Increasing the Conflict

[A Little Birdy]

What Arm really needs right now is an opposition.  I feel that this whole "Behind the Scenes" stuff has been way overpromoted.  Subtlety and finesse are good things, sure, but Arm really needs some events which all and sundry can be aware of.  It also needs a higher level of strife and struggling, I think.  When I read a novel the best points are when the "heroes" reach a nearly impossible problem to solve.  How the hell are they going to get through this, I ask myself.  And just when they overcome their hurtle, a dozen more are waiting on the other side, facing them.

Tuluk, for example, is a prime choice for having troubles, I should think.  Do they really have time to erect statues, delve into the art world, and so quickly return to glory?  What I think would be fantastic is for a separatist group to arise, but this cannot be done by one single character, nor a group of PCs.  It takes a large cult following.  During the Rebellion one of the largest supporters to the cause were the Blackmoon, and though they were eager to liberate the Northlands, they weren't all that happy to see another structured government take its place (we're talking about raiders and bandits after all, thieves).  It's just an example.  The worker shortage could also be developed.  Ever play a Civilization game?  Building a city means you are always struggling to find a balance between unemployment and worker shortages.  You don't want to start grinning once you've reached 1% unemployment because you're not that far away from hitting 0%, at which point you can very quickly run out of workers.  If you don't have enough people to employ at the local fire department, suddenly fire erupts, sometimes so much it threatens to engulf your entire city.  The same burdens can arise from high unemployment.  Either way, it's a lot more fun when difficuly is faced in every direction you take.

So what about opening another Rebellion of sorts (I really like the idea of a group of Tuluki separatists), or a Liberation Army in Allanak, or a Blackmoon revival?  I think minimizing the number of clans is a good thing, but which clans remain active and which close are of vital importance.  The game needs a very clear opposition.  What character right now, on a day-to-day basis (nevermind the occasional RPT where the real fun stuff happens) gets to do anything other than sparring or taverning (we'll say MUDsexing falls into the second category )  The pleasures of scheming can only go so far.  How much conflict can you really find between competing merchant houses and nobles?  Whatever amount that may be, it's nothing compared to open war.  I'm very much in favor of opening an opposition clan, this can allow both sides of the opposition (Allanak and the Librators, for example) to strive towards very concrete goals and work on tasks other than casual scheming and gossiping in the tavern or just plain sparring.

So who's with me?  Vive la revolution!

[mansa]

I think the number one reason people don't increase the conflict, is because of the criminal code.  People are afraid of losing their own precious characters.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I think the number one reason people don't increase the conflict, is because of the criminal code.  People are afraid of losing their own precious characters.

You make it sound like unacceptable behavior.  The real problem is the criminal code itself, which is and always has been the biggest threat and smotherer of conflict.

[A Little Birdy]

I agree about the crim code thing but... I hope this thread doesn't become a debate on whether or not the criminal code is flawed  :lol:.  I think if you have a clan based on opposing another clan, then that's all you need.  During the Rebellion, for example, most of our fighting was on or around the North Road, where there isn't a criminal code to interfere with your skirmishes in the first place.  I guess what I'm saying is, an unforgiving, very strict criminal code doesn't necessarily have to interfere with your plans for opposition.  Even if you can get past the crim code, a few crooks running around causing mayhem isn't going to help much, nor is it particularly long lived.  There is nothing more fun than operating in a clan, an entire organization, who exists for the sole purpose of opposing another group (openly oppose -- I don't mean how noble houses privately scheme against one another, I'm talking straight out, in your face, open war.  Some of us like the subtle thing, others don't.  It'd be nice to have a choice between one or the other.)

[EvilRoeSlade]

I hope I'm not being too IC when I say that something like this is in the process of being sprung up IG.

I can't really tell you anything, too sensitive.  But you could always E-mail the staff saying that you want to get in on the action, no?

[wizturbo]

If the code was less harsh, tons of people would die in bar fights or by random thugs in the streets.  In the 'rinth and some other places in the world, sure thats something one can expect.  But inside the main cities, which are protected by the Templarate, only a very skilled assassin should have a chance at killing someone and escaping.  Unless of coarse, an "arrangement" were made by chance with a member of the Templarate to look the other way, or something of that nature.  

Conflict in this world, appears to me, to be very behind the scenes because open war is so costly to both sides.  In my short few weeks playing this game I've seen plenty of conflicts, and plenty of friends have died.  I wouldn't call this game anything but harsh and filled with conflict.  But open fighting in the city streets, isn't realistic.

To me the -only- time criminal code should be relaxed is if someone who has -above the law- privledges chooses to attack someone.  A Lord orders his men to kill someone, or a Templar makes an arrangement to look the other way by bribe or something of that nature.  You want to kill someone in the city, you should need more than just a dagger by your side.  Outside the city, things are much easier, and thats a risk people take by leaving.

[sacac]

if I'm playing a role where I have an IC reason to break the unwritten laws.. then I'll break it when I ever I feel it's needed.. but I'm not going to do the same if I was someone that has no reason IC too.

[Anonymous]

What would be sweet is if the crim-code in the north was changed so that anyone trying to attack a magicker could inside the city without getting crim-flagged even if they pulled hte first punch.

Like, the gamecode would know someones a magicker and not do anything about it, but if someone said "hey that's a magicker kill him!" and people started wailing on the guy the soldiers would join in instad of arresting whoever takes their blade out to kill the magicker.

Problem is I think that would give away if someone's just accusing someone who isn't a magikcer just to get them in trouble, so maybe it won't work after all. I don't know I just wish there was something like that. It's kinda stupid to get arrested for killing like someone wearing a gem or someone walking into town with a ball of light glowing over their heads and know that if you attack them your the one who goes to jail for it.

Maybe if templars could suspend crim-flag individually, so like if I take a lisence out to kill some guy, the templar can code me so I don't get arrested when I attack that one guy. But I'd still get arrested if I attacked anyone else. That would be great!

[EvilRoeSlade]

Right now, the only real criminal niche is thief, and professional killer.  There should be more.  I see the city-states as being places where muggings, rapings, and murder occur without fail on a daily basis.  People who aren't highly qualified commit crimes in the shadows, and get away with it.  Most of the law enforcement is up to the militia, who are no more effective than any other law enforcement in an ancient culture.  This being so, I want to see the mugger who makes you think twice about leaving the city at night.  I want to see the spice dealer who tries to pressure you into buying a pinch.

That being said, I have no real solution to propose.  The code favors assassins who are attacking with the intent to kill, while at the same time completely and utterly crushing the guy with no training and nothing to lose.  It could be made easier to commit crimes at night-time, which would be completely realistic but might not have the desired effect.  I don't think conflict should go in the direction of open fighting in the streets, which would only occur anyway if there was no crime code.  I don't have any solutions to offer, I just want to identify a problem.

[Kalden]

Has there been a change in soldiers to tone them down from insta-killing you? Seems like there has been, as my burglar survived a guard for a little while easily. If the guard's are made possible to kill, and maybe they already are, then that would help. Or maybe I just got lucky and didn't run into a half-giant, heh.

But I definitely think the crim code should be adjusted some for conflict. People have always wanted the ability to have bar fights, but there's no code that allows a realistic barfight, especially in the slummier areas. As often as not, I can see the guards ignoring two people who are going at it with fists. They don't want to get mixed up in the trouble - let those guys settle their problems themselves.

Also, making the crim code more of a chance when attacking people would help, and making night lower that chance significantly would help.

[Delirium]

Brawl code in place in the Gaj would rock.

Once you use weapons, it's all over, though.

[LoD]

I believe one of the reasons why conflict has begun to wane is that the outdoors was effectively taken away as a viable location for PC-PC conflict to take place on a regular basis.

I know the debate comes up every now and again, complaining that the outside world isn't harsh enough, and then that it is too harsh, and then that it isn't harsh enough, etc...

I believe that the civilization centers, roads, and the like should be relatively clear of mean nasty bad critters as a result of all the VNPC travel, guards, caravans, and traffic.  I would rather see smaller game around the cities (perhaps 8-10 leagues) and roads - with medium game for the next 10-20 leagues, and reserving the really dangerous critters for the further reaches and remote areas of the game.  Where PC traffic is going to be extremely low.

Yes, I understand that this may be speaking of several miles around the city, but it just severely limits the travel of PC's from town to town.  It's not THAT hard, but it's not THAT easy either.  And it's enough of a reason to not travel unless you have some really hard coded PC's able to back you up along the way.

I am a much bigger fan of PC vs. PC interaction and danger outside of the city.  I feel as if the NPC threat has long since outweighed and replaced the PC threat outside of the cities, and I think this is really a shame and brought down the level of external conflict in the game.  The people resorted to playing more city-bound characters, which are then more closely guarded by the criminal codes discussed previously.

I would much rather see the large gith nations, the huge creatures, and the extremely dangerous critters to be located far away from the cities, roadways, and areas of heavy traffic to allow for this sort of confrontation without worry that it only end in the death at the hands of NPC's.  If these creatures really did exist so close to these heavily traveled roadways, I feel as if the PC/NPC/VNPC civilizations would've moved to push them back long, long ago.  And if they haven't - then why NOT do it.  I don't particularly find a story very interesting when you have to be MORE worried about the NPC's than the PC's along the roads and around the perimeter of a civilization.

I think that if you drew circles around the heavily trafficked areas, then placed rings of small game, medium game, and the really dangerous game being farthest away, you will see more travel, more interaction, and more conflict being generated simply from the ability to travel.

LoD

[Blackmoon]

Why not just make a time delay for the crim code? Instead of instantly making you wanted...your wanted in 5 RL minutes instead. Be a little more realistic, no? :wink:

I'm sure in any bar fight, the nearby militia would be on to it pretty soon, either through the VNPC population or through fellow miltia. Its just a matter of how much the crime/fight will draw attention to itself, which would determine how much delay there is.

[Blackmoon]

Hmm, that last post sounded more like a code discussion.  :roll:

[Cuusardo]

There is plenty of conflict in Tuluk.  You just have to find it.  

[Angela Christine]

If you want to see the effect of a reduced crim-code, just try playing  in the 'rinth.  I've done it, when  I come across another PC chances are about 10-1 that they will look at you (probably a quick eq buffness check) and then attack or backstab without a word.  Sometimes they don't look first, maybe they mistook me for an NPC or used peek instead.  

Regardless, the result of a weak crim code is random violence.  The streets run red with blood.  People attack others without provokation or any particular goal, other than to test out their skills and perhaps get some lousy 'rinther loot.  If the attacker finds he is outmatched, he simply flees and runs off to find weaker prey.  It is nearly indistinguishable from a H&S MUD, except that perma-death keeps the prey from being immidiately resurected and gathering a few friends to hunt down her killer, which really only encourages random, meaningless PKs.

I say that the 'rinth has a weak crim code, rather than no crim code at all, because fighting in the 'rinth does seem to encourage other NPCs to become aggressive.  They will join in some fights, but sometimes their decisions on which side of the fight to join seems a little ... eccentric.  But rinthi NPC behavior is something you should discover for yourself, so I won't say any more about that.

The excessively effective crim code in lawful areas does get the point accross that this is not a H&S MUD where towns are just another hunting ground.  You attack a random fido, get the "you are wanted" message, and moments later a soldier comes by and drags you off to jail.  This discourages random, meaningless attacks with little or no RP value.  It also discourages well roleplayed criminal behavior, but to me that seems a fair trade to be free of unrealistic totally random PKs.  It isn't impossible to play a criminal that actually commits crimes, it is just difficult.  If you aren't clever and careful, then you get caught.

The crim code doesn't discourage conflict, unless your idea of conflict consists solely of physical violence.  Last time I was in the 'byn my character was in steady conflict with another Trooper, but it never got to the point where we tried to kill eachother.  (Unless you consider pausing before typing "assist <buddy>" when someone gets attacked to be indirectly trying to get them killed.)  Conflict where you try to undermine the other person's credibility and social power is conflict.  In many ways it is more fun and more satisfying than a simple physical confrontation, because it can go on for weeks or months, rather than the mere few minutes that a stand up fight would last.

Maybe it is a gender thing.  Back in elementary school while the boys were beating eachother silly the girls would engage in a slower campaign of emotional terrorism designed to destroy the target's populatrity and self-esteem, so perhaps that still influences what is considered good conflict.  The former is immediatly satisfying because you can see the bloody nose or black eye, while emotional dammage rarely has visible symptoms, so unless you get the target to cry in public you can't be sure you have been effective.  On the other hand the black eye will be gone in a week, while the emotional dammage may last a lifetime, and if especially effective even drive the target to suicide.  Killing without bruising your knuckles, now that's satifying.

AC

[Cuusardo]

Out of curiosity, does the policing force of the city arrest NPCs that attack people?

[Stroker]

Killing without bruising your knuckles, now that's satifying.

A good AK-47 can do the same. It can both, end the life and inflict bodily harm. As far as emotional harm? Well you can first kidnap them (by knowing them unconscious with your very well own AK), put them into a quiet room and molest them for days on end.

To order your very own AK-47 call 1800-SHOOT ME.

Dirr the Propogater of Communism.

[Sandlord]

I think during the nighttime the crim code should get weaker. Like during the day if you steal or attack someone you are automatically wanted. At night if you steal or attack you should have a 1 in five chance of not getting wanted. Therefore the citys would still be a very safe place but at night the misfits of the city might muster up some balls and do something. Just like in our world. Muggings and drivebys usually happen when its harder to see and less people are out.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

AC wrote:

If you want to see the effect of a reduced crim-code, just try playing in the 'rinth. I've done it, when I come across another PC chances are about 10-1 that they will look at you (probably a quick eq buffness check) and then attack or backstab without a word. Sometimes they don't look first, maybe they mistook me for an NPC or used peek instead.

Are you sure? I've played in 'rinth myself, and though I didn't see many PCs, the ones I did meet were willing to interact. We'd talk and EMOTE and have a grand old time... The only time I've ever been (seemingly) senselessly attacked in the 'rinth was by NPCs, and even they shout random crap as they're dicing you. Maybe you had a bad experience?

I'd like to make it clear that I'm not saying the crim code should be turned down, no. I just wanted to bring up the 'rinth because I think it would be a great place for open, physical conflict. As would the wastes. I think it'd be great to see warring gangs or warring tribal groups. All we need is a bigger playbase. Doesn't it seem like all the cool stuff requires a larger playerbase? *sigh*

AC wrote:

In many ways it is more fun and more satisfying than a simple physical confrontation, because it can go on for weeks or months, rather than the mere few minutes that a stand up fight would last.

To this I must say that not all physical fights last minutes. Most wars last years. Gang violence is absolutely endless. A vendetta between tribal groups will exist until something completely changes one or both cultures. I think this is the sort of conflict is what the original poster was talking about, and I agree, I would like to see more 'grand-scale' external conflict in the game. I do agree with you, however, that more random killings in the Gaj or in the street is not particularly important, AC.

[Angela Christine]

Are you sure? I've played in 'rinth myself, and though I didn't see many PCs, the ones I did meet were willing to interact. We'd talk and EMOTE and have a grand old time... The only time I've ever been (seemingly) senselessly attacked in the 'rinth was by NPCs, and even they shout random crap as they're dicing you. Maybe you had a bad experience?

Several bad experiences.  I finally gave up on the 'rinth and haven't been up there in about a year, so it might be better now.  And you know they are PCs if they look at you, NPCs aren't big on looking.

Anyway, I think less conflict could lead to more conflict.  Specifically, I think a peace treaty or some sort of official diplomatic relations between the cities could lead to more conflict.  There is no reason for most wealthy people to throw money at north-south conflict.  The merchant houses won't, they trade north and south.  The noble houses won't, because if you've never met a Tennishi you have no specific reason to want one assassinated or harrased.  That leaves disgruntled commoners to carry the torch, and most of them just don't have what it takes.

AC

[Kalden]

After rethinking and reading your post, I have to heartily agree with AC. I recently tried playing in an "RP" MOO with no real law enforcement. This is a game you have to write a background and good character concept to get in. First, some guy tried to kill me when I had my newbie protection, no emotes, no nothing, and called me a newb OOCly when he couldn't. Two hours after my newb protection wore off, I was killed. Again, no emotes, only the RP excuse that the person was after my newb stuff and little cash. It's not difficult for "thugging" warriors and oldbies to take over and start PKing for weak excuses.

As it is, I've been mugged in the alleys of Allanak before, and it's not that much fun. A few seconds of thrill, but not much conflict, and I'd rather more social conflict was developed. You want someone killed, either lay for them outside the city(or in alleys) or hire an assassin.

What I'd really like, though this is off-topic, is a bind command so that you can kidnap people, take prisoners, interrogate, ect, ect. That would lead to some interesting RP. I mean bind as in tying people up with a rope or a chain.

[I Have Steel]

Why not use the VNPC presence to help your character get over as an evil evil person?

Hide, then emote coming out of the shadows to drag your VNPC elf victim back into the alley, before slitting their throat.

Stand against a building quietly, before slipping into the crowd and coming out to force an F-Me VNPC into the alley.

Wanna jerk a VNPC into the alley and beat him or her senseless before storing away their virtual purse that could feed you during logged out time, or perhaps put on a good show of roleplay and get imm rewarded with a few sid, then go for it. That's a time where you can be in control, and make your character look mean and nasty to more than just the PC population.

Perhaps even rp getting caught from time to time and wish up to be crimmed, or just flee through the shadows and get away, while being pretend crimmed.

[Rindan]

I imagine a lot of people might violently disagree with me, but I personally would like to see more low level and low/no fantasy conflict.  Don't get me wrong, I like the occasional spawn of darkness and what not assaulting the city, but to me those things are just there for the awe factor.  I like awe, but that cool city invasion lasts for me 12 hours and then it is over.  There might be repercussions to it, but it doesn't alter the type of conflicts my character has.  Most of the time for most characters massive plots are things they simply can not put their hand into on a regular basis.  They can be cannon fodder when the chance arises (which is always fun), but it isn't a source of steady RP.  You can't play cannon fodder every day.  It is something happens then is over.

More mundane conflict on the other hand offers the chance for constant RP and interaction, but I think the general trend has been away from this.  If you look at the clan roster, the majority of clans are merchant houses, noble houses, and other massive and powerful organizations.  These are organizations that wield terrible power, and when they fight the results are not pretty.  In fact, the results are so devastating that they generally never openly fight.  They have their political bickering, backstabbing, assassinations, frame ups, and such, but as a general rule rarely openly fight.  When they do fight openly, it general it is one single instance where one side overwhelms the other.  While this is fine, these events are defined by massive overarching events that only people of power and drive ever realistically will even touch.

If you bring conflict down lower, suddenly the conflict is a little more present and, a little more day to day, and far more able to sustain itself.  Imagine if you took the player numbers we have to day in clans, but instead of stuffing them into noble houses, merchant houses, and other such large organizations, were instead put into clans that were smaller and had less power.  Instead of joining a merchant house, you join smuggling ring or a tavern.  Instead of joining a noble house, you join a large extended commoner family (think of the opening scene Godfather, or the family in My Big Fat Greek Wedding).  Instead of joining Kurac, you join a small band of mercenaries and spice dealers.

Now conflict revolves around small scale conflicts.  Two mercenary groups meet in the desert trying to accomplish the same mission and come close to blows.  Within a commoner family someone's daughter is screwing an elf and family members need to stop her either by threatening/beating up the elf or talking her out of it.  A commoner takes out more money then she can afford to pay back from a local group of thugs and now needs to find money to pay it back.  A turf war breaks out between two gangs.  Two commoner families feud over some offense.  Spice smugglers need to go silence an informant.  A commoner family is mortified to learn one of their children is a drovian.

These are all mundane things.  The fate of the world does not rest in the balance.  The noble houses don't give a shit.  The Templars likely are not going to put much effort in investigating any of this.  No powers that be are going to bother poking their head in because they simply don't care.  However, for the people involved in these lower level conflicts the implications are serious.  The Templars might not care that one commoner family is warring with another so long as they keep the blood from being seen in public, but people in those families sure as hell care.  A woman who owes money to criminal organization might not attract the attention of a merchant house, but as far as she is concerned she is living life on the edge.  The best thing about these conflicts is that they naturally more persistent then over arching conflicts for most people.  The common soldier can't do much about the war once the war is over.  Certainly, a driven individual might make a daring raid into enemy territory, but such things are far and few in-between.  However, warring gangs might always have their eye open for the chance to strike a blow.  At any time they can decide to grab their thief and try and break into the opposing gang's hideout and do some damage.  The conflict is less meaningful to the world in general, but far more meaningful to the people participating.

Granted, this is all just my personal wet dream and I don't really expect to see all of the noble houses closed tomorrow.  That said, I think it wouldn't be bad to see the MUD move a little more towards lower level self sustaining conflicts.  No one is going to disband House Tor over night, but it might not hurt to open up a new commoner family before opening up a new noble house.  

Hell, you don't even need to disband current organizations, just consider changing the focus of the PCs within those organizations.  Instead of stationing Kuraci in a Kurac stronghold, shuffle over a group of bad ass Kuraci regulars with dirty uniforms and grim under their nails to Red Storm to compete with a local gang of thugs and muls.  Instead of bringing in a group of super secret assassins of death every time someone scores a point against this unit of Kuraci, let them languish with limited resources while the merchant house focuses on more important thing elsewhere.  When they request a new kank, send an old crippled kank and say it is the best they can do for such a low priority.  Kurac might not care about one puny little gang causing them trouble so long as it doesn't get out of hand, but the few Kuraci struggling to keep things and check and keep the Kuraci larger organization from stepping in and handing out punishments might care.  We are still talking about Kurac, but the PCs are serving with a different view of conflict.  Instead of constantly training for that one big mission, they have constant small missions to take out a small threat.

The idea is to bring conflict down to a level where people care and can sustain it once the imms have all logged off.  It is very hard for commoner Joe to sustain the conflict around the dark orb of evil two months after the event.  Commoner Joe on the other hand is perfectly able to sustain the conflict over how he can't pay back his lone to a group of thugs.

[creeper386]

I've seen recently someone playing a tavern server, and have seen it before. I'd like small things just like this extended abit. Maybe have tavern 'bouncers' of sorts. Ussually a common occurance when things might get rowdy. Just having it so he doesn't get crim flagged while working in his own tavern would be nice. Would at least give some realism to the big loud discussions people have that just trail on because neither one wants to get crimflagged. At least if a PC bouncer is about. He can put an end to the problem. Either dealing with both of them or one or the other.

To myself, I think the taverns and such would have SOME sort of thing like that. Even in a military run city... It's good to have at least a minor form of control within your business and such. Heck, all the Merchant Family shops seem to have guards and such, but these large taverns don't have any sort of martial force? It's just odd. Let a few interested PCs have hold of it. Even if it takes coding some small clans for each tavern and giving them partial reign in the tavern. If the get too uppity I'm sure a report ot a local templar can handle it, but if they are just doing their job?

Eh. I think alot of the small time conflict, at least concerning PC to PC isn't neccessarily because people are in big organizations. But no matter what, rather a recruit or a 30 year old veteran these PCs have FULL backing of their clan. Too often you see Nobles taking offense because someone insulted someone they pay. Or nobles back a persons claim that someone calling them a 'kank fucker' is an insult to the whole clan. Or whatever it is. And honestly it's all pretty much bullshit. Even low ranking nobles have more to worry about then making sure their employees don't get insulted.

BULLSHIT! Gah! It's worse then autobowing.


Creeper will repeat himself and call it bullshit again if needed!

[Armaddict]

Now that's interesting.

What if business establishments were responsible for their own policing?  If they had a huge troublemaker who got away...he'd get reported to the authorities.  But within the tavern...the soldier would stay away.  The bouncer dictates when things are out of the control...it'd be more jobs for the common folk, so that not -everyone- is employed by the merchant/noble houses, and the people -trying- to play the commoner have more to resort to than the byn.

This reminds me of another thought I had...why do npc guards have to be so -buff-?  I mean...what's a PC guard good for if they're not even as good as your npc's?  And the PC guard you -do- have really doesn't have to worry...no one is insane enough to actually -try- something against that noble because his npc that's always with him is so damned good.  I think lowering the skills of your npc guards not only gives incentive to hire more PC's -and- gives those guards something to actually worry about, but opens up the way for -independent-, non-byn mercenary guards to hire themselves out.

Rich bastard says: "I'm a little worried things could get rowdy at the party...could you reach that fella I saw guarding so-and-so at the last one?  I've been hearing he's rather good, and his rates are not outrageous."  This also gives more value to house guards...they are a relatively sure bet on loyalty.  While this mercenary guard is very good, you worry about him being bought out by a competitor...but he's better than not having anyone.

Anyway, yeah.  This is all out of place, but I liked Creeper's idea

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

As did I. Creeper is odd, but at times, he poses great ideas. Adversely, I also like Rindan's view on things, and agree completely.

Here is another ticket to throw out into the hat. Wars are fought over something. I like the idea of the North and the South at war. What I would like to see is something that they are fighting for.

A great amount of water...perhaps the Northerners have a secret magick artifact that Tek has been searching for forever...whatever. There is something other than solely world-domination that these two have been fighting over for so fucking long.

[Supreme Allah]

As per the usual, I completely agree with Rindan and LoD. Unfortunately, very long and well-written posts like theirs tend to make mine redundant when I post after them. This leaves me with most of my GDB posts being, "Yeah, yeah, I agree with this guy".

But I'll give being productive a shot anyway:

I'd rather see more real commoners about than I do anybody from a House. As it is, it's kinda hard to even walk into a tavern without nearly every PC present being in a huge, powerful organization.

I'd write more, but frankly my opinions have already been stated by others.

[Edited after reading this quote:]

If you want to see the effect of a reduced crim-code, just try playing in the 'rinth. I've done it, when I come across another PC chances are about 10-1 that they will look at you (probably a quick eq buffness check) and then attack or backstab without a word. Sometimes they don't look first, maybe they mistook me for an NPC or used peek instead.

I'm not sure about your experiences in the 'rinth, but as someone who has played a few 'rinthers over the past year, I can only suggest that it may have just been a few poorly-played PCs, or just a passing trend of certain inexperienced players. Some of my experiences there have been absolutely amazing, which has quite easily kept me coming back for more. Try and give it a shot in more present times, AC. I think you may be pleasantly surprised.

LoD/Rindan yesman 4 life!

[EvilRoeSlade]

Dirr.  There is a derailment thread for a reason.  Use it or I will fuck you over with the chaotic insanity of Anarchy.

I think that Houses generally offer too little variety of conflict.  What we have is about ten clans that's differences from each other can be counted on one hand.  I want to see more regular commoners, who just don't have what it takes to be a noble's aide.  I think that a less severe crime-code would be a small step in the right direction.  I don't think that Allanak should become a duplicate of the rinth.  An analogy such as that is useless for what I'm trying to suggest.  I want something along the lines of having half as many NPC guards about the area from dusk to before dawn.  There's already a script in which NPC guards patrol a specific route.  Maybe some could be programmed to retreat to their barracks when night rolls around?  This wouldn't take away the need for stealth and skill, but it might just encourage a few people to prowl around and cause some havoc.  Maybe some people in favor of subtle plots that take months and years to see to fruition, but I'm not.  The only conflict that really hits the spot for me is the struggle to survive.  And I'd like a day to come where desert elves are just as reluctant to enter a city as city-dwellers are to enter the desert.

[Kalden]

The thing is that in Allanak, as the helpfile states, most commoners who are not in a house are trying to feed themselves through crime, and moving into the 'rinth. Maybe that's what the imms originally intended to happen, for Armageddon to have a real gritty feel to it, because right now, people live rich and easy in the Noble Houses and Merchant Houses.

And so it appeared to have been: with merchants murdered in the night and secret dealings in dark alleys, much of the Allanaki economy has moved underground, the result being that many more honest merchants have been driven out of business, and the general prosperity has declined. While the banning of spice was made many years ago now, its repercussions are still felt in the modern style of Allanaki trade.

I haven't really seen much of the Allanak economy moved underground, but if that's the intention, maybe there could be a bigger push towards it?

After all, how do you make money, if you're not from one of the Houses? You can either mine sid, hunt, or be a mercenary. Independent crafters get swallowed up, and they can't hardly afford to get off the ground, anyway.

[Delirium]

Independent crafters get swallowed up, and they can't hardly afford to get off the ground, anyway.

Or if they do, they're quickly assassinated by one of the Houses because suddenly, a small business run by one person is a major threat to the entire House. <snort>

Of course, if they're blatantly attempting to steal business.. that's another story.

[sacac]

so.. by those rules I should be dead in (Looking at watch)
5... 4... 3... oops.. they're early.. But That is pretty much how it is..