Upcoming 'nerf' to people with high agility, and stealth

[Dresan]

Is there anything else like that?

As you know, you can attempt a few skills without having the skill with some measure of success for example skinning and direction sense.

It is just that with sneak/hide the bonuses from extreme high agility made it better that sub-guild version when you did not have the skills from class or subclass. Not sure if other stats have as significant impact on skill performance as agility has on stealth skills, though its not likely.

Most people are not likely to notice any change, as few people likely use hide/sneak without having those skills on their list. 

And again as per Halaster:

The change is going to be lowering the impact of high agility on hide and sneak for those who don't have it.

[Twilight]

There are three situations though, not two.

1. No skill at all.  Depends on what bonuses the skill gives.  Like not having climb at all, you can still climb, or skinning when you don't have skin.
2. Have skill on your skillsheet (when you type skill) but not on your skill list (the skills guild/subguild give).  Like ride or pilot if you don't get them through guild or subguild.
3. Have skills on your skillsheet because your guild or subguild get them.


I think it is #2 that is confusing, and what I assumed this was about when I read it, because I don't think you can hide at all in situation #1.

[Big Red]

I have no direct view under the hood but from Halaster's post it sounds like what was up is that there were different formulas for agility skill checks depending on whether or not your PC had the skill in question, and in the formula for trained skill checks the applicable bonus from agility was capped, but for untrained skill checks, it wasn't.

[Halaster]

Ok, so time for me to eat some humble pie. I was very wrong about this whole thing.  @Nao posed the question "I recently tried to hide on a character that doesn't have the skill, and seemed to run into the same infinite delay", which made me stop and think that yeah, this makes no sense what I'm telling y'all.

FORGET everything I said so far, apologies.    I took another look and had Zorkbob the Inhaler double-check me.

If you don't have hide or sneak on your skill-list, you simply can't do it.  As Nao points out, you get in that infinite delay on hide (which I need to fix).  For sneak, you're just not going to succeed.

The 'innate' maximum I'm talking about, is for people who get the skill added but it's not part of their guild or subguild.  The most common example is desert elves; they get hide and sneak added as a racial thing even if their guild/subguild doesn't normally get it.  And the 'innate' max is for THAT scenario.

Another example is if you do a specapp and trade some skill for sneak or hide that you wouldn't normally get for your guild/subguild.

Clear as mud?

So in summary:

- If your guild or subguild gets it, that is your max, period.
- Else if your guild or subguild do not get it, but you have it added for some reason (desert elf, specapp), this 'innate' max applies, which is higher than most any subguild can achieve.
- Otherwise, if it's not on your skill list, you will not succeed at hide or sneak.

I still plan to lower that innate max, which means people like desert elves will not be able to get to 'master' unless their guild or subguild provides it.  Instead, it will cap at low advanced.

[Halaster]

This is my final answer, Regis.

[Athapaxis]

Well you've asked the audience and phoned a friend - so now you're locked in.  Let's find out if you've won a million dollars!

[LindseyBalboa]

instead of nerfing high agility characters by lowering the bonus they get across-the-board why don't we just put an actual cap in place at low advanced for natural stealth skill?

ie, if your don't have the skill from subguild/guild it just won't count any hide/sneak bonus over a certain point (low advanced).

ex:

sneak1 has +25 to hide/sneak from agi and has hide/sneak added at 50; they lack the skill in guild/subguild; the cap is low advanced (let's say 60); any bonus after hide reaches 60 would be discounted.

sneak2 has +25 to hide/sneak from agi and has hide/sneak in their guild. It caps at 75 (high advanced) in their subguild. They can get to 100.


this would not nerf PCs that have decided to prioritize agi over str/wis/end and accomplish the stated goal re: stealth natural skill mastery

[Twilight]

Don't think this is about the +'s agility gives to sneak and hide at all.  It is about, in certain specific circumstances, your agility determining the max you can get the skill to.  Used to run into issues with ride and heavy spice use because of this.

[Hindsight]

So, if you DO have the skill, the same agility bonus applies to it and nothing has changed?

[Halaster]

So, if you DO have the skill, the same agility bonus applies to it and nothing has changed?

If you have the skill because your guild or subguild give it to you, nothing has changed.

If you have sneak or hide added to your list because of some other reason, the max cap has been lowered, especially for high agility people.  This would affect desert elves who do not get hide or sneak from their guild or subguild.  This would affect someone who got sneak or hide added to their character as part of a special application but do not get hide or sneak from their guild or subguild.

[Doublepalli]

Wow this is quite a big nerf.

You don't nerf half-elf ride passive.

But apprentice sneak/hide does not foot the bill

[Patuk]

He specifically said delves get their innate cap set to advanced, so you can rest easy in knowing it is at an entirely sensible level.

[titansfan]

I totally agree with this. You shouldn't be better at sneaking or hiding just because you're super agile. Bonus to it? Sure. Higher than master guilds/subs? No.

+1