Re: Special Applications

[Roon]

Listed as one of the new perks you can get from a special application is:

- add 3 points to any stat(s) of your choice, divided how you like, after final rolls are made (meaning, after you've rerolled and kept it, or reverted, or not rerolled).

I hate this so much that I can't express it without getting suspended.

Anytime there has been discussion about buying stat boosts, there has been widespread disagreement. Coded advantages should come in one of two forms:

1) Things that can be earned in-game. Skill boosts, equipment, wealth, things like that. There shouldn't be a special grade of superior premium characters that can only be accessed via special application.

2) Things that have a tradeoff. Races with restrictions and limitations, persecuted classes, political status (e.g. a noble's bastard child with literacy), something with a give and take where the benefits are balanced against potential disadvantages.

It shouldn't just be this thing where your character gets to be 10% better, with absolutely no drawbacks, because you cashed in a special application. It both cheapens the idea of special applications and creates balance problems (i.e. characters with insanely godlike stats).

[Kavrick]

>Insert rant about random stats here.

[Delusion]

I expect in most cases that will mean +3 to strength.

[dumbstruck]

TBH I think the announcement was fire.

I'm sorry you're upset about the stats part. It reads like a lot of compromises in the game - a compromise. A half measure. Because neither extreme is the desired outcome. If you want to trade your special app out for some mild stat boosts, do you.

I just really like having a framework to point to for what is a reasonable special app and what is not. It seems like it has the potential to be really helpful overall and streamline the special app process while showing specific options to people who may not have known previously were options.

[Windstorm]

I'm not totally hyperaware of the numbers behind everything but I don't think three points will take a PC to godliness. A bad stat roll will, at least certain kinds of achievers/character concepts, "ruin" the PC. Three points might hopefully make that less likely a possibility?

So, it's easy to foresee some problems but it's also kind of what people have been asking for. Arm will never have total agreement on changes of course, but people have a lot of complaints about the statrolling system. This IS a way that, once in awhile and not always, you'll be able to have a little bit of hand in that.

In terms of problems, people might overvalue these PCs maybe too much, thinking "well if I don't have a special app I can't make SUPERGODFIGHTERGUY" and then be excessively dejected when they do something risky/fun and die. To that though, I suggest that you've been playing Arm before without these bonuses and still made your superfighterguy just fine if you know what it looks like, I expect.

I like the announcement. I think it's a bit of give in directions people have long been asking for on the stat thing in particular. Some of the reaction to it is, like Arm players tend to do, maybe going to be oversized. 3 points is probably not really that big a deal but in the minds of those kind of obsessed with the numbers, maybe it will feel like it.

I'd be more worried about infravision being something common, since I.. think that sounds pretty powerful and it's kind of a very unique and indeed, very powerful unique feature of very specific PCs. So, I hope that is distributed, if it is, very carefully and possibly with some downsides. Something like that I'd hope came with a visible mutation, for example.

[CirclelessBard]

Providing guidelines for what makes for an acceptable special app is great, especially considering that staff probably got a deluge of special applications with the reopening and realized that some manner of standardization is needed to make the process easier for everyone.

+3 to your stats might be powerful, but:
- you have to forego a flavor addition
- you have to forego an advanced start
- you have to forego the other possible coded advantage choices
- committing to the option before a roll (even if you get to choose where your three +1s go afterward) is effectively a gamble compared to other choices, which are more constant

The trade off is baked into the special application system itself. It's reasonable to hold the opinion that in-game advantages should come with trade offs. But the logical conclusion to that is scrapping special applications, since the entire point of them is to apply for a character with attributes that go beyond the scope of the normal application process and aren't possible otherwise. From a big-picture standpoint, it means that characters will be different in more unique and unusual ways, and make the story more interesting than if everyone was a "normal" app.

[titansfan]

I love the list of things you can now ask for on a special app! Thanks for creating this and drawing out the options. The stat increase is a great addition to help alleviate stat woes.

[Patuk]

I agree with the view that specapps for stats is not a great idea. I'd much prefer that the other uses are kept, and the stat bit gets scrapped.

[Halaster]

It shouldn't just be this thing where your character gets to be 10% better, with absolutely no drawbacks, because you cashed in a special application. It both cheapens the idea of special applications and creates balance problems (i.e. characters with insanely godlike stats).

If you think about it, Advanced Start is far more than "10% better" with no drawbacks.  +3 to a stat is much, much 'weaker', IMO. Someone with a really great strength but crap skills vs someone with pretty good skills, that +3 strength really doesn't matter.  That said, maybe you don't like that we offer Advanced Starts, too, which.. fair point if that's the case.

[Patuk]

It shouldn't just be this thing where your character gets to be 10% better, with absolutely no drawbacks, because you cashed in a special application. It both cheapens the idea of special applications and creates balance problems (i.e. characters with insanely godlike stats).

If you think about it, Advanced Start is far more than "10% better" with no drawbacks.  +3 to a stat is much, much 'weaker', IMO. Someone with a really great strength but crap skills vs someone with pretty good skills, that +3 strength really doesn't matter.  That said, maybe you don't like that we offer Advanced Starts, too, which.. fair point if that's the case.

The crux of the matter is that you can catch up with the advanced start crowd, especially since training skills early is much easier than doing so late. Catching up with people whose stats are boosted is not, however, a thing.

And yes, I think our random stat system is an issue in general

[Lizzie]

+3 to your stats might be powerful, but:
- committing to the option before a roll (even if you get to choose where your three +1s go afterward) is effectively a gamble compared to other choices, which are more constant

This is why I think adding +3 is a great opportunity. It makes it more attractive, to me, to prioritize my stats. I can add +3 to my dump stat. That way, if the final roll, reroll, reroll-undo gives me "below average" agility, that +3 could theoretically get me to "average."  If you put +3 in any dump stat, you're acknowledging that the dump stat will -probably- not be very good, and you're just giving it a chance to be "better than not very good."

[Krath]

I am fine with the stat, as long as the stats do not go above the Racial Max for said character.

[Roon]

It shouldn't just be this thing where your character gets to be 10% better, with absolutely no drawbacks, because you cashed in a special application. It both cheapens the idea of special applications and creates balance problems (i.e. characters with insanely godlike stats).

If you think about it, Advanced Start is far more than "10% better" with no drawbacks.  +3 to a stat is much, much 'weaker', IMO. Someone with a really great strength but crap skills vs someone with pretty good skills, that +3 strength really doesn't matter.  That said, maybe you don't like that we offer Advanced Starts, too, which.. fair point if that's the case.

I disagree quite strongly. While you may be right if we're talking about the first few days of play in a character's lifespan, the skill boosts from advanced starts are quickly caught up with from playing the game the normal way. You will never catch up with stat boosts. It isn't even an option that you're allowed to pursue. That gap is forever. It cannot be accomplished in-game.

I have no problem at all with advanced starts. That option gives something that can be earned in other ways. Taking an advanced start does not give you a character that is perpetually superior to what others can achieve, and it creates no balance problems. There's nothing wrong with advanced starts. It's not as if you can start with maxed backstab or something, and even if you could, that'd be more acceptable than permanent stat boosts. Doubly so since you didn't say that these stat boosts can't exceed the racial parameters, although I suppose there might be such a limitation that you've simply forgotten to mention. Please say there is at least that.

Stats matter a lot. +3 is a significant boost (greater than the difference in strength between a human and a dwarf), and once one is past the early stages of a character's life and have raised one's skills past the fledgling stage, that stat boost counts for a hell of a lot more than the temporary boon of beginning with a few skills at journeyman or advanced. After five or ten days of play, that advanced start will have tapered off and the character is interchangable from anyone who started with nothing and played for 5-10 days. This is by no means the case with a stat boost, and certainly not three points.

Remember back when extended subclasses cost 'CGP' which regenerated over time, and the problem it caused with players taking breaks from the game if they didn't have CGP for their next character? Because it sucked to make an objectively, irredeemably inferior character when you could just wait a while and regain access to a measurably better one via extended subclasses? That problem is now back. If you've spent your two special applications for the year and your latest character is dead, but the year is up in a couple of months and then you can once more get +3 to stats if you wait to create a new PC then, that situation is right back.

And most of all, this game already has a huge problem with stats. There's far too much variance between characters of similar types because one might have rolled AI/EX/VG/AA and another of the same race/class got saddled with EG/G/BA/P. Now we're facing an even greater gulf between characters because some will have significantly better stats because they happened to choose to spend their special application not on a cool, enriching role or a leadership position, but on being better at killing others (let's be honest, that's what stats really matter for).

It's fine that muls and half-giants are super powerful. They have significant, character-defining restrictions. It's fine that mages are stronger than mundanes, they're persecuted and can't just do what they want. It's fine that Lord Wangstrong has the political clout to ruin your life, because you know he can't run around training backstab in the 'rinth. It's fine that Private Nobody Outta Nowhere gets to begin with advanced in a slew of combat skills because anyone who spends a modest amount of time in the clan will reach that level through regular play. It's not fine that some random idiot gets to have +3 to strength without any caveats at all, no obligations, no expectations to use that very significant advantage to better the game in any way.

[Athapaxis]

Yeah this all seems cool to me.  Nice to have guidelines and know what's possible.  Skill boost is honestly game changing for me - takes the worst part of the game away and lets me enjoy the part that I love.  Also makes me more willing to take risks and allow the plots of others to have their way with me since while I am risking a Special App, I'm not risking hours and hours and hours of grinding that it took to be relevant.

I can see some people liking the stat thing.  I personally would never use it.  But I think its cool that its out there for those who might want to use it.

[dumbstruck]

Yeah this all seems cool to me.  Nice to have guidelines and know what's possible.  Skill boost is honestly game changing for me - takes the worst part of the game away and lets me enjoy the part that I love.  Also makes me more willing to take risks and allow the plots of others to have their way with me since while I am risking a Special App, I'm not risking hours and hours and hours of grinding that it took to be relevant.

I can see some people liking the stat thing.  I personally would never use it.  But I think its cool that its out there for those who might want to use it.

Yeah, I'm a big same on the stats thing. I like that it's there for people who prioritize stats. For me, all the other options are more appealing.

For the (various, not one individual) player(s) opposed to these stat boosts just because you 'can't catch up to it in game'... I don't understand that to be a problem. You also can't just 'earn' infravision but that's something that makes perfect sense in a world where there have been long-term underground populations and many documented mutations. You can't just 'spam' your way to a custom item or tattoo, either. Is the big deal that you (again collective you, not any individual person) are that worried about pvp that you want to take away someone's option to play not even The Mountain (call that a +5 str) but maybe The Hound? I think it's awesome that there is the possibility to play a true outlier in strength /or/ wisdom. You want to be the Zalanthan Einstein or Hawking, you can.

I just don't understand the specific aversion to someone burning 6 months worth of special app to get a +3 in something. I would be astonished if there wound up being more than 10 special apps in an entire OOC year that chose that option over other options. So I can't imagine a bunch of people running around that way. And if you're so concerned with a +3 at something that you will stay gone for 6 months just to get another one... honestly I don't think that level of concern with stats is healthy for the game. Especially when I'm not convinced it will be more than 1-2% of the characters in the game at a given time who would even have those. Which makes them... as they should be... an extreme outlier, statistically.

Further, I don't think it /should/ be subject to a racial cap. It's a special app, and you're trading for all your other possibilities in to play a statistical outlier on stats. You can do it 2x/year. That feels very reasonable to me.

[lostinspace]

Can we make use a special application to boost stats on an existing character?

If I roll a PC, make it 2-3 days in and like their story, can I think use a spec app to boost stats?

[FuSoYa]

Can we make use a special application to boost stats on an existing character?

If I roll a PC, make it 2-3 days in and like their story, can I think use a spec app to boost stats?

They said no to this in the Discord - special apps are only for new characters.

[kahuna]

Welcome to the 21st century where games hopefully don't expect players to want to put in 40 hours a week to play what they want.

[Big Red]

Listed as one of the new perks you can get from a special application is:

- add 3 points to any stat(s) of your choice, divided how you like, after final rolls are made (meaning, after you've rerolled and kept it, or reverted, or not rerolled).

I hate this so much that I can't express it without getting suspended.

I agree with this and hope that staff revisit and revise. Regular guy but +3 strength does not add fun for other players in the way that some of these other options do.

[Tailong]

Listed as one of the new perks you can get from a special application is:

- add 3 points to any stat(s) of your choice, divided how you like, after final rolls are made (meaning, after you've rerolled and kept it, or reverted, or not rerolled).

I hate this so much that I can't express it without getting suspended.

I agree with this and hope that staff revisit and revise. Regular guy but +3 strength does not add fun for other players in the way that some of these other options do.

So, someone spec apps and get +3 strength to raise it to AI strength, and I log in and get AI strength on the roll. Where is the advantage exactly? I used luck, they used one of two spec apps. You do realize that there are literally so many AI strength characters its not funny, yeah? AI everything, not just strength

[Dresan]

I like this, not because of the possibility for character creation but because it makes things more transparent and fair for everyone due to the limited nature of spec apps. No real concern with anything offered either, stat boosts is the least interesting option.

On a side note, the most irking part to read in the documention is that while rare staff do give out skills in game. Historically, this has stunk of favoritism and elitism. I think what skills and ability players can feasably gain in game should also be made more transparent and with some reasonable exceptions should probably also cost an spec. application when they occur.

Its understandable people want cool things to happen to their character but they never take in consideration the fairness of it all to the rest of the playerbase who are just playing regular average characters.

[AKawaiiBear]

It shouldn't just be this thing where your character gets to be 10% better, with absolutely no drawbacks, because you cashed in a special application. It both cheapens the idea of special applications and creates balance problems (i.e. characters with insanely godlike stats).

If you think about it, Advanced Start is far more than "10% better" with no drawbacks.  +3 to a stat is much, much 'weaker', IMO. Someone with a really great strength but crap skills vs someone with pretty good skills, that +3 strength really doesn't matter.  That said, maybe you don't like that we offer Advanced Starts, too, which.. fair point if that's the case.

Advanced starts felt like a way to provide incentive for people to play as mundanes, since it's only available for mundanes. You're being rewarded for picking a less desirable (but more needed for the game) role instead of using your spec app to roll a mage.
Stat boosts don't have that mundane only restriction. They're just objectively better than normal apps. This isn't case of being rewarded or given reason to play as a certain needed role the same way advanced starts are. I'd probably hate it less if the stat boosts were also limited to just mundanes.

[Dresan]

Stat boosts don't have that mundane only restriction.

This is just not as strong as you believe it is, not anymore at least. However, if you think its an enticing offer, roll the dwarf/magicker hybrid stat boosted special app and go have fun. 

[AKawaiiBear]

Stat boosts don't have that mundane only restriction.

This is just not as strong as you believe it is, not anymore at least. However, if you think its an enticing offer, roll the dwarf/magicker hybrid stat boosted special app and go have fun. 

It's the objectively better thing that I take issue with. Why does Johnny Coolkid with 7 rpp deserve a magicker with better stats than Newbie McspiderBait with 3 who used his special application to get a role +4 karma higher than what he has available?
You can't compare this with advanced starts, where the only requirement is you have 48 hours logged (1 karma) to try and make it less attractive to hop between alts to abuse spec apps. The only players who benefit from this change are old-guard karma havers, who need the help far less.

[Dresan]

Stuff.

I have some serious issues with karma, but this isn't it.

The low karma person who used their spec app to play a high karma class got the better deal.

[FuSoYa]

It shouldn't just be this thing where your character gets to be 10% better, with absolutely no drawbacks, because you cashed in a special application. It both cheapens the idea of special applications and creates balance problems (i.e. characters with insanely godlike stats).

If you think about it, Advanced Start is far more than "10% better" with no drawbacks.  +3 to a stat is much, much 'weaker', IMO. Someone with a really great strength but crap skills vs someone with pretty good skills, that +3 strength really doesn't matter.  That said, maybe you don't like that we offer Advanced Starts, too, which.. fair point if that's the case.

Advanced starts felt like a way to provide incentive for people to play as mundanes, since it's only available for mundanes. You're being rewarded for picking a less desirable (but more needed for the game) role instead of using your spec app to roll a mage.
Stat boosts don't have that mundane only restriction. They're just objectively better than normal apps. This isn't case of being rewarded or given reason to play as a certain needed role the same way advanced starts are. I'd probably hate it less if the stat boosts were also limited to just mundanes.

Just an aside - as someone with the ability to play a LOT of the high karma magicker roles, I don't find the mundanes less desirable at all.

A human mundane is BY far the most appealing thing for me to play.

Just another perspective.

[Tailong]

It shouldn't just be this thing where your character gets to be 10% better, with absolutely no drawbacks, because you cashed in a special application. It both cheapens the idea of special applications and creates balance problems (i.e. characters with insanely godlike stats).

If you think about it, Advanced Start is far more than "10% better" with no drawbacks.  +3 to a stat is much, much 'weaker', IMO. Someone with a really great strength but crap skills vs someone with pretty good skills, that +3 strength really doesn't matter.  That said, maybe you don't like that we offer Advanced Starts, too, which.. fair point if that's the case.

Advanced starts felt like a way to provide incentive for people to play as mundanes, since it's only available for mundanes. You're being rewarded for picking a less desirable (but more needed for the game) role instead of using your spec app to roll a mage.
Stat boosts don't have that mundane only restriction. They're just objectively better than normal apps. This isn't case of being rewarded or given reason to play as a certain needed role the same way advanced starts are. I'd probably hate it less if the stat boosts were also limited to just mundanes.

Just an aside - as someone with the ability to play a LOT of the high karma magicker roles, I don't find the mundanes less desirable at all.

A human mundane is BY far the most appealing thing for me to play.

Just another perspective.

This, I prefer mundanes, period, all day every day.

[AKawaiiBear]

Stuff.

I have some serious issues with karma, but this isn't it.

The low karma person who used their spec app to play a high karma class got the better deal.

Well, let's pretend for a second that +3 stats isn't a big deal, if it's so insignificant, why can't it be used alongside an app for a higher karma role, or even an advanced start for that matter?
I'm trying to think of reasons. The only one that comes to mind is extremely cynical.

[ABoredLion]

Another thing people may not be considering is that stat boosts cannot be applied to the subguild magickers. They could only be applied to standard classes, under this system.

I for one appreciate the transparency. It was a good thing to do. I wish I could have used a special application now, but at least I know for the next character.

[Dresan]

Another thing people may not be considering is that stat boosts cannot be applied to the subguild magickers.

Touched are magicker subguilds too, and though lack the power of the other magickal subguild (which do now require special apps to play) they do have mana and the cool ability to cantrip.

That said, at this point, I would trade all but one karma for a cheap forage tool. 

[Seeker]

Thank you.  I like clear rules and expectatuons.

Even if someone doesn't agree with any of the particulars having all the cards on the table for all to see is great.

[dumbstruck]

Stuff.

I have some serious issues with karma, but this isn't it.

The low karma person who used their spec app to play a high karma class got the better deal.

Well, let's pretend for a second that +3 stats isn't a big deal, if it's so insignificant, why can't it be used alongside an app for a higher karma role, or even an advanced start for that matter?
I'm trying to think of reasons. The only one that comes to mind is extremely cynical.

Compare your cynicism with mine. I cynically believe it's because staff already expected a significant minority of people to be angry about stat boosts and didn't want to increase the shitstorm by letting them pair it with other things.

[AKawaiiBear]

Stuff.

I have some serious issues with karma, but this isn't it.

The low karma person who used their spec app to play a high karma class got the better deal.

Well, let's pretend for a second that +3 stats isn't a big deal, if it's so insignificant, why can't it be used alongside an app for a higher karma role, or even an advanced start for that matter?
I'm trying to think of reasons. The only one that comes to mind is extremely cynical.

Compare your cynicism with mine. I cynically believe it's because staff already expected a significant minority of people to be angry about stat boosts and didn't want to increase the shitstorm by letting them pair it with other things.

Why would anyone be angry about players being able to spec app +4 above their current karma and get a stat boost for it vs only people who already have the karma being able to get a stat boost?

You can make a valid argument with magickal sub guilds being true current karma only since they're crazy powerful in ways full mages can't be. But this isn't that.

[Usiku]

Honestly, we didn't expect anyone to be upset about it. We included it because, occasionally, people would send in spec apps wanting to ensure a decent specific stat for a particular concept idea that revolved around it. We never approved these requests in the past because it just 'wasn't something we do'. However, we wanted to accommodate these specific creative concepts, so we recently added it as a spec app option because an important part of our culture shift is to say yes as much as we can. While this type of spec app request is very rare, it might be just what someone needs for their concept.

It's disheartening to see spec apps viewed through the lens of competitiveness and measuring one PC's strength against another's or measuring one spec app option's strength against another's. Aside from Advanced Starts, spec apps are there to support concepts that need a bit of tweaking because they don't quite fit with our out-of-the-box options. That's pretty much always how they are used by players. We don't really get requests for extra strength to overpower others; we get requests like ensuring agility for a PC who wants to sneak sweets into people's pockets using sleight of hand.

[Dresan]

It's disheartening to see spec apps viewed through the lens of competitiveness and measuring one PC's strength against another's or measuring one spec app option's strength against another's.

I respect what you are trying to say here but just to add a small thought. While a lot of people enjoy social roles I think the gameplay, code and rules supports a healthy level of competitveness between players. That said, to the merit of the game 'power' isn't always measured by hard you smack with your weapon. However, for those that do pursue melee badassery whether though banditry, adventuring, dueling, sparring or arena, the game ICly both reward and respects their achievements. This is good fun.

To responsed to a few other concerns, i believe advance starts and +karma spec apps are very powerful options on their own. It doesn't make sense combining them for the same reason it no longer makes sense to combine magick class and mul race or why magick subguild have addition coded restrictions on them.

You can combined coded advantages to one flavor start, if you could do this with coded advanges or +karma options they would have to be nerfed. This game balances itself in unique ways but it does attempt to have some balance.

[roughneck]

More options! Neat.

If you don't like, don't do it.

I can feel the sewer-dweller apps coming in hot!

[Jarvis]

I think its neat

[helix]

I don't think the stat bump is a big deal. There's no difference in 'not being able to catch up' between someone that gets BA/VG/A/A and someone that gets EX/VA/A/A on a normal roll. It's not like every character you roll is going to have AI Strength or Agility (in my ~20 or so characters, I've never had AI anything), so you're always going to be 'behind' someone whether they use the special application or not.

But I've certainly rolled characters that got bad stats for what my intended concept was and, if that concept was important enough for me, I'd use one of these to support it.

I can imagine spending a spec-app on something like infravision, or another such power. That's just an interesting character to play. Mostly though, I'm just glad for the transparency on what kinds of things you'd be willing to consider and how staff views the 'trade' of powers and/or skills in the game.

[Delusion]

Now that the intention has been described in more detail and pretty much everyone is saying that nobody would use it to have a human with near-mul-like strength anyway, a restriction could be put in where stats can't be increased where they are already at exceptional or higher. Maybe even just a limit on human, dwarf and half-elf stats. I realize that elf strength starts from a much lower base.

[CirclelessBard]

Healthy debate is welcomed, but some rule 1 breaks have caused the conversation to run its course. Some rule breaking posts have been moved.