Unexpected Rolecall Closures

[Windstorm]

Let me begin by saying in no uncertain terms that I disagree, strongly, with the staff's decision to close role apps before the stated date in which they would have otherwise closed them. To be clear, I do mean to state this cordially but still make a point.

If we set a date for role calls we should stick to that date. Other more qualified or interested individuals may actually have been taking their time with it to word themselves right, were busy with work, family obligations, been out of town, or any other number of reasons. These people have effectively been shut out from applying without prior notice. Instead, favor has been bestowed to people who mashed the button the moment it appeared.

If staff sets a date on this sort of thing (set to June 7th-10th here: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,60419.0.html), they should stick to it.

For clarity and to head off predictable replies, I personally had no interest in submitting a templar application. I still think it's a poor decision.

[Riev]

Even with what little information I have about the process (which is next to none), I am going to agree with Windstorm.

Optics-wise, there would have been no difference if you kept the calls open to the same time but chose the people you already chose. The benefit being that you would have a collection of potentially really good apps that you can maybe pull from when all your templars die to my pc other people's PK ways.

Its a bit painful from a good-will standpoint, and from the direction that you want players to view staff in a better light, that you have not opened the game up but have already broken a promise.


That said? Open the game!

[Malken]

We had this discussion in the Discord and most agreed with you.

[dumbstruck]

Perhaps the solution is not to close the role that was overapplied but to add incentives to other roles that are lacking applications. It is much easier to give someone something than to take it away, and engenders a lot less hurt feelings and confusion.

[cnemus]

I personally don't want to submit an app for a role that has one of these 'first right of refusal' submissions, but I already have put in my app so now...

I hope they will continue to mark any role that gets one of these first rights apps.

If I know I'm not eligible for any of the roles I submit for, I can get to work on a character I can actually get to play instead of holding out hope for something I won't get.

Probably should have done the first rights in a first round, but too late now. Maybe next time.

[ABoredLion]

As I understand it, some sponsored roles or leadership positions from Season Zero were given a nod and an apology in the form of a token advantage on Season One for roles that would pop due to having just landed their roles before everything was shut down. It seems likely that a lot of these people would have applied for these roles, and in particular that one. If the number of templars staff elected to pick for this starting point in the season is matched or overcome by their IOUs, and they wish to be honest and transparent while upholding their word to those people they feel apologetic toward -- something many have championed for over the years -- this is in my mind a perfectly reasonable response.

Those people who were overqualified or coming up with the perfect application, or thinking on it, are in no way prevented from ever playing this imaginary more "ideal" roleplaying idea that would have come up a week later, and it could just as well be argued that staff closing this early saved them the many hours potentially agonizing over how exactly they will arrange this in their head in a short deadline to get the role. Instead, that time can now be spent thinking about other possibilities.

Just my thoughts on this all. Staff made the right call this time; I prefer the transparency and saved effort.

[Patuk]

As I understand it, some sponsored roles or leadership positions from Season Zero were given a nod and an apology in the form of a token advantage on Season One for roles that would pop due to having just landed their roles before everything was shut down. It seems likely that a lot of these people would have applied for these roles, and in particular that one.

If true, the good option is to just say that. And not, in fact, close these roles to people who may want a day or two to craft an application.

[cnemus]

If true, the good option is to just say that.

The first paragraph of the announcement about the role closure:

"Due to an overwhelming number of applications for this role, combined with multiple applications from players who had been given the first right of refusal for leadership positions (because they lost their roles prematurely at the close of Season Zero), we have decided to close applications for the Templar role earlier than expected."
                                            -Usiku

[Patuk]

If true, the good option is to just say that.

The first paragraph of the announcement about the role closure:

"Due to an overwhelming number of applications for this role, combined with multiple applications from players who had been given the first right of refusal for leadership positions (because they lost their roles prematurely at the close of Season Zero), we have decided to close applications for the Templar role earlier than expected."
                                            -Usiku

Ooh, I missed that. Thanks.

That does seem fairer. Not great to pull the rug, sure, but much fairer.

[Windstorm]

If I know I'm not eligible for any of the roles I submit for, I can get to work on a character I can actually get to play instead of holding out hope for something I won't get.

Probably should have done the first rights in a first round, but too late now. Maybe next time.

I agree with this! Stuff happens, but I'd feel pretty bad if I'd had my heart set on a role like this.

I also agree with dumbstruck's post, and my previous advocation for the decentralization of templarate power definitely stands doubly in the light of all this. Everyone always seems to want a templar role and ingame they're what I'd call a bit much, even having played with plenty of what I'd call really fantastic ones in recent memory.

Edit: left out a key word that totally changed the meaning of my last sentence, lol :p

[roughneck]

Oh my God.

They saved folks the potential work of submitting something that wouldn't be looked at. It was just simple courtesy.

[Windstorm]

My understanding is that it was quite the opposite.

In short, the general public possibly never had a chance to app for this at all.

That's not to drag the staff, but hopefully we can learn from this.

[Roon]

If I was going to apply for this role, I would be very disappointed to discover that the window was closed after one day when it was announced that we had a week to submit applications. That's really inconsiderate. In closing the door this early, not only will a number of players have been cheated out of the opportunity to apply, you've also ensured that whoever does get to be a templar will be the ones who spent the least amount of time on their applications. Anyone who meant to take more than a day to work on their app was excluded. I'm sure there are people who were able to write up a perfectly fine application in a day (or start early, since some parts could have been written without the details posted in the role call), but it's still not exactly a great selection practice.

Most of all, I wonder: were there enough people with first right of refusal to stake a claim to every templar slot (presumably Season One won't have just one lonesome templar)? And if that's the case, why post the role call in the first place if it was never really going to be available to anyone but those with the premium battle pass?
 

[ABoredLion]

That's not to drag the staff, but hopefully we can learn from this.

I'm not sure honestly what the learning experience is. Genuinely.

What, staff just sit quiet and waste peoples' time if they've made a decision already? I'd rather they just say it personally. My time's valuable. Thank you staff, for not wasting any of it beyond the point where you knew my application wasn't going to be the one. They're keeping their word and paying a perceived debt to members of the playerbase. That's big wins across the board. There will be future templars. Whatever you write up for an application doesn't just disappear because the role got filled. It's there for you to pull one day out of your google document or whatever!

Disappointment you didn't get the role is reasonable, but learning you didn't get it earlier than otherwise just means stress saved.

[zealus]

So a theory I have, and this is unsupported by any statement by staff, so take it with a grain of salt:

What if, regardless of why, they had picked two templars.

Everyone is allowed three role picks.
Now people who make an app, have Templar in 1, 2, or 3rd place.
However, they also had another role in 4rth.
So now that role has no apps.

Maybe staff was hoping to prevent that?
But maybe some staffer could shed light on the process.
Because it's not unheard of for Templar apps to close within the day, even when there are no people at the top of the queue.

[Windstorm]

What, staff just sit quiet and waste peoples' time if they've made a decision already?

Well, it shouldn't be labelled with a date, but with a "first come, first served" type notice if that's how it's intended to be taken, rrriiiight? When you put a date on it, people will think they have until that date.

I didn't even know about the IOUs until this thread, so it does make more sense to me now, but cnemus' thought that they should just have a "first round" of rolecalls to account for those first seems like the best way to've handled it. Again, I'm looking for ways to improve what seems like a confusing and possibly disappointing process for some.

It seems possible that a bulk of those roles might not even be available if those players want to app for them and the rest of the playerbase could have been wasting their time from the outset. That's true even now, of other roles.

[Usiku]

Honestly, I think whichever way we had done it, would have ruffled some feathers. We didn't know exactly who was going to apply for what roles. We certainly didn't want to run what would have seemed like a 'private and exclusive' pre role call role call or put those players under pressure. We didn't intend for it to be a first come first serve process, we just had a lot more interest for the Templar roles than we had expected and we didn't want to waste anyones time, limited applications or leave them hanging when we could just close it. There will be more Templars. All the other roles will be open until the 7th as the app numbers are a lot more reasonable.

[Roon]

I do think it could have been made clear in the role call itself that some players were being given right of first refusal. It also seems that it should have been possible to query those players about their interests beforehand in order to prepare for it. There would only have been a few such players, right? Not dozens.

[Halaster]

Yep, it was a slight fumble on our part.  We're sorry about that.  We can chalk it up to the fact we've never been in this situation before, of relaunching the game.  And we're a little (happily) surprised by amount of interest coming our way, or at least I am.

Mistakes made, lessons learned, we'll do better next time.

[Lizzie]

Also for people upset or annoyed because they had their hearts set on a role...

you have no way of knowing if your application would've been approved.  Imagine your disappointment if you submitted the app, waited for another week, getting your hopes up, being absolutely SURE your app was one they would pick, spending that week dreaming up all kinds of scenarios your character could get involved in, coming up with new quirks for the character to round out their personality traits...

and then getting the "We've decided to go with someone else" note.

I've had that happen countless times and it stings every time. It's much less stressful to know that the staff has already decided, even though it's a week early. I can then save that app, and all that stress, and imagining scenarios, and anticipation, until the next round of role calls.

[Riev]

Yep, it was a slight fumble on our part.  We're sorry about that.  We can chalk it up to the fact we've never been in this situation before, of relaunching the game.  And we're a little (happily) surprised by amount of interest coming our way, or at least I am.

Mistakes made, lessons learned, we'll do better next time.

As a note:

Previous staff administrations would NEVER. EVER. Have admitted that maybe something was handled incorrectly.

Thank you, from a player who doesn't really matter, for just admitting it was a flub and moving on rather than trying to justify and seem always correct.

[Windstorm]

Overall, including this response, really does look like progress to me, and I'm happy to see it!

[Seeker]

Yep, it was a slight fumble on our part.  We're sorry about that.  We can chalk it up to the fact we've never been in this situation before, of relaunching the game.  And we're a little (happily) surprised by amount of interest coming our way, or at least I am.

Mistakes made, lessons learned, we'll do better next time.

This post makes me happy.  The issue behind it, not great.  This post?  Pretty great.

[Kavrick]

I think people are being a little too anal about an honestly fairly common occurrence. Rather than being mad that maybe you didn't get to play the role you wanted, you should be excited that seasons has had so much attention that they had to close some roles early. Staff are human too, mistakes like under or over-estimating things like how many apps will come in is just something that happens.

Yeah it sucks, but life goes on, there are still a bunch of other roles open, I feel as if the majority of players wont even get a chance to play a templar in the grand scheme of things anyway, it's the nature of the role. There'll be chances in the future, and the time between now and the next role-call is time to brush up your chops and give staff a good case for considering you for it.

[Riev]

Its not fair to make the assumption that it is people mad they didn't get the role they wanted.

I have not submitted for karma review. I have no special app or sponsored role in the queue.

However, I just think it wouldn't have hurt anyone to keep the roll call dates even though the roles were already filled. I guess if THAT information got out, people would be upset, but I'd think of it like a job opening. The remaining applications can be kept "on file" in case one of the First Refusals actually can't do it.


But again, saying its mad I couldn't play a templar is inaccurate.

[Kavrick]

Its not fair to make the assumption that it is people mad they didn't get the role they wanted.

Sorry, I probably worded that poorly, I didn't quite mean it like that. I probably shouldn't have used the word 'mad', and that's my bad. I more meant in the grand scheme of things, this sort of thing is a very common occurrence, and that even though it completely is a valid piece of criticism, I think it's not that big of a deal.

[Riev]

In the grand scheme? Not a huge deal.

For many of us who have had staff take the "corruption and betrayal" tagline to the real world? I can absolutely see how it feels like the rug being pulled out from under your feet.

It is not a world-ending scenario, but some people may absolutely have felt 'betrayed' when told they had a week to come up with an idea. World will keep spinning, it just sucks, and sometimes its okay to say something sucks without saying HALASTER SUCKS.

I mean. He does. I've never agreed with him once, and he can't prove I ever did... but I feel this thread was more to express dissatisfaction and not people grabbing pitchforks.