Hoods, Veils

[jmordetsky]

When I look at someone in a hood, I can see their long desc.

So, whats IC on this? Can I see them when I look really closely?

Should I pretend like I don't know who they are? Is a hood an infallable disguise?

I think if I'm wearing a veil and a hood, you really are not going to know who I am yea?


If so if I wear a hood, bash someone over the head with a club in plain sight of commoners way, duck into an any, change my cloak and take off a veil...is my crim status gone?

wondering what folks think.

[Stroker]

It is really up to you to decide how much your char saw. Was he in a hurry and glimpsed a small fraction, or did he stand there, blatantly glaring at the hooded figure absorbing every slightest detail, and so on and so forth.

[Anonymous]

Quick note:  ldesc is the 'So and so is standing here' line.  The big paragraph describing your character is called the desc according to the submissions page.  I'm not nitpicking here, just hoping to avoid some confusion.

Playability > Reality.

I think in identifying someone you need to try to take into account what is on their face.  Having a hood up really doesn't render you incognito.  But if you are wearing a bandana, then I think people ought to stick to describing you by whatever non-facial features would be evident from your desc.

It's kind of silly to think that just because you have your face wrapped up that I won't see your third arm, or your bulging crotch or your distended belly.

But not being able to see a desc or being able to quickly de-crimify yourself would lead to chaos in the city.

[sacac]

Again.. it is a situation where Realism was traded for playability.. Thank the staff for that.. Without it.. we would be another Hank'n'slash that noone likes yet everyone plays... (Or most of you, Hopefully not.. but again.. not my point)

[sarahjc]

I don't know, I saw a hooded, masked figure in a tavern the other day.. Besides height and maybe weight, if you have no extra limbs or a tattoo on your hands. I am not going to have a clue who you are..

Just how I play it..

If it's just a hood, I am vague at best on the facial features, maybe getting a glimpse of eye color..a tufted of hair sticking out..

[Tamarin]

I agree that a cloak should probably cover most if not all of a person's body....

however...

there are already too many cloaked figures walking around in my opinion.  Making them conceal everything about you will only increase this.

[Twilight]

There are things that conceal a description.  They are rare, yes, but they are also things which you can't see past.  You can look in a hood.  This isn't a Dark Lord of the Sith's hood that you can't see into because of darkness.  I have never seen a hood other than in movies that conceals the features.  Shadow, not darkness.  Also, if you look at items carefully, things which conceal even a half to 3/4 of your face do not conceal you from recognition.

If you want to conceal your features, completely (maybe you see their eyes), find something that does it, completely.

[Armaddict]

Personally, I've felt that certain helms, greathelms especially...should cover up who a person is.  I am sure to keep my helms off when I don't think they'll be used for this reason...I mean...they cover your whole face, heh.

I can understand the playbility issue, though, as well as the rampant amounts of greathelms that would be worn if it was made this way, which is why I never idea'd it or anything.  It would still make sense, though.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Personally, I think the entire wear code should be revamped. There are a number of minor problems with it. Perhaps it would be a major task, and perhaps not. I peronally have no problem with not knowing everyone's desc. I'd simply make it illegal to wear masks in the city. Since the city is still the place most typically populated, I'd not see a huge problem with it. But I think the fact that you cannot mask up is rather ludicrous, despite the fact that I can see the viewpoint of the IMMs.

If I'm robbing someone, you can't tell its me. Believe me.

[creeper386]

I'd say there is all sorts of ways to identify someone. Even in a huge city. Besides their face.

The clothing they have on, although codedly could be worn by all sorts of NPCs and other PCs. Is still individual. It'll have it's own tears, holes, stains... It'll perhaps have varying colors where they dye wasn't even. It'll be different shades due to poor dying or due to exposure...

Then you have their voice. Then you have their posture. You have how they walk. You have all sorts of things. Smell. And then you got their size, shape... And honestly it could probably go on and on.

How does wearing a mask cover up even part of that? Honestly, it's impossible to determine a person by their clothes. It's a problem with the code. It's not that detailed. Hardly anyone RPs thier walk, it's really difficult. Hardly anyone RPs thier voices. And even then you couldn't really pin point individuals. As text doesn't convey sound well. Not many people RP how their character smells. What details of their clothes is different. The size and shape code is minimum. If you take out the descriptions commonly, you probably couldn't really get a feel for how big someone is. Sure they are taller and thicker then you. Are they a huge barbarian. A fat ass fucker? You can't tell.

It takes alot more work then just changing clothes to really completely change yourself. Venomz experiences might hold true... But there are some things most people don't notice about themselves that give them away. And let them be identifiable in the future. The best way not to be noticed again, is not to be seen again.

There is just TOO many things that aren't RPed, and really are difficult to RP and IMO impossible to do so accurately... And aren't even close to covered by the code, to make things like disapearing descriptions common. Already it's hard to tell people apart if two people have similar equipment, the same hoods and both are raised... I honestly don't pay THAT much attention to peoples descriptions. Maybe everyone else does. SHRUG.

Anyways... When things are perfect... And everything is virtual. And I could acctually SEE your characters exactly how they are, hear them, smell them ... Then maybe I'd be in favor of more advanced concealable code... Untill then... I acctually would rather ALL those masks be abolished. ALthough I know most don't hide descriptions anymore. Any item that is just worn on the face or head should be abolished from hiding descriptions...

Easiest solution... Recode the descriptions so they are in sections... COMPLETELY recode the wear code so that it works right. Clothing and such acctually cover up the areas they are supposed to, also hide that area of the description. And it'd have to be EXTREMELY complicated and detailed. Code in all sorts of different ways for clothing to be torn and stained and such. As well as ways to repair/clean some of them. Avoid some of it some how... Very touchy stuff. Blah blah blah. Continue on and on.

Basically I'd say it'd have to include everything, although short of being completely VR... I'd say it still wouldn't work any better then the current system. Sure the criminal code is harsh in this aspect... I don't think PCs are nearly as harsh.



Creeper

[Quirk]

On the other hand, a goodly percentage of people have difficulty recognising someone who attacked them from a police line-up even if that person was making no attempt to conceal their features. It's hard enough to recognise someone you've seen maybe once or twice before who you saw in full, let alone remembering someone you saw in a stressful situation when your brain was not devoting a whole lot of horsepower to storing that face in long-term memory.

If you get held up by a raider in sunslits, bandana and hood and somehow manage to recognise that same raider when you see him in different dress walking the city streets, you may have to question how realistically you're playing. It's fine to go on about all the other ways to recognise someone apart from their face, but in reality your memory is not that perfect, you can mistake people for someone else and in stressful situations like combat you're not going to walk away with a perfect impression of the person who attacked you.

In summary: I don't see anything wrong with masks. If you hang round someone in a mask long enough you get to tell their mannerisms. If you only see them leaping out of the bushes at you, there's no way your character should be able to easily recognise them later unmasked, given the memory's typical response to stress, and if anything's there to jog your memory, any clues they give you by way of distinctive clothing or speech or mannerisms are easily enough to go on.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

On the other hand, a goodly percentage of people have difficulty recognising someone who attacked them from a police line-up even if that person was making no attempt to conceal their features.

Playing a sneaky person once, he was on his way from point A to point B...had a hood up and veil on.  Someone followed me half way across the city to get a 'look' at me (which was already argued over in another thread so I will not go into too much pontification over that matter)...now, I wouldn't be so upset if they could see my whole mdesc and know who my character was...when, realistically, I was one of hundreds of people along that stretch of road and this person could not have seen much of my character in the brief second he stuck around to get the 'look' off.

[Lasakar]

I'd simply make it illegal to wear masks in the city. Since the city is still the place most typically populated, I'd not see a huge problem with it.

It is an IC problem I think. We have enough templars! Lets them enforce the new law. I simply don't trust or talk to hooded figures. If such a person enters a tavern just let him feel uncomfortable. Most of them will lower their hood very fast.

I use the hood to conceal my race. In the short desc I wrote my race, but in the normal desc I only describe the typical features of my race. So I force people to read my desc more carefully.

[creeper386]

If you get held up by a raider in sunslits, bandana and hood and somehow manage to recognise that same raider when you see him in different dress walking the city streets, you may have to question how realistically you're playing.

Uh... If thats how you get how I play from my post... Oopps. I very rarely look at mdescs. I scan through them at best when there isn't going on. Most the time even if I'm around someone for along time... I still only know them by their sdesc and equipment. When people are hooded already it's a pain in the ass to tell people apart when it really shouldn't be. You can hang around two people together of the same hieght and weight. If they have the same cloak and raise the hood. You can't tell which is doing which at all.

Sure if you are RPing in my opinion fairly unkosher like in your little example there, yes you can identify people fairly easiely, but that still doesn't change the fact a hood, or some sunslits and a bandana are going to hide who you are. Even in stressful situations. It might have been common practice to where bandanas in the wild west but it doesn't hide things.

I have a problem with simple items making everyone of the same height and weight look the same, with no way to tell the difference at all. You could have a tall fat guy, and a tall muscular guy, with a hood up they already look the same at a glance. Add the fact that their description is partially hidden... You may not be able to tell a damn thing about them.

There shouldn't be a 100% chance of identification, but there shouldn't be a 0% chance at the same time. You get these problems... What part of the description does it cover up. If it's a mask it should only cover up facial features... But in taking out the mdesc it could very well just take out what their general body shape is like and leave in their face. If it scrambles the description... Well it could be very well you can't tell ANYTHING at all... Just far to many inconsistances.

And honestly, you probably shouldn't hang out with your intended victims, if you don't want to be recognized. They may not notice your face but it's quite common to recognize a voice if you hear it again. It isn't coded so, that isn't allowable. The ONLY way to identify someone is with their main description for the most part. So IMO it doesn't just include whats written there, but it includes other things, smells, sound of voice and what have you. If people RP otherwise, such as concealing their voice ... And concealing their features and such, sure ... but most people wear a hood and figure they are unidentifiable. Or think that they have a mask on so they aren't noticable.

Myself... I remember stressful life threatening moments far more clearer then I do the rest of life... maybe I'm different. But I remember my first car accident in kindergarten with crystal clarity still. As well as just about every time I've been injured or indangered. Included the people around at the time. I don't see how your idea that everything just goes fuzzy stands at all.

Creeper

[Cuusardo]

My problem with things like hoods and veils is that when that person talks, the code does not tell you whether it's a female or a male voice.  This should be something distinct, even when having a hood pulled up over your head.  However, when a man and a woman are wearing the same kind of cloak with their hoods pulled up, you can't tell who is speaking!  This has led to confusion before, and no doubt will happen again.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

When emotes are carried out by folk in cloaking, we should leave it just as is. When speaking, however, the following should happen...

The figure in a grey cloak says, in a feminine voice with a southern accent: "We are gay."

The tall, thin figure in a red and white robe says, in a masculine voice with a northern accent: "We know."

[spawnloser]

I will agree with this idea...In fact, I like it.

However, I will note that people wearing veils and such are a 'male figure wearing...' or a 'female figure wearing...'

[Rindan]

Personally, I would much rather error on the side of it being too easy to mask who I am then too hard.  Simply put, staying anonymous in Armageddon is extremely difficult.  There are three reasons why it is so damned hard, and all three of them are OOC reasons.

First, concentrations of people are extremely rare.  If you want to be with people, the number of places where you can go are extremely small.  There is no small smokey magiker bar, no shady heavily populated 'rinth bar, no bar filled with just mercenaries and smugglers.  There are a few key places in the world where people can find other people, and for the most part the crowds are very mixed.  If you happen to anger someone in the Bard's Barrel in Allanak, you are pretty much screwed when it comes to finding concentrated interaction if you want to avoid the person you screwed.  It isn't like you can just move to the next bar over or go hang in your favorite shady bar.  There are other places to stay, but not where you are going to find a terrible abundance of people.  In most places you can burn the bridge once and then you are in trouble.

The second reason why it is so damned hard to keep identities hidden is simply because there are so few people playing relatively speaking.  I bet you can count on one hand the number of active elven PCs in Allanak.  The simple fact is that if you make a reputation, it is going to spread fast through the PC population simply because there are so few PCs.  That means there are fewer people to tell about your miss deeds and fewer people and fewer people to blend in among.  Further, any action you take as a PC will be major.  A militiaman often jumps at the chance to track down a criminal not because they are dedicated or actually care, but because it is the chance to do something.  The large criminal underground that is Allanak (or Tuluk) often is supported by one, two, or some times even no PCs.  Take out one guy and you stop crime in Allanak until someone makes a new PC.  It isn't the fault of law enforcement.  The poor militiaman who spends time sitting on his hands has a right to want to do some crime fighting when the chance comes.  So, when a criminal gets known, instead of just slipping through the cracks, the poor bastard has half of Allanak after his head.

The third reason why it is hard to remain unknown is simply because it only takes one guy to type look at you and everyone could known who you are.  Because information travels so quickly to all of the PCs, it only takes one screw up for anyone who could do something against you to know who you are.  Instead of being lost in a sea of other such petty criminals you get targeted and your description is remembered.  For the most part, there is nothing that you can do except run or deal once your description is known.  You can't easily alter your appearance so that you look different enough to be overlooked, and there is very little clothing that will cover your description.

I personally would rather see clothing error on the side of concealing information instead of broadcasting.  If someone wants to dress head to toe in such a way that they can't be identified, more power to them.  It should be completely illegal within the city to dress in such a manner, but if someone wants to pull out the old cape and mask to do something illegal, it shouldn't be an issue in my opinion.  It is not like it takes any great skill to use a bandana to mask your face and clothing to mask your other obvious features.  If someone identifies you later by clothing, I would consider it fair play.  The description thing is the real kicker for identification.  People should be able to cover themselves easily enough to be unidentifiable via description.  A guy with a mask could in cities of thousands could be anyone without a mask, and a strip of sandcloth over your face showing just your eyes (which can also be covered with sunslits) is not an expensive or difficult to come by cover.  The issue is that to get such concealment currently, you need to go well above and beyond to obtain description hiding items.  You shouldn't need to do anything special to hide your description.  The criminal underground could use a boost.  The crime code is pretty brutal as it is, and once wanted you are pretty much screwed.  The ability make it harder for PCs to identify such people would not be a great tragedy.