If writing was legalized should common psionics be more limited?

[Agent_137]

Hi I thought this would be fun to theory craft about.

Writing comes up now and then and it's always interesting to me.  I've been told there was a decision at some point decades past to choose the Way or writing. And the Way was chosen as writing had some code limitations at the time.

They do oppose each other some.  Why send a note when you can message someone directly and easily in near perfect secrecy? Sure nobles still write, but it's for offline communication, formal records, and books.  I can't imagine there's much plain message passing.

I'd love to see a push for writing being legalized this season or some future one. But what then to do about the Way?

Writing seems valuable because it offers IC offline communication, postal services, interception, spying, code making and cracking, business records, and no doubt much more than I can think of.

The Way makes some of writings benefits redundant.  But it provides its own benefit in connecting online players easily so they can play together in a world where we shouldn't coordinate OOCly  and there is no public channel. It also provides relatively secure and easy communications, but I'm not sure that's a good game feature. 

I think the game would be best if the Way changed into a public IC channel, perhaps with some range limits alongside a legalization of writing. This would make it easier to find and coordinate both with strangers and with your group. But the channel also is completely insecure giving writing a huge role in secure communication.

What are your thoughts? Obviously this is pie in the sky and may never happen. Just discussing for fun. Cheers.

[Windstorm]

I love it!

Minor psionic irregularities as a mutation should or could be a very fun common thing in general.

And, of course, writing would just be a straight playing enhancement I think. There are sooo many ways in which it would improve gameplay. Offline messages, intercepted messages, secret communications, language learning actually being valuable, IC stories, art, music, historical events being recorded, shared, passed down.

People like making their mark in the world, even in small ways. I know I've loved to in the ways that I have. Writing opening up lets almost anyone do that, long's someone values it enough to preserve it.

[FamousAmos]

Or perhaps Waying should be limited to a certain amount of words.

That way one can still communicate but not as intricate as a letter.

Also, a letter would also make, in example, a signed/sealed contract. Something that cannot be established purely by Way.

[dumbstruck]

I like the Way and RP using it. I feel like making it less prevalent would be directly disadvantageous to people who play psionic based classes and subclasses, and while there is a lot of new and different RP that greater literacy might add, I would not like to lose the ability to carry on a conversation with someone not in the room. I don't believe it adds enough to subtract stuff from the Way. Additionally I would say Zalanthas is already perhaps not psionic enough, in comparison to its source material, and I don't think that going further in that direction would be positive to the setting or to the game play.

[Inky]

Psionics in this game is a broken mess. For a game that's supposed to be about intrigue, its silly that the only way to eavesdrop on common and ubiquitous telepathic messages ... is to be a karma 9 monster class.

I've played games where this is handled better too. It actually feels like you need to be careful what information you share in them.

[parallax]

The problem with IC public psych channels is that it often removes physical encounters. People socialize entirely on that public channel because we kind of tend to be lazy or just because its safer not to physically go out. It makes it so people interface very little in person which I think is a super bummer. I would think waying should be made a bit harder if writing was introduced. I play another game that has a public channel and I'd totally remove it or make it SUPER costly (in whatever way) if I could.

[Kavrick]

Waying is one of those weird things that is honestly a little immersion breaking. The game is supposed to be low-magic and yet every single person on the planet can communicate through AoL instant messaging in their brain. I understand that it mostly exists for ooc convenience, but I would honestly prefer writing to just be a thing and give people ways to communicate with it. Writing in other muds has always been such a cool thing, being able to read books written by previous characters, or just generally giving more room to discover lore by finding writing in game. Armageddon has a bunch of cool lore secrets that are literally just impossible to ever discover because no one can read and that's just a little sad.

I've also never understood why tribals and elves would care about the templarate's ban on writing. If the whole idea is supposed to be 'writing is illegal to stop people learning sorcerery', why not shift it to 'writing about sorcerer is illegal'. Not only does this keep the theme, but it actually gives templars and mage hunters things to do by tracking down writing about magick and destroying it. Overall I just feel like the ban on writing takes away so much opportunity in the game.

[Tailong]

The main reason I play here is the fact this game is based on the Dark Sun world. Now, however loosely that might be, it is a major factor of me being here for so long. One of those reasons is the fact that literacy is so guarded.

Psionic abilities are severely hindered from Dark Sun, but is such a HUGE part of the world its not funny, and is often overlooked because of it. Its a shame really, because the Way has became a basic function of every living creature on the planet, from bugs to humanoids, and most of us only see one aspect of it, the Unseen Way.

Should be able to read and write? Sure. I also think you should pay the price of learning that knowledge.

[RheaGhe]

Psionics as they are, are a negative space for RP for anyone but those gifted with them. The current space absorbs RP, and doesn't enhance it for anyone without psionic abilities.

Honestly, I'd love to see a few psionic subclasses sprinkled about the karma layers. With the full on mindworm level stuff being up there in Karma.

I think an equivalent of Psionic touched at 3 Karma, granting one or two psionic abilities, an equivalent of a branch or a half a branch of psionics at 6 karma, and a full on psionicist at 9 would be fitting.

This would grant people more experience with these abilities, and allow them to experiment with them. And open up the gameplay to a sort of training wheels-esque progression. Allowing greater formation of roleplaying opportunities, and it would make players playing... Genuinely fear the employment of psionicists more. Because they wouldn't be one of 100 or so players. If that.


That said, legalizing writing might also work. But I'd think, from a setting perspective, more would have to shift to legalize writing, than it would to mechanically open up psionic roles a bit more and keep the setting the same.

[FuSoYa]

I'm of the opposite mindset to be honest - though I definitely admit I could be wrong.

However the fact that psionicists are so rare is part of the appeal for me of Armageddon.  Kind of like Tailong said - the low fantasy aspect of this world isn't just a side thing for me, I honestly think it's one of the things that truly make this game so special. 

I also disagree in that somehow making subclass psions a thing and opening that up for general play would not make me fear true psionicists more.  It would make them just another thing.

I do agree that it's sometimes rough feeling like it might be something you will never get to experience.  If I ever have the option to play a psionicist in a game I ALWAYS pick that option (mainly thinking of CRPGs i.e. Pathfinder by Owlcat or Pillars of Eternity) so I definitely understand the appeal.  That being said - I have a ton of faith in where the game is right now and where the staff seem to be on philosophy so who knows, anything is possible right?

[Inky]

Yes. The frightening mind melting psionicist... just branched the ability to... read the way after twenty days of play.

Nah. Psionicists havn't really ever been a part of armageddon. Other than as powerful clan leaders. Everyone else gets popped because they made another pc feel a tickle.

[Inky]

Honestly, I'd love to see a few psionic subclasses sprinkled about the karma layers. With the full on mindworm level stuff being up there in Karma.

I think an equivalent of Psionic touched at 3 Karma, granting one or two psionic abilities, an equivalent of a branch or a half a branch of psionics at 6 karma, and a full on psionicist at 9 would be fitting.

This is a good idea and I'm frankly surprised it hasn't been done yet.

[dumbstruck]

Honestly, I'd love to see a few psionic subclasses sprinkled about the karma layers. With the full on mindworm level stuff being up there in Karma.

I think an equivalent of Psionic touched at 3 Karma, granting one or two psionic abilities, an equivalent of a branch or a half a branch of psionics at 6 karma, and a full on psionicist at 9 would be fitting.

This is a good idea and I'm frankly surprised it hasn't been done yet.

Honestly, I'd love to see a few psionic subclasses sprinkled about the karma layers. With the full on mindworm level stuff being up there in Karma.

I think an equivalent of Psionic touched at 3 Karma, granting one or two psionic abilities, an equivalent of a branch or a half a branch of psionics at 6 karma, and a full on psionicist at 9 would be fitting.

This is a good idea and I'm frankly surprised it hasn't been done yet.

[/quote]

Same. I love this conceptually. I've always wanted to play a character who could hear thoughts and feel feelings of others. The rest of it I honestly don't give a crap about. But those 2, those are the best parts for RP and some of the less abusable abilities. I would love to see that be a thing.

[Evilone]

I hate the Way. I wish Arm didn't have it, but I've come from RPI's where no such thing existed and things were fine without it. There are advantages about knowing if someone is online with the Way, but I think personal 'hangout' spots would become more of a thing and I like that. "I wonder where the Sergeant would be right now? Let's check the office. Not there? Well he does like to drink at the Gaj, let's check there. Or his special spot he likes to watch the city from the roofs" etc. It's been a long time since I've not relied on the Way, maybe it sounds better in theory cause I haven't really thought it through. Hard to say at the moment. There would be a greater use for Spies however, and I like that.

Writing could still be illegal, but there should be a guild, or subguild, e.g Linguist that should get writing, they just have to not get caught or face harsh punishment by the authorities. Letters and books more readily seen to record history and so on is a huge RP element ARM is lacking in. Let the PC Guild Boss have it maybe? It would be an interesting service they could provide, writing secret letters for folks.

BUT, I'd much rather if it was just legal, and the Atrium could offer it as a service to teach people reading and writing for those with the wealth (should be really expensive).

[The Lonely Hunter]

I don't think writing should be legalized. The masses are kept ignorant on purpose and it makes perfect sense for the setting.

I think psionics are fine the way they are. There might be a little room for fine-tuning, but not much. There's a lot of people who comment about the psionic class but it's always been a very high karma class and I can't imagine everyone with an opinion regarding them has played one.

[Refugee]

I miss writing like I've done in other MUDs.  I like to journal my characters' experiences and thoughts for posterity.  I think it creates a more multifaceted history of events, and it's interesting to research (if you have that kind of PC) all the views of something that happened. 

My favorite PC that I ever played was a Master Sage for the government's military, who spent a lot of his time reading archives from generations past, and he created many, many books of his own about the things he saw, and the stories the soldiers would tell him from their points of view.

I can understand why the government(s) in Arm would prefer to keep their populace illiterate.  It would be very dangerous for characters to write about some things they saw or heard, particularly those commoners who moved in political circles.  I think that would have to be taken into consideration because the powerful would be pretty paranoid about it.

[Dresan]

Writing could still be illegal, but there should be a guild, or subguild, e.g Linguist that should get writing, they just have to not get caught or face harsh punishment by the authorities. Letters and books more readily seen to record history and so on is a huge RP element ARM is lacking in. Let the PC Guild Boss have it maybe? It would be an interesting service they could provide, writing secret letters for folks.

I have mixed feeling.

On the one hand I love this idea and would want to see linguists not only know how to read and write, but have be able to teach other people. However, it should be made clear that if you are caught with the ability, you will be enslaved or executed. So choose or learn this at your own risk. This could lead to a lot of fun as notes and other messages are uncovered.

On the other hand, with steal somewhat nerfed this season, the only way i see this working is if writing papers were indestructible. This would  allow people to find and take the writings at some point. I think historically we've seen that having no secrecy was a demerit to the game, but at the same time having too much secrecy doesn't feel much better either. I do feel listen, especially into other rooms with sitting people should be boosted, furthering the need to know different languages or take more precaution.

I am happy to be proven wrong but I am unsure reading and writing would be as much of a boon as people believe, especially given it that unsafe waying and public places drives the need for languages and personal meetings in private rooms in the game.  NPCS messengers to remember and pass short messages to people once they log in would suffice in many instances where writing is valuable.

[Lizzie]

With writing comes technology and enlightenment. Can't have that in a game where oppression is the driving force of conflict. Keeping the ignorant masses from getting their grubby claws on enlightenment is what allows the nobility, GMH seniors, templarate their position of being able to oppress everyone else.

Writing should remain illegal, with opportunities to learn incredibly limited.

The Way doesn't replace writing.

[dumbstruck]

Honestly I think tribals should be able to r/w bendune (honestly with elves allundean). The helpfile discusses the written side of the language making it very apparent that it is not just a spoken but also a written language. There is also not the Templarate in tribal camps keeping them from learning to do it. There's no law against it outside of Allanak (and Tuluk but Allanak bc Tuluk isn't playable rn). I get the angle of not letting commoners read and write (and especially not sirihish as that is what noble missives are likely to be written in). But outside of Allanak? With a language that the helpfile clearly indicates has a written form? I would love to play someone who writes bendune poetry IC.

(I still don't think you should make the Way harder.)

[Kavrick]

With writing comes technology and enlightenment. Can't have that in a game where oppression is the driving force of conflict. Keeping the ignorant masses from getting their grubby claws on enlightenment is what allows the nobility, GMH seniors, templarate their position of being able to oppress everyone else.

Writing should remain illegal, with opportunities to learn incredibly limited.

The Way doesn't replace writing.

Reading/writing and oppression are verifiably not mutually exclusive. Historically reading and writing, along with education and controlled media has been a driving force of oppression and indoctrination. They were both massively used during WW2 between both allied and axis forces to oppress their citizens and even modern day countries (that I wont get into the politics of for obvious reasons) use this sort of oppression. Lots of fantasy and cyberpunk settings use reading and writing for these reasons too. But yeah the idea that you cant have reading and writing in a setting with oppression is categorically false.

Also none of this explains why non-city state people don't read and write. Tribals, Cenyrians, Desert elves. As DS mentioned, bendune has always been implied to have a r/w, but it just doesn't exist mechanically. There's no real explanation for this as far as I can tell. Especially considering most human tribals are nomadic traders, trade and writing go hand-in-hand.

[Inky]

I don't think writing should be legalized. The masses are kept ignorant on purpose and it makes perfect sense for the setting.

I think psionics are fine the way they are. There might be a little room for fine-tuning, but not much. There's a lot of people who comment about the psionic class but it's always been a very high karma class and I can't imagine everyone with an opinion regarding them has played one.

This is the case where gameplay should trump setting. Creating a new avenue for players to express their characters should be more important than the b-tier fantasy setting.

And no. From another gameplay perspective, psionics are broke as hell.

[Lizzie]

I don't think writing should be legalized. The masses are kept ignorant on purpose and it makes perfect sense for the setting.

I think psionics are fine the way they are. There might be a little room for fine-tuning, but not much. There's a lot of people who comment about the psionic class but it's always been a very high karma class and I can't imagine everyone with an opinion regarding them has played one.

This is the case where gameplay should trump setting. Creating a new avenue for players to express their characters should be more important than the b-tier fantasy setting.

And no. From another gameplay perspective, psionics are broke as hell.

The avenues for players to express their characters aren't used all that much now. When was the last time you saw the results of the scribble command? How often does your character, or any character in your character's circle of friends/clannies, draw things? When was the last time you used the "mood" command? How many players even realize it exists, let alone use it on a regular basis to express their characters?

The avenue for reading and writing in game already exists, and it's built into the theme of the game. It's one of the potential "rewards", both ICly and OOCly. From an OOC standpoint, opportunities exist to create specialty characters (nobles, templars, GMH family sponsored roles), and then knock yourself out reading and writing stuff to your heart's content from day 1 out of the Hall of Kings. From an IC standpoint, there are rare opportunities to learn how to read, after showing up as a character who cannot. That requires a LOT of IC work, keeping your character alive for a long time, manipulation, ingratiating yourself with the "right" characters, or blackmailing them - or kidnapping them - tons of plotlines involving more than one person.

If you just give it to everyone, you eliminate those rare moments when your character accomplishes something that is ICly astounding.

[Inky]

The avenues for players to express their characters aren't used all that much now. When was the last time you saw the results of the scribble command? How often does your character, or any character in your character's circle of friends/clannies, draw things? When was the last time you used the "mood" command? How many players even realize it exists, let alone use it on a regular basis to express their characters?

I've seen all but one of these used since season one started. And even if they didn't, I would be glad existed. Scribble in particular could use some code work though so it doesn't go bad so quickly.

The avenue for reading and writing in game already exists, and it's built into the theme of the game. It's one of the potential "rewards", both ICly and OOCly. From an OOC standpoint, opportunities exist to create specialty characters (nobles, templars, GMH family sponsored roles), and then knock yourself out reading and writing stuff to your heart's content from day 1 out of the Hall of Kings. From an IC standpoint, there are rare opportunities to learn how to read, after showing up as a character who cannot. That requires a LOT of IC work, keeping your character alive for a long time, manipulation, ingratiating yourself with the "right" characters, or blackmailing them - or kidnapping them - tons of plotlines involving more than one person.

If you want it to be rare, make it a karma 6 subclass instead of a karma 2 subclass. If you want players to learn to read over multiple real life years... uhhh no that's a ridiculous waste of time for everyone and probably unattainable.

[ABoredLion]

One thing that might be cool would be to make it a kind of "made" commoner thing. Like, any commoner that's above a certain level of society can get granted the right to learn it (pending some notation and templar interaction) but then can never really 'leave' those upper echelons of society following that. For instance, a quite senior aide to Lord Templar Fancipants can learn it, but now if the Lord Templar dies, they have to seek employment with a noble house or another templar, because they're not allowed to just go off into the desert with their knowledge and live as a hunter.

Same goes for noble houses. Perhaps very high ranks in militia and so on.

Important to keep the drawback however that they then can't ever really 'leave' that life. You're documented by the templarate and can write, but if you try to leave, you get murdered. Same rules in general for possession of writing/ability to read for anyone else that isn't "made".

I don't think I'd want the Way changed at all though.

[Tuannon]

My only issue with the lifesworn literate idea is player clashes. You are kind of rail roaded, but with the option of shifting to the templarate is kind of a work around. If you have the misfortune of having a low viability new employer and a low viability templar it's storage time.

[Agent_137]

I'm enjoying reading and learning from all the perspectives!

While I get it's interesting as a goal/reward, it's so limited now that pursuing it as a non-sponsored role would be idiotic.  What are you going to read? A whole lot of nothing. If you write something who will read it or even keep it? Nobody.

Maybe some rentable scribes overseen by Templars could allow for more gameplay and plot and player creativity without undermining too much oppression.  The government reading everything everyone writes is way more oppressive than nobody writing anything imo. 

I led a player clan for a time that could have greatly benefited from literacy. We had plenty of bribe money, and extensively used drawing to get around the limitation.  We were scared enough just having the drawings. It was all very fine IC, but OOCly being able to pay for use of a scribe would have been a lot more interesting. Texts could have been left. Communications could have been passed offline.  Texts could be smuggled.

Texts existing in the commoner sphere outside GMH blooded leadership actually gives players a reason to risk learning literacy and Templars a new thing to oppress. There would be new interesting gameplay and more chances to create and find player impact on the world. Maybe it doesn't need to be openly legal, but at least being rentable and monitored would produce tons of new player-made plot and content at no cost.

[cnemus]

I do not want writing to be legalized. I would like to see contact limited to advanced for non psionicists.

While I do see the arguments for reducing/limiting the Way even further for immersion, I think it would decrease participation. If something is happening right now you can currently tell people over the Way and they can get involved. If you have to track them down in person, whatever is happening will be over and people will miss out on the opportunity to get involved. There is also the consideration that less Way usage decreases opportunities for those characters that use it more extensively.

I would argue those in lifesworn roles are already handling and around writing enough that they are the ideal candidate to learn it right now. I don't know that policy/law has to change for that to be a thing.

Tatlum is also illegal, but if you play around templars long enough you're going to learn it.

[Riev]

Fun fact. I learned Tatlum once because Samos spoke it on accident and I popped it.

I then thought "Heh. Some more work with that, and I'll learn the Templarate's language of power!"

... That character did not last.

[sleepyhead]

You know, I kind of like the way things are to an extent because it makes reading and writing something special and mysterious to the common folk. BUT! I also think an information war on and about literacy would be really cool, like if pockets of illegal literacy started to pop up. I think it would make an awesome theme for a season if staff could find a good game design to make it work. Imagine underground societies trying to spread the secrets of literacy in the city and the powers that be trying to clamp down on it. Maybe the literate mafia even brings these secrets to a tribe who develops their own method of writing. Since it'd be in another season it'd give staff a chance to fix some of the coded issues with books and other written materials that exist, and expand on the code if they have any ideas.

[Veselka]

I'd personally love to see the Unseen Way become more limited regionally -- meaning you could send a Way to people who are in the same city as you, but outside of it, your chances of finding people's minds diminishes, your ability to send messages diminishes or fails altogether.

I could see it making way for literacy to be more valuable.

Honestly, from the OOC perspective, we're playing a text-based MUD. It's always astounded me why we've held on to the Dark Sun anti-literacy feature (?) for this long. It's one of the greatest strengths of the game (text based medium) that we are choosing to not explore more widely...

Maybe it would be a cool thing to explore in a future or far-past timeline within Seasons, and see how it works out.

[MarshallDFX]

like if pockets of illegal literacy started to pop up.

Next, Zalanthan book club

[FlyingFerret911]

If writing was legalized it would contradict the core setting / mythos of the game

[Tuannon]

Pretty much, yep

[RheaGhe]

This is what I meant by allowing more psionic characters on a mechanical level, would require less of the game world to shift than allowing R/W.

[Lizzie]

I'd personally love to see the Unseen Way become more limited regionally -- meaning you could send a Way to people who are in the same city as you, but outside of it, your chances of finding people's minds diminishes, your ability to send messages diminishes or fails altogether.

I could see it making way for literacy to be more valuable.

Honestly, from the OOC perspective, we're playing a text-based MUD. It's always astounded me why we've held on to the Dark Sun anti-literacy feature (?) for this long. It's one of the greatest strengths of the game (text based medium) that we are choosing to not explore more widely...

Maybe it would be a cool thing to explore in a future or far-past timeline within Seasons, and see how it works out.

Already gave my thoughts on literacy - but your idea about the Way is interesting. Opens up an opportunity for a new system of "psionic relationships."  If you and a second person are particularly close - you could set your relationship as such (it'd have to be a mutual thing, maybe even an IC phenomenon) and it'd give you access even over long distances.  Great for tribals in clanned tribes, for Sergeants and their First Trooper, Templars and their aides, Guild bosses and their highest-ranking seconds, etc.

[sleepyhead]

like if pockets of illegal literacy started to pop up.

Next, Zalanthan book club

I mean I wouldn't say no to it as long as it was a RoUgH and GrITtY book club

[Veselka]

If writing was legalized it would contradict the core setting / mythos of the game

I guess I think that it's a pretty weak core setting that was borrowed from Dark Sun without consideration of the medium.

I would posit that the inability for 90% of players to engage with writing / literacy is definitely an obstacle to broadening our audience inside a text-based medium.

[wizturbo]

Not a big fan of having psionic touched subclasses.  While I think it sounds fun, the roleplaying demands on psionics are sky high and the karma requirements from my POV should make these just as high karma as playing a full blown psionicist.  This isn't from a hack and slash perspective, this is from a RP/Trust/not sharing OOC info perspective.

I really do love the idea of expanding the amount of psionics an average person could develop though in small ways.  For instance, having some small chance of feels or thoughts bleed through to those around you/linked to you would be really neat, even if it's a pretty rare event.  It would add a lot of texture to the game, and encourage more think/feels which I imagine would improve overall RP quality.  I really do love the idea of building up a psionic affinity for a person that someone brought up earlier too.  I personally think a random chance to develop/improve that channel should be tied to normal Way usage with those individuals though...  it would add some small consequence to repeatedly using the Way to communicate with someone, which could be viewed a positive or negative thing depending on the circumstances.

From my POV, this would be a stellar thing to test out in a Season as part of a global plotline, and could be turned off/tuned later based on it's impact to the game overall.

[Agent_137]

If writing was legalized it would contradict the core setting / mythos of the game

I guess I think that it's a pretty weak core setting that was borrowed from Dark Sun without consideration of the medium.

"Borrowed" as in took a line from the setting and made it even more restrictive which is typical for what Arm has borrowed from DS.

This is from 4E but you find similar notes in 2E:

In most city-states, the templars restrict reading and writing. Common citizens and slaves can be executed for being literate. Merchants can be educated enough to keep accounts, although most are fully literate and seldom face repercussions. Nobles, templars, and other servants of the sorcerer-kings are allowed the privilege of reading and writing without fear. Some nobles teach these skills to their most valuable retainers and slaves as well.

Outside the oppressive city-states, literacy is not constrained. Although few denizens of the wastes bother to learn to read and write, the ability is more common in the wilds than in urban areas. The skill becomes a problem only if one is caught and sold into slavery. Then, literacy is best kept secret.

Athasian player characters are assumed to be literate in the languages they speak unless they choose not to be; a character's theme or background might explain how he or she learned to read and write. Literate characters who were not born into nobility probably should not reveal their skill to the templars.

so yeah anyway we should not be beholden to 3 decade old badly informed and poorly thought out decisions. We should allow ourselves to make new badly informed and poorly thought out decisions!

[RheaGhe]

If writing was legalized it would contradict the core setting / mythos of the game

I guess I think that it's a pretty weak core setting that was borrowed from Dark Sun without consideration of the medium.

"Borrowed" as in took a line from the setting and made it even more restrictive which is typical for what Arm has borrowed from DS.

This is from 4E but you find similar notes in 2E:

In most city-states, the templars restrict reading and writing. Common citizens and slaves can be executed for being literate. Merchants can be educated enough to keep accounts, although most are fully literate and seldom face repercussions. Nobles, templars, and other servants of the sorcerer-kings are allowed the privilege of reading and writing without fear. Some nobles teach these skills to their most valuable retainers and slaves as well.

Outside the oppressive city-states, literacy is not constrained. Although few denizens of the wastes bother to learn to read and write, the ability is more common in the wilds than in urban areas. The skill becomes a problem only if one is caught and sold into slavery. Then, literacy is best kept secret.

Athasian player characters are assumed to be literate in the languages they speak unless they choose not to be; a character's theme or background might explain how he or she learned to read and write. Literate characters who were not born into nobility probably should not reveal their skill to the templars.

so yeah anyway we should not be beholden to 3 decade old badly informed and poorly thought out decisions. We should allow ourselves to make new badly informed and poorly thought out decisions!

Ultimately, the game world is built in such a way that Reading and Writing are what they are right now. In this hypothetical, wherein reading and writing is legalized... You would have to change very fundamental things about how the gameworld and certain things work.

It would require a good degree of effort to shift those gameplay elements of the world around the change. And I wouldn't like to see certain things shifted to a massive degree, reading and writing is allowed to be learned but still massively illegal, guess what, same problems occur as we have now, and it's effectively a nill change situation, except mechanically you have R/W on your sheet.

A huge amount of literature and lore in OUR game, has been built up over the years of commoners not having access to r/w. And so on. Discarding that, might be an idea for a seasonal concept. But it would ultimately be something that would act in defiance of the current world as it has been depicted.

There's also implementation concerns with the proposed ideas with the way. Would it make sense for it to grow more difficult to way someone just inside the gates when I'm just outside them? What about from Allanak to the Rinth? Would we have to run a pathfinding calculation between each player to determine an A* shortest path walking the grid to that person each time a way is sent, and then do some maths to figure out how scrambled the message should be? Would we do it by counting regions? What counts as a region? And so on, and so forth. These are massive hurdles that would have to be overcome programatically when we decide on an implementation. Because the simplest solution: IE, different region = difficult way, might not function in a way that is intuitive.

I do not want the way to become a public channel either. As I've seen what happens in other games, wherein there are massed public channels. It frequently becomes a haven for semi-OOC behavior and IC memetic jokes. Simply due to lack of ability to effectively moderate those.

[Kavrick]

Ultimately, the game world is built in such a way that Reading and Writing are what they are right now. In this hypothetical, wherein reading and writing is legalized... You would have to change very fundamental things about how the gameworld and certain things work.

We just had a pretty massive overhaul of how City elves work, including having every single one of their helpfiles changed. I really don't think writing being outlawed is 'fundamental' considering low little the law about writing even comes up. I would say completely overhauling the psychology of city elves is far more 'fundamental' than something like writing, and that worked out fine.

As other people have mentioned, this is a text-based medium, and completely denying players a playerbase which obviously has a lot of talent and passion for writing access to writing and reading in-game is just a massively lost opportunity in my opinion. I would absolutely love to see what players come up with in regards to songs, books, poetry and all that. The first and last already get done in game, but actually being able to keep them through written word would be awesome. We currently have a couple of super talented bards playing the game, and it's a shame that when the season ends or they die, there's a big chance that their songs will disappear.

[wizturbo]

I think a world where writing is more like spice level of illegal would be cool.  Knowing to read and write isn't extremely rare, but it comes with risks/fines/considerations depending on who you are.

[RheaGhe]

Ultimately, the game world is built in such a way that Reading and Writing are what they are right now. In this hypothetical, wherein reading and writing is legalized... You would have to change very fundamental things about how the gameworld and certain things work.

We just had a pretty massive overhaul of how City elves work, including having every single one of their helpfiles changed. I really don't think writing being outlawed is 'fundamental' considering low little the law about writing even comes up. I would say completely overhauling the psychology of city elves is far more 'fundamental' than something like writing, and that worked out fine.

As other people have mentioned, this is a text-based medium, and completely denying players a playerbase which obviously has a lot of talent and passion for writing access to writing and reading in-game is just a massively lost opportunity in my opinion. I would absolutely love to see what players come up with in regards to songs, books, poetry and all that. The first and last already get done in game, but actually being able to keep them through written word would be awesome. We currently have a couple of super talented bards playing the game, and it's a shame that when the season ends or they die, there's a big chance that their songs will disappear.

They have options for that OOCly, if they really feel that strongly. They can submit those songs as original submissions when the seasons ends. Or even once their character dies IIRC. So that those songs can be remembered OOCly, or even sung ICly if you provide it context as a common tavern song.

Alternatively, if they attract the attention of a noble, the noble could commission a piece that would be written down.

And I would say completely overhauling the psychology of city elves is actually less fundamental, than overhauling the nature of read and write. As that is mostly a gameplay factor. It swapped a skill, and changed the attitudes.

I think a lot of people get caught up in the idea of a modern day well read society. It wasn't until the evolution of widespread empire, and global trade that written language developed outside of the merchant, noble and liturgical class. Which is where it's depicted in Arm. England for example, in the time of Shakespeare(So well WELL beyond Arms time period) had a 13% literacy including men and women. That level was consistent from the roman period on till the Age of globe trotting Empires.

The places that are literate, are literate for a reason within Arm. They are Noble houses, they are merchant houses, and they are the governments and priesthoods of kingdoms larger than your simple commoners.

You want to alter that setup? Where would you store those books that these bards and PCs produce? Where would these bards and PC's be trained to read and write? Who would be teaching them? Would the Templarate players care enough to review each and every text they come across for potential sedition as they thematically should? You see how a staff and players would have to create and enforce a lot more than it seems like? You can handwave a lot, but in handwaving it you would lose a lot of the current tactile feel of the game.

[Kavrick]

I think a world where writing is more like spice level of illegal would be cool.  Knowing to read and write isn't extremely rare, but it comes with risks/fines/considerations depending on who you are.

I agree, read/write outside of allanak/tuluk, don't mention you /do/ read/write when you're in allanak. Also it's been pointed out by several people that it's actually mentioned in the help files that Bendune has a written language but for some reason nobody knows it. There's no reason as why Red Storm, Cenyr, Luir's and the countless elven, dwarven and human tribals wouldn't read/write.

[RheaGhe]

I think a world where writing is more like spice level of illegal would be cool.  Knowing to read and write isn't extremely rare, but it comes with risks/fines/considerations depending on who you are.

I agree, read/write outside of allanak/tuluk, don't mention you /do/ read/write when you're in allanak. Also it's been pointed out by several people that it's actually mentioned in the help files that Bendune has a written language but for some reason nobody knows it. There's no reason as why Red Storm, Cenyr, Luir's and the countless elven, dwarven and human tribals wouldn't read/write.

There's 3 possible explanations within the current framework of knowledge we have about the setting. Two are viable, a mixture of those two is likely. One is an OOC explanation that is possible inaccurate.

1. Allundean and Bendune are tribal/nomadic languages. While extant at one point during a prior unification, the current diaspora, lacking an ability to maintain texts and their teachings over multiple kings ages, likely lost their ability to write and read, while they maintained their ability to speak coherent Bendune and Allundean due to infrequent mixing with other tribes.

2. The Templars wiped out the written texts long ago, knowledge was never recovered.

3. Those help files are fragmentary examples that are probably 15+ years old, and no one really thought about it too much, beyond making a reference to Semitic languages from the Middle East often being spoken with vowels and written without them.

[dumbstruck]

I think a world where writing is more like spice level of illegal would be cool.  Knowing to read and write isn't extremely rare, but it comes with risks/fines/considerations depending on who you are.

I would love this. This would empower my publishing empire of just dogshit trash adventure and romance novels with 'collectors editions' that are magnificent overpriced works of illuminated art for nobles then like little scrawled superpamphlet versions for commoners but also way overpriced part of that paying you off and the Templars shaking you down about said discreet clientele.

Otherwise it'll be a one-day bastard special app who smokes spice and writes novels IC as a hobby.

[Agent_137]

There's a pretty wide gap between what we have now (only nobles and secretly top level blooded GMH) and what Rhea seems to be arguing against (everyone can freely read and write).  Granted giving it to everyone was the opening thought experiment, but most of the ongoing suggestions now are narrower in scope and have a lot of merit.

You don't need any hand waving to move from what we have now to a middle ground (and dark sun accurate) situation where it's still illegal for commoners in cities, but merchants/wealthy can do it in secret, some tribes could do it, and very interested commoners can learn at great risk and actually have shit to read.

On the other topic, the criticisms regarding IC group psionic channels has definitely changed my opinion and reminded me of the buy/sell spam that plagued them even in dragonrealms in the 90s. :/

[Lizzie]

There's a pretty wide gap between what we have now (only nobles and secretly top level blooded GMH) and what Rhea seems to be arguing against (everyone can freely read and write).  Granted giving it to everyone was the opening thought experiment, but most of the ongoing suggestions now are narrower in scope and have a lot of merit.

You don't need any hand waving to move from what we have now to a middle ground (and dark sun accurate) situation where it's still illegal for commoners in cities, but merchants/wealthy can do it in secret, some tribes could do it, and very interested commoners can learn at great risk and actually have shit to read.

On the other topic, the criticisms regarding IC group psionic channels has definitely changed my opinion and reminded me of the buy/sell spam that plagued them even in dragonrealms in the 90s. :/

You hear the thoughts in your mind:
"SELLING!!! 3 GM-made scarves w/+3 str each! TTM!"

Please god no. Prevent, don't correct. Don't break what doesn't need fixing.

[Inky]

On the other topic, the criticisms regarding IC group psionic channels has definitely changed my opinion and reminded me of the buy/sell spam that plagued them even in dragonrealms in the 90s. :/

Silent Heaven has direct and gamewide channels. It does not have this problem. That said, I'm not sure if it's right for Armageddon.

What Armageddon REALLY needs is a way to deal with the "texting under the table" problem that The Way allows. Players naturally gravitate to the secret communication method in ways that are immersion breaking and obviate any real attempts at espionage.

[RheaGhe]

There's a pretty wide gap between what we have now (only nobles and secretly top level blooded GMH) and what Rhea seems to be arguing against (everyone can freely read and write).  Granted giving it to everyone was the opening thought experiment, but most of the ongoing suggestions now are narrower in scope and have a lot of merit.

You don't need any hand waving to move from what we have now to a middle ground (and dark sun accurate) situation where it's still illegal for commoners in cities, but merchants/wealthy can do it in secret, some tribes could do it, and very interested commoners can learn at great risk and actually have shit to read.

On the other topic, the criticisms regarding IC group psionic channels has definitely changed my opinion and reminded me of the buy/sell spam that plagued them even in dragonrealms in the 90s. :/

Functionally what does a narrower change effect? Say you change nothing else, but allow 1 or 2 groups to Read/Write without legality in cities?

The tribals can write? Sure? Are they going to use it commonly enough to be worth the risk? Does it then create an impetus in the cities for a really samey confiscation style search RP by templars and legion on any tribal that enters? Why would every tribal human understand every other tribes written language? And there's more questions I can come up with.

The elves can write? What does that give them except a strange level of privelege over human PC's? Are they going to use it? Are they going to suffer confiscation RP like human tribals would? Why would every tribal elf understand every other tribal elves written language? There's more questions I can come up with.

Human bards in cities can write has potential to be an interesting and novel change with some use, but that's running the risk of character termination by noble and templar for what? Recording a few songs? Where do they learn it? What functionally changes about the world? There's more questions I can come up with.

It's far more complex than just a switch to be flipped, or an attitude to be adjusted. It's a whole aspect of the game world, a nearly core aspect. And one that needs a lot of consideration in the how's and why's to make it consistent if it is changed.

[Agent_137]

Yeah it is complex and needs some more consideration before implementation, but this whole thing is a thought experiment. So your questions are good ones, but they don't make me think the idea of more literacy is a bad one. IMO they all tease at interesting gameplay potential. 

To flesh out the idea a bit and cover some of your questions...

I'd start out just loosening the law from absolutely no writing ever to acknowledgement by Templars that GMH senior members are taught to write cavilish for business and as long as they don't do it openly or piss off a Templar while having writings on them, they're good. This means that us normals that work our way up to senior level could learn if we wanted. And blooded gmh could indulge a bit more.


From there it expands to non-gmh wealthy merchants who bribe their local Templars to overlook any papers in cavilish.

Tribes can either pick up cavilish in this new world or staff could bust out some virtual secret npcs who retained literacy in bendune and allundean.  Tribal players in lore-focused positions could either learn to read icly or work through an npc. It would definitely be kept hidden and secret from Templars, but if Templars walk into a tribe camp there is already going to be a problem with all the mages that most tribes have in some form. 

This greatly benefits tribe play by allowing for player created and recorded lore and history instead of it relying solely on staff documenting and shifts or stories the gdb which wasn't happening anyways.

This also greatly benefits city merchants and clan play by allowing offline IC communication, espionage, and again, player created lore and history.  It also gives these players a new risky goal to chase that actually expands gameplay and isn't just CCs and custom rooms.

And now that it's a bribeable offense instead of immediate death sentence, you can even have PCs teaching subordinate PCs so the subordinates can help them out, and then they can both risk betrayal by the other. Fun fun fun!

Sirihish could easily stay a death sentence. This lets nobles communicate more safely and maintains a big hurdle for 99% of the virtual city commoners who can't afford to learn a new language much less to read it.

PS
>  Why would every tribal human [or elf] understand every other tribes written language?

Because it's the same language and they frequently trade and cooperate. They all have some unique words and codes but it's not far fetched for the script to be the same for a people that interact frequently in peace. Or like I mentioned maybe it's all cavilish bleeding out from GMH. The docs already even say that bendune and allundean have a related parent and written forms, and that cavilish is direct descendent of bendune and sirihish.

PSS
I didn't mean to write a playbook for a future season of literacy, but you asked the questions

[BigWater]

Downgrade reading/writing of non Tatlum languages as bribe worthy offenses like Spice/Theft/etc.  Still illegal, but with more potential than it has now limited to a few percentage points of the player base.

[Feu de Joie]

Harder as in more complex, intricate, and with greater scales of magnitude.

Not harder (more grind)

[Down Under]

Downgrade reading/writing of non Tatlum languages as bribe worthy offenses like Spice/Theft/etc.  Still illegal, but with more potential than it has now limited to a few percentage points of the player base.

I think this would be a fun thing to explore in the next Season, personally. big shift, make Literacy more available (even if it's still technically illegal).

I would love to see more IG writing, more people writing, more things to read. It sucks that in a RPI with a text-based medium, writing is gated behind documentation drawn from Dark Sun and amplified. Dark Sun IP wasn't intended (directly) for a text-based MUD -- If it were, and they were in the writing room, they would say 'Hey, isn't it a bit much to make writing/literacy illegal in a text-based medium?' without a doubt.

I'm not sure there's an analogy, but it feels like playing a TTRPG in person without speaking, only through written notes.

[KakkarotYaBoi]

What if you could use the Way, but you were only able to show images to communicate. No speech?

[dumbstruck]

What if you could use the Way, but you were only able to show images to communicate. No speech?

That was a very cool halfling RP thing that I was sad to see decreased when they disappeared and now for people to often treat it as sus to use images in the Way. Makes me sad. I'd love to see imagery come back in a big way.

[KakkarotYaBoi]

I would love to see it changed to only images to through the Way. This would also be so much more fun for role-playing language barriers. It's too easy to just Way that Desert Elf "We are no threat!" Versus actual body language, or, for just the example "You send the douchy DElf a message with the Way: The suave human appears to be holding an olive branch in your minds eye"

[dumbstruck]

I would love to see it changed to only images to through the Way. This would also be so much more fun for role-playing language barriers. It's too easy to just Way that Desert Elf "We are no threat!" Versus actual body language, or, for just the example "You send the douchy DElf a message with the Way: The suave human appears to be holding an olive branch in your minds eye"

Right. Save the fancy words for those mind witches. When normal people it's ideograms/images. #hereforthat

[KakkarotYaBoi]

Add it to the poll! 

[Agent_137]

Add it to the poll! 

  I like it, but i think it falls under making the way harder if writing gets safer. 

Unless you just want it to be that way regardless of there being more literacy? Brutal!

It does sound like a lot would be in favor of moving literacy to spice-level illegal.  I hope staff see that idea and consider it for a plot or future seasons.

[Lizzie]

I would love to see it changed to only images to through the Way. This would also be so much more fun for role-playing language barriers. It's too easy to just Way that Desert Elf "We are no threat!" Versus actual body language, or, for just the example "You send the douchy DElf a message with the Way: The suave human appears to be holding an olive branch in your minds eye"

"You get the image of a person who clearly needs to meet you under the span within the next hour."

"You get the image of the sender nodding agreement."

"You get the image of someone riding toward you but there are some carrus in the way."

"You get the image of someone coming from the span toward the carrus that are in the way."


So easy to bypass, and it just makes the way clunky.

[Kavrick]

I would love to see it changed to only images to through the Way. This would also be so much more fun for role-playing language barriers. It's too easy to just Way that Desert Elf "We are no threat!" Versus actual body language, or, for just the example "You send the douchy DElf a message with the Way: The suave human appears to be holding an olive branch in your minds eye"

"You get the image of a person who clearly needs to meet you under the span within the next hour."

"You get the image of the sender nodding agreement."

"You get the image of someone riding toward you but there are some carrus in the way."

"You get the image of someone coming from the span toward the carrus that are in the way."


So easy to bypass, and it just makes the way clunky.

It's easy to bypass if you're using really simple examples. Try explaining to someone through the way how to get to cenyr or the mul outpost.

Even if it is easy to 'bypass', it requires creativity and is actually pretty interesting.

[KakkarotYaBoi]

Add it to the poll! 

  I like it, but i think it falls under making the way harder if writing gets safer. 

Unless you just want it to be that way regardless of there being more literacy? Brutal!

It does sound like a lot would be in favor of moving literacy to spice-level illegal.  I hope staff see that idea and consider it for a plot or future seasons.

straight up the Way gets harder, literacy stays as is!