Re: Special Applications

[FuSoYa]

It shouldn't just be this thing where your character gets to be 10% better, with absolutely no drawbacks, because you cashed in a special application. It both cheapens the idea of special applications and creates balance problems (i.e. characters with insanely godlike stats).

If you think about it, Advanced Start is far more than "10% better" with no drawbacks.  +3 to a stat is much, much 'weaker', IMO. Someone with a really great strength but crap skills vs someone with pretty good skills, that +3 strength really doesn't matter.  That said, maybe you don't like that we offer Advanced Starts, too, which.. fair point if that's the case.

Advanced starts felt like a way to provide incentive for people to play as mundanes, since it's only available for mundanes. You're being rewarded for picking a less desirable (but more needed for the game) role instead of using your spec app to roll a mage.
Stat boosts don't have that mundane only restriction. They're just objectively better than normal apps. This isn't case of being rewarded or given reason to play as a certain needed role the same way advanced starts are. I'd probably hate it less if the stat boosts were also limited to just mundanes.

Just an aside - as someone with the ability to play a LOT of the high karma magicker roles, I don't find the mundanes less desirable at all.

A human mundane is BY far the most appealing thing for me to play.

Just another perspective.

[Tailong]

It shouldn't just be this thing where your character gets to be 10% better, with absolutely no drawbacks, because you cashed in a special application. It both cheapens the idea of special applications and creates balance problems (i.e. characters with insanely godlike stats).

If you think about it, Advanced Start is far more than "10% better" with no drawbacks.  +3 to a stat is much, much 'weaker', IMO. Someone with a really great strength but crap skills vs someone with pretty good skills, that +3 strength really doesn't matter.  That said, maybe you don't like that we offer Advanced Starts, too, which.. fair point if that's the case.

Advanced starts felt like a way to provide incentive for people to play as mundanes, since it's only available for mundanes. You're being rewarded for picking a less desirable (but more needed for the game) role instead of using your spec app to roll a mage.
Stat boosts don't have that mundane only restriction. They're just objectively better than normal apps. This isn't case of being rewarded or given reason to play as a certain needed role the same way advanced starts are. I'd probably hate it less if the stat boosts were also limited to just mundanes.

Just an aside - as someone with the ability to play a LOT of the high karma magicker roles, I don't find the mundanes less desirable at all.

A human mundane is BY far the most appealing thing for me to play.

Just another perspective.

This, I prefer mundanes, period, all day every day.

[AKawaiiBear]

Stuff.

I have some serious issues with karma, but this isn't it.

The low karma person who used their spec app to play a high karma class got the better deal.

Well, let's pretend for a second that +3 stats isn't a big deal, if it's so insignificant, why can't it be used alongside an app for a higher karma role, or even an advanced start for that matter?
I'm trying to think of reasons. The only one that comes to mind is extremely cynical.

[ABoredLion]

Another thing people may not be considering is that stat boosts cannot be applied to the subguild magickers. They could only be applied to standard classes, under this system.

I for one appreciate the transparency. It was a good thing to do. I wish I could have used a special application now, but at least I know for the next character.

[Dresan]

Another thing people may not be considering is that stat boosts cannot be applied to the subguild magickers.

Touched are magicker subguilds too, and though lack the power of the other magickal subguild (which do now require special apps to play) they do have mana and the cool ability to cantrip.

That said, at this point, I would trade all but one karma for a cheap forage tool. 

[Seeker]

Thank you.  I like clear rules and expectatuons.

Even if someone doesn't agree with any of the particulars having all the cards on the table for all to see is great.

[dumbstruck]

Stuff.

I have some serious issues with karma, but this isn't it.

The low karma person who used their spec app to play a high karma class got the better deal.

Well, let's pretend for a second that +3 stats isn't a big deal, if it's so insignificant, why can't it be used alongside an app for a higher karma role, or even an advanced start for that matter?
I'm trying to think of reasons. The only one that comes to mind is extremely cynical.

Compare your cynicism with mine. I cynically believe it's because staff already expected a significant minority of people to be angry about stat boosts and didn't want to increase the shitstorm by letting them pair it with other things.

[AKawaiiBear]

Stuff.

I have some serious issues with karma, but this isn't it.

The low karma person who used their spec app to play a high karma class got the better deal.

Well, let's pretend for a second that +3 stats isn't a big deal, if it's so insignificant, why can't it be used alongside an app for a higher karma role, or even an advanced start for that matter?
I'm trying to think of reasons. The only one that comes to mind is extremely cynical.

Compare your cynicism with mine. I cynically believe it's because staff already expected a significant minority of people to be angry about stat boosts and didn't want to increase the shitstorm by letting them pair it with other things.

Why would anyone be angry about players being able to spec app +4 above their current karma and get a stat boost for it vs only people who already have the karma being able to get a stat boost?

You can make a valid argument with magickal sub guilds being true current karma only since they're crazy powerful in ways full mages can't be. But this isn't that.

[Usiku]

Honestly, we didn't expect anyone to be upset about it. We included it because, occasionally, people would send in spec apps wanting to ensure a decent specific stat for a particular concept idea that revolved around it. We never approved these requests in the past because it just 'wasn't something we do'. However, we wanted to accommodate these specific creative concepts, so we recently added it as a spec app option because an important part of our culture shift is to say yes as much as we can. While this type of spec app request is very rare, it might be just what someone needs for their concept.

It's disheartening to see spec apps viewed through the lens of competitiveness and measuring one PC's strength against another's or measuring one spec app option's strength against another's. Aside from Advanced Starts, spec apps are there to support concepts that need a bit of tweaking because they don't quite fit with our out-of-the-box options. That's pretty much always how they are used by players. We don't really get requests for extra strength to overpower others; we get requests like ensuring agility for a PC who wants to sneak sweets into people's pockets using sleight of hand.

[Dresan]

It's disheartening to see spec apps viewed through the lens of competitiveness and measuring one PC's strength against another's or measuring one spec app option's strength against another's.

I respect what you are trying to say here but just to add a small thought. While a lot of people enjoy social roles I think the gameplay, code and rules supports a healthy level of competitveness between players. That said, to the merit of the game 'power' isn't always measured by hard you smack with your weapon. However, for those that do pursue melee badassery whether though banditry, adventuring, dueling, sparring or arena, the game ICly both reward and respects their achievements. This is good fun.

To responsed to a few other concerns, i believe advance starts and +karma spec apps are very powerful options on their own. It doesn't make sense combining them for the same reason it no longer makes sense to combine magick class and mul race or why magick subguild have addition coded restrictions on them.

You can combined coded advantages to one flavor start, if you could do this with coded advanges or +karma options they would have to be nerfed. This game balances itself in unique ways but it does attempt to have some balance.

[roughneck]

More options! Neat.

If you don't like, don't do it.

I can feel the sewer-dweller apps coming in hot!

[Jarvis]

I think its neat

[helix]

I don't think the stat bump is a big deal. There's no difference in 'not being able to catch up' between someone that gets BA/VG/A/A and someone that gets EX/VA/A/A on a normal roll. It's not like every character you roll is going to have AI Strength or Agility (in my ~20 or so characters, I've never had AI anything), so you're always going to be 'behind' someone whether they use the special application or not.

But I've certainly rolled characters that got bad stats for what my intended concept was and, if that concept was important enough for me, I'd use one of these to support it.

I can imagine spending a spec-app on something like infravision, or another such power. That's just an interesting character to play. Mostly though, I'm just glad for the transparency on what kinds of things you'd be willing to consider and how staff views the 'trade' of powers and/or skills in the game.

[Delusion]

Now that the intention has been described in more detail and pretty much everyone is saying that nobody would use it to have a human with near-mul-like strength anyway, a restriction could be put in where stats can't be increased where they are already at exceptional or higher. Maybe even just a limit on human, dwarf and half-elf stats. I realize that elf strength starts from a much lower base.

[CirclelessBard]

Healthy debate is welcomed, but some rule 1 breaks have caused the conversation to run its course. Some rule breaking posts have been moved.