Upcoming 'nerf' to people with high agility, and stealth

[Halaster]

If you don't have hide or sneak as part of your guild or subguild, then you have a 'natural' limit as to how high these can go.  This is adjusted by agility, so people (elves) with really high agility have a really good 'natural' hide and sneak.

It's so good at really high agility that it's apparently better than what a lot of subguilds get.  However, if you have the skill from your guild/subguild, then you're capped by that.  The end result is that elves with really high agility who take certain guild/subguilds with sneak or hide at less than master values are going to max lower than what they would if their guild/subguild choices didn't get it.

We plan to change this soon by reducing the amount of bonus a high agility will give to 'natural' hide and sneak.  This will not affect anyone who gets the skills from their guild or subguild.  We are taking this approach because we feel that the 'natural' ability should not outdo the standard value for subclasses.  And we do not want to just raise the cap for a bunch of subguilds (and even main guild).

This post is an FYI (and a place to discuss it) about the change coming soon.

[Veselka]

Sounds legit. Thanks for the well written explanation.

[Dusty Boots]

Elves that haven't specced into stealth shouldn't be better at stealth than humans specced into stealth, so yeah, this is good.

[Patuk]

Seems fair, entirely reasonable.

[Big Red]

Good find, good fix, good work Hal, no notes. 

[Dresan]

So just to clarify, if you have hide/sneak from guild/sub-guild everything should remain the same even with high agility

While it is technically a nerf to elves, most elves would probably have some class/sub-class version of stealth.  I didn't even know there was a natural sneak/hide, honestly it seems more of a bug to me since it sounds rather OP. Though that would be assuming it benefited from environmental bonuses. But I am unsure if that is the case though. 


As long as elves that choose to take any sort of stealth are still better than others with the same level, its all good. 

[Roon]

I sent in a request last year to ask about this because I felt sure that I had seen innate master sneak/hide on previous d-elf PCs, but the one I was playing at the time was capped at advanced despite having high enough agility. I surmised that the class/subclass was giving me a lower cap in hide and sneak than I would have had if I just had the innate skill.

Staff told me that a) I was wrong that d-elves could naturally reach master sneak/hide and b) class/subclass reducing your caps in innate skills was intended game design. So both of those answers were just straight-up false? I was miffed at the time because I felt like that was the case, but I couldn't really prove it.

[Halaster]

I sent in a request last year to ask about this because I felt sure that I had seen innate master sneak/hide on previous d-elf PCs, but the one I was playing at the time was capped at advanced despite having high enough agility. I surmised that the class/subclass was giving me a lower cap in hide and sneak than I would have had if I just had the innate skill.

Staff told me that a) I was wrong that d-elves could naturally reach master sneak/hide and b) class/subclass reducing your caps in innate skills was intended game design. So both of those answers were just straight-up false? I was miffed at the time because I felt like that was the case, but I couldn't really prove it.

My guess that whoever told you that didn't have access to code to verify, I dunno.

[Dresan]

One small thing to note is that the few advantages that city elves have come from the current balance that exist in classes. If we had reverted back to something more akin to guilds, like the ones there suggested during the time of the subclasses update, most of those advantages would disappear.

Currently, I don't think city elves are in a bad place code-wise, certainly there are many challenges to playing city elves but those challenges are fun to over come, notably perhaps only for the person playing the elf, not anyone else. What I will say is stuff like natural stealth, skills like sleight of hand, or haggle feel like unnecessary fluff that has little impact on RP experience and may make it harder for c-elves to get the quality of life improvements they may need in the future.

As an example, instead of natural stealth, if city elves choose to be good at one type of stealth, they could be good at all stealth, not getting any skill, but getting both city and wilderness flags. This would have made even a change from classes to guilds less of a nerf to c-elves.  After all, until yank down from mount becomes a command, stealth is survival equivalent of  ride, charge and trample for elves.

Again, I don't think elves need any direct 'buffs' now, but certainly depending on how the game changes over time, some more quality of life improvements would be something to consider in the future. Finally, I am not sure what the purpose is for the game to have any level of 'natural' stealth, but I am not sure this should exist at all, not just nerfed. It should just be a player choice to have access to stealth or not.


I don't want to derail the discussion into anything to do with elves but its still somewhat related.

[Kavrick]

As an example, instead of natural stealth, if city elves choose to be good at one type of stealth, they could be good at all stealth, not getting any skill, but getting both city and wilderness flags. This would have made even a change from classes to guilds less of a nerf to c-elves.  After all, until yank down from mount becomes a command, stealth is survival equivalent of  ride, charge and trample for elves.

I fail to understand why city elves would have the option to get wilderness stealth. Also giving a race omnistealth is bonkers, elves are already the strongest race for agility or wisdom based characters.

[Hulrouk]

Also giving a race omnistealth is bonkers, elves are already the strongest race for agility or wisdom based characters.

While wisdom is straightforward, it's not exactly true that elves are the strongest for agility based characters due to interactions of calculations.  They are, however, the strongest for -stealth- based characters, but to a degree that is overemphasized and this fix is targeting.

Elves will remain 'better' at stealth, just not to the point that the race trumps the skillset.

Omnistealth has always been iffy for me (and I've used it myself often).  I think 'cross stealth' should be a subclass all it's own with no other skills, and you're otherwise restricted to your main class's stealth.  I.e. A human infiltrator/outdoorsman (whatever wilderness class) would still only have city stealth.  A human infiltrator/stealth specialist would get their subguild's main stealth skills to cross over into desert stealth as well.  Which makes everyone mad, but it really is both weird and super powerful, leading to this 'I can be anywhere' playstyle that has become more popular.

[Dusty Boots]

Omnistealth has always been iffy for me (and I've used it myself often).  I think 'cross stealth' should be a subclass all it's own with no other skills, and you're otherwise restricted to your main class's stealth.  I.e. A human infiltrator/outdoorsman (whatever wilderness class) would still only have city stealth.  A human infiltrator/stealth specialist would get their subguild's main stealth skills to cross over into desert stealth as well.  Which makes everyone mad, but it really is both weird and super powerful, leading to this 'I can be anywhere' playstyle that has become more popular.

In most games, stealth isn't really relegated into types so I really think this'd just annoy people without much upside if I were to be blunt. Also I think Criminal main guilds gain a lot more from omnistealth than wilderness main guilds. The reason behind this is that criminal guilds have far more 'stealth mechanics' than wilderness guilds. Sap, steal, slight of hand, backstab, peek. Wilderness sneak is 'just don't be seen' with no extra mechanics.

[Dresan]

Omnistealth has always been iffy for me (and I've used it myself often).  I think 'cross stealth' should be a subclass all it's own with no other skills, and you're otherwise restricted to your main class's stealth. 

I once suggested splitting up stealth to its different city and wilderness skills without any cross pollination. It wasn't met with warm reception. Its a compromise to what you are suggesting in that a city or wilderness classes choosing city or wilderness stealth subclass options doesn't give them higher levels of stealth for two different environments. Pretty sure the idea wouldn't fly today either though.

That said, I would love to someday see a mundane sub-guild that focused on duo stealth and perception skills like a spy/explorer mix, that could get in and out of places, including remote locations quietly to gather information.  Maybe boosting wisdom as well. The current options that come close are touched subclasses, and they are lackluster with mundane skills to balance out the cool magick.I would love to see pure mundane versions. Again not quite what you are suggesting but, one can dream

[zealus]

Let's keep this topic about this change. If you want to discuss elves in general, please make a new thread, thanks.

[Inky]

What will the practical impact of this be for most players?

Suppose I wanted to make an elf miscreant with decent agility for my next character. Would I notice a change?

[Roon]

What will the practical impact of this be for most players?

Suppose I wanted to make an elf miscreant with decent agility for my next character. Would I notice a change?

No, you'd be unaffected. This change only concerns innate hide and sneak gained from your race. As far as I know, desert elves are the only ones who have that, and it would only affect d-elf characters who do not get these skills from their class or subclass.

Previously, if you had high enough agility, the innate racial d-elf sneak and hide could reach master--but if you picked a class or subclass that gave sneak/hide at less than master, you would "lose" the innate maximum and get the worse version that your class or subclass has. So a d-elf fighter/linguist with enough agility would be able to reach master in sneak and hide, but a d-elf raider/linguist or fighter/outdoorsman couldn't because raider and outdoorsman have advanced in those skills. After this change, a d-elf fighter wouldn't be able to reach master in sneak and hide no matter what.

I wonder about city elves and their innate sleight of hand skill. Before the recent change that swapped their steal skill for sleight of hand, c-elf steal could reach master the same way. I don't know if that has been the case for their sleight of hand, or if it is, is that subject to change?

[Dresan]

My understanding is:

• High agility characters with class/subclass stealth skills are not impacted
• Racial skills are not impacted.

[Halaster]

What will the practical impact of this be for most players?

Suppose I wanted to make an elf miscreant with decent agility for my next character. Would I notice a change?

You would notice absolutely nothing, since miscreant gets hide/sneak.  This will only affect people who do not get hide or sneak on their skill sheet from their guild or subguild.

[Halaster]

My understanding is:

• High agility characters with class/subclass stealth skills are not impacted
• Racial skills are not impacted.

Correct.

Every single person has a 'natural' ability to hide and sneak.  Basically a default chance to pull them off, even if you don't have the skill.  By itself, it's rather low, but high agility has an enormous impact on that, so much so that it puts those above the caps for most subguilds who do get hide/sneak.  The change is going to be lowering the impact of high agility on hide and sneak for those who don't have it.

[Nao]

My understanding is:

• High agility characters with class/subclass stealth skills are not impacted
• Racial skills are not impacted.

Correct.

Every single person has a 'natural' ability to hide and sneak.  Basically a default chance to pull them off, even if you don't have the skill.  By itself, it's rather low, but high agility has an enormous impact on that, so much so that it puts those above the caps for most subguilds who do get hide/sneak.  The change is going to be lowering the impact of high agility on hide and sneak for those who don't have it.

I recently tried to 'hide' on a character that doesn't have the skill, and seemed to run into the same infinite delay that happens when you 'search' without having the skill (and probably with some other commands that I don't remember).

So is this even working for hide or does this only affect sneak?

[Roon]

Wait, you weren't talking about racial innate skills, i.e. desert elf's hide and sneak?

I'm confused now.

You can't even attempt to hide at all if the skill isn't on your skill sheet. Or, that is, you can type 'hide' and it'll 'begin looking for a place' but it doesn't actually resolve and attempt to hide.

[Hulrouk]

To be fair, I'm also confused, my understanding was different, haha.

[Hindsight]

Yeah, now I'm confused.. 

[Twilight]

My interpretation...

When you get a skill added to your skillsheet that is not on the guild or subguild skill lists, there are a couple of things that can influence the max of that skill. We used to see that with ride a lot, under the old classes that were not ranger, and was why you would see different ride max for half giant warrior than super agility half-elf warrior, when they just got ride from using it the first time.

But it takes the skill on the skillsheet.  How I interpreted it was that if you somehow get sneak or hide on your skillsheet but it is not given by guild or subguild, agility was determining the max.  For certain high agility characters, this would give them master sneak/hide. Racial "innate" desert elf sneak/hide is probably just putting the skill on the skillsheet (maybe as hidden, been awhile since I played a desert elf).  Since Nessalin I think once confirmed there is no racial skill list thing, just guild / subguild, doing this would look to agility.  Because, yeah, you can't hide without the skill on your skillsheet.

[Agent_137]

Echoing the questions...


So are you saying that if I played a PC who had super agility, but no hide skill on the skill list, then I would have had without needing to train anything master sneak and even master hide (if the hide command didn't bug out)?

But if I took the exact same PC and stats and added the hide skill, it would be capped to the skill on the sheet, possibly lower?

And all this time we could have been sneaking around effectively without the skill at all?

I mean if all that's true good fix. Is there anything else like that? And does it mean that being able to attempt dude without the skill is intended? We all assumed it was prevented on purpose.

[Dresan]

Is there anything else like that?

As you know, you can attempt a few skills without having the skill with some measure of success for example skinning and direction sense.

It is just that with sneak/hide the bonuses from extreme high agility made it better that sub-guild version when you did not have the skills from class or subclass. Not sure if other stats have as significant impact on skill performance as agility has on stealth skills, though its not likely.

Most people are not likely to notice any change, as few people likely use hide/sneak without having those skills on their list. 

And again as per Halaster:

The change is going to be lowering the impact of high agility on hide and sneak for those who don't have it.

[Twilight]

There are three situations though, not two.

1. No skill at all.  Depends on what bonuses the skill gives.  Like not having climb at all, you can still climb, or skinning when you don't have skin.
2. Have skill on your skillsheet (when you type skill) but not on your skill list (the skills guild/subguild give).  Like ride or pilot if you don't get them through guild or subguild.
3. Have skills on your skillsheet because your guild or subguild get them.


I think it is #2 that is confusing, and what I assumed this was about when I read it, because I don't think you can hide at all in situation #1.

[Big Red]

I have no direct view under the hood but from Halaster's post it sounds like what was up is that there were different formulas for agility skill checks depending on whether or not your PC had the skill in question, and in the formula for trained skill checks the applicable bonus from agility was capped, but for untrained skill checks, it wasn't.

[Halaster]

Ok, so time for me to eat some humble pie. I was very wrong about this whole thing.  @Nao posed the question "I recently tried to hide on a character that doesn't have the skill, and seemed to run into the same infinite delay", which made me stop and think that yeah, this makes no sense what I'm telling y'all.

FORGET everything I said so far, apologies.    I took another look and had Zorkbob the Inhaler double-check me.

If you don't have hide or sneak on your skill-list, you simply can't do it.  As Nao points out, you get in that infinite delay on hide (which I need to fix).  For sneak, you're just not going to succeed.

The 'innate' maximum I'm talking about, is for people who get the skill added but it's not part of their guild or subguild.  The most common example is desert elves; they get hide and sneak added as a racial thing even if their guild/subguild doesn't normally get it.  And the 'innate' max is for THAT scenario.

Another example is if you do a specapp and trade some skill for sneak or hide that you wouldn't normally get for your guild/subguild.

Clear as mud?

So in summary:

- If your guild or subguild gets it, that is your max, period.
- Else if your guild or subguild do not get it, but you have it added for some reason (desert elf, specapp), this 'innate' max applies, which is higher than most any subguild can achieve.
- Otherwise, if it's not on your skill list, you will not succeed at hide or sneak.

I still plan to lower that innate max, which means people like desert elves will not be able to get to 'master' unless their guild or subguild provides it.  Instead, it will cap at low advanced.

[Halaster]

This is my final answer, Regis.

[Athapaxis]

Well you've asked the audience and phoned a friend - so now you're locked in.  Let's find out if you've won a million dollars!

[LindseyBalboa]

instead of nerfing high agility characters by lowering the bonus they get across-the-board why don't we just put an actual cap in place at low advanced for natural stealth skill?

ie, if your don't have the skill from subguild/guild it just won't count any hide/sneak bonus over a certain point (low advanced).

ex:

sneak1 has +25 to hide/sneak from agi and has hide/sneak added at 50; they lack the skill in guild/subguild; the cap is low advanced (let's say 60); any bonus after hide reaches 60 would be discounted.

sneak2 has +25 to hide/sneak from agi and has hide/sneak in their guild. It caps at 75 (high advanced) in their subguild. They can get to 100.


this would not nerf PCs that have decided to prioritize agi over str/wis/end and accomplish the stated goal re: stealth natural skill mastery

[Twilight]

Don't think this is about the +'s agility gives to sneak and hide at all.  It is about, in certain specific circumstances, your agility determining the max you can get the skill to.  Used to run into issues with ride and heavy spice use because of this.

[Hindsight]

So, if you DO have the skill, the same agility bonus applies to it and nothing has changed?

[Halaster]

So, if you DO have the skill, the same agility bonus applies to it and nothing has changed?

If you have the skill because your guild or subguild give it to you, nothing has changed.

If you have sneak or hide added to your list because of some other reason, the max cap has been lowered, especially for high agility people.  This would affect desert elves who do not get hide or sneak from their guild or subguild.  This would affect someone who got sneak or hide added to their character as part of a special application but do not get hide or sneak from their guild or subguild.

[Doublepalli]

Wow this is quite a big nerf.

You don't nerf half-elf ride passive.

But apprentice sneak/hide does not foot the bill

[Patuk]

He specifically said delves get their innate cap set to advanced, so you can rest easy in knowing it is at an entirely sensible level.

[titansfan]

I totally agree with this. You shouldn't be better at sneaking or hiding just because you're super agile. Bonus to it? Sure. Higher than master guilds/subs? No.

+1