Children and the Way

[Cuusardo]

Typically, how old are children when they're able to start using the Way?

[Crestor]

I'd always thought that, since most creatures on Zalanthas are supposed to have a little use of it, and humans more than most, that kids are able to have some affinity with it at almost any age - certainly by the stage they hit the official playable range.

I would have thought a five year old would know enough to simply scream for help mentally to, say, a parent, while a baby might only be able to send vague feelings of hunger or discomfort to a mother in the same room.

*shrugs*  No real idea, just guessing.

[wizturbo]

Thats a very difficult question.

The way is something I think about a great deal...so I'll give you a possible set of answers as I'd see them.

If talent with the way is genetic, then some children would exhibit use of the way younger than others.  A mindbender child might even begin as an infant or even before they are born with a psionic connection to their parents while the mother is still pregnant.  Human children would on average show use of the way before halfbreeds or other races, as human's have a natural affinity for the way.  And thats really all i could assume about the genetic side.

If talent with the way is learned....that opens up a whole new can of worms.  In that case, I'd say, talent with the way would be developed based on need.  If they're deaf/mute for instance, i'd believe a child would develop use of the way around the age that they'd learn to speak.  Otherwise, a child might not use it until they're nearly an adult, or even later if they dont really have a need to use it.

Whats the most likely scenario, is a mixture of both.  The genetics build the framework of possiblity...or the potential of the child's ability with the way.  And then need determines how quickly the child reaches their potential strength with the way.  


Hope that helps...I'm not expert, but the way is something that really interests me as a player and I've thought about it quite a bit.

[flurry]

It depends how often the mother sings psionically to the child in the womb.

[Tamarin]

*from inside the womb*

contact mommy

psi Hey!  Woman!  Go in the kitchen and bake me a pie!!

[Cuusardo]

I'm serious, people.  I need this information for roleplay purposes.

[flurry]

I was being (semi) serious.  

I imagine that psionic communications skills would develop perhaps even sooner than verbal communication skills, because it doesn't require a vocabulary at all or the physical skills to pronounce words.   Then again it does require some mental development, but I'd say definitely IMHO by the time you can talk you can use the Way.

[crymerci]

I'd say that the Way requires a fair amount of mental focus, especially when you first start using it, and that children therefore might get frustrated with it a lot and not use it much until they have a measure of adulthood.  That would make sense given how hard it is to use with a new 13 year old character.

I don't see fetuses, infants, or toddlers using it at all (with the exception of mindbenders).  I'd think it's the sort of behavior that's learned, so that a child might not even realize the Way exists until the first time someone ways them.  I wouldn't see that happening until somewhere between the ages of four and seven, when a child grows more independent and starts spending more time away from their parents, and also have a conception of time and responsibility, so that their parents can way them to 'get your scrawny ass home right now' or they can way their parents when sent on errands 'Hey, Ma, they've got fresh scrab heads today, you want me to get some along with the kalans?'

Still, I wouldn't see it being frequently used until an older age, when it's used to fulfill responsibilities: meeting the boss, arranging an ambush, etc.

That's just my opinion, I've never heard an explanation of how it develops before.

[Kalden]

I'm serious, people. I need this information for roleplay purposes.

Obviously, none of these people know any more than you do. You value their opinion that much more than your own?

Just come up with your own conclusions, or work at getting a staff opinion, I suppose. But they can't document every single little quirk of the world, so it's basically just up to that particular staff's opinion at the time, too.

[Angela Christine]

I think it depends.  

We don't know what part of the brain is the psychic bit, or even if it is located in the brain rather than elsewhere in the body.  Your brain is not completely developed until you are like 12 years old, but it is mostly finished by 5 years old, and the bits where everything is going to go is mapped out even before birth, but some of the connections aren't very good yet.  Some parts of the brain are basically finished at birth, others take a while, that is why knowing that which part was responisble for tapping into psychic abilities would be handy.  

In most settings my instinct to have it as one of the higher parts of the brain, the bits that humans have much more developed than, say, hamsters or goldfish.  The problem here is that all creatures without psionic ability are extinct, therefore all the creatures that exist are psionic, which means the psionic bit has to be something that exists in humans and also in relatively primitive animals like rats and cockroaches.  That means that the psionic center is going to be somewhere fairly basic, like the bit that controls the four F's: feeding, fleeing, fighting, and sexual intercourse.  It is also possible that non-mammals or invertebreates have evolved psionic function in a different way, so they can be psionic even with very different nervous systems, but rats probably use the same structures as humanoids.


What does all this mean?

I think it is possible that some infants do indeed possess rudimentary psionic abilities at birth, even though they lack language skills at that point.  If nothing else, the potential for a psychic scream from an infant is too cool to rule out.  

Prenatal psionics are unlikely, there is no reason for the child to reach out beyond what he likely percieves as the whole universe.  However, I think it would be perfectly acceptable for the mother to *claim* she picks up things from her child.  The bond is very strong, so if the prenatal mind will connect with anyone it will be the mother.  And without rigorous scientific study there would be no way to tell the difference between genuine psionic activity and the mother's imagination or wishful thinking.  

As for when most children would begin to use the way, when do children learn to use the telephone or learn to read?  I think that would partly depend on culture and family, but I'd say by 5 years old a child would have the potential to develop controled psionic activity if someone was teaching them.  By 5 most of your brain is finished.  You are capable of seeing things from another perspective or put yourself in someone else's place.  You can make some important conceptual leaps.  Whether or not you did learn to control psionics then would depend on how much your people relied on quiet or long-range communication.  
Since this isn't pinned down by docs you have the freedom to decide that you, or your child, developed at whatever age is convenient for your story.  Most other people will go along with you, because they don't know any better than you do.  

AC

[crymerci]

when do children learn to use the telephone

I think this is a great analogy.  Small children (under, say, 4 or 5) don't really understand the concept of the telephone very well, because it's hard for them to conceptualize that other people have lives away from them.  People are either there or not there. Their needs are also pretty immediate at younger ages, so they don't have as much use for someone who's not right there with them.

Children are also notoriously flaky about telephone conversations.  If you have friends with kids, you understand how hard it can be when they answer the phone.  You never know if they're going to tell their parent someone's calling, or if they're even holding the receiver up to their ears.  Quite often they'll forget about the phone as soon as something fun or interesting distracts them.

[Petra]

For what it's worth, I've made more than one character whose background mentioned that they were abducted and sold into slavery or otherwise somehow separated from their parents at an early age.  In order to explain why they couldn't simply contact their parents over the Way I usually worded in something like: "They were too young to efficiently use the Way.  By the time they matured, they had already acclimated into their new life and had since forgotten their former."  I never got a rejection notice, but that doesn't necessarily imply children can't use the Way.  My reasoning was based on the characters I've made in the past, at a time when the Way seemingly operated different than it now does, who started at the minimum possible age.  Their use of the Way SUCKED.  They really might as well not have had psionics at all.  I can only imagine this is tenfold for people younger than the possible starting age, say at age 9 or 10.  I think it's certainly feasible to say a five year old, lost in the woods, could very likely find him or herself unable to reach anyone over the Way to come save them.  It's possible they would pass out after only the second attempt.

[Lasakar]

I read the orginal "The Will and the Way" of the Dark Sun Campaign. There is nothing special mentioned about kids. I think you have a free hand. There is a complete download of the handbook on the following Website (click "Dark Sun"). Maybe it helps.

http://greyhawk.sincretech.it/www.treemme.org/ihggol/oop/oop.htm

[Sanvean]

I am a little unwilling to formalize this since it seems like something different people would RP differently.

I have always played it that one doesn't develop fullblown psionic abilities until adolescence, which may result from absorbing too much of Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover series, which are pretty well detailed as far as a psionic system goes (and good reads to boot). Before then it's rudimentary, although other people can contact them.

[Vendyra]

I think that before a child develops full Way understanding, it's reasonable to have them send really obscure messages at first.  Small echoes of what they're feeling (if it's an intense emotion), basic words (food, sleep, etc), or when they're feeling threatened and really need a parent around.  I would place these from age five until true Way development.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

It should also be noted that the Way...the ability to send messages to others via the mind... is genetic. Thus, there is likely not a single person in all of Zalanthas who has never used the way in some rudimentary manner, even if they are mentally handicapped. The genetic trait spans races and species, so you can assume that the way is like shouting...not used often but certianly not unusual.

This is why those who use the mind as their playgrounds are so disturbing. Nobody keeps a barrier up unless they don't like voices in their head or are being hunted. Therefore, the majority of the world is at the mercy of a powerful bender, and, unlike magickers, sorcerers, and magickal but still physical (for the most part) threats, defense is much more difficult to maintain.

I'd assume any person in any position of power would be hard pressed to not use the Way, in some manner. I mean, will you shout to your buddy and see how they are doing (shouting being an anology for using the Way, you'll remember), or are you gonna trek across Tuluk to knock on his door and hope he is there?

[Quo]

Something beforehand - these ideas are based on the impression I developed about psionic abilities. They're not backed by any special ooc-information other than GDB-discussions. I have never played a mindbender, so there might be more detailled documentation in the game  proving my ideas all wrong. Apply with a grain of salt, and trust your own judgement, please

I don't think the ability to contact someone is restricted by age. For very young children, I'd think it reasonable to restrict it to people they're knowing well, and slowly extending that circle with age, similar to the group of people a child will converse with in talking.
I loved Angela Christines take on the subject.
Heres the stages that'd come to my mind (more on content/details of images later)

• Starting with mother, add nanny, father, if they're ocupying themselves with the child a *lot*
  
• How aware is the child of these persons when they're not in the same place? Can it keep the contact up when they're leaving eyesight? Every child has to learn that objects are something permanent, that something hidden under a blanket isn't 'gone' (and does so at a very early age).
  
• When does it come to the child that the contact remains even when the mother has left the room? Children are able to distinguish the steps of very close persons even when they can just be heard, not yet seen. Often they'll explain 'Dad!' when it's indeed daddy coming home and about to insert the key into the front door. What does that mean in a world where every rock is gifted with psionic abilities?
  
• Maybe a major problem, especially if the child has above-average psionic abilities: When and how does it learn to filter the important from the unimportant? When does it learn to block things out it doesn't want? Imagine receiving every radio station at the same time. Are you going mad, block it out entirely (maybe even beyond rediscovering it), or how do you learn to handle it? Restriction to eye-contact might be a way to keep it under control.
  
• add people the child has contact with often - if it trusts them. Often a child will refuse to talk to someone even if it's perfectly able to do so. The same probably could be hold true for the way.
  
• How would the child react to someone contacting it against its will? This could come a true shock, depending on the contact.
  
• Up to a certain age, I think it'd be very reasonable to restrict it to well known people. Technically, I'd avoid contacting based on keywords entirely, and would restrict it to names.
  
• Depending on training, background, mental abilities, the child could learn to make use of the way for its purposes, such as using the way to demand something verbally (before, it could send an image of the obect desired. My daughter used to take me by the hand and draw me somewhere to show what she wanted to have.  Next stage was that she added 'come' to the gesture, then 'I want to show you something', then 'I want chocolade!', then 'I may have some chocolade now!' followed by 'May I have some chocolade?'. Meanwhile she's at "I've eaten my breakfast. May I have some chocolade now?'... Of course that only applies to chocolade that's out of her reach. Chocolade within reach is taken care of autonomously.
  I'm sure you can translate that into different psionic transmissions.
  
• Wild guess - in their teens, when the child is about to get more explorative on things beyond their familiar environment, a 'wandering mind' could be imagined, depending on intelligence and psionic affinity.
  

Now what could be in the message? I'd say the -verbal- content of the message would go very much synchronous to the linguistic capabilities of the child. How well is it able to express itself in spoken language? Is it already thinking of itself as 'me' or in third person 'a child' ? As already said, I'd think that the first images would be feelings like hunger, thirst, comfort and discomfort, pain, anger, fear. Due to that, I'd imagine life for a Zalanthan mommy a bit easier
I'd combine feelings with vision, but keep in mind that children see things a lot different than adults. A lot of our 'seeing' is filtered and interpreted already. A child sees all details on the same level of importance as the 'whole' - if there is a 'whole' to the child, and not just an overwhelming combination of random details. The older a child grows, the more 'weighted' the details become. Chocolade becomes an important detail at an early age, to be discovered in every disguise and hiding place within seconds
So a mental image sent by a young child might be a random assortment of details within eyesight, their choice not necessarily relating to subject or asker. Things in focus there might start with things at hand or -moving-, and it would seem important to me to avoid all interpretation and describe the 'raw' detail, even if the receiver will have a hard time decoding it.
(a complicated crisscross, smooth, solid and with something spiky protuding - a furry smile - a clinkering sound - lengthy things dangling against each other)
decoding to: basket the baby is lying in,  focus shifting from teddy bear to windchimes.

A sample conversation I just had with my daughter (3 years, 1 month now). My daughter is staying with her granny for a few days to allow me to finish my tax declaration. Her granny had phoned me, and she was as usual eager to get hold of the phone herself. Eventually, she got it...

Translating from German
Stella: Hello!
me: Hello! Have you been doing anything fun today?
Stella:I did pants! Her granny is sewing a new pair for her, and she tangled the rubber cord to 'help'.
me: Is granny sewing a new pair of pants for you?
Stella: umm, umm, umm, we have been shopping! changing subject...
me: where have you been to? Just down the road, or did you take the car?
Stella:what is that? changing subject...
me: Oh, I can't see it. Can you describe it?
Stella: look here! (She's holding a button)
me:can you describe what you're seeing?
Stella: umm, umm,  ... (I bet she'd love the way ,)
Sometimes a 'guess what I have' kind of conversation breaks off from that. Like is it round - yes. Is it green - no. If we manage to guess right, it's a lot of fun for her. If it goes on too long she'll change subject.
This time I'm changing the subject back
me: What have you been buying, something to eat?
Stella: umm umm with raisins. I bought a --He's flying! (Ski-jumping on TV, which I can't see)
me: who?
Stella: Grannys things (She's referring to the sewing eq - buttons, needles, etc in front of her)
At this point granny demands the receiver back to solve the riddles for me...
Stella: later!
hands the receiver back

I'd think that the way would be a lot easier and less frustrating for children than a telephone. They can send what they see, and of course they are absolutely certain that what matters to them is of the same importance to the receiver. A telephone is a true challenge, and I noticed that my daughter really struggles for words to describe what she wants to tell. It's more difficult for her over the phone than directly, also because the feedback is less easy to decypher for her.
Actions seem easier to describe verbally than objects, she is aware that she has to describe things she did, and her use of past/present is consistent through that. However it's hard for her to believe that we don't see what is right before her eyes, so whenever she's referencing something she is seeing at the moment, we're lost unless we know what's there. She's also able to describe things she doesn't see at the moment, but often she'll change subject to something right before her eyes and talk in riddles.
The example above is a very brief one, she hasn't been very focussed due to the TV running. Conversations get longer and more consistent when there are less distractions, but I thought the brief example might give a good idea nevertheless.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't know who you are, Quo, but that was a well thought out post. Very good.

[spawnloser]

I will agree with Venomz.  Well thought out...just a couple things.

Children learn that things stay when out of sight at about 2-3 years of age (if I'm remembering correctly)...so at about that time, I could see them trying to reach mommy (or daddy) when they're not home or out of sight...before then, they probably wouldn't think of it...as far as the remaining in contact, it would probably be more of a hopeful clutching to the contact, until that time as well.  With my five younger siblings, I saw many a time that they would light up when they heard mommy or daddy's voice or footsteps or such, but would still have to go run and look before yelling out and running to hug them.

I don't think that restricting a child to only people they know would be right...but the child would probably restrict him/herself to people they know.

Otherwise...I can see everything you got there Quo.