Murder. Corruption. Betrayal.

[ShaLeah]

Per an IRC discussion early this morning:

<ShaLeah> No one understands me.
* Languid whipes ShaLeah.

Wait... just kidding, wrong log.  

Quite a few people made mention that they thought the level of harshness in the game has lessened some.  
Can we open a topic of discussion about this that doesn't degrade into a flame or is seen as a flame?  I don't want people taking this the wrong way so I'll clarify, this is not an attack on the game, this is a genuine topic of interest among players that comes up over and over again.

Do you think Armageddon has lost some of its brutality?


ShaLeah
-who thinks it has and will add her two sid after she comes back from shopping.

[Dan]

When I first started playing there was so much corruption you could cut out a chunk of it from the air.

There -is- less murder, corruption, and betrayal.

I would give examples, but said examples would probably offend some people.

[naatok]

I don't think the world has lost alot of its brutal harshness.

What I do think is that PCs are more cautious and fearful than they used to be.  In the good 'ole days, people would travel ALONE in the wastes and get slaughtered in droves.  Players are more aware of the dangers of travel in Zalanthas and thus, are more cautious about how they do it...and when...and with whom.

Within the cities and other communities, PCs are more likely to scratch out a meager existence, keeping themselves barely above destitution in order to avoid putting themselves greatly at risk in order to gain a few 'sid more.

More PCs are employed now than ever before because going it alone is a VERY nasty, brutish and short way of life.  At least...for inexperienced people.

There is more of an actual ECONOMY in Zalanthas now, with various PCs and clans of PCs fueling the fires of economic growth and prosperity...working for Merchant Great houses and other groups to get a cut of the 'sid for themselves as merchants, traders, soldiers spies and informants.

From what I remember, that was all part of the grand staff design, and in my opinion it has worked rather well.  There are a plethora of craftable items now that PCs can make in order to sell and trade.  Merchant Great houses are more active now, with more employees scattered across the Known World.  Noble Houses too, are more active than ever before.  There's far more plotting, scheming and dealing going on in the world than ever before.

Yes, there's plenty of opportunity for folks to die in Zalanthas.  Now, however, there's also more opportunity for PCs to live and die in relative comfort...or at lease -some- comfort, without having to go out scavenging alone in the wastes for gith gear or other such.

IMHO it is still a very harsh, brutal world.  It's just a more realistic one now.  The old, stock H&S Diku way of doing things is almost completely gone in ArmageddonMud, and I think we'll all agree that is a GOOD thing!

[2 late 2 login ShaL]

Easier survival is one of the things that makes it less harsh.  

[Bestatte]

I didn't play a few years ago so I have no idea if it's harsher or not. But there's no option for that in the poll so I can't cast a vote.

I see some aspects harsher than when I first started playing, and some aspects less harsh.

Most of my characters have been fairly long-lived (near or over 20 days playing time) but I don't credit that with the game being easy or not brutal enough. And so far, none of my characters have ever been killed by a critter. I also don't credit (or blame) the game or other characters for that. Mostly I credit my own cowardice, because scary monsters are scary so I tend to err on the side of caution

[Anonymous]

Depends.

There is definitely less PC on PC harshness from what I've seen.  At least out in the desert.  I think some changes recently will allow for more of that.

I would rather see more meaningful PC conflict than harshness in the form of:

A huge black beetle has arrived from the west
A huge black beetle has arrived from the west
A dark-shelled scrab has arrived from the west
A silt-horror has arrived from the west
A hooked-beak silt-flyer has arrived from the west

And I'm very hopeful that this will soon become the case.

[UnderSeven]

It was better back in the day posts are always comming up.  I agree with naatok. People just used to travel more.  I have to say the chars of mine that took chances have died, betrayal does still happen.  Long lived chars will tend to be the city aide types not really involved in pissing people off much I think.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Within the cities and other communities, PCs are more likely to scratch out a meager existence, keeping themselves barely above destitution in order to avoid putting themselves greatly at risk in order to gain a few 'sid more.

More PCs are employed now than ever before because going it alone is a VERY nasty, brutish and short way of life.  At least...for inexperienced people.

That's not what I've been seeing.  From what I've observed, almost all of the playerbase in Allanak is an employee of a House, either noble or merchant.  They have no worries of survival, and they never really do anything dangerous.  Guards are even allowed to get pregnant, despite the fact that this is obviously detracting from their utility.  I blame this on the Atrium, which has had a pervasive and noticable effect on the playerbase since it was created.  I used to get turned down when I tried to get a job at a noble house.  Unfortunately, that was over a year ago, and these days getting turned down just doesn't happen.

The focus has gone away from bloody conflict, and blasphemously towards political conflict.  Political conflict is all well and good, but there are a lot of characters that aren't suitable to be involved in political conflict between noble houses.  The game HAS to accomodate them.  A half-giant isn't going to be asked to plot against anybody, whether they're in a House uniform or not.  What about them?  Most rinthers and elves won't have an opportunity to enter the plot of House X versus House Y.  What about them?  What about unclanned magickers?  What about escaped muls?  What about waste-weary rangers?  They all haven't magickally disappeared.  What are they to do?

Personally, I'm not very interested in political conflict.  There was once a templar whose focus was definitely geared toward bloody conflict.  Of course, there were inevetible political melees that came with the job, but when those came up he simply asked other people for advice and followed that advice.  His mind was straightforward and blunt.  He couldn't grasp the curves and edges of petty politics.  But he had a good grasp of tactics, and could swing a weapon like nobodies business.  My point is, that I am that strong-willed templar.  I am the unclean street thug.  I am the escaped mul.  I am the powerful half-giant.  Don't leave me behind.  I can make you regret it.

[X-D]

I don't know about the rest of zalanthas, but the area I'm currently playing in has tons of murder, corruption and betrayal, more really then just two years ago.

One of the things I've been enjoying is the fact that even two years ago most pc's died from critters, now, a far larger percentage die from pc's, at least in this area.

The wilderness is still plenty deadly, it just may take a little longer, a player may have to roam a bit farther from the city.

[gfair]

Less murder? No.

Less corruption? Broad topic, what kind of corruption?  Maybe in some areas.

Less betrayal? Again, huge topic, what kind of betrayal?  In general, quite likely yes.

All I want is the harsh 'Nakki Templars again, and that's enough Murder, Corruption and Betrayal for me.

But I ca think of a few huge examples of murder and betrayal and corruption, not all mutually exclusive, that have come up recently.  Arm isn't tamer, it just isn't seeing the MCB aspects played out as much, that we see, but it's never left either.

[Hikertrash]

Can't really speak for years past but my most recent character was cut down in the streets of 'Nak ... not sure what is was all about but racial animosity is how I viewed it.

That seems pretty harsh to me  :roll:

[John]

From what I've observed, almost all of the playerbase in Allanak is an employee of a House

Unless things have changed drastically, there were plenty of obsidian hunters in Allanak.

I used to get turned down when I tried to get a job at a noble house.  Unfortunately, that was over a year ago, and these days getting turned down just doesn't happen.

I've seen quite a few turned down. Mostly half-elves.

That's the one thing I want to see changed. How half-breed are treated. Because right now they're treated as good as people  :roll: I know I harp on about this, but damnit! They're the scum of the universe and people say "sorry" and "please" and "thankyou" to them  :evil: And they're not being sarcastic.

[sacac]

Well, I played a couple years ago for a couple months.
When I had four characters in total, they both died to strange and very brutal deaths and pissed me off.

now, my first four characters in octobre(?) Died damn near the same way..
My character before this one, died an amazingly brutal death.


So I don't think it has, maybe it is actually the players way of thinking.

Because you have become used to the harshness and therefor you are not seeing it as good as the ol' days.

[UnderSeven]

If anything I'd say the game actually became MORE harsh.  Lets see.  If you dive farther back, npcs used to not have move points, so they could chase you forever (clearly this made the game less harsh).

Okay, not so far back, the caps on skills players could reach were, higher, while very few likely ever saw the higher skill regions, the players skill growth was capped so the uber chars weren't so incredibly unfairly powerful compared to everyone else (think that was why) anyway, the npcs didn't get caps too (so while this makes pc vs pc action possibly less harsh, it makes npc vs pc action more harsh).

 What else..  The gith now actually work together, have self preservation and will try to use ranged attacks.  So they're smarter and much more of a threat than they used to be.  Npcs have scripts now that let them use special attacks (some of which are based on randomization and therefore allows them to use these special attacks in a row without delay untill you're dead).  

I actually think these days it's managed to get more deadly and stupid to do certain things.  Has the game gotten less harsh? I'd say not in the least, what has happened is players are doing more of the political thing.  And I don't thik it's less harsh, I just think the intruige is done more behind closed doors.

[Tarx04]

I've seen quite a few turned down. Mostly half-elves.

That's the one thing I want to see changed. How half-breed are treated. Because right now they're treated as good as people  :roll: I know I harp on about this, but damnit! They're the scum of the universe and people say "sorry" and "please" and "thankyou" to them  :evil: And they're not being sarcastic.

Treated as good as people?  I dunno 'bout that one, mate.  I have -very- rarely seen half-elves treated well, and I mostly log on during 'nak peak hours...some other times, too.  The people that my character hang around also despise elves and half-breeds.  Truth is, I am confident that a half-elf that looks supicious will be killed within RL days of logging into 'nak.  The ones that don't just get abused, and poor service I guess.

[UnderSeven]

Also depends on who the half elf is.  EVEN half elves can get into positions of power where it might be a bad idea to piss them off.  Yes and even these half elves tend to get treated poorly if the right people, who couldn't give a damn about who they are mis treating are.

The problem with going out of your way to abuse half elves and elves and muls and other pcs you see of these disciminated races is that to do so you probably are overlooking vnpcs.  

In the event that you treat one poorly when you interact with them, that makes sense, if you ignore them, that makes sense.

If you are saying people should go out of their way to give them dirty looks, or to even sometimes do it, you're going a little far.  Why? because THEY'RE EVERYWHERE.  So unless you want to emote being a prick to vnpcs constantly, I think it's plenty realistic to just ignore most of them.

[jmordetsky]

I think the cities are less dangerous, but the outdoors are still troublesome.

As for elven and half-elven hatred. My last naki character didn't see that much half-breed descrimination. But elves are still very much hated in 'nak.

[deviant storm]

After my last character, I can safely say there is a good deal of plotting going on. And yes, some of it is bloody. And I'm not just talking house versus house, but plots between peoples, and using underlings....Can't say more without spilling the IC beans.

To those who say Arm isn't harsh, I say "There is more going on than you know about." Just like Hallaster once said.

Besides, you can always start something yourself. Hire the guy down the road to kill that elf you really hate. Or something.  :twisted:

[John]

The people that my character hang around also despise elves and half-breeds.  Truth is, I am confident that a half-elf that looks supicious will be killed within RL days of logging into 'nak.  The ones that don't just get abused, and poor service I guess.

I can say that certainly didn't happen. I logged on expecting to be treated like dirt, I was treated kindly every time I interacted with someone.

The 1 time I wasn't was when I tried to offer my services as a whore to a male dwarf (so it could of been OOC homaphobic tendencies, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say it was cause I was a half-breed ). That was the ONLY time I was treated horribly. I certainly wasn't powerful, I hung around the Gaj.

I don't expect to go in a room and to be spat on by every PC. But I'd talk to people and they were as nice as anything. I wasn't ignored, I was treated like a human. And I was short, with round ears and almond eyes and half-elf in my sdesc Everyone knew I was a half-elf.

[Anonymous]

The problem with going out of your way to abuse half elves and elves and muls and other pcs you see of these disciminated races is that to do so you probably are overlooking vnpcs.

Oh man..c'mon.  Let the VNPC racists take care of discriminating against the VNPC minorities.  I think VNPC's and NPCs need to be included in your roleplay and certainly not ignored, but interacting with any VNPC is a very hollow experience.  Certainly someone who roleplays hating elves to the point that they won't trade or deal with them shouldn't suddenly be deciding that one elf merchant NPC is one of the few good elves.  But I reject the notion that I can't give that elf down the bar a hard time because I haven't filled my quota of emoting out throwing ale at the mangy, suspicious-looking elven VNPC.

I've never liked the 'but what about VNPCs' argument used by victims of racism or unfair treatment.

[ShaLeah]

Hire the guy down the road to kill that elf you really hate.

I can tell you from experience that it's not as simple as just hiring someone.  I, for one, have been accused of being too quick to jump the assassination wagon.  I admit it, the first thought in my characters minds when an nuisance becomes a constant annoyance is to kill them, hell... just the potential in becoming a constant annoyance is sometimes enough to make assassination a very attractive option.  My assassinations have been stopped by higher ups and even assassinations paid for have been conveniently forgotten or ignored.

It's been discussed that perhaps learning the games ins and outs aids in the feeling that things are not as brutal as they once were and I agree with that to a certain extent, but I think that we sacrifice a lot of brutality in order to have a more welcome playability, in order to entice new players and keep them.

All I want is the harsh 'Nakki Templars again, and that's enough Murder, Corruption and Betrayal for me.

Amen. In fairness, I haven't been to Allanak in a while but when last I remember a Templar being despised and feared was a certain blood sucking robe-wearer who had people in hiding.  Hiding. Leaving the city to save their skin... -that- is what I wish more templars were like. That is what I call an impact.  Hell, my character never met them but was teetering so much between curiosity and fear that she hid too.  A public whipping, an elf hunt or two. Mean, evil, corrupted templars rock.  Make me scared. Please.

Maybe what I'm looking for is a more public sense of danger, more arena games, public executions, public dismemberments, a more public demand of respect, especially with the Law, be it templarate and militia too to an extent.  Maybe seeing bad things happen to normal people will make me change my mind.

[EvilRoeSlade]

In fairness, I haven't been to Allanak in a while but when last I remember a Templar being despised and feared was a certain blood sucking robe-wearer who had people in hiding.  Hiding. Leaving the city to save their skin... -that- is what I wish more templars were like. That is what I call an impact.  Hell, my character never met them but was teetering so much between curiosity and fear that she hid too.  A public whipping, an elf hunt or two. Mean, evil, corrupted templars rock.  Make me scared. Please.

A templar's job isn't to make people leave the city.  Any blue-robe that is accomplishing that is obviously stepping far out of their bounds of power, and transgressing the bounds of realsim.  I don't understand why people want templars to kill there characters despite the fact that it wouldn't be a normal or realistic occurance.  Grow up.  Conflict that is so one-sided is rare for a reason:  The obviously superior force of the conflict already has control of the situation, and violence isn't required at that point.  If the bottom rung of the ladder tries to go up a notch, it's a templars job to make sure that they fail.  Other than that, it isn't necessary for templars to slaughter people wantonly.

The kind of conflict that interests me more is conflict for people that are competing for survival.  Resources are scarce.  Two tribes or gangs having a territorial war is more interesting to me than two noble houses competing for standing when the standing is already set in the documentation and isn't likely to change.  Ever.

[ShaLeah]

... it isn't necessary for templars to slaughter people wantonly.

No one said anything about necessity.  Desire and need are two vastly different things and personally, I'll admire whomever strikes a chord within me, in the case of Allanaki templars, I can only speak of the ones who were memorable for -me-.  Sure other people did a decent job, created jobs for PC's, were more deeply involved in politics, were more respected... I'm by no means saying that those people didn't do a good job, I am saying, that for me, read, -me-, the memorable ones are the ones who make my characters fear.

Senseless slaughtering has nothing to do with it, the ability to create a fearful mood does. A certain Red Robe a while back instilled fear and I can say that I never saw him kill anyone in public, yet when he walked into the room, people reacted, people fled, people kissed ass.

I didn't say -you- had to agree. I am stating some of the reasons why I believe brutality has softened on Arm. Agree, or disagree.

Grow up.

Indeed.

[jhunter]

I would rather see more meaningful PC conflict than harshness in the form of:

A huge black beetle has arrived from the west
A huge black beetle has arrived from the west
A dark-shelled scrab has arrived from the west
A silt-horror has arrived from the west
A hooked-beak silt-flyer has arrived from the west

I agree with this completely, as far as coded dangers go, (and others have mentioned before) I'd rather see other dangers besides just burly npcs or large groups of npcs.

There seems to be alot less pvp conflicts than there used to be and I'd rather there was alot more as well. My current char isn't one who'd start such things, maybe a future one. I think part of this reduced pvp conflict could be fixed by allowing people to start/arrange certain types of groups OOC, I understand the reasoning why it is discouraged but, I'd rather see more of these sort of groups around for chars to worry about.

Down with more nasty npcs, up with pc villians and other coded dangers!

[John]

I agree with this completely, as far as coded dangers go, (and others have mentioned before) I'd rather see other dangers besides just burly npcs or large groups of npcs.

A few months back the code was changed so we'd need to actually take water and food with us when we go hunting outside. That's more of the harshness I prefer

Yes. I like the Templar that goes around causing fear. What I don't like is the Templar who goes around beheading any PC who doesn't bow at him. But I haven't seen one of those... well ever.