUNTLESS more worthwhile things to implement that the staff probably have on their to do list.

My opinion as well.

[Anonymous]

I want my PC to die because his HPs ran out, not because his stamina ran out.

If this idea was implemented it wold create an impetus for people to find even more questionable ways to kill someone quickly.

> subdue dude
You subdue the tall dude despite his attempts to get away.

> put dude kank
You mount the tall dude atop a kank

> kill dude
A green kank throws the tall dude off of its back.

Seriously, I despise any talk of involving stamina in a fight because there will be no getaways.  How much fun would it be to flee and not be able to move one damn room to get back to your kank as a human?

Secondly a rested desert elf could fight you till you were too tired, flee with his extra stamina and just take potshots at you.

This is the sort of realism this game doesn't need, right along with permanent limb loss, cripplings and the like.

[Forest Junkie]

This is a horrible idea.

1) Desert elves would be -fucked- by it. We already have tons of ways to twink out and spam run them down, why add another option?

2) Playability vs. Realism: As others have pointed out, this has the potential to make the game unbearable playable for a desert type.

3) Even if this -were- implemented, mvs loss should not be attributed to race. This is merely -another- way to fuck over non-riders such as hg's or desert elves. It would only be fair to have everyone lose the same percentage of mvs in a fight. If this were not so, what is the point of having more mvs than that human if they can just hop on their bug and mow you over?

It just won't work. No to mvs loss in combat, period.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

But don't you think this would introduce fighting styles to the game? I mean, should a lone d-elf really stand toe-to-toe with a dwarf? I mean, maybe they'll try those arrows out, hmmmm?

[Forest Junkie]

But don't you think this would introduce fighting styles to the game? I mean, should a lone d-elf really stand toe-to-toe with a dwarf? I mean, maybe they'll try those arrows out, hmmmm?

Why would a d-elf not be allowed to go one on one with a dwarf, if they are skilled enough? Their speed alone gives them a godly advantage, allowing them to pepper said dwarf with a ton of blows.

In answer to your q, though, I say no. It would not introduce new fighting styles into the game. It would introduce ooc strategies to deal with your foes, IMO.

[John]

I have one question.

Would this fuck over D-Elves or make them too buff?

Seems everyone has a different opinion, so I personally think that argument is flawed (considering everyone can't agree on what effect it has).

[Angela Christine]

It depends on the situation.  

It isn't just delves vs. everybody else, because anyone can be travelling on foot.  In general half-giants and dwarves might have slightly higher natural stamina than humans and half-elves, because they usually have higher strength and endurance.  Clothes have a huge effect too, it is easy to get over 150 if you dress all in sandcloth.  Low strength characters (like elves and half-elves) are more likely to wear sandcloth, simply because they can't wear heavy armor without taking penalties.  

If you get attacked unexpectedly by some beastie, the pedestrian has an advantage.  He is already on the ground and has his weapons out, while the rider will be taking hard hits until he dismounts or falls off his kank.  Same as now.

If you get into a fight and want to flee half way through (or the other guy does) then the riders will probably be in better shape to make a clean get away or chase down a cowardly runner, because the mount's stamina is unimpared.

If you want to stand and fight?  That would depend on how close the pedestrian was to his rest spot.  A fully rested delf or half-giant dressed in sandcloth could have an advantage over a heavily armored human, just hold out until the human colapses from exhaustion.  But if the pedestrian was on his way to his rest spot and had already lost half his stamina, then he would be in trouble no matter what race he is.

Location, location, location!  If you are inside a city, slum or undercity, then chances are that everyone will be on foot, so those with naturally higher stamina will have an advantage.  The dynamics in the middle of nowhere will be different than in wilderness right near a civilized location.

In conclusion, I don't know.


AC

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

In answer to your q, though, I say no. It would not introduce new fighting styles into the game. It would introduce ooc strategies to deal with your foes, IMO.

Uhm...

Nevermind, I like you.

[Agent_137]

Forget the delves for a moment, it's not important to the stamina discussion.

The vital heart here is that the current combat system is not developed enough to incorporate stamina. While Armageddon could stand for a more intricate combat system which *should* involve becoming fatigued by movement in battle, this restriction should not come without options and choices and fun stuff along for the ride.

Combat should not become more of a pain in the ass unless I get more options and choices in combat to balance the new difficulty.