Crafting Idea

[Crashloft]

Upon character creation, one should be possibly be given the choice to type in what their crafting signature should look like.  What this would do, is that on each item they make, it would insert the signature on the item, making it identifiable.

IE:  
Enter your crafting signature now>
a small erdlu with a large schlong

Very well, your crafting signature is: A small erdlu with a large schlong


craft bone obsidian leather into bone-handled tomahawk
.
..
...
....
.....
You craft a bone-handled, obsidian-headed tomahawk.

ex tomahawk

blah blah blah blah blah blah.  Engraved on the handle of this fine weapon is a small erdlu with a large schlong.

[P-ton]

I love this idea.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

You know...this is a good idea. Perhaps, however, you could simply do it in game, rather than during character creation. It also recommend a thirty-five character limit on the short description for it, and a more generic type of implementation, like "A spiral and ring is depicted upon this item."

Code Select Expand

Help Signature

Signature is a merchant's mark, indicating the identity of the crafter of an item. There is a 35 character limit on your signature.

Examples of good signatures:

a sun-backlit tower
a elven skull
a profiled warhammer

Syntax:

Signature [35 letters or less]

[spawnloser]

I think character creation is best, actually, V.  That way it could get screened with the rest of the character.

[Angela Christine]

craft meat into grilled scrab steak

examine steak

blah, blah, blah.  On the back of this item is engraved a profiled warhammer.

Um.  :?


AC

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Agreed, spawn. And, uhm, AC? They would probably exclude foods, arrows, and minor items. Bows, weapons, armors, vases...these are the hings which would benefit from this implementation.

[Anonymous]

Yuck.

I'm the foremost basketweaver in the Known World.  People come from miles around to get my baskets, and the little sigil of a rotting baobab tree.  Unbeknownst to them, I'm also a sneaky little Elkrosian.  I'd hate for someone to run across some magick components, hey, rotting baobab tree.  Let's hang him.

I think this is rather infeasible, based on the code.  Or, to the point, more effort than is worthwhile.  Every item will now need a 'signature' text string added to it.  Except, see, that will create a separate instance of that object.  And really... fifteen numut-vine baskets, most have a rotting baobab tree on them, a few don't, they're all the exact same, it just shows that I can spam-craft just like the rest of you.
Whopee.

Leave it the way it is.  When you get to be a master-crafter, you can start making special orders, trust me, it's fun.  And when you do that, might as well add a little rotting baobab tree to it.  After all, it's something no one else has ever made, you should mark it.  I just don't think mass-produced items should be individually marked.

Guestie-guestie.

[Malifaxis]

I don't know about code difficulty, but from what I'm guessing it could be added as a field value on the main desc of the item.  Kind of like... well those smelly tags.  They have an additive to the main desc of the item, don't they?

-OR-

An additional skill.  A signature skill... because honestly, merchants would be the ones, I'd think, that would most want this.  For non merch crafter folk, they'd get a small percentage.  You set the sig up at char gen, it's approved with the PC (so no Heckler & Koch sig'd longbows come into the game... though I think 7DV might be in on this with me, but I would *KILL* for a maar hand-crossbow with "Glock" on the side), and maybe additional signatures could be added via submitting to the clan staffer of the PC.  You'd craft the item like normal, get the end result, and if your PC deemed the item worthy, or was doing it for the reason of fame whatever, THEN you add your signature.  It's another roll, and on a crit fail, I could see the item being mangled or given the addition sig instead of "There are numerous ink stains along the bottom of this sketch" or "A large hunk of rock has been accidentally chipped away."

It would totally rock to have this done, I think.  Signed items would be more valuable ICly... promoting more trade, coveted items, possibly even ShadowRun like missions to go steal a crafter from a rival house... there's too many possibilities.

I'd be very willing to contribute to the messages or whatever is needed.

Fucking rock on, Crashloft.

[Angela Christine]

So, you would need to put a flag on all 2836 craftable items, to determine if it is or is not something a signature can be added to?  And each of the things that could be signed would need a little text string added to show where the signiture goes?  For example: "Engraved on the pommel is" or "Stitched into the collar is".  

To me that seems like a lot of effort for a small return.  It does sound cool though.  To make it more special, and avoid the problem "Guestie-guestie" brought up, I'd suggest making it a Merchant-only ability.  The crafting subguilds aren't designed to make you a Master, and no one would be interested in the mark of a talented amature.  

Angel of Christmas

[Crashloft]

Implementing this in code would be fairly easy.  Some people are proud of what the make and might want see their symbol on the item.  I think it would be a good option to have.  You could also add a command to the change syntax, for those of us who don't want to have their brand on an item.

Change    Signature(or whatever)     On/Off

That would make it simple.

I won't even waste my time on the food comment.  heh Dur

[Crashloft]

I agree, it seemed like a good idea at the time I thought of it.  heh  Feck it!  

I give!!!!!!!!

[creeper386]

Well... As far as I know, most items are considered generic. If you look at the item submission, unless the item is going to be a one and only item, you don't include unique things.

I'm personally think it should just be left to 'special orders'. Let the character put his signature on something thats his. If he's just producing some generic brand vase that slaves and such make hordes of the same... Well it's probably nothing special, but if he makes a special vase thats uniquely his due to skill, style, material so on and so forth... Well I could see it bearing some sort of his symbol so as to tell who made it.

Basically, if you want something more then just a generic item, make it yourself, and then you can have whatever emblem you want on it.

Creeper

[__Torax__]

I think if this idea is implemented you should be able to choose if you want to add your signiture or not. That would also be able to let you exclude food and items of the sort. Also it would allow for a bit of annonyminity if you dont want your signiture engraved all over a specialized item that will be used for something secretive.

[spawnloser]

Personally...I am kinda with AC.  The only fix to that situation would be to make all signatures on items generic...just have it show up in value like the 'northlands salarr' or 'kadius' sigils that are on items already.

[Malifaxis]

On the subject of signed food... people do that IRL.

USDA Prime Grade A Beef.  Numerous other examples.

It would, of course, mean more if food went bad if ill prepared.

*nudge*

Well if the main dexcriptions of objects that are changed are saved like that.
Just add the mark to the main description, a field that already exists on objects. If they are always loaded as generici objects it wouldnt work so nevermind..

I think its a great idea. Perhaps only if the maker gets to a certain skill level. So likely only merchants would be able to use it. Advanced merchants. So who made the knife who killed that idiot noble? Looks like it was silly merchant #6's weapon hehe.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Ok. While I am listening to folks talking about how hard it would be, let's put it down for real. I now dislike UO greatly, but their crafting system allowed a maker's mark. So, if their system allows a maker's mark on exceptional items, then why not put a maker's mark on a talented merchant's product? Now, would it be very hard? I doubt it.

And Malifaxis, if I could have a .45 Colt hand crossbow, no, two, and be able to hold them in both hands...nigga, I'd nut.

[theebie]

adding a short string to the main-description of an item upon creation
(through a craft) should be quite easy
probably just something like
if( (crafter_set_signatur(string signatur)) &&
   (crafter.craftskill > requirementForSignatur) ) {
 item.maindesc += signatur;
}

my question would be, now that we are at a point where all (?) theorethical problems are talked about, what next ?

---theebie---

[creeper386]

You got one problem Theebie. As far as I know. And it's been said the same way in the past. Items aren't saved individually. So there'd have to be some way to keep track of which items have which signature and such. Which is much more complicated. Basically, unless every item that is loaded is individually saved, your idea of how it would be coded wouldn't work. What that would do is permenantly change that item everytime someone crafted it with a signature. Along with the fact thats just psuedo code that could very well not even come CLOSE to meshing with whats currently coded.

Anyways. Again, if people want unique objects, they should make them. They shouldn't use generic crafting items. I mean... After they get good I'm sure they have access to crafting items already in place that are uncommon. If no PC makes them it'd be rare and if someone starts making them and it becomes popular it'll be known it's from them. OR, they can just make acctual unique items. The staff tends to be fairly generous when it comes to creative license PCs have. Although it'd probably help to have your items craftable and be able to toss into the mix with everything else. If your characters fairly well based and contributing I'm sure that even unique one time use items wouldn't be TOO hard to get.

Basically, if you want to be known, do something other then everything everyone else is doing. This comes from other games that have supplimented a signature thing, and it comes down to ending up everyone knows what sig goes to who and such, and it tends to cheapen things. It automates things. Automated things may make stuff easier and be nifty at first, but in the long run it just kind of, well ... automates things? It just takes alot out of everything, makes it unreal.


Creeper

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I assure you...while items may not be saved individually, there is code in place which personalizes items. If this were not so, then the bracer you have would not be dusty. The system saves the item in YOUR pfile or in the room save file. While doing that, it also makes note of the condition and effects applying to that item. If the signature is created upon character creation and added to a seperate c. file called Signatures when the character is approved, then it is added as an effect, your problem with the idea is eliminated.

Also, I agree that only good merchants should be able to add a tag, BUT, I want to see the tag. Fuck the bullshit that it messes up the world. I want to see it, and I am in full support of Crashloft's idea.

What do you IMMs have to say?

[Delirium]

The damage or dirty tags are temporary. Adding a personalization wouldn't be.

To make an item personalized, it would probably have to be a unique item. Meaning for every merchant that wants to make grass baskets with a cute little symbol on the bottom, there would need to be a separate version of grass basket so that each could have its own personalized little stamp. Add a keyword to one generic item, you add that keyword to all other existing generic items.

[spawnloser]

Okay, I think everyone's missing that there are already signatures on items...when you 'value' something.  Why not make it able to go as personal as individual crafter by expanding that code already in place?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Firstly, there would be no new keyword added.

Secondly, the dusty tags and such are temporary. The way to make the maker's mark permanant would be to:

1) Make the tag invisible, so that when someone looks at a basket, they don't see a signed basket, they see a basket. Only when they look at the object do they see the maker's mark.

2) Make the tag non-cleanable, much like the ripped tag.

Spawnloser, I'll agree with you there. Just one problem. If it is put in value or assess rather than the main desc, only certian characters with certian skills will be able to even see it. That is not right. If that part is fixxed, I'll wholeheartedly agree to it only being in assess or value.

Finally, to ensure that the C. file remains small and that this signature shit does not get out of hand, I recommend that a maker's mark be allowed when the character is at 95% or higher of their skill cap in that particular skill. Remember, a maker's mark would be used to denote quality, and while quality is not something that is currently accounted for, this would certianly denote that the object is of quality.

[Anonymous]

My thoughts...

First, this is not a literate society.  So, in order for a maker's mark to work, the craftsmen who put it there would have to be -very- well known, as all it would be is a symbol that would have to be recognized by the population.  An individual craftsman being able to be that well known is very unlikely, perhaps the very best of the best might gain that prestige...

Second, the best craftsmen in the world are snatched up by the Merchant houses very quickly, perhaps offering them great compensation, perhaps threatening them with death for trying to compete.  These crafters are then going to put their House maker's mark which would be recognized with relative ease.  

I can see the OOC need for maker's marks, as PC crafters have a difficult road to travel, but I see this as extremely realistic.  You can't with little to no training start out a craftsmen firm in RL without a great deal of funds to practice your trade.  This realism is brought into the game, if you want to become a master at crafting, doing it on your own should be extremely difficult.  Doing it with a great merchant house, would be far easier, but you'd have to share the fruits of your labors with them, as they supply the capital and training to have brought you to that degree of skill.

[creeper386]

For one, it wouldn't be saved as a c file. '.c' files are used for compiling. Besides that I'm pretty sure they just sit idly by while the rest of the MUD has fun.

Most likely it'd be made in some other text based file specifically for signatures. If it's possible you can modify an items main description. You could do it with a flag, yes, but it's still not an easy fix. It'd be at least a decent amount of building. Then you'd have to have a coder code a way to save/retrieve/manipulate the information from/to a text file, and place it into the main description of the items that are only flagged to handle that.

And even if it was an incredibly easy fix ... Well honestly, it's going to be more trouble then these HIGHLY skills crafters acctually just, MAKING their own goods. Even if your not in a bloody clan I'm sure you can find a staff to help you implement items. I'm sure you can find someone that'd be willing to HELP you write the items if your unsure of your capabilities in writing it yourself. But if you're not creative enough to come up with ideas for whatever you've been crafting to this greatly high fucking skill. You probably shouldn't even be PLAYING here. You most likely wouldn't have got that far.

I'm sorry, but basically it WOULD cheapen things in the long wrong. You come acrossed a PC crafted item. Look at it. See there isn't a crafting sig or see that it's someone you don't like and you won't use it. I'm sorry. PCs aren't that significant most the time. They won't have that big of an impact on the world. As a whole. And if they do, there should be a REASON for it. Not just some bloody damn coded fucking flag. Get your brain off it's fucking ass and do something that MAKES your work stick out instead of just some cheap ass fucking little code that makes things "Special."

Creeper

[Tamarin]

As far as I know, and correct me if I'm wrong...aren't objects on PCs and NPCs stores in that PC or NPCs file?  So when you pick up an object, a big chunk of  text is copied into your pfile...ergo, that tiny little text flag that indicates you crafted it specifically could just be inserted/appended into the required spot....no?

What about making this 'skill' contingent on having the right tool?  Perhaps an embossing tool or something similar...

[spawnloser]

The problem with that, uberjazz, is that that text file would start being copied to everyone's save file that has an item by said merchant...and then if they have an item by another merchant, another one...and another merchant means another.  That's a lot of info being copied and saved and loaded.  That could start bogging shit down.

[creeper386]

It's unlikely that it's the whole information regarding the item. It'd most likely be the items vnum, any flags, and where the item is at. Regardless either there would need to be some way to save the signature. If you save the signature in the pfile of the person who made it. You'd have to load up that pfile EVERY time you wanted to access that signature. Everytime that item is loaded. From what I've read of what the staff has posted... That'd be loaded pfiles everytime you open your containers and such... That way would be horrible on resources. It'd also add another thing that needs to be saved. Written here and there, and such.

Even if it was written in it's own file. Or the whole signature was saved with the information of items a character is carrying it... It'd still probably be alot more loaded and such. The MUD doesn't keep all that information loaded all the time or even once it's loaded so it'll have to be loaded when it's needed. At least to my knowledge.

And, no matter what. Still it really makes little sense. Even if your doing arts and crafts in some small school, and you want your stuff to stick out from everyone else. You don't make the same exact thing as everyone else. Or just put a small emblem on it someplace. Or make something unique, or have a fairly obvious symbol that says it's from you. If you did invent some sort of signature it'd be something like what I'd imagine is done on artwork. Something small stamped in an out of the way place. I still doubt even a skilled artisian would be THAT well known. Artists of any sort are hardly ever known when they are alive. And considering Zalanthas isn't exactly a place containing a great wealth of knowledge of small things like who made that sword. It's just a matter of the quality of the sword. You don't find that out by some small signature. The populace may come to trust the large merchant houses to produce superiour goods, but it's unlikely to be on an individual bases. If it's something expensive a good artisian made it, if it's cheaper, someone just learning probably made it. And the worth of something is probably more on the skill put into the item. Not who made it. You know?

Anyways... I still say if you want unique stuff as a merchant and you are skilled enough you can make your own goods. It's pretty simple. And if they are good. I'm sure you could become Zalanthas form of brand name.


Creeper

[kiddgoth]

Geez.. first things first... this idea rocks simple as that, anyone who dosen't see that... (insert put down here) well then to each his own. Keep those ideas comin!!!!

This post I suppose, was posted to get feedback on the idea.. not I imagine the feedback on the code needed to implement the idea thats for the Imm's to decide, but comon with all the talent on this staff (yup, thats a prime example of ass-kissin) you really think they can't get this done if they set their minds to it?

[Bestatte]

I think it's a horrible idea, because it leaves too many holes open for JoeNewbieUberCrafter to mark his uber wepon of deth and destrukshun:

On the hilt is a mark which reads, "uber wepon of deth and destrukshun crafted by JoeNewbieUberCrafter."

Every single crafted item would have to be checked by an IMM to make sure no one tries adding "written words" on their mark.

Not to mention the whole thing about tacky, tasteless, out of genre cartoon anime crappola marks that some people might find cute.

There are just too many ways to abuse and ruin such a thing, so my vote is no. If you want an item that's exclusive to you, submit it to mud, like you have been able to all along. If you want a trademark design, submit that as well, and ask to have it added to your "list" of things you can craft.

[Forest Junkie]

On the hilt is a mark which reads, "uber wepon of deth and destrukshun crafted by JoeNewbieUberCrafter."

1) Zalanthan commoners cannot read, so it would not be feasible to assume the immortals would allow scripting on a knife to be able to be written in a language.

2) Only skilled crafters would be able to do this I think someone said, so possibly a measure of trust will be given, and once abused, it is then taken away? shrug

3) I doubt it'd be that hard to code. Simply an assignment of all craftable weapons or armors would be allowed to have a code script that would allow the whole thingie. But I don't code, so I'm not sure on this matter.

4) I like the idea. Kudos Crash =P

[creeper386]

Yes, everyone knows my opinions by now, but my opinion that it doesn't really add anything to the MUD, if anything it'll take away from items being submitted.

It works on most other MUDs, yes. Yes it adds things on other MUDs. Most other MUDs don't usually write up submitted items too often. At least ones that aren't related to a current building project. Certainly not within a week or two. Armageddon isn't a normal MUD with a lot of stock items. Things are original. Players contribute a lot to the game. Why take the time to code some cheap carnival toy crap, when players can just contribute even more, and it'd actually be original work?

Honestly I expect crafters by the time they ARE skilled to make their own stuff. Everyone else doesn't have the skill, or are still learning all the things they can make on their own. It allows for simple IC things to add to the world IC and OOC.

Creeper is now done, and also spell checked this post, perhaps five-six errors mostly extra letters or 'alot'

[Anonymous]

The tag skill allows advanced crafters to label items made by their hand with a personal indicator.  Only allowing crafters who have branched this skill to mark their items simulates the time it would take for a given crafter's work to become known among common buyers.

syntax:

change tag <text>
>change tag Three lines cris-crossing a circle

The text must be 40 characters or less and only describe the nature of the tag.  The words ', indicating work performed by PCNAME' will be appended to the tag description.

Then it shows up in the value command.  Have it branch of of some crap.  I don't see the problem.

I could emote pulling out metallic wings and flying around your head while crapping out rainbows in your brain, but I typically don't.  Why can't I be trusted not to be a moron with the above command?

Anyway, I give it an A for coolness factor, but only 1 sweaty palm out of 5 on the urgency-o-meter.

[flurry]

2) Only skilled crafters would be able to do this I think someone said, so possibly a measure of trust will be given, and once abused, it is then taken away? shrug

This caught my attention and actually persuades me a little that this would be a cool idea.   If only the merchant class got this ability.   People have talked about ranger perks, and how other classes should have their own perks.  Well, this could be a merchant class perk.

[Crashloft]

I've read everyones input and am going to simply state how easy of an implementation this idea is.  How do I justify this addition, see #3>.  

1> Allowing the crafters signature to be done during character creation would stop any abuse of bad signatures.  You could have the option of having a signature, or not having one.  If you don't like the idea, then don't add a signature.  The chars with a signature would simply make a more customized item, the chars without would be standard.  Once you have chosen your signature, it stays with your char, just like your short desc.  You should also be able to turn your signature on or off.

2>The only ways the items would differ is, the ones with the signature would be able to be seen in the main description.  It would not be hard to strip the signature from the character and save it to the newly crafted item on completion of the item being crafted.  Once an item is saved on a character, it CAN be edited and WILL save, not affecting the standard item.  At least thats if the standard DIKU object code is still intact for the most part.  IE: Standard DIKU code has a command called oset, it is merely for editing an already loaded and created item.  

3>This signature will also be in hopes, that the craft code is continually updated and developed into a more customized system.  IE:  Randomly generated items.  A good example of this was done by Daeglin with the Sword Quest code.

4>ALL crafters should have the option of having a signature.  Point blank, if you make something, then you should be able to call it your own design.

[Angela Christine]

I've read everyones input and am going to simply state how easy of an implementation this idea is.

If you think you've got the kinks worked out then it may be time to email the mud or move to ask the staff, the player forums are for discussing stuff, we don't do much.  

1> Allowing the crafters signature to be done during character creation would stop any abuse of bad signatures.  

...

You should also be able to turn your signature on or off.

That sounds ok.  Another confusing option for newbies to deal with, but what the hell.  

Being able to turn it off would be important, I think.  A master burglar who has a cover identity as a stone carver won't want the maker's mark he uses on his stonework showing up on the lock picks he makes, since seeing that mark on a lockpick would give it away. :shock:  

4>ALL crafters should have the option of having a signature.  Point blank, if you make something, then you should be able to call it your own design.

I can see that, in theory.  In theory anyone should be able to pick up almost any skill just by doing it, right?  Traditionally only master craftsmen use a maker's mark, if they have apprentices the apprentices either don't mark their own work or else they use thier master's mark and the master is responsible for making sure the work is up to snuff.  The thing with the crafting subclasses is that they will _never_ be master crafters, they aren't meant to.  I'd prefer it was restricted to merchants, because they are the only ones capable of becoming master craftsmen for most crafts.

On the other hand it might work just as well, or better, to put the limitation on the craftable items rather than on the crafter.  This would almost _have_ to be done, since we don't want maker's marks on roasted roots or slender needles (being able to make a needle is much easier than being able to engrave finely enough to make a ledgible mark on a needle without breaking it).  Having non-virtual makers marks on every wooden spoon and stone bowl wouldn't make much sense.  Perhaps only 10-20% of items would display a non-virtual mark, those items to which it is plausible to make a mark on, and that are identifiable as superior quality due to their coded difficulty, fancy description, or that possess flags like the "remarkable for it's artistic qualities" one.  That would keep the marks from being meaningless spam affixed to every item, it would be something unique.

AC

[sacac]

Well.. Traditionally, Master Crafter's only used thier mark when they made something that they wanted to reflect on thier skills.
So.. I think that they should only allow the mark when you make something that you will show off and that the people that it was made for could show them off, And the Master crafter's wouldn't be wanting thier mark on a shoddy piece of thier work..

[zalanthasNomad]

For those who end up able to mark their crafts (whether it be a Merchant Only thing etc ... .. . ) perhaps a script could be set up to work something like this ...


  craft foo
  > you could make a foobar with that

  craft foo into foobar
  > you set to work crafting.

  > you successfully turn the foo into a foobar.

  think "well, that's the best darn Foobar I've ever seen, I want to mark this as one made by me"

  craft foobar
  > you could mark this foobar as yours

 (I would also suggest that upon reaching the ability to mark your finished wares, you should send in your signature for approval at mud@ginka.armageddon.org ... )   The script simply tack-on your approved signature at the end of the item's ldesc.


Feeback?

[Tamarin]

I like it.  Put it in tha game, dawgs.